My 44-40 Black Powder Journey

[w30wcf]

I first began my.44-40 black powder journey back in 1999. Just prior to that, I had obtained some early .44-40 black powder factory W.R.A. CO. head stamped cartridges for study. Dissecting them, I found that they contained a pure lead 200 gr. bullet with two shallow grease grooves. The 40gr. FFG charge was compressed an average of about .20”.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/44wcfbulletspulled.jpg

In 1875, to give its readers some idea of what their .44 W.C.F. (44-40) black powder factory ammunition was capable of in their then new 1873 rifle, Winchester featured a letter they received from a E.H. Pardee, M.D. of San Francisco, CA

“It affords memuch pleasure to communicate to you the result of 30 consecutive shots at adistance of 110 yards with one of the improved Winchester rifles (1873). The firing was done without wiping, whichproves the Winchester to be steady in her performance…..”

Illustrated was atarget containing 30 shots, all inside of a 4” circle, and all fired with no cleaning between rounds. Pretty impressive, even now..

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/44-4073originalctgsa.jpg

Today, Lyman’s 427098 mold is a close replication of the original bullet and bullets from ittypically measure around .427” - .428” diameter depending on the alloy. Most .44-40 rifles made currently usually have a groove diameter of .429” with some barrels as large as .432”. I did find that if undersized bullets are soft enough (no harder than 50/1) they will bump up and give accurate shooting.

However, it is better to have a bullet that is at least .001” over groove diameter if possible.. That is what a good friend of mine who goes by the handle “Fairshake” did several years ago when he contacted Accurate Molds to have them produce a 427098 clone mold, which, could be purchased to produce bullets in a specific diameter to fit an individual rifle’s specifications. In addition, the lube grooves would be square bottomed like the original factory bullets but with a bit more lube capacity.

I began my journey with the Lyman mold. Bullets were lubed with SPG and loaded over Goex FFG powder sparked by CCI 300 primers in R-P cases. All was well for about 10 rounds” or so in the 24” barrel but accuracybegan to degrade rapidly shortly thereafter as a hard ring of fouling started to build from the muzzle back into the barrel.

I then tried magnum large pistol primers, but still the hard ring of fouling made its appearance. I came to the conclusion that, based on Doc Pardee’s excellentresults, the early b.p.’s were of better quality than the Goex powder I wasusing.

SWISS B.P.
I had read about Swiss b.p. made in Switzerland that was said to have similar characteristics to the early b.p.’s so I ordered some. What a difference! Now I was able to shoot 50+rounds with no hard ring of fouling and accuracy being maintained throughout. I found that with bullets from the Accurate 427098 clone (43-210B) pioneered by “Fairshake” over SwissFFG powder, the accuracy and performance of the original factory b.p. cartridges could be replicated.

GOEX B.P. – BulletDevelopment for use with -
But what about those who wanted to use a b.p. made in the U.S.? Back in 2002, a fellow with the handle PRS(Pigeon Roost Slim) had been working with the .45 Colt to develop a bullet that would carry enough lube to keep the more fouling Goex powder from fouling out in repeated shots. Lee made the mold to his specifications and it has worked very well.
Following that, a fellow with the handle “Mav Dutchman” had Lee make a similar mold for the.44-40.

Thankfully, a fellow by the name of DD (Dick Dastardly) made it possible to procure thosemolds today at www.biglube.com (http://www.biglube.com/).

“MAV D” (Big Lube)- I purchased some of the “Mav D” bullets from the supplier listed below and,sure enough, loaded over Goex powder, Icould fire many shots in a row with accuracy being maintained throughout.

Accurate 43-215C - Being a traditionalist, I decided that I wanted a bullet that would exactly match the original .44-40 bullet nose profile and would carry enough lube for the 24” trip many times accurately using standard Goex black powder. In addition, I had found that the original nose profile is best for down range accuracy (100+ yards) which is one of the things I like to do.

