Heavy Duty CCW Pistol

[Lefty Red]

Lady Friend is getting serious. She is looking at training courses for us. :)
We was thinking about the pistol. I see no reason to use a G17 or G19 ( or M&P) sized pistol when we both carry smaller weapons. I like my XDSs, but not completely sold on them. She has her Shield she brought with her. But I don't see either one of these pistols holding up after a year of heavy use. Really any other pistols in this size range really isn't one I would want to shoot 1K-1400 rounds over two days or training. Or they won't hold up.

We can really only come to the conclusion to get Glock G26s. I just think that is our only option when you figure in the use and abuse it and its magazines will take.

Thoughts?

[Jupiter7]

Thoughts?

what kind of training? Gun fighting? Or true firearms self defense classes?

I know now the little G26 or M&Pc or XDsc(or new Mod2) will hold up. Not sure about the XDs or shield or even my little Kahr will run 1000+ in a 2day period. Not sure I'd wanna put that many through a 7 shot single stack the size of my wallet. Personally I'd never own the XDs in 9mm as it is a .45 sized gun. I'm not a glock guy but have owned them and currently own one but I have to say, mine always ran and ran well.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

why would you trust a G26 more then your XDs

[too many things]

1000 to 1400 for training? in 2 days you might be in wrong country at $20 a box

[FergusonTO35]

Glock 26 with Ghost Edge connector, or (if you can find one) S&W 10 or 64 with 3" barrel.

[Bored1]

http://www.jgsales.com/smith-wesson-64-revolver,-38-special,-4-barrel,-ny1-finish,-dao-bobbed,-vg-condition,-used,-s-w.-p-67407.html

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411545791

http://www.recoilgunworks.com/glock-40sw-pistol-night-sights-very-good-condition-p-24720.html

http://www.shoparizonafirearms.com/product.glock-23-gen-3-pistol-40-sw-le-trade-in-w-2-mags-12-127

Just a few ideas. . . .

[MattOrgan]

Take what you are going to carry, I have no experience with XDSs, but a S&W Shield should outlast you, and I suspect the Springfield would too. Train with your everyday holster ,magazine carrier, and clothing if you are going defensive pistol class. If you are going to a "tactical" or "games"class equip and dress accordingly. You'd be ahead to shoot what you have, spend the money on ammunition or components for practice. Its been years since I felt the need to think up an argument to justify a new gun, I've matured. I just ask my wife for permission now��

[9mmsubgun-m11]

If you have smaller hands and insist on an auto loader a SIG P228 in 9mm is a fine option. A SIG P239 is an even smaller option. I have both and love them.

[FergusonTO35]

Sig makes great pistols. A lady friend of mine has the P250 compact and loves it. If you like a long but smooth and light DAO the 250 is just outstanding-and cheap too!!

[Petrol & Powder]

If we're talking about a polymer framed, striker-fired, semi-auto pistol; I think the Glock 26 is a fine choice. The steel framed Kahr's are excellent guns and are basically steel, single stack Glocks. Not sure I'd want to put 1500 rounds through one in two days but I'm certain the gun could take it. Polymer framed Kahr pistols are Ok in 9mm but I've seen a lot of failures in the 40 cal polymer models.

It's bit exotic but the H&K P7M8 is fairly compact and very reliable. Due to the operating system they get rather hot during long strings of fire and they are pricey. The older H&K P7 or PSP model uses a heel style magazine release (which is a good thing when you only have the one magazine in the gun) and it's is similar to the P7M8 in functioning.

It's a shame that Remington didn't get all of the bugs out of the R51, I think it's a good concept but it clearly needs some development.

The SIG 225 (P5) is an incredibly tough gun. They feed and function about as well as a Glock and I know it will hold up under heavy use. It might be just a tad too big for CCW but it's on the line.

In the unicorn territory there's the Walther P5 Compact. They only made about 3K of them and if you can find one, they're not cheap. It is about 1/2 shorter than the regular P5 and has a 1911 style magazine as opposed to the P5's heel mag release.

The Glock platform is well proven and very reliable. The Model 26 is a bit blocky for a concealed carry pistol but small enough to fill that role. I've never understood why some people feel a need to obtain some alternant to a Glock that shares all of the Glock's features but isn't a Glock. If you want a polymer framed, striker-fired, double stack magazine, semi-auto pistol with a square cross section slide that locks the barrel to the slide via the front edge of the square ejection port......Buy a GLOCK! They work!

In the revolver territory, there are a lot of good options but the OP said pistol not revolver.

[Petrol & Powder]

I see that someone listed the SIG 239, I forgot about that one and I would add that to the list as well. The P228 is basically a P225 with a double stack mag. Another good choice if it's not too big for your needs. At that size I would probably just step up to a Glock model 19.

[Lefty Red]

Thoughts?

what kind of training? Gun fighting? Or true firearms self defense classes?

I know now the little G26 or M&Pc or XDsc(or new Mod2) will hold up. Not sure about the XDs or shield or even my little Kahr will run 1000+ in a 2day period. Not sure I'd wanna put that many through a 7 shot single stack the size of my wallet. Personally I'd never own the XDs in 9mm as it is a .45 sized gun. I'm not a glock guy but have owned them and currently own one but I have to say, mine always ran and ran well.

CCW and Combat Pistol training.
I question my XDS after breaking it down and cleaning it on it's 1000 round check. After messing with Glocks, the XDS feels pretty cheap in the inside.
I own both the 45 and 9 in the XDS. They seem great for up to 100-150 rounds. I just don't see them running the full two day course. Her Shield I think it borderline as well.

[Lefty Red]

why would you trust a G26 more then your XDs

The Glock operated flawless. The XDS needs allot more lube and touch ups very 200 rounds or so. Plus the XDS feels cheaper in the inside.

[Lefty Red]

1000 to 1400 for training? in 2 days you might be in wrong country at $20 a box

I have been buying Federal AL casing and TulAmmo for $9.95 a box of 50. I buy 3-5 boxes a payday for stock piling for training.

[Lefty Red]

Glock 26 with Ghost Edge connector, or (if you can find one) S&W 10 or 64 with 3" barrel.

IF I can find a 3" 64! I would carry it til I die!
That is what I am thinking, the G26 is the best all around CCW pistol. But ours will be stock or with the NY trigger.

[robertbank]

For both purposes take a look at the CZ P-01 or the 75D Compact. Both guns are as accurate as a full size gun and are dead nuts reliable. I would think either would be more accurate than any of the striker fired guns mentioned here. The P-01 is the duty pistol for the Czech National Police and has been extensively tested by them. A quick google search will give you a lot of information on the guns and the testing that went with them.

Take Care

Bob

[Lefty Red]

Take what you are going to carry, I have no experience with XDSs, but a S&W Shield should outlast you, and I suspect the Springfield would too. Train with your everyday holster ,magazine carrier, and clothing if you are going defensive pistol class. If you are going to a "tactical" or "games"class equip and dress accordingly. You'd be ahead to shoot what you have, spend the money on ammunition or components for practice. Its been years since I felt the need to think up an argument to justify a new gun, I've matured. I just ask my wife for permission now��

The classes we are looking at are very practical. But we did meet at a IDPA match! :)
I just want to get and carry what I train with. I had high hopes for a G19 size pistol, but just not as practical as I had hoped for.

