Question on Taper crimp dies

[wv109323]

It looks like I will need to taper crimp my 9MM loads for my application. My question is will a taper crimp resize or compress the bullet that extends about 1/16" beyond the mouth of the case. Mt situation is using a Lee 125 RNFP that is sized at .3565.
It would depend on the length and angle of the crimp within the die and the diameter of the boolit.. Can anyone comment on their actual experience?
Lee says there is no taper crimp die needed with their dies of 1986 vintage or later. How do you identify these dies? Is it the collet crimp dies?
Thanks

[mtgrs737]

I wouldn't think that a taper crimp die would touch anything but the case mouth area of the cartridge. The taper crimp die should only squeeze a small section of the case mouth inward a very small amount if it is adjusted right due to the fact that the 9mm cartridge headspaces on the case mouth. So very little of the case mouth should be squeezed in or the brass case mouth will slip past the counterbore and into the throat of the barrel. Personally on my loads I only want the crimping part of the die to move the brass that was slightly belled or flared for boolit seating back to be parallel to the sides of the boolet and not actually crimp the case mouth into the boolit sides. I rely on the case neck tension to hold the boolit from being pushed back into the case during feeding. This method does require that you have the correct expander ball diameter installed in your size die. I check to make sure I have a tight fit by pressing the loaded round, boolit first against the loading bench to see if the boolit moves deeper into the case which on the 9mm can cause excessive pressures. Also, I crimp in a separate operation from boolit seating or sometimes lead will be shaved or boolits distorted. I can't comment on the Lee dies, but a quick note or a call to them will get you an answer I would bet.

[str8wal]

A proper taper crimp die won't come anywhere near the bullet.

[jmort]

"Is it the collet crimp dies?"

No. I would get the Redding Profile Taper Crimp die for cast and use the Lee FCD for jacketed. You do not need a separate crimp die but I agree with crimping in a separate step.

[r1kk1]

This method does require that you have the correct expander ball diameter installed in your size die.

What die set are you using where the sizing die for a 9mm contains an expander ball? Is this a very old die? On my pistol sets the 2nd die expands the case neck.

To the OP, if you have a three die set it should contain a sizing die with decapper, an expanding die that can be a powder through design or not and a combination bullet seater/crimp die. If you have a fourth die, generally its a crimp die.

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/taper-crimp-die/

Take care

r1kk1

[bobthenailer]

I taper all semi auto rounds weather im using jacketed or cast bullets and even up to .358 dia boolets in the 9mm you will have to back off the adj of the taper crimp die if set up for bullets of smaller dia.

I also sometimes use a taper crimp on low velocity( up to 900 fps) in revolver round's in 38, 357, 44 and 45 caliber revolvers.

[Sticky]

Your crimp die will only affect the case at the crimping point, so you have no worries there. I have mostly loaded jwords for pistol and use the Lee factory seating/roll crimp die, but it looks like I may investigate getting a Lee carbide taper crimp for my 45acp loads as I do more research. Still new to the casting game and soaking up the info here.. lol

Most of my handgun loads are for revolvers, save the 45acp.

I use the Lee FCD for autoloading rifles and no crimp on bolt rifle cartridges (only neck size those).

[DR Owl Creek]

As said above, a taper crimp die won't touch the bullet. A taper crimp die is the proper tool to use for any cartridge used in a semi-auto (e.g. 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, etc.). The Hornady 9th Edition manual says to use "little to no crimp". The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition says a "modest taper crimp can be used".

I use a taper crimp on all of mine, and they work very well. The taper crimp should be applied in a separate step after you seat the bullet. I would recommend that you measure the diameter of a sized 9mm case right at the case mouth. It should measure about .380". I crimp all of mine about .002" to .003" less than that measured size. I consider this to be a "light" crimp. For a 9mm, this should work out to be about .377" to .378". Measure yours to see what size your sized cases are, and use that dimension to start from.

