25-20 W/o Gc.

[Rimfire]

When shooting a GC bullet (257312) ,is it better to use a soft bullet,or a hard bullet.
Fast or slow burning powder. I'm looking for a cheap plinking load for my 25-20.

[runfiverun]

look in the lyman manual

[7-30 Waters]

A bullet cast from wheel weights would be just fine. A buddy of mine prefers the RCBS plain base cowboy bullet. He also uses a small tuft of dacron fiber to hold the powder in place. The dacron is fluffed by pulling it apart and then using a small tipped screw driver to push it into the case. All dacron is meant to do is take up space and hold the powder against the primer.

You could also try vegetable fiber wad instead of dacron. Acts like a gas check. See link to Accurate Powder website for 25-20 Win. Cowboy action data. Nice plinker loads


http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/CowboyAction/2520WCFpage156.pdf

[Bret4207]

At low velocity softer is ALMOST always better. Each gun is a law unto itself and some just like harder alloys. As for the GC there are some designs that work good w/o it, some need it, some respond well to the various other tricks like dacron, filler etc. Experiment a bit, find what works for you and let us know.

I prefer GC in my 25/20's but would enjoy finding a checkless design that works. I have a 6 banger PB 25 DJ GB that still hasn't been wrung out and I think the buy was about 4 years ago!

[9.3X62AL]

I have about 300 emptied-out 25-20 casings that await re-fill at present. The bulk of that lot will get tried with the RCBS 85 CB, and some 250 Savage cases might get a test lot too. A checkless boolit that shoots well--and doesn't bounce back from the target cardboard--would satisfy my cheepness reflexes in no small way. 22-25 caliber gaschecks are a PITA to handle.......I'll do it if it means accuracy, but I would prefer spinal taps or a root canal if the truth be told.

[jlchucker]

Rimfire, I used to use the 257420 bullet, with gascheck, cast from a mixture of wheelweights and pure lead--ratio of about 9 to 1. Javalina alox, and 5.0 gr Unique. I never tried it without the gascheck, but that fiber wad idea posted by 7-30 Waters sounds promising. Try this bullet without a gascheck and see what happens. At the very worst you'll get an unacceptable group--but maybe not.

[mroliver77]

It is prolly all in my head but I think my way helps. I use a hard lube and size/lube in a Lyman 450. I fill the gascheck shank with lube and the finished boolit has the shape of a complete boolit with check. Now these keep the boolit base in the case neck so lube is only hit by gasses from the bottom. These seem to shoot better than just TL ones with no check. I just mentioned this on another thread that I need to test this to see if my instincts are telling me the truth. I have used the "soft check" wax wads and know they work well and I figure my checkless check should basically do the same. It wont be long and I can test till I puke!
J

[Rimfire]

I was wondering if the rear of the bullet would be "bumped" up by a fast powder. I used to load a 310 cadet with a heeled bullet cast of WW metal, and it would expand filling the bore, and gave ext. accuracy using 4.5 to 5gr of unique. Sort of like a 22 rimfire I guess.

[beemer]

I also use the Lyman 257312 for my 25-20. It is a Savage 23 with a old 4X Weaver scope. My load is 6.5 gr. of AA#9, WW small rifle primers and the 257312 cast from wheel weights with allox lube. The boolits pour at .259 and are ran through a 450 but only lubed, not sized. The boolit is seated to touch the rifling. I don't use a fller with this load.It seems to make no difference whether I use a GC or not. The load shoots 2'' or less at 100 yds and vel. is about 1450 fps.

I bought a RCBS 85 CB mould but my rifle just didn't like it. My shoot'in buddy had the Lyman but his rifle wouldn't shoot it. We swapped now both of us and the rifles are happy. You just never know what works best.

These little rifles can be sensitive to the loads you use. When working up loads change charges no more than 2 tenths at a time. I have ran past the sweet spot more than once.
The 257312 is discontinued mould,I haven't seen many around here.I have two, one pours
.259 and the other is a little smaller at about .257.