To start with, I used the 427098 and machined away the middle driving band a bit at a time, thus adding a bit more lube capacity until testing indicated that I had reached the IDEAL lube capacity for the task at hand.. It is now the 43-215C made by Accurate Molds. Thankfully, it runs very well with Goex and continues to produce very good down range accuracy (100+ yards) for many rounds with no foul out.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/44-40bpbullets-1.jpg


BULLET SUPPLIERS
1.) “Mav D” (BigLube)
2.) 43-210B(427098 clone) Not shown on Mark's website but he offers it. Contact forinformation
www.whyteleatherworks.com (http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/)

427098 - http://www.buffaloarms.com/Hand_Cast_Bullets_it-157239.aspx?CAT=4135- (http://www.buffaloarms.com/Hand_Cast_Bullets_it-157239.aspx?CAT=4135-)

Black Dawge - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/137773/goex-black-dawge-bullets-44-caliber-430-diameter-205-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-100?cm_vc=ProductFinding (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/137773/goex-black-dawge-bullets-44-caliber-430-diameter-205-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-100?cm_vc=ProductFinding)

Accurate 43-215F –no commercial supplier presently

BULLET MOLDS
www.biglube.com (http://www.biglube.com/)
www.accuratemolds.com (http://www.accuratemolds.com/)
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/index-pistols.php

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/44-40bpbulletcartridgecomparison-1.jpg

BLACK POWDERS > GROUP A -
Goex / Schuetzen / Diamondback
Works best with the Mav D (Big Lube) or the 43-215C bullets

BLACK POWDER > GROUP B
KIK – with the 427098 /43-210B, accuracy was maintained for about 2X longer than Goex or about 20 rounds after which accuracy deteriorated as the black ring of fouling wasbuilding in the 24” barrel at the muzzle inward. .

BLACK POWDERS > GROUP C
Swiss / Olde Enysford
Works very well with the original 2 lube grooved bullet … 427098 / 43-210B
(Testing the newer introducedOlde Enysford powder last year, I found that it worked as well as Swissproducing very good continuous accuracy for many shots.)

BLACK POWDER SUPPLIERS (will ship as little as 5#)
http://blackpowderva.com/ (http://blackpowderva.com/)
http://www.powderinc.com/ (http://www.powderinc.com/)
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501 (http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501)


LOADING .44-40BLACK POWER CARTRIDGES
I typically use a Lyman 55 powder measure which has markings for b.p. and mostly Ioad with themeasure set at the “40” setting. Because the densities of different black powders vary, the actual weight varies as this pic indicates.
.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/44-4040grmeasure.jpg

I dump the powdercharge slowly into the case with the pan held 4-5” above the powder funnel tosettle it. Some folks use a drop tubebut I find that I get pretty much the same result in the .44-40 case) Another method that I have recently adopted isto drop the charges in a block of 50 cases, then put another block on top and lightly rapidly tap the cartridge block which also settles the powder.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/settlingbpbeforesettled.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Settlingbp.jpg
A hand held body massagevibrator will likely work as well…..
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/settledbp.jpg
Lesser powder charges can certainly be used as long as the powder is compressed. Some folks use the Lee 2.2CC scoop for their .44-40 b.p. loads. It holds 32.5 grs. by weight of Goex FFG.Compression is about .10” on a settled charge (Winchester or Starline cases) at a seating depth of .36”.

To determine theamount of power compression a particular load requires, I use a fired casewhere the bullet is a slip fit in the case neck. First determine the o.a.l. ofyour loaded cartridge. Then after placing the powder charge into the fired case(pouring it in slowly to settle it) place the bullet into the case neck, pu**** down on the powder and measure the o.a.l. The compression is the difference between that length and the finalloaded cartridge length..

In the loadingprocess, if your bullet is at least 10-12 BHN hardness, it can be used to compress the powder charge when seated. If less than 10 BHN, it would be betterto pre compress the powder before seating the bullet……depending on the amountof compression and the actual hardness of the bullet. Pre compressing the powder can be done withthe neck expander, a compression die, or a slightly smaller caliber jacketedbullet like a 10MM.

Velocities recorded with different black powdersloaded at the “40” setting – Lyman 55 measure. Because of the differentdensities, the actual weights of the various powders do vary, but by using thevolume measure, the compression is the same for all..
Case– R-P .44-40 / Primer – CCI 300
Bullet– 210 gr. 427098 / 43-210B

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/44-40blackpowder40grmeasure.jpg
With Swiss FFG and Olde Enysford, I found that the “36” setting produced velocities comparable with theoriginal 44-40 b.p. cartridge.

continued next post

[w30wcf]

So just how accurate can a well crafted .44-40 black powder cartridge be? Very accurate.

Remember the 30 shot group I mentioned in the beginning fired in 1875? 30 shots under 4” @ 100yards. Awesome! Fast forward 135 years or so later at 100 yards…...that performance is still obtainable today …….