There's a really good "sticky" in the Wheelguns, Pistols, and Handcannons forum on loading for the 9mm. If you haven't seen it, check it out: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

Good luck.

Dave

[oldfart1956]

wv109323 as luck would have it I'm using exactly that boolit and at the same size. Had to size it down to use in a 1911 in 9mm. since it doesn't have much of a throat. Also, since I'm using a Lee Pro-1000 (only 3 places to put dies) seating and crimping in 2 operations is not an option. Unless I wanted to resize/de-prime off-press...which I don't. I have the Lee 4 die set, which includes the fcd die. I'm not using the fcd die for this press but find it works perfectly when properly adjusted in the 4 hole turret press. Here's what I do; install the dies as normal, #1 resize/de-prime, #2 expand/powder thru. #3 seat/crimp. The tricky part is adjusting the #3 die until it seats and crimps without crimping too soon. It takes a few adjustments but works just fine. Seat a boolit to the length you want then back out the seater and make the needed adjustments to the crimp part of the die. I'll tell you right now the Lee die will do a full roll crimp if over tightened. I snugged down the die until I couldn't push the boolit into the case. (which might cause an overpressure round) My crimp is...quite generous. In theory the rounds headspace on the chamber...but in reality if you measure a few cases and then the depth of the chamber...that ain't gonna happen. At least not in my 1911. One more tip, pull the actual seater out of the seat/crimp die and file off the concave area. Make it flat. It works much better and less fluctuations in o.a.l. Audie...the Oldfart..

[MtGun44]

A taper crimp die crimping the case into a boolit without a crimp groove, which is usually
the case for semi-auto boolits, will very slightly force the case to bite into the boolit over
about .030 of the front of the case. Some folks insist that "just removing the flare" is the
way to go. I always want to slightly bite into the boolit, about .004 to .005.

Crimping into a crimp groove will not deform the boolit.

Bill

[noylj]

Unless it is a really new die, there is no such thing as a Redding Profile Crimp die for taper crimping—they are all roll crimp dies.
Just get ANY taper crimp die. They all work the same. Lee is the cheapest (and I don't mean the FCD).
If there was a problem, someone would have complained in the last 30-80 years. I use 0.358" bullets in 9x19 and have no problems.

[Char-Gar]

Unless it is a really new die, there is no such thing as a Redding Profile Crimp die for taper crimping—they are all roll crimp dies.
Just get ANY taper crimp die. They all work the same. Lee is the cheapest (and I don't mean the FCD).
If there was a problem, someone would have complained in the last 30-80 years. I use 0.358" bullets in 9x19 and have no problems.

The Redding Profile crimp die is a different approach producing a roll and taper hybred crimp.

[mdi]

I believe Char-Gar is correct, the Profile Crimp Die produced a different crimp than either the roll crimp or the taper crimp, kinda a "combination" crimp. My revolver ammo is exclusively Profile Crimped, and works quite well on my "wrist breaking" recoiling magnums...

[seagiant]

A taper crimp die crimping the case into a boolit without a crimp groove, which is usually
the case for semi-auto boolits, will very slightly force the case to bite into the boolit over
about .030 of the front of the case. Some folks insist that "just removing the flare" is the
way to go. I always want to slightly bite into the boolit, about .004 to .005.

Crimping into a crimp groove will not deform the boolit.

Bill

Hi,
Yes! +1 ALWAYS taper crimp ANY ACP type cartridge! Always use a real TC die as a 4th operation!

[Char-Gar]

Hi,
Yes! +1 ALWAYS taper crimp ANY ACP type cartridge! Always use a real TC die as a 4th operation!

LIKE and AMEN!

[wv109323]

r1kk1
You ask what dies I am using.
The dies are Lee on a Dillon 550B press. 1st station is resize and deprimw. Second is neck size and bell using the Dillon powder funnel. Third is seat and crimp. My dies are old enough that I do not have the FCD die. I will add a taper crimp as a fourth station.