What kind of rifle do you have? Mine is one of my favorites, everyone that shoots it wants to take it home.

beemer

[Rimfire]

My 25-20 is a Marlin 1894CL. Shoots great with J bullets but the cost is to high for a lot of plinking.

[26Charlie]

Seems to be the old standby .25-20 bullet. IIRC my load is 9.5 gr 4227 with this bullet. with regard to a dacron filler, this case is so small there is no way any powder charge is going to be too far from the primer. My recommendation is no filler. Any load you come up with that hits a 2" or less group at 50 yd. will do just about what you want in the .25-20 - plink things, kill a squirrel, fox, or coyote. If your game is larger or farther away, well, there are the .30 calibers.

[35remington]

Okay, we'll all have an opportunity to put our oar in this one.

Rimfire, if I recall correctly, the Marlin has a relatively slow rifling twist and will not care for the 257312 at relatively low plinking velocties. You might want to check the twist and report back on that one. It may be that another bullet in plainbase will suit you better. With gaschecks costing what they do, it is my opinion that no cheap plinking bullet carries a gascheck. I belive NEI has an 85 grain plainbase design that may fit the bill for you, but it also might be better at low velocities if it was shorter.

Whether the bullet bumps up or not depends upon how hard it is and how much pressure you're running. The RCBS Cowboy mentioned bumps up at very low pressure if the large lubricant grooves are not filled; excessively so with many loads and as cast wheelweights or softer. If your bullets are cast very soft they'll bump up with all but the lightest loads.

Velocity swings in the .25-20 are VERY noticeable with powders such as 4227 and 2400 in mild loads if powder position is allowed to vary from the front to the back of the case. Others are better, such as most shotgun/pistol primers and 'Lilgun, for instance, but I don't run 'Lilgun anywhere near as slow as the others. Just reality. Check for this and if it occurs you have options to minimize it.

I have the PB GB bullet Bret mentions and it is a fine plinking bullet, in my opinion more suited for this use than the 257312 would be in your Marlin, good bullet that it is otherwise. I myself would count my blessings that I owned a 257312, reserve it for mid to high velocity use and look for a plainbase.

This site has many .25 caliber fans and I would not rule out a group buy if you cannot find what you want if you're willing to wait for the startup of another one sometime. I have three group buy designs in .25. I am pondering an RCBS Cowboy bullet with smaller lube grooves to avoid overlubrication at moderate velocities, and another identical to the first with the addition of a gascheck shank for high velocities.

[Rimfire]

I think the 1894CL has a 1 in 14 twist, a little slow for long bullets. Going to exp. with some win 230 powder I was given,it is the fastest I have. I'll keep trying till an acceptable load is found or a PB mold comes my way.

[26Charlie]

This thread got me to try to make a squirrel load for the Marlin 1894CL (4x scope), so I loaded the NEI 75 gr. FP GC bullet and the RCBS 25-85-CB Cowboy FP PB bullet with three grains of Red Dot, and tried them off the back porch at 35 yards.
The 75 gr. NEI bullet made round holes with a central tendency for grouping, about the size of a 50-ft. smallbore black.
The RCBS 85 gr. bullets were all tipped severely, and the group was half again as big. I just don't think that bullet is well balanced; the meplat seems too large and the grease grooves too deep.

[35remington]

26 Charlie, let me impart some of my knowledge of the RCBS 85 flatpoint. It is a flawed bullet, but if you know its limitations it is possible to get it to group well.

Firstly, do not fill the lube grooves with lubricant, as this tends to open groups. At moderate velocities that you are shooting the bullet is overlubricated, being originally intended for black powder. If the bullet is tumble lubed with a light coat of LLA accuracy is better, but another dilemma rears its head, which is bullet deformation due to obturation and collapse of the big lube grooves which rather weaken the bullet and cause it to bump up with all but extremely mild loads. This does not help bullet balance at all.