For the accuracy testing, I had a scope mounted on the .44-40 Marlin Cowboy (24”) rifle since itneeded to be about the true accuracy of the cartridge rather than a test of howwell I can see iron sights with my aging eyes.

Note: The bullet was actually the 43-210B
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/44-40DocPardeedup3.jpg

And a follow up 10 shot group ….
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/44-40100yards.jpg
In the late 1800’s Winchester claimed that it’s .44 W.C.F. (.44-40) wasadequate for deer and bear out to 300 yards. Well, I have no desire to try thatbut I do love to shoot at steel silhouettes out a ways….

300 meters (327yards) on the steel javelina

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/Accurate43-210B.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/44-40Accurate43-215C300M.jpg

Accurate Bulletmolds with the original .44-40 bullet nose profile

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/44-40Accuratebulletsoriginalnoseprofileupdated.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/44wcfvar.jpg

So far, so good!
w30wcf

[Outpost75]

Great stuff!

I have some Brazilian "Elephant" brand 2F and 3F black which was given me. Admittedly not the best BP, but the price was "right" so I may try it compared with Pyrodex P in my Ruger Vaquero 5-1/2" and Marlin 1894S just for academic curiosity.

My plan is to mix some hillbilly correct lube, absolutely "non-Halal" Goya refined pig lard (Manteca) and beeswax, 50-50 by melted volume and fill the case similarly to what you have done. Then we can answer the question , will Microgroove shoot black? Let's find out!

[John Boy]

w30wcf ... yes, the culmination of a journey with a great article. Thanks for the post
Am sure that Lee Shaver or Steve Garbe would like to publish your treatise! The cover page of the current issue of Black Powder Cartridge News is entitled ... The Guns of 1873
Would be a great follow up article ;)

[M-Tecs]

w30wcf - Thanks for the post. Great info.

[retread]

Good post. Love those old 73's.

[alrighty]

Thank you for the great post w30wcf. A couple of years ago I managed to pick up a 92 Winchester SRC in .44/40 made in 1919.In searching for some loading tips I ran across a post by "Fairshake".I sent him a p.m. with a couple of questions and in a few days I had a nice supply of his 430-210B already lubed and sized for me to try.
The 430-210B shot so well I had to have Tom at Accurate Moulds make me one.

[Lead pot]

Good post John!
The .44-40 was and still is a great cartridge. I like it.
I would like to have a 1860 Henry (new) cant afford an original for the .44-40 :)

[cajun shooter]

I'm happy to see that you posted this article John. When you sent it to me, my first thought was that it needed to be available for others to read. I have my copy saved in a special place. Thanks David "Aka Cajun Shooter aka Fairshake"

[iron brigade]

Good article. I am about to take a journey with my uberti henry 44-40. special thanks to David for all he has done to help me. generous man.

[bigbuck]

THANK YOU,

for sharing this with us.

Greetings from sunny Bavaria

bigbuck

[bedbugbilly]

Great write up and information - thanks very much for sharing it with us. I load some BP cartridges but have never done a 44-40 and your information certainly gives a good run down on that cartridge and the research you've put in to it. I'd cast a vote that they make this a "sticky" as it certainly provides some great information. Thanks again!

[Chill Wills]

What a great read! Thank you!
I would 2nd the request for this to become a STICKY.
:drinks:[smilie=s::grin::popcorn:
Makes me want to get the 44 back out!

[Chill Wills]

John, I have been interested in the use of the old reloading tools for this kind of historical ammo reproduction. Have you tried any of this with the old Ideal -all in one- tool, that is, the Ideal #4, with the mold attached? Not the newer 310 tool.
Or maybe the Winchester tool combo of mold and loading tool?

-Michael Rix

[Outpost75]

Third request for "Sticky" Probably the best article I have ever read on this site! My favorite is:
127340

[alrighty]

I agree this should be a sticky , lots of good information and it needs to be easy to find.Thanks again to both John and David!

[Lumpy grits]

Try that .44 WCF loaded with 3F Goex.
It really comes alive, then.
LG

[w30wcf]

Guys,
Thank you for the kind words and encouragement.:smile:

Outpost 75,
I think you will find that the Elephant powder will produce ballistics similar to the Diamondback powder that replaced it.

