Lead bullets vs Jacketed bullets

[VEARL]

I shoot 230 gr. hard cast lead bullets ( wheel weights) and preparing to shoot some 230 gr. Hornaday HP XTP bullets. Both bullets have the same 2F Black Powder load (100gr.) with same MMP Sabot.
For deer hunting purposes, I was wonder which bullet would be the better to use. Maximum shots taken at deer around here is 100 yds.
Was again wondering how each would perform in harvesting deer, ie energy transfer, complete pass thru, etc.
So if anyone has info on hunting with one or both, your help would be grateful.

[idahoron]

The Hornady is doing to mushroom and give a wider wound channel. The hard lead is going to poke a hole. A DEEP hole. Ron

[waksupi]

Skip the HP.

[Dhammer]

I love the xtp's/MMP combo in my savage ml (I'm using modern powder though, never connected with a deer with my black powder ml and haven't used anything else in my savage FYI).

But the xtp for me has just crumpled the deer in their tracks from 15 yard shots to 150 yard shots.. Its surreal, like a freight train taking em off their legs. I realize its more then just the round, but unless I'm forced to use a different round or powder because of regs, I won't be changing. I prefer taking my savage ml out over my slug gun the last few years for slug season.
Bottom line I'd give em a try before I said yeah or nay and see how they patterned.. I was lucky and new a few guys who spent a lot of money trying powder and bullet combos in the savage's when they first came out. All three ended up using same powder( same exact charge) MMP sabot and 230 grain xtp's. I had been trying the BT version of the xtp in my other muzzleloader which no matter type of bullet or ball I tired it never grouped well. Thompson had a bad one leave the factory my guess, reminds me of the old smooth bore slug gun and if one could put 3 holes on a paper plate at 50 yards it was gtg. My Thompson is more like 2 out of 3 sadly. So, it saw limited use since originally our ML tags were all but impssoble to draw if you drew slug tags too and no way was I giving up slug season with ML I had back then.

My Savage hated the XTP Bt's. Which I would have thought would have been the more accurate ones but didn't end up that way for me.

[idahoron]

This is a 200 gr XTP shot out of my 45 auto. This bullet was shot at a Subaru car door. It went through it through a denim pant leg through a flannel shirt stuffed into the leg. It exited and was found in the dirt on the other side. If I shot sabots I would use XTP's. Ron

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Pistol%20pics/bullet1.jpg

[NSB]

I've shot quite a few deer with muzzle loaders over the last forty-five years. I've shot them with round balls, conicals, and XTPs. The all kill. The round balls are the ones I'd recommend the least. Poor penetration but I've killed deer with them. Conicals or XTPs will both easily kill deer and the arguement over which kills them deader is getting pretty lame. Now days I use an inline, a Savage ML2, and I can tell you the XTPs are excellent bullets for killing deer. I've also killed somewhere around fifty with the .357 using mostly XTPs over many years while hunting in several different states. They work very,very well. If it were my gun, I'd be a lot more concerned about which one shot the best and use it.

[waksupi]

The old timers knew if a round ball wasn't doing the job, go up in caliber.

[Lead Fred]

100grs out of a 45 cal, what a waste of powder

[NSB]

100grs out of a 45 cal, what a waste of powder
Actually 127 grains. The 50cal gets you up to 175 which is what I'd call "adequate" but still not my first choice. Any conical will work better. A 45 conical is actually better than a 50cal round ball.

[VEARL]

idahoron,
I think Iwill shoot the cast lead bullets at varmits and targets The jacketed bullets I will use for deer hunting.
Am happy that both types have the same POI.
Both my CVA Wolf and Optima like this load.
Thanks again to everyone for your input in answering my question.

[johnson1942]

waksupi is right is you want to stick with roundballs. move up a cal or two. my .50 roundballs dropped any deer or antelope i ever shot at with one round. ive since gone to paperpatch bullets and faster twist but i still have to place my shots carefully. you can put a big hole through a lung and loose a deer in real ruff country and at dusk. placeing a shot is very important.

[Motor]

The Hornady is doing to mushroom and give a wider wound channel. The hard lead is going to poke a hole. A DEEP hole. Ron

Short and to the point. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The KEY words here are "HARD CAST" I'd call anything above 15bhn hard cast and agree that at the velocity 100gr FFG will drive it that it will simply shoot through a deer without expanding. If it hits solid bone, that's another factor.

I dressed out a doe 2 weeks ago that was shot with a Lee 50cal. 250gr REAL that was 14bhn. The velocity was around 1100 f/s. The boolit entered just in front of the shoulder and exited right behind the far shoulder. The hole was .500"in and .500" out. Luckly it went through the heart.

VEARL, I would either find a softer cast boolit or use the Hornadys.

Motor

[dondiego]

0.500 in and 0.500 out sounds pretty deadly.

[Motor]

0.500 in and 0.500 out sounds pretty deadly.

Also means ZERO EXPANTION !!! The next time I cast these they will be a bit softer.

Motor

[rodwha]

230 grn XTP's would be meant for the .45 ACP, right? That's not going to handle the high velocity. There's a fellow who used a 250 grn XTP for the .45 Colt and it blew apart and didn't penetrate. He had to put it down with his pistol.

You'll need a bullet designed for the speed if you are using a jacketed bullet.

[NSB]

230 grn XTP's would be meant for the .45 ACP, right? That's not going to handle the high velocity. There's a fellow who used a 250 grn XTP for the .45 Colt and it blew apart and didn't penetrate. He had to put it down with his pistol.