Best option is to water quench from a thoroughly hot mould or oven harden, hopefully to obtain 21 BHN or more. An average heat treat in the oven gets 27 BHN for me. Coat lightly with LLA or Johnson's Paste Wax, and have another go. From my OTT Contender barrel I can average around .9 inch at fifty yards consistently, without fliers causing group enlargement. Groups are consistently round. Load is 3-3.3 grains W231 depending upon lot to obtain 1110-1150 fps. I tend to favor this load due to good metering of the powder and mild report. Red Dot and Unique can equal it at the same velocities, but the small cavities in powder measures may throw the occasional light charge due to bridging of the relatively large flakes of these powders. When weighed they provide good accuracy, but I load semi-progressively in large volume at a time, so 231 gets the nod. The catch is my .25-20 barrels have all been 1-10. I do use dacron with this load and feel it offers benefits, but you may choose not to.

Due to your relatively slow twist the aformentioned load may not work well. The tipping you have may be a clue. In that case I recommend trying 5.5 of 2400 or 6.3-6.5 of 4227 to up the velocity and stabilization of the bullet. These charges provide good accuracy with many other bullets as well and are as universal a prescription as I have found in two .25-20 barrels that possessed three different throat configurations (throated one myself after Cerrosafe revealed a horrible chamber). I suggest dacron with these loads employed properly as velocity swings are noticeable from varying powder position. This also helps eliminate gascutting. Most important is that I can average under 1 inch for ten shot groups at fifty yards and .70-.75 inch for five. These should get around 1300 fps and are noiser than the 231 load but still hardly ear ringing. Increase the charges as needed to obtain stabilization but don't increase more than a half grain or so.

Don't give up on the bullet just yet. The big flatpoint makes it a great small game bullet, and I have bagged many critters with it.

Likely your Marlin has no throat and an overlong chamber neck which are not exactly cast friendly. A 1-12 twist would have been better, too. To best fit the bullet in these throatless barrels consider minimal case sizing with a Lee Collet Die (I had them make me one in .25-20 and it helps greatly) or fit a beagled bullet to unsized cases with the bullet tumbled lubed in LLA to help enlarge them for a semi snug fit. Try it with tumble lube alone to see if that enlarges the bullet sufficiently, but I doubt it will in the likely overlarge Marlin chamber. Crimp the bullet in the crimp groove for retention.

Since your gun probably has no throat and excessively long chamber neck it helps to fill the neck diameter as much as possible to help center the bullet before it hits the rifling.

[jwhite]

My favorite plinking load in the Marlin CL 25-20 is the 80 gr Lee Group Buy plain base with 2.7gr of Unique for a velocity of 928fps. I load these boolits backwards, seated out so I can just feel them engage the rifling when closing the lever. They seem to shoot better backwards than they do in the normal position with these light loads. The other advantage is they really hit a lot harder on small game which is most of what I use this rifle for.
Jerry

[26Charlie]

Thanks for the info - I'll try some of these suggestions, and start a new thread when I get something to report. Didn't mean to hijack this one.

[Char-Gar]

Rimfire et al... There is nothing wrong with asking questions, but nothing will substitute for personal experience. As you can tell, there are lots of different opinions on the matter at hand and many come at the subject from different directions.

As long as the question does not involve something unsafe, my answer is give it a try and tell us what you have learned.

Much of the advice on this board (and others like it) does not come from personal experience but it repeated from what the folks read or heard. Much of the shooting common wisdom out there is just plain not true, but it gets repeated and repeated until it is accepted as true.

There are so many variable in cast bullet shooting that often what works for one person won't work for another. So..give your project a chance with several alloys and see what shows up on the target. Then you will know and you will own that knowledge.

[NoDakJak]