Chill Wills,
I don't have the Ideal tool but I do have a Winchester Mold and Winchester loading tool for the .44 W.C.F.
The mold has wooden handles and drops a .426" bullet that weighs 206 grs in pure lead.
I do have an ideal tool for a few other calibers with the attached mold. I definitely need to wear some heavy gloves to be able to hold onto the handles when casting.

LG,
A 40 gr volume charge of Goex FFFG goes 1,310 f.p.s. and did not give as good accuracy as did Swiss FFG which actually produced higher velocity.

w30wcf

[Lumpy grits]

What alloy are you using? I use 30:1(lead/tin).
What primer?
I have had much better results using DGL lube for BP loads, than I ever did with SPG.
LG

[cajun shooter]

Chill Wills, I have had my Ideal tool for the 44WCF for about 7 years now. I was a long hard hunt and I still was not able to find one with the intact decap tool intact. I did secure one about 4 years ago. These tools were made for the early 44WCF's as the mold drops a .425 bullet with 20-1 alloy.
As you know the caliber did come with bores of this size before they decided to make them at .427 which became the standard for Winchester.
I will tell you that I could not wait to load some ammo from scratch so that I could see what the old cowboys went through. It only takes about 10 rounds before the handles become too hot to hold and the loading comes to a stop. Of course for the most part, from what history I was able to gather, they only had to load the ones they fired that day which was not huge amounts like we use in a SASS match.

It's written that they would wrap the handles in leather strips in addition to wearing leather gloves. I have a good picture of mine on a disc but I have no idea where it's at.
You can see where the tool was hit with a piece of heavy metal as the top of one handle has small indentions on it.
I have often wondered what I'm going to do with the tool as I don't want it to go to a flea market and purchased for $5 by some kid who uses it as a toy. As in the movie Apocalypse Now, The Horror oh The Horror. Ha!! Ha!! Later David

[w30wcf]

LG,
I use various alloys with b.p. depending on the application...from pure lead to 50/1 to a mix of w.w./lead to plain w.w with 2% tin added.

I was using a mix of w.w. / lead (11 BHN) when I shot the targets illustrated.
SPG has worked very well for me ... at least in the cartridges with a 40 gr. charge and lower sectional density bullets.
As they say, "A picture is worth a 1000 words." and the targets do speak for themselves.

I have thought about getting some DGL lube to try but haven't done it yet.

w30wcf

[Lead pot]

John try a mix of B-wax and Vaseline the temper that suits you.

[blackpowder man]

+1 more vote for a sticky. I load a bunch of bp cartridges and am ready to add .44-40 to the list of ones I shoot. Got everything I need except for a gun chambered in it.

[prs]

Jack, that is a fine write-up. I really like your version of the 44 boolit with the PRS type lube canyon. Back when I put my way too large and deep lube canyon in the 45 colt boolit, I was pretty much limited to Goex and then Elephant and thus the need for lots of lube. I was also using clip on WW alloy with 2% tin. Elephant in the early batches was not too bad, but later on I think they were scraping up the dregs a bit. Swiss rules and I have plenty of it so no experience with Ole E, yet. Congratulations on the fine shooting rifle, the fine shooting loads you worked-up, and the fine shooting you did! Carry on!

prs

[w30wcf]

Howdy PRS,
Thank you. It was your development work that proved that additional lube capacity would eliminate foul out and allow many repeated accurate shots with Goex and similar fouling powders.:smile:

I just did a bit more experimenting to see what the Ideal lube capacity would be beyond which any additional lube would not be consumed and thus not needed. :drinks:

Did you ever get the chance to shoot those 45-260F bullets that I had sent to you?

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Lead pot,
Thank you. I might give that a try.

w30wcf

[Lead pot]

It was used in the late 1800rds mixed 50/50. I use it straight for a patch lube and can shoot the whole match with out sticking a ball.

[bigted]

very interesting post. thankyou so much for the info and clear presentation. nice to read a post that has no quibbling in it and full of GREAT info.

I also would be proud to see this a STICKY

[Hickok]

I enjoyed that. I would think the Marlin 1894 rifle would be easy to clean after shooting BP, it being so simple to take down.

[Lumpy grits]

I enjoyed that. I would think the Marlin 1894 rifle would be easy to clean after shooting BP, it being so simple to take down.

They are the KISS of rifle design.
I shoot BP in mine for SASS all the time.
LG

[Old Scribe]

w30wcf, thanks for the fine article. I haven't loaded BP cartridges but I'm gonna pretty soon. I just got my grandfather's '73 44-40 from my brother. My gramps was born in 1892 and I have a picture of him on horseback with this rifle circa 1918.
This would make a great sticky.