You'll need a bullet designed for the speed if you are using a jacketed bullet.
You'd better go over to one of the other boards and tell the guys shooting smokeless muzzle loaders that they can't use those bullets. They're shooting them at around 2600fps and killing lots of deer with them. I've shot over a dozen with XTPs and all of them died quickly. I also got most of the bullets back and they mushroomed very nicely and didn't come apart. I was getting around 2400fps out of my Savage ML2 with smokeless powder. Opinions are worthless for advice. Experience is invaluable. Also, one isn't a statistic. It's just one data point and means nothing.

[rodwha]

I've never used them so cannot say. I've seen the one guy who did with poor results.

Hornady has a guide that shows the parameter for the velocity they are designed for, and the velocity is well above what Hornady designed in the .45 ACP/Colt bullets.

Looking at Hornady's site I see the 230 grn XTP actually goes up to 1650 fps, which is quite surprising. The 250 grn XTP is rated to 1600 fps, which I'm surprised is lower than the .45 ACP bullet.

[NSB]

I've never used them so cannot say. I've seen the one guy who did with poor results.

Hornady has a guide that shows the parameter for the velocity they are designed for, and the velocity is well above what Hornady designed in the .45 ACP/Colt bullets.

Looking at Hornady's site I see the 230 grn XTP actually goes up to 1650 fps, which is quite surprising. The 250 grn XTP is rated to 1600 fps, which I'm surprised is lower than the .45 ACP bullet.
You are correct in what you say you read. Hornady does say that. The thing is though, they are holding up pretty well at the higher velocities. There are a pretty good number of guys using them and I haven't heard of an actual case where they failed and I've used them successfully myself at pretty high velocity. Sorry if I came across a little abrupt on this. I keep having people tell me I can't use them and I've been using them without any problems at all. They are really mushroomed when recovered but still retain most of their weight when checked. They may shatter when hitting steel or something but on flesh and blood they're doing a pretty good job. Maybe Hornady just wants to promote their other 45cal muzzle loading bullets and give this advice to steer you in that direction?

[rodwha]

100 grns of 2F Pyrodex with a 240 grn XTP gives 1719 fps. 100 grns of 2F T7 shows 1883 fps, which would likely increase a bit with the lighter bullet. Being that it's rated to 1650 fps it wouldn't likely hold up well at close range, which is precisely what happened to the fellow I mentioned. He got virtually no penetration as it exploded on the shoulder.

[rodwha]

"Sorry if I came across a little abrupt on this. I keep having people tell me I can't use them..."

I know what you mean. I've seen the same thing with handgun hunting, and cap and ball pistols being able to replicate a .45 Colt load. Too many erroneously stating that they are no more powerful than a .38 when that's only true if weaker type powders are used.

[rodwha]

Maybe his bullet disintegrated due to hitting the shoulder bones.

I've been considering trying some of my cast 285 grn WFN bullets meant for my Ruger Old Army. They drop at .456" so I'm uncertain if they'd work in a .458 X .50 cal sabot. If not I'd need to resize them.

But then I bought a 250 and 320 grn .50 cal Lee REAL mold.

[idahoron]

This is the shoulder from an adult elk. The bullet was found in the flank. The bullet was a cast Lee 500 S&W bullet paper patched and sized to fit. They are about 6 yo 7 BHN and this was the first one I found. All the rest blew through shoulds or not.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/2013%20elk%20hunt/shoulder_zpsc03465bf.jpg


http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/2013%20elk%20hunt/BULLET_zps8e122379.jpg


http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/2013%20elk%20hunt/Cow4_zpsb1a1b180.jpg

[jcren]

Hornady xtp is an extremely reliable bullet. I use them for home defense, I have recovered them after passing through several mediums, both living and not. The one I recovered at the end of a 3 ft trench behind a large raccoon looked exactly like the one I sabot loaded in a 50 ml that went from chest to rt hip in a whitetail buck..... 0.70 inches and over 80% weight retention. I have also slammed deer with buffalo bullets and mini balls, but these are much softer, nearly pure lead + tin

[rodwha]

I trusted XTP's in my .44 Mag and .45 ACP. They are an excellent bullet, especially for the price.

As I said I have no experience shooting them through a muzzleloader, and only have the one story of one that failed.

[rodwha]

That's one nasty wound there Idaho!

[idahoron]

It is a nasty one. You can see that the main bone is crushed.
That elk was 200 yards out. I was behind the only bush on the top of this ridge. I cupped my hands like they were ears and looked over the bush. Here she comes, so I got down put my gun on my bipod and got ready. At 60 yards she stopped and I had the front quartering shot. At the hit she almost went down. She was hot with almost 1600 foot pounds of energy. I know that round ball guys say muzzleloaders don't hit with "foot pounds of energy" they say that a PRB kills like a arrows broadhead. If they could have seen this large cow almost thrown to the ground by the bullet they would have thought different. She stayed on her feet and went maybe 20 yards and piled up. A 460 gr bullet slightly hardened pounds game. Ron

[VEARL]

Came to the conclusion that a soft lead cast bullet would be better than one cast from harder lead.
So early this morning I casted approx: 400 of them. The hard ones I will still shoot at targets and the soft lead ones at coyotes and such varmits.
Thanks everyone for your input.

[Motor]

Came to the conclusion that a soft lead cast bullet would be better than one cast from harder lead.
So early this morning I casted approx: 400 of them. The hard ones I will still shoot at targets and the soft lead ones at coyotes and such varmits.
Thanks everyone for your input.

VEARL, Sounds like a VERY GOOD PLAN !!!

Motor

[idahoron]

Adding a pinch of hardness is good when working up a load. But you have to be able to repeat the process. I use a hardness tester when I do it and have had good luck. Ron

[Geezer in NH]

The old timers knew if a round ball wasn't doing the job, go up in caliber.
Agree jw do not fit fit IMHO