Adding Tin...

[BCB]

I just checked the price of tin on Rotometals website…

Am I correct in assuming that a bit (ounce) of tin added to wheel weights will help it flow a bit better?...

If so, would an ounce of pure tin in about 8 pounds of wheel weights help much at all or would it just be basically a waste of the pure metal. I know it would only amount to a small percentage of tin when combined with 8 pounds of wheel weights…

Advice needed before I might make the purchase…

Thanks…BCB

[bangerjim]

Check out the FREE alloy calculator spreadsheet available on here to get the amounts of alloys. Do a search.

~2% Sn is what I and a lot of others use very successfully. COWW's only have at best, 0.5% Sn. Many do not get goo fill out with that small amount. Some do.

Check out pewter for a source of Sn also.

0.1# PURE Sn will give you ~2% Sn for 8# COWW's.

If you are only dealing with 8#, you might just bite the boolits (so to speak) and buy some tin (lead-free) solder at the hardware store. Expensive, but very easy to add small amounts to only 8# of COWW's.

bangerjim

[BCB]

Check out the FREE alloy calculator spreadsheet available on here to get the amounts of alloys. Do a search.

~2% Sn is what I and a lot of others use very successfully. COWW's only have at best, 0.5% Sn. Many do not get goo fill out with that small amount. Some do.

Check out pewter for a source of Sn also.

0.1# PURE Sn will give you ~2% Sn for 8# COWW's.

If you are only dealing with 8#, you might just bite the boolits (so to speak) and buy some tin (lead-free) solder at the hardware store. Expensive, but very easy to add small amounts to only 8# of COWW's.

bangerjim

That's what I do now--the tin/antimony solder--95%/5%...

But, depending on the cost of shipping, I think the Rotometal price might be a bit less expensive if I purchase a couple of pounds. That would last me a few casting sessions as I cast about 8 pounds at one setting...

I am thinking the solder might be nearly $29/pound. But, without really checking, I am a bit uncertain of that price locally...

Thanks...BCB

[C. Latch]

Pewter is practically pure tin - not quite, but close enough for anything short of the most demanding shooting - and an ounce of pewter in 8# of alloy will give you ~0.8% extra tin, which, yes, is almost always enough to make your wheelweight alloy produce shinier bullets.

Personally I don't use extra tin or pewter in my purely plinking pistol bullets (38 special, 357, 45 acp, 45 colt) but do add it to hollowpoints of any sort, and rifle bullets.

I have cast muzzleloader bullets out of SOWW and with 1/2% pewter added they make much, MUCH prettier bullets than straight SOWW.


edit to add: the point of mentioning pewter is that you can buy it here, off the S&S forum, for cheaper than pure tin, and you may find it in a local thrift shop for even less.

[imashooter2]

Right now I see 3 guys selling solder in the S&S. Pewter comes up there on a regular basis as well. I would be in dire straits before I paid retail for virgin metal.

[JSnover]

I bought a load of Babbitt from a CB member a few years ago. I got it at a decent price and and it had been shot with an analyzer so I knew exactly what was in it. I try to shop here first. If that doesn't work hit the sponsors.
When you get your tin it might be wise to cut or pour it into uniform sizes so you can tune your alloy without a lot of crazy math. Mine has been converted to 1oz boolits using an old muzzle loader mold (thanks to another member).

[RogerDat]

Swapping and Selling pewter which is almost pure tin at $10 a lb. is a lot cheaper than pure virgin tin from rotometals. Gets cheaper still if you can find some pewter at the local thrift store, salvation army, or flea market. Might need to do some looking but can get that for $3 or $4 a lb. sometimes.

If your just sweetening some general cast any of the suggested sources would work.

[Larry Gibson]

BCB

The addition of tin to COWWs does a lot more than just making the alloy "flow better".

Your COWWs probably has somewhere around 2 - 2 1/2% antimony (Sb) in it and practically no tin (Sn). The addition of 2% tin will balance the Sb and Sn content and they will combine to form the sub metal SbSn. That sub metal will then mix very well into solution in the lead (Pb). Doing such will give a much better alloy than the simple sum of the parts. The BHN of the AC'd bullets after 10 days will be at least 12 but more than likely higher to as much as 15 BHN depending on the actual amount of Sb that was in the COWWs.

While adding 1 oz of tin to 8 lbs of COWWs might help a bit adding 2.5 oz would be better as that is basically 2%. You will end up with much better cast bullets all around.

Larry Gibson

[RogerDat]

BCB

The addition of tin to COWWs does a lot more than just making the alloy "flow better".........