[w30wcf]

Old Scribe,
Wonderful! Walking in your grandfather's steps using the Winchester that he used is really special!:-D
Have you checked the serial number to see when it was manufactured/

Since the original '73's can vary a bit in their groove dimensions, it would be a good idea to slug the barrel.

Back in those days it was known that pure lead bullets and b.p. would shoot well from barrels having slightly different internal dimensions. That is not the case with harder cast bullets that do not fill the groove.

w30wcf

[prs]

Howdy PRS,
Thank you. It was your development work that proved that additional lube capacity would eliminate foul out and allow many repeated accurate shots with Goex and similar fouling powders.:smile:

I just did a bit more experimenting to see what the Ideal lube capacity would be beyond which any additional lube would not be consumed and thus not needed. :drinks:

Did you ever get the chance to shoot those 45-260F bullets that I had sent to you?

w30wcf

NO! They are way too purdy to shoot! Well, actually, I have been busy correcting a personal flaw. I had never owned or learned to handle proficiently a 1911 and now, after a couple or few years at it, I am about ready to return to my smoke filled ventures. I may make a spring project of "your" boolits.

prs

[prs]

To our Moderators:

This thread definitely needs to be a STICKY. Please.

prs

[SgtDog0311]

w30wcf, Thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks for taking the time to share your journey. Makes me want to go get some brass ready and give BP a try. If nothing else some great recommendations for a new mold from Tom.

[cajun shooter]

I designed the 43-210B as Tom has pointed out in his article but I've always used a different lube from what Tom has been stuck to like glue for quite a while. I sent him some of my bullets several years back to use in his Marlin. Tom's Marlin has a 24 inch barrel as opposed to the 18" bbl on my 1873 and 20'" bbl on my Rossi 92 (Early Brazilian model).
My guns both have the .427 bbls. and I size my bullets at .429 I would advise anyone who has a 44WCF to slug your barrel before buying any molds.
Tom and I have had many conversations about him having great accuracy with my bullet, the 43-210B until he has fired more than 25 or more rounds, then he has leading in his bore. I told him that I had never had one incident of leading with my bullet when lubed with the NASA lube that I used all the time.
Tom said that he never had any trouble with other bullets when he used his SPG lube. I sent Tom some NASA lube and he finally agreed to try it. He sent me a letter describing how he had used my bullet lubed with NASA and fired out of his Marlin for many rounds with no leading at all.
I was so glad that Tom finally decided to use the NASA lube and see what I was speaking of. It was after he kept getting leading with my bullet that he designed the 43-215C which is a very fine bullet also.
Tom posted a video that shows him shooting my bullet at metal rams at 300 yards on the site. It's worthwhile looking it up and watching.
I've loaded some ammo up with the Olde Eynsford and hope to post some info on that soon. Take care David aka Fairshake

[cajun shooter]

138834138835138836138837138838138839138839138840
These are the pics of my 44wcf Ideal Handloading Tool. Research on my part shows that this is a Ideal #4 Tool. The patent date on the side reads 1884.
I tried casting some bullets with this mold from 20-1 alloy and it dropped bullets at .425-.426
The decapping tool was not with the tool when I first purchased it. It took me about four years to find one and I had to pay $50 for it. The tool is designed to carry the decapper in the bullet seating chamber and it is easy for it to fall out on opening. You can see where the one handle was hit with a metal object for help in the loading process. The bullet mold has the same marks, most likely for ejecting the cast bullet from the mold. Later David

[John Boy]

David, you may be interested ... I'm putting back together a JM Marlin Ballard, #2 Sporting Rifle, which was originally chambered for the 44WCF. Presently am gathering all the needed parts for it. Will be relined with TJ's 1:18 liner.
Talking with John, the bullets will be 1:16 alloy from his Accurate 43-215C. Reason is because I'll be able to shoot both BP and smokeless reloads with the bullet

[Outpost75]

To our Moderators:

This thread definitely needs to be a STICKY. Please. prs

Another vote for STICKY!

[Klaus]

Another vote for STICKY!