[Lefty Red]

If you have smaller hands and insist on an auto loader a SIG P228 in 9mm is a fine option. A SIG P239 is an even smaller option. I have both and love them.

The SIg P228 is what I would really like, but its rarer thatn hen's teeth around here. I will not buy a weapon without first looking it over.

[bedbugbilly]

I'm just curious so will ask. 1K to 1,400 rounds and it won't hold up.

If you take a Shield (and I have no experience with one other than to know they are well liked by their owners) . . . . they work the same each time they shoot . . a cartridge enters the chamber, it goes bang, the bullet leaves the barrel and another cartridge feeds in. So . . . . .

What difference does it make if you shoot 1K to 1,400 over two days . . . or you go to a range every week, or for that fact, once a month . . . and each time you put 100 rounds through it? Over time, you will put many K rounds through it. In a training course, it's not like you are going to be feeding loaded magazines into the pistol one right after the other for an 8 hour day is it? I can see putting a magazine in, emptying it, switching out and starting up again . . maybe even 3 or 4 but based on what I've seen at some ranges . .. some guys do this anyway - it seems to be about quantity and not quality.

So, I don't get how running a K to 1,400 through your handgun in two days is any different than putting that amount through it over an extended period of time. Yea, it may gum up if you don't clean it at some point, but I know guys who only clean their semis on an infrequent basis.

I've looked and shot a lot of handguns over the past 50 years and I've never seen one with a "counter" in the handle that says . . . you have fired too many rounds, your gun is now "no good"?

I'm really not being critical or nasty . . . I just don't see the issue?

[Lefty Red]

If we're talking about a polymer framed, striker-fired, semi-auto pistol; I think the Glock 26 is a fine choice. The steel framed Kahr's are excellent guns and are basically steel, single stack Glocks. Not sure I'd want to put 1500 rounds through one in two days but I'm certain the gun could take it. Polymer framed Kahr pistols are Ok in 9mm but I've seen a lot of failures in the 40 cal polymer models.

It's bit exotic but the H&K P7M8 is fairly compact and very reliable. Due to the operating system they get rather hot during long strings of fire and they are pricey. The older H&K P7 or PSP model uses a heel style magazine release (which is a good thing when you only have the one magazine in the gun) and it's is similar to the P7M8 in functioning.

It's a shame that Remington didn't get all of the bugs out of the R51, I think it's a good concept but it clearly needs some development.

The SIG 225 (P5) is an incredibly tough gun. They feed and function about as well as a Glock and I know it will hold up under heavy use. It might be just a tad too big for CCW but it's on the line.

In the unicorn territory there's the Walther P5 Compact. They only made about 3K of them and if you can find one, they're not cheap. It is about 1/2 shorter than the regular P5 and has a 1911 style magazine as opposed to the P5's heel mag release.

The Glock platform is well proven and very reliable. The Model 26 is a bit blocky for a concealed carry pistol but small enough to fill that role. I've never understood why some people feel a need to obtain some alternant to a Glock that shares all of the Glock's features but isn't a Glock. If you want a polymer framed, striker-fired, double stack magazine, semi-auto pistol with a square cross section slide that locks the barrel to the slide via the front edge of the square ejection port......Buy a GLOCK! They work!

In the revolver territory, there are a lot of good options but the OP said pistol not revolver.

I totally argee with you.

[freebullet]

A sig p238 HD would be fun and take it, although you'd need a bunch of mags.

[Lefty Red]

I'm just curious so will ask. 1K to 1,400 rounds and it won't hold up.

If you take a Shield (and I have no experience with one other than to know they are well liked by their owners) . . . . they work the same each time they shoot . . a cartridge enters the chamber, it goes bang, the bullet leaves the barrel and another cartridge feeds in. So . . . . .

What difference does it make if you shoot 1K to 1,400 over two days . . . or you go to a range every week, or for that fact, once a month . . . and each time you put 100 rounds through it? Over time, you will put many K rounds through it. In a training course, it's not like you are going to be feeding loaded magazines into the pistol one right after the other for an 8 hour day is it? I can see putting a magazine in, emptying it, switching out and starting up again . . maybe even 3 or 4 but based on what I've seen at some ranges . .. some guys do this anyway - it seems to be about quantity and not quality.

So, I don't get how running a K to 1,400 through your handgun in two days is any different than putting that amount through it over an extended period of time. Yea, it may gum up if you don't clean it at some point, but I know guys who only clean their semis on an infrequent basis.

I've looked and shot a lot of handguns over the past 50 years and I've never seen one with a "counter" in the handle that says . . . you have fired too many rounds, your gun is now "no good"?

I'm really not being critical or nasty . . . I just don't see the issue?

No harm taken. I have training in both the military and DOC in CQB. We shot ALLOT of ammo. Weapons that are shot allot and ,as you would in a combat or riot type situation, get hot and wear and tear starts to set in on them. 1000 round through a handgun in a single training class in like 8 hours will show you the weakness of the weapon. Its being ran hard and not babied. Its getting hot, its getting dropped, its having its magazine slammed in it. That is different than when I am going to practice at the range. Maybe shooting 200 round in about an hour or two. Cleaning the weapon afterwards, and putting it up or carrying it.

I don't want to get to a class that is 4-5 hours drive from me and be with a broken weapon and have to borrow a weapon to finish with. Its likely not what I will be carrying and then waste my time.

[jumbeaux]

If there is a range in your area that has rental firearms check with them. They probably have rental guns that see several hundred rounds a day and would have a good history on durability. That being said I believe any good quality name brand would easily do the number of rounds you are talking about without difficulty. Just keep them well oiled and clean. Heck your fingers are going to wear out loading magazines before the pistol stops.

rick

[LUCKYDAWG13]

G17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqwPY-0UpjY

[FergusonTO35]

Oh, how about the Ruger SR series? Very nice guns and there are many on the Ruger forum who report thousands of rounds without a problem. In stock out of the box form I like them better than Glock.

[Petrol & Powder]

IF I can find a 3" 64! I would carry it til I die!
That is what I am thinking, the G26 is the best all around CCW pistol. But ours will be stock or with the NY trigger.

I know what you mean about the 3" model 64. I have a 3" model 65 and it's NOT for sale. I have a nice 2" DAO model 64 that I could part with....... :smile:. Eagle grips, bobbed hammer, polished trigger face.......

The Glock is an excellent choice. It is a well proven platform. They are durable, reliable and fairly good values. They are simple to use under stress and mags/holsters/etc are plentiful.
If you're going to go with that genre (polymer, striker-fired, etc.) there's no good reason to go with something based on a Glock that is not a Glock.
Glocks are not real pretty but they are damn sure tough fighting tools and that has a beauty all to its own.

[Petrol & Powder]

G17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqwPY-0UpjY

Glock model 17 that wants to be a Glock model 18 ?
Entertaining but not terribly useful.

[MtGun44]

You act like this is a lot of shooting, it is not.

I have multiple 1911s that have well over 50,000 rds through each one and
they are fine.