I agree with Brett4207. I am shooting six 25-20 rifles and the only common loat that shoots adequately in all is 257312 backed with Lil Gun. None of them are tackdrivers with this bullet. I can't help thinking that a 75 grain bullet; maybe shortened 257312 would be better for these slow twist barrels. Yesterday I decided to build some small game and plinking loads for my custom 250-3000. It is a Sako with a ten inch twist. Testing began with the 87 grain Remington 25-20 bullet seated ahead of 12.0 grains of IMR 4759 and seated about half way down the neck. Shot fairly well at 25 yards and about half inch at 50 yards. Good for small game and tighter groups than any of my 25-20s. I had also loaded some 257312 boolits with the same load and seating. Boolits were cast of acww, sized 258 and used alox. I didn't hold out much hope because of the fast twist. Ignorant me! I was so delighted with the 25 yard groups that I shot all my loads at that range and never managed to get to the 50 yard targets. Tommorow maybe. That unruly little slug punched out groups as small as .27 and the largest was 3/4 inch counting a called flier. To say that I am flabbergasted would be an understatement. Whelen was right! Accurate rifles are interesting! This load out of an ancient Lyman Handbook. Neil

[35remington]

NoDak, we had just such a shortened 257312 made on our last .25 Group Buy. Weighs 80 grains and has two crimp grooves.

[Boerrancher]

I have shot the 85 gr plain base in my 25-20 and used 7 gr of AA#9 powder. I never could get good accuracy out of them. I don't know what mold brand or number they were as I got them from a friend. I tried other powders and charges but the 7 gr charge did give the best results. I finally gave up and went to 75 gr V max and 14 gr of AA1680. This is not a safe bullet and load in an old lever gun. My 25-20 is one that I built on a 95 mauser that I shortened and reworked, so I have no worries with hot loads. That is why I am still looking for a mold with a gas check.

Best Wishes

[NoDakJak]

35Remington: Who made them and are any available? And tell me more about that throat reamer.
Boerrancher: I like your idea of using a shortened Mauser action. Tell us the particulars and maybe some pictures.
Neil

[Wayne Smith]

[QUOTE=35remington;294975]Okay, we'll all have an opportunity to put our oar in this one.

Rimfire, if I recall correctly, the Marlin has a relatively slow rifling twist and will not care for the 257312 at relatively low plinking velocties. You might want to check the twist and report back on that one. It may be that another bullet in plainbase will suit you better. With gaschecks costing what they do, it is my opinion that no cheap plinking bullet carries a gascheck. I belive NEI has an 85 grain plainbase design that may fit the bill for you, but it also might be better at low velocities if it was shorter.
QUOTE]


For what it's worth, NEI will cut their molds to whatever length you want. Well, within reason. Just call and ask what they can do. I don't think they can shorten the nose, but will the shank by reducing lube grooves.

[Boerrancher]

Boerrancher: I like your idea of using a shortened Mauser action. Tell us the particulars and maybe some pictures.
Neil

GRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trying to get these pics of the custom 25-20 up and it is not working. It keeps asking for a URL. I want the pics off of my hard drive and there is no other options. I guess I am not smart enough to get it done. I will post them along with a brief explanation as to how I did it as soon as I figure out.


Best Wishes

[35remington]

Lee made the group buy .25's in a six cavity. Looks like a 257312 with two crimp grooves, and is somewhat shorter.

The reamer is by Dave Manson, and I gave around 50 dollars for it as I recall. Most .25-20's, especially the Contender Custom Shop barrels, are afflicted with bad chamber dimensions - overlong neck, no throat. Not good for cast.

A throating reamer helps considerably.

[Boerrancher]

Here is the photos I hope they work.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/121/1010108be0.jpg

To say that I shortened the action is actually a misnomer. I moved the bolt stop and ejector forward 3/4 of an inch which allowed me to use a 30 carbine mag that I cut down to be placed in the original magazine box after removal of the original follower and follower spring. The new magazine box holds 3 rounds that can be loaded with hollow points as seen in this next photo.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/5615/closeupot9.jpg

I reworked the cocking piece so that unlike the original 95 mauser, that cocks on closing, this rifle half cocks on opening and then finishes cocking on closing. It makes the action operate just a bit smoother. As a side benefit, the lock time was also more than cut in half because it shortened the fall of the firing pin by half the distance.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4262/1010109yy7.jpg

I used a Douglas premium air gage barrel, with an OAL of 22 in. I hand carved the stock, nothing fancy as I have on some of my other rifles I have built, because I wanted to use it and carry it in the cab of the tractor. I only wish that I could find someone with some hot blue tanks so that I could have it polishes and blued as it is a bit fugly.