The Vote for Sticky from Germany too

very interesting posts from John to understand how the oltimers load and use the BP Rounds in the field
some forgotten info will revived for people in charge with this fantastic stuff

regards
Klaus :2_high5:

[quickdraw66]

Wow, great write up! It makes me want a 44-40. :D

[victorfox]

Mr. Jack Christian, congrats. nice writing, great rifle, wonderful shooting.
we brazilians are a bunch of morons. I've seen quite a bunch of original Winchesters 1873 and 1892 neglected or bubbaed to the vomit point... Yours is impeckable!
Another un-funny fact of gun control, i've never seen Elephant powder here for sale, I can only get some unamed 2 1/2oz tubes... but the factory is there in the northeast, since 1866. The northeast of Brazil also was one of the richest regions and many of the great guns of the past were bought and used in that region, eg. Mausers, Colt, S&W etc...

[Outpost75]

I posted a follow-up on the Marlin forum, but did not share the info here. Here are 100-yard targets shot with my Microgroove 1894S Marlin in .44-40 using black powder. Yes, it can be done. These groups were shot with 33 grains of Elephant powder and Accurate 43-230EB, which is my modification of John's 43-215C adding a .03 bevel base and widening the base band slightly to increase weight to 230 grains. This mild load shoots well, but accuracy improved when I used John's methods to settle 36 grains into the Starline brass and the fliers disappeared and the groups show denser centers. But 10-shot groups at 100 yards, 20 consecutive round here with no wiping or blow tubing and "dirty" powder shows that a Microgroove will shoot black if the bullet and lube are correct.

An acid test of John's method I would say.
169025169027169026

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for reviving this excellent thread, Victorfox. I don't have a 44WCF in my stable at the moment but when that is corrected 30WCF is getting part of the blame. ;-)
Excellent thread, gents. Nicely done!

[victorfox]

TxGunNut you're welcome sir! In fact I believe cast boolits is sort of a deep web thing... There are a ton of great threads here meaning a literal ton... I came here accidentally due to an external search on the Elephant powder.
I just happened to be directed (check for yourself, most google searches lead - pun intended - to castboolits) from there and bump there's this great thread I've never seen...
44-40 is a great caliber to me. I just don't go and buy one because current production Rossi's are 429/432 bored and CBC ammo is about 427". Not easy to reload here. Original guns are either rotten or have collector price tags, or both.
I'm always talking a friend who has a Remington 14 1/2 if he ever wants to sell it offer it to me first. It's the only one I've seen around, has a good bore, and is about 50% good overall finish. A good shooter it is.
Outpost75, this is very good shooting. Nice boolit too, saving the drawing and pic for reference.

[John Boy]

In a couple of weeks, w30wcf aka John Kort and I are going to run some comparatives over the chronograph:
Kort:
* Marlin
* Accurate 43-215C - John's bullet design
* 36gr KIK FFg

John Boy:
* Ballard
* Accurate 43-215C
* 36gr Goex Cartridge, discontinued FFg
We'll probably run 20 rounds each but have not decided with or w/o fouling control

[Outpost75]

Looking forward to your report and pictures of your Ballard!

[John Boy]

Here's the Ballard - 44 WCF, JM Marlin Sporting model ...

A Ballard 1880's something Sporting rifle. Serial 136XX doesn't match production dates for Sporting rifles. It is a 30" barrel originally chambered for 44WCF with a TJ liner in 44-40.
The rifle came to me as someone else's project with no sights - new case colored block & finger lever and new forearm & stock.
The bluing is a nice patina full color

To put it back together: TJ 44-40 1:18 liner - a MVA Beach front sight that was an original option - a receiver sight out of my parts box - a new extractor -new replica tang sight and a new butt plate with screws. Ballard used 1873 Winchester butt plate screws

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ballard/BAllard%2044-40/DSC01073_zpsvrvzdukz.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ballard/BAllard%2044-40/DSC01074_zpseobdt7b9.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ballard/BAllard%2044-40/DSC01075_zpsqmemelsp.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ballard/BAllard%2044-40/DSC01076_zpsm4ufs8wn.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ballard/BAllard%2044-40/DSC01077_zpsmzwwlcdx.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ballard/BAllard%2044-40/DSC01078_zpszbyq1hk4.jpg

[smokeywolf]

Very nice looking rifle. I've a weakness for nicely figured stocks.

[Outpost75]

Beautiful!

[TXGunNut]

John Boy, that rifle has more character than any I've seen recently...and most of my rifles have plenty of character. Very nice.