Why not a 1911? Much flatter and easier to conceal than those fat double stack
guns with a 50% wider slide, too.

Bill

[Lefty Red]

You act like this is a lot of shooting, it is not.

I have multiple 1911s that have well over 50,000 rds through each one and
they are fine.

Why not a 1911? Much flatter and easier to conceal than those fat double stack
guns with a 50% wider slide, too.

Bill

Over the life time of a weapon, no 1k-2k rounds is not allot. But in a 48 hour period, it is.

Why not a 1911? Well, I like that platform, but for me its not an option for me to carry daily.

Jerry

[LUCKYDAWG13]

why not call the school and ask what they suggest. i bet that they say bring the gun you plan to carry you have the XDs
and you like it. if you think its to small then pick up a XDm its on the same platform as your XDs
http://www.gunsite.com/category/gunsite-videos/

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Glock model 17 that wants to be a Glock model 18 ?
Entertaining but not terribly useful.
i put that link up just to show the abuse a plastic pistol can take

[Love Life]

If your chosen defense gun will not stand up to 1,000-1,400 rds in a 8 hour or 48 hour period, then you need to buy a different brand. The Glock will certainly stand up to that firing amount and schedule. Your already owned guns most likely will as well. Most 1911's made today will.

People overthink all this stuff. As long as your gun is well maintained it will do fine. Get a stoppage? So what, clear it and continue the course. Gun breaks? Well...that sucks but now you have a tangible reason to look for another gun. The purpose of these courses is to test yourself and gun. I do not see the point of taking a different gun than you will be carrying.

Honestly, the Glock 26 is great, but fat. Now the new Glock 36S is about perfect. Me? I'd take a HI-Point just cuz.

[Petrol & Powder]

i put that link up just to show the abuse a plastic pistol can take

I got it. I wasn't making fun of you and there's no doubt in my mind that a Glock can take a lot of abuse.
Full auto in a pistol is sort of amusing. Not useful but amusing.

[Bonz]

Love my Sig P239 .40 but the barrel is just about 1/2" longer than what I like to carry IWB. I prefer the 3" or shorter. Picked up a Sig P290RS-EDC 9mm at Palmetto State Armory a month ago and absolutely love it, especially for $299. It was designed for police as a backup weapon. Several friends have fired it at the range, it has a smooth revolver like trigger, some like it, some don't. Every time I go to the range, I shoot 100-200 rounds thru it.

And http://palmettostatearmory.com has them in stock for $279 now

THE P290RS SUB-COMPACT 9MM, is Sig Sauer's newest polymer pistol. Designed to be the ultimate in conceal carry. This unique 9mm pistol is the perfect small defense handgun that meets the demands of today’s law enforcement professionals as a backup duty gun, and responsible citizens as a conceal carry gun.

[Bonz]

I have been buying Federal AL casing and TulAmmo for $9.95 a box of 50. I buy 3-5 boxes a payday for stock piling for training.

Some great deals from http://www.freedommunitions.com every once in a while

[winelover]

Watched a video of Beretta testing a Nano. They put 1000 rounds through it, continuously, without even lubing. I bought one and kept track of the number of rounds I fired. I shot it for a couple of months and would average @ 150 rounds a session.
Cleaned it and lubed after each session. At @ the 800 round mark the recoil spring assembly failed and tied up the gun. Contacted, Beretta and they sent a replacement. I'm currently at the 900 round mark on it and so far it is holding up. Do I trust it? No. That's why I bought a spare recoil spring assembly and dedicate that one for concealed carry. Other than that I'm pleased with it as a CC piece. I'm a southpaw and appreciate it's ambidexterity. No safety or slide stop in the way.

Winelover

[robertbank]

To the OP take a moment and read up on the CZ P-01 and the test trials it endured to meet the Czech National Police standards. The testes would make your week-end classes look like child's play. This is from the CZ website:

The pistol was required to pass a wide variety of tests:

The police required that the pistol ensure the highest level of comfort, an extended slide release was added as well as an extended magazine release and the trigger was reshaped to give a more consistent pull throughout the trigger stroke.
The pistol must be 100% reliable in extreme conditions, the following is a list of some of the minimum requirements.
Must be able to complete the following without failure:
4000 dry firings
3000 De-cockings
Operator level disassembly 1350 times with out ware or damage to components.
Complete disassembly 150 times, this is all the way down, pins, springs etc.
100% interchangability, any number of pistols randomly selected, disassembled, parts mixed and reassembled with no failures of any kind including loss of accuracy.

Safety requirements:
Drop test1.5 meter (4.9”) drop test, this is done 54 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked. Dropping the pistol on the butt, the muzzle, back of the slide, sides of the gun, top of the slide, in essence, any angle that you could drop the gun from. This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.
3meter drop (9.8”) 5 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked, This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.
After these tests are complete the gun must fire without service.

The factory contracted an independent lab to do additional testing on guns that previously passed the drop tests. These pistol were dropped an additional 352 times without failure.
The pistol must also complete an environmental conditions test:
This means cold, heat, dust/sand and mud.
The pistol must fire after being frozen for 24 hours at –35C (-36F).
The pistol must fire after being heated for 24 hours at 70C (126F)
The pistol must fire after being submerged in mud, sand and combinations including being stripped of oil then completing the sand and mud tests again.

Service life:
The service life requirement from the Czech police was 15,000 rounds of +P ammo!
The pistol will exceed 30,000 rounds with ball 9mm.

Reliability:

The reliability requirements for the P-01 pistol are 99.8%, that’s a .2% failure rate.
This equals 20 stoppages in 10,000 rounds or 500 “Mean Rounds Between Failure” (MRBF)
During testing, the average number of stoppages was only 7 per 15,000 rounds fired, this is a .05% failure rate, a MRBF rate of 2142 rounds! Over 4 time the minimum acceptable requirement.
The U.S. Army MRBF requirement is 495 rounds for 9mm pistols with 115 grain Ball ammunition.

[exile]

I have never taken a training class, but I would think that a Glock 26 might cause some fatigue after a certain # of rounds. If you carry a Glock 26 I would buy a Glock 19, shoot it for the course, and then sell it later if you need to. My favorite LGS says they almost never see used Glock 19's and have trouble getting new ones. When they do, they are sold quickly. If a Glock malfunctions, there is sure to be a Glock armorer on hand, magazines are plentiful, parts are cheap, etc.,. Shooting your concealed carry piece in extended training sounds admirable, but it would not be my plan. Don't most training classes recommend a spare gun as well? Maybe mine is an uninformed opinion, but after spending ridiculous amounts of time and money, I would hate to have to go home because my untested back-up gun failed.

Were I in your shoes, I would take a Glock 19, 17, or 34, and probably a spare one too. (A Glock 17 mag works in a Glock 19, but not the other way around, so, two Glock 19's?)

I am really curious as to what you decide and would like to hear about your experience when you are finished. Maybe it would help me make an informed decision in the future, should I be so fortunate to have such an opportunity.