.......While adding 1 oz of tin to 8 lbs of COWWs might help a bit adding 2.5 oz would be better as that is basically 2%. You will end up with much better cast bullets all around.

Larry Gibson

Everything Larry says agrees with the published information I have read on Pb/Sb/Sn alloys and the results I have seen in making alloys.

The one thing I would question is the concept of "better" bullets. As an alloy the balanced Sb/Sn at around 2% would be better alloy, would cast really well but could be considered extra expense for much of the plinking ammo folks make.

Another thread going is wondering about how well 98/1/1 would work. That discussion is just getting started, but since many folks cut WW's with plain 50/50 and would be working close to 98/1/1 it seems likely that the balanced but reduced Sb/Sn would work well for many uses while possibly saving some money. Worth watching that thread to see what members results have been. Works well at lowest cost could be best bullet for some folks uses.

[Larry Gibson]

RogerDat

I often recommend the COWWs + 2% tin be mixed at 50/50 with lead. It does indeed make a fine alloy for lower end bullets you mention w/o any muss or fuss. A 98/1/1 alloy is very close to the same. The OP was asking about "better fill out" which many times straight COWWs do not give even when mixed 50/50 with lead. The reason is the lack of tin balancing with the antimony in solution with the lead. When you balance the antimony with the tin you can mix the alloy with any % of lead up to 60% +/- and still end up with an excellent alloy.....a much better alloy than with COWWs + lead alone.

Additionally with the better alloy casting much better bullets you can WQ or HT for a higher level of application.

Larry Gibson

[R3104D3R]

Everything Larry says agrees with the published information I have read on Pb/Sb/Sn alloys and the results I have seen in making alloys.

The one thing I would question is the concept of "better" bullets. As an alloy the balanced Sb/Sn at around 2% would be better alloy, would cast really well but could be considered extra expense for much of the plinking ammo folks make.

Another thread going is wondering about how well 98/1/1 would work. That discussion is just getting started, but since many folks cut WW's with plain 50/50 and would be working close to 98/1/1 it seems likely that the balanced but reduced Sb/Sn would work well for many uses while possibly saving some money. Worth watching that thread to see what members results have been. Works well at lowest cost could be best bullet for some folks uses.

The only advantage to having a 98% Pb alloy, would be its sectional density for a slightly higher ballistic coefficient. 96% Pb is right in the magic zone, allowing you to control the hardness with heat treating to achieve 30+BHN if you want (without using too much Sb), and keeping the density high. 96% seems to work very well for all my boolits (except the lee slugs) and all velocities.

[jmort]

For me the magic zone is 94/3/3

[USSR]

The only advantage to having a 98% Pb alloy, would be its sectional density for a slightly higher ballistic coefficient.

No, an additional advantage is the ability of the bullet to obturate at low pressure/velocity. I intend to use just such an alloy for casting full wadcutters to be fired with small amounts of Bullseye powder.

Don

[Chill Wills]

RogerDat
I often recommend the COWWs + 2% tin be mixed at 50/50 with lead. It does indeed make a fine alloy for lower end bullets you mention w/o any muss or fuss. Larry Gibson

I agree! It does make a great alloy! I especially like it for plain base bullets, easy GC velocity as well as BPCR bullets that need to be hard enough to keep the nose from slumping. Its BPCR equivalent alloy in Sn-Pb is about 1-16 and is an exceedingly expensive mix for my tastes tho works quite well. The WW-Sn +1% will be my main alloy for target matches until my supply runs out and I will have to concoct the next alloy.

Maybe Lyman #2 cut with soft lead 40%-60%.

[BCB]

Well, it appears as though I maybe should just go the “spool of solder” route for all the more tin I might need as I am basically just shooting most of the cast boolits in handguns and as plinkers…

Years ago when I first got into casting, I really got into it and made my own Lyman #2, as well as other concoctions, and they worked great for some of the rifle loads and heavy handgun loads I was shooting. But now, most of my shooting is lower velocities and just shooting at cans etc. No need for phenomenally perfect boolits. But, I do like all the lube grooves to fill out nicely and a nice square base, unless gas checked...

Pewter might be another option for me also. But, where does the copper and other elements associated with pewter go during the melting process?...

Thanks…BCB

[R3104D3R]

No, an additional advantage is the ability of the bullet to obturate at low pressure/velocity. I intend to use just such an alloy for casting full wadcutters to be fired with small amounts of Bullseye powder.

Don

All air cooled alloys of 94% Pb or higher already do that.