[northmn]

This article should be a sticky. I keep looking for it and it keeps moving further down the list. Moving it back up.

DEP

[Outpost75]

Thanks for bumping this. I enjoyed reading it again.

[OlDeuce]

This is a Great Thread....for me the 44-40 with 3fff and a 200gr cast if a great combo for the Henry !!

Ol Deuce

[Steppenwolf]

I have a Belgian Frontier revolver and I am making some casings up for it out of .303 Brit. brass.
224223
224224
224225

[bigted]

This def needs to be brought up again. I am hoping to coax even more info on the 44WCF. My current spree is the 38WCF but ive a 92 in the works that will be the 44WCF so i am a sponge for anything written on either chamber.

Thanks again fellers for the good work with these great cartridges.

[Outpost75]

I would highly recommend to you Savvy Jack's .44-40 blog, which has an archive of the late John Kort's info and contributions from others here and elsewhere, all gathered together in one convenient place.

https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/blog

[bigted]

Kewl, thanks Outpost. Lotza reading there.

[John Boy]

Gentlemen - with a sad heart my good friend and shooting companion w30wcf aka ...
aka w44wcf
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian

passed on to his Lord and Savior on March 23,2018. He will be sorely missed by many
RIP John

[bigted]

I am very sad to hear this. Thankyou for the heads up. Prayers to and for his family.

[modified5]

Sorry to hear this. Prayers for his family and friends.

On a separate note, this thread really does need to be a sticky.

[Steppenwolf]

Sad news.
Gentlemen - with a sad heart my good friend and shooting companion w30wcf aka ...
aka w44wcf
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian

passed on to his Lord and Savior on March 23,2018. He will be sorely missed by many
RIP John

[Buzzard II]

Make this a sticky.
Bob

[JayinAZ]

Yes, please make this a sticky.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[heelerau]

I have come along to this thread ver late, I am loading for both a Uberti '73 carbine and a Henry , both in .44-40 WCF, I would like to thank the late Jack Christian for his wonderful work which has set me up to achieve the mythical 40 grains of FFFg that I was always told was not possible in the modern case which is not balloon headed like the originals. I have just loaded 20 compressed loads using an original Winchester .44 mould, pure lead bullet, but will later correct that. I normally only ever loaded 31 grains of FFFg as that was all I thought could be fitted into the modern case.
My sincere condolences to Jacks' family and friends, an obvious great loss to the Cast Boolit brotherhood as well.

Kindest regards
Gordon

[hrt4me]

Great Info, thanks!

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

John Kort (as I knew him) helped me turn a cantankerous 1873 Uberti in 44WCF into one of the most accurate and fun rifles that I ever shot.
One of the few regrets that I have is never looking him in the eye and shaking his hand. Swiss 2F and the 44WCF are a marriage made in heaven.

[Fritzeee]

That Mav Dutchman in 9-10 brinell with 24 gns. 3F Swiss, CCI primers, SPG, sized 430 in a steel frame Henry will put one right behind the other at 50y. Caution. Pure lead will not work.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

....... with 24 gns. 3F Swiss, CCI primers, SPG, sized 430.....

Do you mean 34 grains of Swiss 3F? 24 grains would leave a lot of airspace.

[indian joe]

That Mav Dutchman in 9-10 brinell with 24 gns. 3F Swiss, CCI primers, SPG, sized 430 in a steel frame Henry will put one right behind the other at 50y. Caution. Pure lead will not work.

Pure lead used to work in the old days - its more difficult to cast with, but compensates in superb expansion for hunting - maybe the dutchman design with that big monster lube groove is distorting on launch ?

[rjmarder]

good morning. I'm have having a beautiful Colorado snow day. I have a question loading bp for 44 40 reloads for my 73 winchester 24", built in 1886. I have had the rifle inspected by my master gunsmith and she is good to shot. I have years of reloading all kinds of antique ammo using modern powders and substitute powders. Reloading Specs: Star brass, Schuetzen FFG, 200 grn lead, greased with crisco. After doing a few months of research I have found a variety of load suggestions. 2.2 dipper or 39 grain recommended by Goetz (specs found on their website), or my smith recommended 35.
Should I use a lighter load of bp topped off with creme of wheat to protect the rifle. Thank you for all your responses.

[Outpost75]

Full charge BP load will be quite satisfactory.