God bless, and I hope you enjoy your training.

exile

[exile]

I have never taken a training class, but I would think that a Glock 26 might cause some fatigue after a certain # of rounds. If you carry a Glock 26 I would buy a Glock 19, shoot it for the course, and then sell it later if you need to. My favorite LGS says they almost never see used Glock 19's and have trouble getting new ones. When they do, they are sold quickly. If a Glock malfunctions, there is sure to be a Glock armorer on hand, magazines are plentiful, parts are cheap, etc.,. Shooting your concealed carry piece in extended training sounds admirable, but it would not be my plan. Don't most training classes recommend a spare gun as well? Maybe mine is an uninformed opinion, but after spending ridiculous amounts of time and money, I would hate to have to go home because my untested back-up gun failed.

Were I in your shoes, I would take a Glock 19, 17, or 34, and probably a spare one too. (A Glock 17 mag works in a Glock 19, but not the other way around, so, two Glock 19's?)

I am really curious as to what you decide and would like to hear about your experience when you are finished. Maybe it would help me make an informed decision in the future, should I be so fortunate to have such an opportunity.

God bless, and I hope you enjoy your training.

exile

[Petrol & Powder]

robertbank - That CZ P-01 is an impressive pistol. It's actually just a little bit smaller than a Glock 19, which is my standard in that class of pistol. If the specs are true, it's about 1/4" shorter overall and 1/4" in height. Aluminum frame, steel slide, de-cocker, double stack magazine; looks like a good pistol. I like CZ products, they generally have good designs.

exile- Totally agree with you concerning the G19. The Glock model 19 is an outstanding tool. I consider that to be the gold standard of pistols below full size pistols and above compact pistols. The G19, IMHO, is the best compromise when one is seeking something just a little bit more "concealable" that a Model 17, 22, etc. It's not as small as a G26 but it is much easier to shoot than subcompact G26.

[nagantguy]

Oh, how about the Ruger SR series? Very nice guns and there are many on the Ruger forum who report thousands of rounds without a problem. In stock out of the box form I like them better than Glock.

Do not over look the Ruger SR series in the MI cpl classes we run, they have become the house favorites, 4 of them in all flavors 22 on up have been used hard and kept dirty for a long unbroken streak of reliability. As a matter of fact one of the sr .22 s just went down, after 3 years and around 10,000 rounds someone dropped it and broke the take down gate/ lever. Even in the advanced classes several students a day will use them, maybe because their edc weapon broke, maybe because their edc gun is something they can't shoot well whatever, universally people like how they feel function and shoot. My brothers sr9 has seen literally thousands upon thousands of rounds over the last 2 years, idpa training etc the only mod its had is the Galloway precision guide rod and spring. We have by not cleaning them and lubing them tried to induce failures with the sr's we use for the classes and its almost impossible to do, a squib load stuck in the barrel is the only thing I can think of that has put one out of action other than the 22. What they offer at that price point is very hard to beat... This is my experience with them I have no connection to Ruger . I hope this helps.

[nagantguy]

To the OP take a moment and read up on the CZ P-01 and the test trials it endured to meet the Czech National Police standards. The testes would make your week-end classes look like child's play. This is from the CZ website:

The pistol was required to pass a wide variety of tests:

The police required that the pistol ensure the highest level of comfort, an extended slide release was added as well as an extended magazine release and the trigger was reshaped to give a more consistent pull throughout the trigger stroke.
The pistol must be 100% reliable in extreme conditions, the following is a list of some of the minimum requirements.
Must be able to complete the following without failure:
4000 dry firings
3000 De-cockings
Operator level disassembly 1350 times with out ware or damage to components.
Complete disassembly 150 times, this is all the way down, pins, springs etc.
100% interchangability, any number of pistols randomly selected, disassembled, parts mixed and reassembled with no failures of any kind including loss of accuracy.

Safety requirements:
Drop test1.5 meter (4.9”) drop test, this is done 54 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked. Dropping the pistol on the butt, the muzzle, back of the slide, sides of the gun, top of the slide, in essence, any angle that you could drop the gun from. This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.
3meter drop (9.8”) 5 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked, This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.
After these tests are complete the gun must fire without service.

The factory contracted an independent lab to do additional testing on guns that previously passed the drop tests. These pistol were dropped an additional 352 times without failure.
The pistol must also complete an environmental conditions test:
This means cold, heat, dust/sand and mud.
The pistol must fire after being frozen for 24 hours at –35C (-36F).
The pistol must fire after being heated for 24 hours at 70C (126F)
The pistol must fire after being submerged in mud, sand and combinations including being stripped of oil then completing the sand and mud tests again.

Service life:
The service life requirement from the Czech police was 15,000 rounds of +P ammo!
The pistol will exceed 30,000 rounds with ball 9mm.

Reliability:

The reliability requirements for the P-01 pistol are 99.8%, that’s a .2% failure rate.
This equals 20 stoppages in 10,000 rounds or 500 “Mean Rounds Between Failure” (MRBF)
During testing, the average number of stoppages was only 7 per 15,000 rounds fired, this is a .05% failure rate, a MRBF rate of 2142 rounds! Over 4 time the minimum acceptable requirement.
The U.S. Army MRBF requirement is 495 rounds for 9mm pistols with 115 grain Ball ammunition.

Now that is a test, I've always liked cz and the ones I've owned have always ran this seems like another level of reliability altogether!

[robertbank]

Nagantguy I have the PCR or 75D which is the same gun without the rail. They are shooters. I can't tell the difference between the Compact vs 75B in terms of accuracy. The Compacts like the P-01 are just that good. I know the Glocks have their fans and with good reason but they are no more reliable than most modern guns despite the myth that Glock has cloaked them in. They are relatively inexpensive but I am quite certain the CZ would be far more accurate than the Glock. The OP is concerned about durability. Well the tests are there for anyone to read. I wush him well. Choices.

Take Care

Bob

[freebullet]

You mentioned having an xds. I know the full size xd will take it, I bet the xds would too. Otherwise an AK is cheap and durable.

[exile]

Just saw an ad for used Glock 19's at aim surplus for $ 389.95. Thought you might want to know.

exile

[Groo]

Groo here
I have run my share of classes.
The round count will not be a problem, a little lube will not be a problem, a bore snake for the barrel [ 3 passes] not a problem.
Any gun listed will most likely go the whole class with NO attention.
The only problem will be the HEAT......
The plastic guns "might" start to get soft. [I doubt it!]
The metal guns WILL get hot.
The largest problem will be the plastic recoil spring guide.
They will melt or break. [ have spares- cheap] Glocks are reaily rated for 1000 rds.
If you keep oil or grease on the slide , barrel , frame, and sear all will be well.
Run what you carry, good time to break it in.

[MtGun44]

1000 to 1500 in one or two days is still not a lot of shooting for the gun. It IS
a lot of shooting for the shooter! :bigsmyl2:

I am guessing you must not be comfortable with locked and cocked carry, is
that the issue with 1911 "not for everyday carry"? If it is, I can assure you that it
is an erroneous worry. With a thumb and grip safety the gun is absolutely
safe that way. Folks will carry a pump, double barrel or semiauto shotgun
all day in the field with the INTERNAL hammer(s) back and only ONE safety and
not think a thing about it, but a VISIBLE hammer back with TWO safeties is
too scary for many.