[r1kk1]

r1kk1
You ask what dies I am using.
The dies are Lee on a Dillon 550B press. 1st station is resize and deprimw. Second is neck size and bell using the Dillon powder funnel. Third is seat and crimp. My dies are old enough that I do not have the FCD die. I will add a taper crimp as a fourth station.

That will work. Are you placing the lockring on the underside of the toolhead?

Take care

r1kk1

[mdi]

r1kk1
You ask what dies I am using.
The dies are Lee on a Dillon 550B press. 1st station is resize and deprimw. Second is neck size and bell using the Dillon powder funnel. Third is seat and crimp. My dies are old enough that I do not have the FCD die. I will add a taper crimp as a fourth station.

For my info.? How does a die neck size and flare the case mouth at the same time? If the die sizes the neck, how does it flare the mouth in one die? Or is it an expanding die with a flaring application built in?

[wv109323]

I use the lock ring on top.
mdi,
i am confused. There is carbide sizing die and deprime at station one. The next station is the Dillon powder funnel. The powder funnel is case activated and the powder is dispensed. The powder funnel expands the case to the right diameter for the boolit and the applies a flare or bell at the mouth of the case. These are straight wall pistol cases and not bottleneck rifle cases. The next station is bullet seating and crimp. Or the crimp can be applied at station four.

[bedbugbilly]

i use the Lee FCD on my 9mm and all I load is cast - never had a problem with it doing anything but crimping the case where it should if adjusted the way it should be.

As far as a taper crimp die - I load 38 Colt short & long and on those, I use a standard steel 9mm taper crimp on it to just iron our the case mouth bell from expanding and seating - it works great on that as well as all it does is take care of the case - no swaging of the lead boolit at all.

[ballistim]

i use the Lee FCD on my 9mm and all I load is cast - never had a problem with it doing anything but crimping the case where it should if adjusted the way it should .

I do the same, only shoot cast, works like a charm in my M9.

[Safeshot]

The Lee taper crimp (of recent manufacture) is NOT a taper crimp die! It is a "kind of combination taper and smooth roll crimp die", somewhat like the profile crimp dies. The literature that comes with the "Taper Crimp Die" clearly states this. It will form everything from a "light taper crimp" to a "firmer taper crimp" through a taper/light roll crimp" to a "heavy roll crimp". If roll crimped into a crimping groove it will not cause any problems. the taper crimp portion of the die will not adversely affect or "size down" the cast lead bullet. You can adjust it any way you want to get what ever crimp you want. It is explained in the literature that comes with the "Taper Crimp Die". I do not know if it is explained in the literature that comes in the "complete die sets". I use the Lee Taper Crimp Die for .44 cast bullets and like it. I think that it could be better "Named" to indicate what type of die it "Really" is. It is NOTHING like the Lee FCD with the carbide sizing ring. Hope this helps someone.

[mdi]

I use the lock ring on top.
mdi,
i am confused. There is carbide sizing die and deprime at station one. The next station is the Dillon powder funnel. The powder funnel is case activated and the powder is dispensed. The powder funnel expands the case to the right diameter for the boolit and the applies a flare or bell at the mouth of the case. These are straight wall pistol cases and not bottleneck rifle cases. The next station is bullet seating and crimp. Or the crimp can be applied at station four.
I read the 4th sentence in the post I quoted.
Second is neck size and bell using the Dillon powder funnel. So, does the Dillon die somehow size the neck and flare the case mouth? Or is the die just a powder through mouth flaring die?

[r1kk1]

No, the 1st die sizes/decaps, 2nd expands/flares and drops powder with Dillon.


take care

r1kk1

[mdi]

No, the 1st die sizes/decaps, 2nd expands/flares and drops powder with Dillon.


take care

r1kk1

That's what I was getting at...:lol: Sounded like the poster was confused.

[r1kk1]

That's what I was getting at...:lol: Sounded like the poster was confused.

Yeah, looking back I didn't catch that. You did!

take care

r1kk1