My pet loads are the 87 gr Siera HP on 9 grs of AA #9. I can regularly shoot less than 1/2 in groups at 100 yds with that load and with the same zero bust fist size rocks at 200 yds. I also like 14 grs of AA 1680 with the 75 gr V max. The groups open up to about an inch at 100 yds but the extra velocity and expansion is worth the slight loss of accuracy. I know that these loads well exceed the recommended pressures of most 25-20's, but they show none of the signs of pressure in this rifle. If it didn't shoot so well I would consider upping the loads even more, but don't see the need.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch

[NoDakJak]

Boerrancher: I like your idea. It is evident that you have spent a lot of labor on the concept. Was getting that magaziine to feed right a PITA? What did you do about the bolt face and extractor? I have considered using a 93 or 95 Mauser action to assemble a wildcat 25 based on the 7.62x39 case. Should make a good truck or tractor gun and can be rechambered to 250-3000 if I don't like it. I have given up on the use of a scope on a tractor gun due to dust. A dab of tape on the end of the barrel and go. The thought just occurred to me to try using a rubber on ech end of a scope. Cheap and quick to remove. Neil

[Boerrancher]

Neil,

Yes getting the mag to feed correctly was a PITA, if you are not careful how you load them in the mag it can still be. The bolt face and extractor were not a problem on the 95. I can see where if the extractor is worn there could be problems as it is just barely long enough to grip the rim and work properly now. I could have built up the bolt face some and then milled it to fit better but everything worked so I left it alone. I had enough troubles with out creating more by "improving" something that already worked. If I had it to do over again, there are some minor changes I would make, like trying to find a smoother working action. I would have stayed with the 95 as the oblong shaped bolt face with the flat bottom does assist in feeding where a bolt with a round face would have been a bigger PITA. To be honest I used the worst action I had, because I wasn't sure I could do it and make it work, and was not about to cut up a good action. Some day I may make another, but this one shoots good so I think with a good polish and blue it will work smoother.

I think a 25 cal x 39mm would work well, and should give give you close to low end 250 sav ballistics. Unless you are just wanting to do it to do it, I don't really understand why you would make a wildcat that has to have special made reloading dies. If you want something in that ballistics range build yourself a 25-35 winchester on a bolt gun, and shoot the same type of jacketed bullets that I do. That way you don't have the extra expense of custom made chambering reamer, and custom made reloading dies. Also, you will have to find a way to resize the brass the first time with out damaging the necks, going from a 30 to a 25 in one shot can cause wrinkles in the brass. Then there is the fire-forming and inside neck reaming, before you actually get a truly usable piece of brass. It will be a good project if you don't mind the work, but there actually is a lot of work and expense involved with a wild cat, compared to the building of a 25-35 that will provide the same performance.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[NoDakJak]

Boerrancher, Buildinng the 25x39 on the Mauser is just a test piece. If it works out well I intend to assemble another on a CZ527. I fully intend to build a 25-35 on a choice Highwall action that I have had stashed for many years. Am thinking about a Douglas Supreme with 1-12 twist. Back in the early sixties I became enamored with the 25 Wooters Tooter/25 Copperhead that gun writer John Wooters assembled on a beautiful little Sako with sleek Mannlicher stock. Was a 222 opened up to 25 caliber. Flexible cartridge that could be loaded from 25 rimfire to low end 250 Savage velocities. Was loaded commercially in Australia and known as the 25 Super according to several articles that I have read. Plan on building one on a Cz or Mauser Mini MkX that I have lurking back in the shadows. How about a comment from some of you folks that live in the southern hemisphere! Do any of you gents have experience with the 25 Super and care to share loads? It seems to me that the 222R opened to 25 would be fantastic in one of my little Martinis. How about you Wicky? Have you or any of your mates tried this combination? Damn, I wish that I had a lot more money! Am I eat up in the head with the 25 caliber? Ya bet yer behind I am! BTW. Am retired military myself. Ten Naval Aviation! Check the USS Midway forum. Twelve more Air Force! Neil