Bill

[Lefty Red]

If there is a range in your area that has rental firearms check with them. They probably have rental guns that see several hundred rounds a day and would have a good history on durability. That being said I believe any good quality name brand would easily do the number of rounds you are talking about without difficulty. Just keep them well oiled and clean. Heck your fingers are going to wear out loading magazines before the pistol stops.

rick

Rick,
Between the two of us, we have the three pistols. And side my side and shooting them, I don;t think they will hang with the G26.

[Lefty Red]

Do not over look the Ruger SR series in the MI cpl classes we run, they have become the house favorites, 4 of them in all flavors 22 on up have been used hard and kept dirty for a long unbroken streak of reliability. As a matter of fact one of the sr .22 s just went down, after 3 years and around 10,000 rounds someone dropped it and broke the take down gate/ lever. Even in the advanced classes several students a day will use them, maybe because their edc weapon broke, maybe because their edc gun is something they can't shoot well whatever, universally people like how they feel function and shoot. My brothers sr9 has seen literally thousands upon thousands of rounds over the last 2 years, idpa training etc the only mod its had is the Galloway precision guide rod and spring. We have by not cleaning them and lubing them tried to induce failures with the sr's we use for the classes and its almost impossible to do, a squib load stuck in the barrel is the only thing I can think of that has put one out of action other than the 22. What they offer at that price point is very hard to beat... This is my experience with them I have no connection to Ruger . I hope this helps.

I have never shot a SR on a course or for any extended time, but if Ruger made the P95 in a compact pistol I WOULD CARRY IT! LOL That is one bullet proof pistol. I would even use the P89ish series. The P91 (I think) was the 40 S&W model and it was a great shooting pistol. I would carry one in a heartbeat.

[Lefty Red]

Groo here
I have run my share of classes.
The round count will not be a problem, a little lube will not be a problem, a bore snake for the barrel [ 3 passes] not a problem.
Any gun listed will most likely go the whole class with NO attention.
The only problem will be the HEAT......
The plastic guns "might" start to get soft. [I doubt it!]
The metal guns WILL get hot.
The largest problem will be the plastic recoil spring guide.
They will melt or break. [ have spares- cheap] Glocks are reaily rated for 1000 rds.
If you keep oil or grease on the slide , barrel , frame, and sear all will be well.
Run what you carry, good time to break it in.

I plan on it!
Thats for the input Groo, always look forward to it.

The G26 and XDS both have metal guide rods. I and pretty sure the Shield does too, but will check.

For everyone that is wondering, I am not knocking Glock or S&W or SA. They are all pretty much the same pistol. But after close inspection, the G26 is just put together better I think. And that is what is giving me second thoughts on the other two.

[Lefty Red]

Just saw an ad for used Glock 19's at aim surplus for $ 389.95. Thought you might want to know.

exile

I have a G19 and two G17 pistols. I used the G19 for IDPA and when I was helping out with CCW classes. I think Glock is a good pistol. Hell, I think the M&P is a great pistol!

But I am talking about pistol, every day carry, that might not be built like a duty weapon.
But thanks for the heads up!

[Lefty Red]

I know what you mean about the 3" model 64. I have a 3" model 65 and it's NOT for sale. I have a nice 2" DAO model 64 that I could part with....... :smile:. Eagle grips, bobbed hammer, polished trigger face.......

The Glock is an excellent choice. It is a well proven platform. They are durable, reliable and fairly good values. They are simple to use under stress and mags/holsters/etc are plentiful.
If you're going to go with that genre (polymer, striker-fired, etc.) there's no good reason to go with something based on a Glock that is not a Glock.
Glocks are not real pretty but they are damn sure tough fighting tools and that has a beauty all to its own.

I had an old Taurus 3" SS model that would shoot all day long. Really liked that pistol. Ex's bother's ex wife still has it. She says it was the best thing she ever got in the marriage. I have to agree with her. :)

[Lefty Red]

Nagantguy I have the PCR or 75D which is the same gun without the rail. They are shooters. I can't tell the difference between the Compact vs 75B in terms of accuracy. The Compacts like the P-01 are just that good. I know the Glocks have their fans and with good reason but they are no more reliable than most modern guns despite the myth that Glock has cloaked them in. They are relatively inexpensive but I am quite certain the CZ would be far more accurate than the Glock. The OP is concerned about durability. Well the tests are there for anyone to read. I wush him well. Choices.

Take Care

Bob

Yep, that "Perfection" **** makes me mad! Glock is do "upgrades" but never a recall.
But I do have a few of their larger weapons and they are a good solid platform.

And yes, after everyone copied Glock, the modern day striker fired pistols are just as reliable.

I like the P01. Just can't find them around here. And the magazines are pretty pricey!
But I would consider them if I was looking at a G19/23 sized carry weapon.

Jerry

[clum553946]

How about a glock 27? You can get a 9mm barrel & a few g26 mags for conversion & you have more flexibility

[Lefty Red]

How about a glock 27? You can get a 9mm barrel & a few g26 mags for conversion & you have more flexibility

Not really, you need to swap out the ejector to get a constitant ejection. Seen too many in a basic CCW class that failed or damaged the existing ejector.

Plus, 40S&W is not what I want to go with in a CCW weapon.

Jerry

[cwheel]

Don't know how many rounds a Xds will go. But after breaking it in some, I got 2500 down the tube and it still looks and works as new. Only failure I've ever had in this was when Love Life fired it last Feb, and he figured it out quickly. I had some old reloads I used up getting it broke in. These had some feeding issues with my old 70's series Colt, the XDs had no issues. Durable enough I think. What is more important is you train with what you will carry, no matter what it is, and not have it so big or heavy that it stays in the truck or at home in the safe. That XDs is at the upper limit I have for size and weight. Mid summer with lite clothing it's a little Kel-Tec P3AT 380. As a person doing CCW, not a LEO, my job is to just stop the fight and be able to leave alive, file the report. Lots of better pistols out there, but not being a LEO having to actively chase the bad guys, train with one you are going to have with you.
Chris

[Lefty Red]

Don't know how many rounds a Xds will go. But after breaking it in some, I got 2500 down the tube and it still looks and works as new. Only failure I've ever had in this was when Love Life fired it last Feb, and he figured it out quickly. I had some old reloads I used up getting it broke in. These had some feeding issues with my old 70's series Colt, the XDs had no issues. Durable enough I think. What is more important is you train with what you will carry, no matter what it is, and not have it so big or heavy that it stays in the truck or at home in the safe. That XDs is at the upper limit I have for size and weight. Mid summer with lite clothing it's a little Kel-Tec P3AT 380. As a person doing CCW, not a LEO, my job is to just stop the fight and be able to leave alive, file the report. Lots of better pistols out there, but not being a LEO having to actively chase the bad guys, train with one you are going to have with you.
Chris

Can't agree with you more Chris. My days of chasing down felons or responding to terror threats are long gone. Now I just want to get out of there with those I hold dear!

I have the XDS in 45 and 9. I haven't had a problem with either. I just think they MAY NOT hold up to the large amount of shooting in those 48 hours. But I could be wrong. I just would hate to have to finish up the course with the 45ACP! LOL

Lady Friend's Shield is well built. Better than the G42 IMHO. Don't think it will waiver.