[Thundermaker]

good morning. I'm have having a beautiful Colorado snow day. I have a question loading bp for 44 40 reloads for my 73 winchester 24", built in 1886. I have had the rifle inspected by my master gunsmith and she is good to shot. I have years of reloading all kinds of antique ammo using modern powders and substitute powders. Reloading Specs: Star brass, Schuetzen FFG, 200 grn lead, greased with crisco. After doing a few months of research I have found a variety of load suggestions. 2.2 dipper or 39 grain recommended by Goetz (specs found on their website), or my smith recommended 35.
Should I use a lighter load of bp topped off with creme of wheat to protect the rifle. Thank you for all your responses.

In our litigious society, you probably won't find many who are eager to answer that question.

[DaveM]

The Lee 2.2cc dipper throws about 35 grains of black powder. I use that for full-power loads under a 219 grain bullet. From the 24" barrel of my Uberti 1873 Sporting Rifle, it averages a bit over 1300 FPS when using Swiss. Goex is less energetic so it will deliver lower velocities.

Enjoy your "new" rifle!

[Dave T]

Pure lead used to work in the old days - its more difficult to cast with, but compensates in superb expansion for hunting - maybe the dutchman design with that big monster lube groove is distorting on launch ?

Back in the 1980s through the mid 1990s I owned a beat-up on the outside but fully functional on the inside 1873 Winchester made in 1887. It was a special order rifle with a round 28" barrel. Originally a 38 WCF the inside of the barrel looked like the proverbial sewer pipe. I had Clifford LaBounty re-bore and re-line it to a .428" 44 WCF. I used Rem or Win brass and loaded 36g of FFFg behind Lyman's 200g RNFP bullet. Alloy was 1-20 and I lubed them with SPG. The memory fades but as I recall they chronographed at a something over 1300 fps.

Shot it for close to 10 years in CAS matches. Back then they expected you to actually be able to shoot so rifle targets would go out to 60 or 70 yards on occasion. That rifle never missed one of those longer shots, even after firing 8 or 9 rounds at closer targets. On a clear still day at the range I shot a 7" five shot group from a sandbag rest at 200 yards with the original barrel mounted sights. And yes, my eyes were much better back then. (smile)

My $.02 would be, don't down load it. Learn what it was like to shoot it in the old days, with BP ammo performing at the same level as the original. But, that's me and what I did with my rifle. Your gun, your choice at your comfort level.

Dave

[Outpost75]

^^^^This^^^^[

[indian joe]

good morning. I'm have having a beautiful Colorado snow day. I have a question loading bp for 44 40 reloads for my 73 winchester 24", built in 1886. I have had the rifle inspected by my master gunsmith and she is good to shot. I have years of reloading all kinds of antique ammo using modern powders and substitute powders. Reloading Specs: Star brass, Schuetzen FFG, 200 grn lead, greased with crisco. After doing a few months of research I have found a variety of load suggestions. 2.2 dipper or 39 grain recommended by Goetz (specs found on their website), or my smith recommended 35.
Should I use a lighter load of bp topped off with creme of wheat to protect the rifle. Thank you for all your responses.

NO! FFg Schuetzen is already well down the road to reduced pressure

[rjmarder]

Again I wish to thank everyone for your input. Yesterday to be safe, I took some test shots with my new winchester golden boy. It became clear how much lower the pressures are using BP over modern powders, I than shot 73 using a full BP load as recommended above. Now that i have some BP experience, I understand why there is no need to cut any BP loads in the future. Easy peasy

[Savvy Jack]

It became clear how much lower the pressures are using BP over modern powders, I than shot 73 using a full BP load as recommended above. Now that i have some BP experience, I understand why there is no need to cut any BP loads in the future. Easy peasy

Fun aint it?

Don't let the "low" BP pressures fool you. Full load BP pressures today are not the same as they were yesteryear. While modern BP pressures are between 6,000psi and 10,000psi pending which powders and components are used and how much, original BP loads in original brass produced a bit more pressures, based on my amature tests, between 13,000psi to 14,000psi. Those higher pressure BP loads did not have the same impact on the arms as did the same pressures as with the later faster burning smokeless powders. Winchester didn't use pistol powders in their factory 44-40 loads until about 1950 when they switched from a lower pressure rifle powder to faster burning, higher pressure ball powders. By 1978, they started using flake powders that resemble Unique.

If you are really bored, check out the 44-40 smokeless powder transition years
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/powder-transitions/smokeless-powders-transition-years