[imashooter2]

-snip-
Pewter might be another option for me also. But, where does the copper and other elements associated with pewter go during the melting process?...

Thanks…BCB

They remain alloyed in the melt and in the percentages that we add tin to our alloys, they have a negligible effect. 2% pewter containing 2% copper gives you just .04% copper in the final alloy. Very similar to using 95-5 lead free solder at a fraction of the cost.

[USSR]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by USSR http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3092340#post3092340)
No, an additional advantage is the ability of the bullet to obturate at low pressure/velocity. I intend to use just such an alloy for casting full wadcutters to be fired with small amounts of Bullseye powder.

Don



All air cooled alloys of 94% Pb or higher already do that.

Sorry, but an alloy with 98% Pb is going to obturate at a lower pressure level than a 94% Pb alloy.

Don

[Side by Side]

Purchased the tin popcorn, works great

[R3104D3R]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by USSR http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3092340#post3092340)
No, an additional advantage is the ability of the bullet to obturate at low pressure/velocity. I intend to use just such an alloy for casting full wadcutters to be fired with small amounts of Bullseye powder.

Don




Sorry, but an alloy with 98% Pb is going to obturate at a lower pressure level than a 94% Pb alloy.

Don

Why apologize? I'm not incorrect, they all obturate at low pressures. Splitting hairs, then yes at an even "lower" pressure purer lead will obturate better. This wasn't the point. 94/4/2 air cooled will obturate well enough in a 1911/45. It's called intellectual honesty.

[RogerDat]

I figured that 98/1/1 would yield just about 10 BHN so for low velocity pistol it would stretch 35 lbs. of COWW's with 65 lb. of plain. And only require 1 lb. of pewter to get 100 lbs. of alloy. Plain lead is easier to come by in quantity from the scrap yard in my case so if it would work for what I was shooting it would certainly be worth a shot (pun intended) if it did not lead I would use it for plinking ammo to stretch my COWW supply. Over in Wheel Guns and Hand Cannons another member says it is what he uses for wad cutters.

The goal or target for my stash is to be able to make one big batch of 94/3/3 if it was all melted together. So as I get more of one thing I look a little harder or put more money into what it would take to build back to that ratio. Figure there is not much one can't cast from that or it could be thinned with some more readily available (and cheaper if bought commercial) plain lead.

Last time I checked it would take about 70 lbs. of Lino to get me back to that 94/3/3 ratio or some antimony rich alloy and all my tin alloy stash but have scored a little pewter and some WW's since then :-)

Not suggesting that 98/1/1 is in any way a better alloy but might stretch ones supply with acceptable results. Have to make some and try it in something like 45 LC rn and 38 swc just to see if it works well enough for my low velocity loads. Yet another thing to try <sigh>.

[boho]

If you live in a small town like I do, check your local radiator shop and ask about their solder drippings. Its usually 60/40 and you may get 5lbs for a six pack or fishing weights.

[RogerDat]

This was the discussion on low Sb/Sn alloy.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265757-Low-Tin-Antimony-Alloys

[USSR]

I figured that 98/1/1 would yield just about 10 BHN so for low velocity pistol it would stretch 35 lbs. of COWW's with 65 lb. of plain. And only require 1 lb. of pewter to get 100 lbs. of alloy.

Not suggesting that 98/1/1 is in any way a better alloy but might stretch ones supply with acceptable results. Have to make some and try it in something like 45 LC rn and 38 swc just to see if it works well enough for my low velocity loads.

For the low pressure cartridges you mentioned, that alloy will work just fine. Guys seem to get all wrapped up with bullet hardness, especially when you've got all the commercial bullet casters advertising their bullets at 12 to 18 BHN. When E.K. developed the .44 Magnum, he used 11 BHN bullets and called them hard.

Don

[fredj338]

Well, it appears as though I maybe should just go the “spool of solder” route for all the more tin I might need as I am basically just shooting most of the cast boolits in handguns and as plinkers…


Thanks…BCB
I bought some tin bars from Roto a couple years ago. I just weighed the bars, measure the length, then drew lines on them with a Sharpie in 1oz segments. Stick the bar in the pot until it melts to the line. Not 100% exact, but close enough. I don't usally add tin for plinking bullets, but use it for hunting bullets made 20-1 or 25-1 for LHP.

[Tenbender]

Got to watch commercial vendors ! I thought about buying some 452-250 gr. boolits on Gunbroker. Very good price and advertised BHN of 15. I contacted the seller and he sent samples. They checked 8 BHN ? I will wait a couple weeks and check again. They could of been fresh made and will harden up.