I think we just might get LF a 2nd Shield and me some extra ammo for the 45ACP and those will be our backups in case the primary weapon fails during the training. We would both rather just have the same weapons, but we both are very interested to see how these (Shield and XDS) will hold out in such an environment.

[Love Life]

Don't know how many rounds a Xds will go. But after breaking it in some, I got 2500 down the tube and it still looks and works as new. Only failure I've ever had in this was when Love Life fired it last Feb, and he figured it out quickly. I had some old reloads I used up getting it broke in. These had some feeding issues with my old 70's series Colt, the XDs had no issues. Durable enough I think. What is more important is you train with what you will carry, no matter what it is, and not have it so big or heavy that it stays in the truck or at home in the safe. That XDs is at the upper limit I have for size and weight. Mid summer with lite clothing it's a little Kel-Tec P3AT 380. As a person doing CCW, not a LEO, my job is to just stop the fight and be able to leave alive, file the report. Lots of better pistols out there, but not being a LEO having to actively chase the bad guys, train with one you are going to have with you.
Chris

IIRC, I was holding the gun like a sissy.

[Lefty Red]

IIRC, I was holding the gun like a sissy.


You do have to hold on for dear life with the XDS!
But I was surprized at the felt recoil on such a gun. Not bad at all. Well, til you start throwing 230 grain +Ps thru it!
My 200gr FMJ RN is a very good shooting load.

[tygar]

Hell, I don't even know what those guns your talking about are or their calibers & I've got probably a million rounds down range.

I carry a lot of different guns, depending on situation. Have used many of them on varius kinds of shoots, but when it's putting 1 or 2 k down range in a day or 2 it's almost always one or 2 of my favorite Combat Commanders. Have several tricked out & stock & I either use my Tim Thompson custom S80 or a early stock S70. They will just keep on ticking & being all steel are easier to shoot all day.

[cwheel]

Love Life, I prefer to think you were just working out your grip on that first shot. Looking forward to seeing you get back here. P.S. got a nice buck out of Risue Canyon this fall.
Chris

[robertbank]

Yep, that "Perfection" **** makes me mad! Glock is do "upgrades" but never a recall.
But I do have a few of their larger weapons and they are a good solid platform.

And yes, after everyone copied Glock, the modern day striker fired pistols are just as reliable.

I like the P01. Just can't find them around here. And the magazines are pretty pricey!
But I would consider them if I was looking at a G19/23 sized carry weapon.

Jerry

Jerry the P-01 will take regular CZ mags as well for added rounds and a few less reloads. Try CZ Custom in Phoenix, AZ they should have one. The 75-D is the identical gun W/O a FLDC. I preferred it and bought it over the P-01. Just personal preference.

Take Care

Bob

[Petrol & Powder]

You lost me with "FLDC" ?

[robertbank]

Full Length Dust Cover

Bob

[Petrol & Powder]

Ah, thank you!

[Lefty Red]

Hell, I don't even know what those guns your talking about are or their calibers & I've got probably a million rounds down range.

I carry a lot of different guns, depending on situation. Have used many of them on varius kinds of shoots, but when it's putting 1 or 2 k down range in a day or 2 it's almost always one or 2 of my favorite Combat Commanders. Have several tricked out & stock & I either use my Tim Thompson custom S80 or a early stock S70. They will just keep on ticking & being all steel are easier to shoot all day.

So true. The heavy, steel, full sized weapons have no problem normally. But I don't carry them daily. I am looking for a true CCW weapon that I will carry daily that will hold up to that kind of use. I want to train with what I carry.

Jerry

[Lefty Red]

Jerry the P-01 will take regular CZ mags as well for added rounds and a few less reloads. Try CZ Custom in Phoenix, AZ they should have one. The 75-D is the identical gun W/O a FLDC. I preferred it and bought it over the P-01. Just personal preference.

Take Care

Bob

Thank you.

[Piedmont]

Lefty Red, If you get a chance handle a Kahr K9 sometime. It is all steel and a single stack DAO. It is my favorite in this class. It is heavier than polymer guns, but not too heavy. It is the smallest gun that shoots like a bigger gun that I have found. Some don't like the weight. Some don't like the low capacity (7+1). Some don't like the DAO trigger. It is small and flat, though, and I can get my whole hand on it. The grip is one of the best I have ever felt.

[MtGun44]

Well, the Glocks are on their 4th Gen now, slowly evolving.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127516&d=1421305697

:kidding:

Bill

[LUCKYDAWG13]

almost like trying to find the best fishing lure. i like the looks of the new Glock looks like it would last over a 100 years ^^^^^^

[Petrol & Powder]

[QUOTE=MtGun44;3092919]Well, the Glocks are on their 4th Gen now, slowly evolving.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127516&d=1421305697

Hey Bill, the Flat Earth Society called; they said congratulations - you're the sole remaining member in the western hemisphere. :bigsmyl2:

[robertbank]

Well, the Glocks are on their 4th Gen now, slowly evolving.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127516&d=1421305697

:kidding:

Bill

Proof positive we just add accessories until the gun becomes a jamaholic.[smilie=b:

Take Care

Bob

[nicholst55]

If your chosen defense gun will not stand up to 1,000-1,400 rds in a 8 hour or 48 hour period, then you need to buy a different brand. The Glock will certainly stand up to that firing amount and schedule. Your already owned guns most likely will as well. Most 1911's made today will.

People overthink all this stuff. As long as your gun is well maintained it will do fine. Get a stoppage? So what, clear it and continue the course. Gun breaks? Well...that sucks but now you have a tangible reason to look for another gun. The purpose of these courses is to test yourself and gun. I do not see the point of taking a different gun than you will be carrying.

If my everyday carry piece wouldn't stand up to firing 1,500 rounds in two days, it would be for sale. I would definitely bring a spare gun (with mags, holster, and mag pouch), just in case my EDC broke during the course.

[rmcc]

Sig 228. Period.

[Lefty Red]

almost like trying to find the best fishing lure. i like the looks of the new Glock looks like it would last over a 100 years ^^^^^^


Kind of. But I think its more like finding the pistol that will last for carry and training.

[Lefty Red]

[QUOTE=MtGun44;3092919]Well, the Glocks are on their 4th Gen now, slowly evolving.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127516&d=1421305697

Hey Bill, the Flat Earth Society called; they said congratulations - you're the sole remaining member in the western hemisphere. :bigsmyl2:

Kicking and screaming is the way most will be dragged to the 21st century. :)

[Lefty Red]

Sig 228. Period.

I totally agree!

[Petrol & Powder]

Just so everyone knows, I have a lot of respect for MtnGun44 and my post was pure jest.

The 1911 was an outstanding design and it continues to be an excellent gun. There are some people that adhere to that platform and others that go a different direction. I carried a 1911 Lightweight Commander for a few years and owned several 1911 style pistols. I don't have nearly the number of 45 ACP rounds fired that MtnGun44 has but I was a competent operator of John Browning's pistol. I never felt it was a bad option but I did come to think there were other options.

There was a time when the 1911 was really the only choice for a full size semi-auto pistol for serious social work. We have more options now. I don't think the 1911 is a bad choice but I certainly don't believe it is the only choice.

[Petrol & Powder]

Sig 228. Period.

I had a SIG 228 (Va. State Police trade in) It was an outstanding pistol and I only parted with it because it was worth more to someone else than it was to me. I still have a SIG 225 (P5) which is close to the same gun with a single stack magazine.
I would put the 228, 225 and Glock 19 all in the same class. Compact, reliable, affordable and tough.
I will say that the stamped steel slide of the 228 is a bit more to my liking than the forged steel slide of the 229. The bottom halves of those two pistols are almost identical but there's a bit of weight saving with the stamped steel slide and no lose of durability that I ever saw.

[robertbank]

Just so everyone knows, I have a lot of respect for MtnGun44 and my post was pure jest.

The 1911 was an outstanding design and it continues to be an excellent gun. There are some people that adhere to that platform and others that go a different direction. I carried a 1911 Lightweight Commander for a few years and owned several 1911 style pistols. I don't have nearly the number of 45 ACP rounds fired that MtnGun44 has but I was a competent operator of John Browning's pistol. I never felt it was a bad option but I did come to think there were other options.

There was a time when the 1911 was really the only choice for a full size semi-auto pistol for serious social work. We have more options now. I don't think the 1911 is a bad choice but I certainly don't believe it is the only choice.

All in fun, breaks the seriousness.:p

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

Just so we're clear, the fifteenth generation Glock is the Browning High Power!!

[robertbank]

Yup and the sixteenth is the CZ 75B series

Take Care

Bob

[Love Life]

Just go whole hog and get a SRH in 454 Casull...

[Lefty Red]

Just so we're clear, the fifteenth generation Glock is the Browning High Power!!

The Hi Power is just about perfection......

[Lefty Red]

Just go whole hog and get a SRH in 454 Casull...

Now we are talking some serious training!

[MtGun44]

The problem of a reliable, accurate, powerful and durable semiauto handgun was solved
conclusively by John Moses Browning in 1911, although there have been some improvements in
sights and the tendency to bite about 10-20% of shooters with fleshy hands. Since then,
second-rate tinkerers have been fiddling around and proudly proclaiming a NEWER and BETTER
handgun design every year or two since. As Col Cooper said after examining a dbl action
S&W 59 "What an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem."

Yawn. :D

A bit like a nice carpenter's hammer. You can fru-fru it as much as you want, add a fiberglass
handle and colored rubber grip, chrome it, polish it, make it out of titanium or whatever you want. But
you know, a regular 1900-era 16 oz claw hammer with a hickory handle will work perfectly well
for a lifetime and the nails and houses cannot tell the difference.


127781 127782

127783


:bigsmyl2:

Bill

[tygar]

The problem of a reliable, accurate, powerful and durable semiauto handgun was solved
conclusively by John Moses Browing in 1911, although there have been some improvements in
sights and the tendency to bite about 10-20% of shooters with fleshy hands. Since then,
second-rate tinkerers have been fiddling around and proudly proclaiming a NEWER and BETTER
handgun designs every year or two since. As Col Cooper said after examining a dbl action
S&W 59 "What an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem."

Yawn.

A bit like a nice carpenter's hammer. You can fru-fru it as much as you want, add a fiberglass
handle and rubber grip, chrome it, polish it or whatever you want. But you know, a regulation
1900-era 16 oz claw hammer with a hickory handle will work perfectly well for a lifetime and
the nails and houses cannot tell the difference.

:bigsmyl2:

Bill

They have been trying to build this better mouse trap thing forever but as you have noted - the "original" still does everything it was built to do & all that the "new" ones actually do & just as well as they do, & usually better, with less problems & more accuracy.

Ol' Mr. "B" knew his stuff

[Lefty Red]

They have been trying to build this better mouse trap thing forever but as you have noted - the "original" still does everything it was built to do & all that the "new" ones actually do & just as well as they do, & usually better, with less problems & more accuracy.

Ol' Mr. "B" knew his stuff

The Model T was the original car. But we found our way to modernize and improve it.

I don't understand the lure of the 1911 just because it was "the first". And if we take that line of thinking, then we should be talking about matchlock shoulder fired weapons. We got away from matchlocks to flintlocks to percussion caps to loaded rounds. Then from single actions to double actions in revolvers. I am old enough to remember the new 3 digit models from S&W. That changed everything! Finally a reliable semiauto pistol for LEOs. And if I remember right, the 1911 or S&W 39 was about the only other pistols used at the time. Hmmm, if shooters were looking for a "answer to a non existant problem" then why were they welcomed and their design improved to today's models. Guess others are not so well informed or enlightened as certain other people that cling to their holy traditions of worshiping at the 1911 alter.

But I do understand the lure of the 1911 as a historical piece in weapon development. Just like the old BP revolvers and SAA. First 1911 I shot was in 38 Super. I competed with it before and during breaks in Desert Shield/Storm sorties. Cool pistol. Even carried it as a side arm when we was on the bottom of the list to get the M9s. Never had one that we couldn't put together from left over WW2 pieces and that wouldn't hit the 7 ring in a man size target at 21 feet. They rattled and we lubed then with trans axle grease, but they ran all day. But I was very glad to get the M9. My unit was one of the first to be trained with the, then new, WML and we kicked butt in the trails against the 1911 and hand held lights in a CQB and room clearing exercises.

So it only took four pages before the 1911 fanatics threw the thread off track. Not bad.

Jerry

[Love Life]

Mateba...in 454.

1911 is great, but there are new designs that are without a shadow of a doubt as reliable as a 1911 and carry more ammo than the 1911. They may not be as purdy, but they do the job.

We can talk accuracy as well, but I'd stick one of the custom Beretta's (Sam's or Mountain Competition) against any tricked out 1911 for accuracy shooting any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

The OP was/is interested in a Glock. He did not mention a 1911 nor ask for a 1911 VS whatever debate.

Can we move back to the op's subject?

[Certaindeaf]

"Heavy duty CCW pistols" are.. good. On more than one occasion have I fired 2000 rounds in two days and on a few occasions 1000 in an hour or two from a Hi-Power.

A good pistol should go to around 50,000 rounds reliably with even just minimal maintenance/cleaning/lubing and then often it's just a small part breakage to get her back in the game.

Many good suggestions have been given here but the common theme is do get and carry a heavy duty and proven pistol, especially if you're going to expect it to perform as a heavy "duty" pistol. Flavor of the week or even decade guns are and always have been suspect to me.. don't be a beta tester.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

1k between cleaning doesn't sound that unusual

any way if you go to a range that rents guns , ask how often they clean them , I think you will find them filthy , they have to clean the range every night , so they clean the guns when they need to , and that is not very often , but you should be able to get an idea of roughly how many rounds they get before they find they have to clean them or people have problems , remmber they rent the same guns they want to sell in the store so they want them to work but they don't want to waist time cleaning unnesicarily

I think you would be supprised how many run 1K with out a failure

now steel cased ammo is more prone to extraction issues at least in rifles , some manufacturers prefer you not use it , but you should definitely shoot what you carry and carry what you shoot

[dragon813gt]

Well I didn't read every post, to many of them. Only one pistol comes to mind when heavy duty is mentioned. And that's a CZ75 variant. I don't know Glock model numbers so I don't know if they are single or double stack. The 75s are on the big side and heavier. But they will take any punishment you can throw at them and are inherently more accurate due to design.

[robertbank]

GREENCOUNTRYPETE raises a good point. Of the mainstream pistols on the market today all are reliable. The only guns in competition that regularly fail are the 1911's tricked out for IPSC Open Division and Standard Divisions. Of these, the ones I have observed failed due to poor lubrication, as in none. I have seen broken extractors on Glocks fail. Other than that on a limited experience basis (8 State, 6 Provincial, about 60 Club Matches), the various makes have been trouble free. I believe Glock ads were the ones that convinced us all their guns were the standard for reliability, when in fact they were really no more reliable than many of the other mainstream pistols - as in who drops their pistols out of helicopters and when did that become a litmus test for a guns reliability?

To the OP it boils down to personal choice and availability. Draw up YOUR criteria and go find a gun to match it. When I wonder around the bush up here a Ruger 45Colt is on my hip but then what might threaten me is likely a lot different than what you likely think your threat might be. To me, in an urban environment something light would trump something heavy and what I could hit a target with at 15 yards in a hurry would trump something I could not shoot.

Take Care

Bob

[725]

As somebody above mentioned, Model 10. Built like a tank, but drives like a Cadillac.

[Certaindeaf]

As somebody above mentioned, Model 10. Built like a tank, but drives like a Cadillac.
Not a "pistol" but amen. A good revolver is nothing to be sneezed at.. 1000 round days included. I'd just say though that when reloading the gun, make sure that under the star is dry of lube and hold the gun perpendicular (muzzle up) to the earth when dumping the brass and if doing a "tactical" reload, have the star down all the way before plucking out those fired few.
One grain of unburned powder under the star can well tie up the gun.

[Groo]

Groo here
IF you want a gun that will go the hole class without, lube, cleaning, or attention I
have one word---- REVOLVER---

[Petrol & Powder]

Getting back to the original post for a moment. The OP is seeking options for a gun that can be concealed that is also durable and reliable. It is important to remember that the first C in CCW stands for Concealed. While many people routinely conceal 1911's, Hi-Powers, Glock Model 22's, 4" S&W model 29's and the like; there are many people that elect to go with something a bit smaller for daily carry.
Is a full sized pistol/revolver a better weapon compared to a smaller handgun? YES.
Can a larger handgun be effectively concealed? Absolutely!
Does everyone what to go about their daily activities with a full sized, steel framed duty pistol in an IWB holster? NO!!!

Although some gun is way better than no gun, I'm not advocating mouse guns. However there are a lot of viable options these days that are more easily concealed than full size guns and still very credible self defense weapons.

That brings us to the durability question. I agree that a lot of guns will go 1 - 1.5K rounds in a weekend without much trouble. However that's not what this is really about. When one shoots a particular firearm over many thousands rounds and a long period of time that gun becomes an instinctive tool that is almost a part of the shooter. That is one of the primary functions of extensive practice and that "bonding" between the shooter and his tools is an important part of survival. The last thing one wants is to become very familiar with a gun only to have it break or wear when that level of proficiency is reached.

I'll use a trap gun as an example: One can effectively break clay targets with a very inexpensive shotgun. I've seen it done many times. However Olympic class shooters often use a Perazzi shotgun. The Perazzi doesn't break targets any better than a $100 shotgun. Its strengths are: it is fitted to the shooter and more importantly, it is unlikely to wear out or break. Even if it does break, the trigger group is quickly replaceable. An Olympic class shooter will put 10's of thousands of rounds though their gun. The last thing they want is to "bond" with a particular gun only to have it wear out.

I suspect that gun/shooter bond is one of the reasons that people like MtnGun44 admire the 1911 so much. It is a good gun and they have become intimately familiar with that platform. They know it works and they don't see a need to change to something else. There's a lot of merit to that.

The OP wants a gun that he and his GF can: 1 easily conceal and carry daily, 2. Develop that instinctive familiarity with,
3. Will still be reliable after they build up that shooter/gun "bond" after heavy use.

[Petrol & Powder]

Groo here
IF you want a gun that will go the whole class without, lube, cleaning, or attention I
have one word---- REVOLVER---

:bigsmyl2: (or a Glock) :bigsmyl2:

[Certaindeaf]

That is one of the primary functions of extensive practice and that "bonding" between the shooter and his tools is an important part of survival. The last thing one wants is to become very familiar with a gun only to have it break or wear when that level of proficiency is reached..
Your whole post was smack on and very valuable.
The part I quoted here struck home with me though. There's a lot to be said for that concept. Even today with the many scores of perhaps wholly viable guns, I think it's in one's best interest to truly master one tool.. and a good tool. Back in my day, the 9 was third tit but I think like 90 (maybe it was 180.. I forget) countries used the Browning Hi-Power as their service pistol and I projected/visualized forward (I reloaded cast SWC's and JHP's and was young) and so chose that and don't regret it. I'd do it again given the same circumstances, of course, but the thing is, it's still quite viable and my neurons and synapses have become one with it.

[robertbank]

Groo here
IF you want a gun that will go the hole class without, lube, cleaning, or attention I
have one word---- REVOLVER---

I hope you are kidding! You better be shooting very clean ammunition. One grain of powder under the star extractor and you have a 50 ounce paperweight.

Take Care

Bob

[Certaindeaf]

I hope you are kidding! You better be shooting very clean ammunition. One grain of powder under the star extractor and you have a 50 ounce paperweight.

Take Care

Bob
I've shot probably a half million rounds out of centerfire revolvers and have never had that problem. Read post #95.
And a K frame is more like 32 oz.

[robertbank]

I've shot probably a half million rounds out of centerfire revolvers and have never had that problem. Read post #95.
And a K frame is more like 32 oz.

Good for you. Try shooting 1K rds of lead bullets without cleaning the gun and let us know how it works out for you. OK, a 32 ounce paperweight.

Take Care

Bob

[Certaindeaf]

Good for you. Try shooting 1K rds of lead bullets without cleaning the gun and let us know how it works out for you. OK, a 32 ounce paperweight.

Take Care

Bob
I've only ever mainly shot lead. What does that have to do with your tender "star" action anyway?

[robertbank]

I've only ever mainly shot lead. What does that have to do with your tender "star" action anyway?

Dirty is dirty. Fire your 1K rds without cleaning your revolver and let us know when the cylinder stopped turning. If you get that far try another 1k.

Bob

[Petrol & Powder]

".......I think it's in one's best interest to truly master one tool.. and a good tool........"

Many years ago, A very wise man relayed a phrase to me that was even older than he was, "Beware of the man with one gun, he probably knows how to use it!"

Those were true words then and they remain true to this day.

[Love Life]

I guess guns magically started being all **** right about the same time deer started growing Kevlar skin.

Take the guns you have and a spare if you have one. If they make it through the class then wonderful. If not then use that as a reason to buy another. Regardless, you still get the fundamentals you are after.

I've never been to a class because pistoleroing is really easy peasy common sense and can be practiced for free at the range or in front of the mirror.