If price were no object; which lathe for gunsmithing/

[wmitty]

Haven't got a rich uncle, but if cost was not a consideration, which lathe would you consider to be the ideal lathe for gunsmithing?

[country gent]

I would look at Monarchs and Hardringes and some others but those are very solid accurate machines. The actual machines are the cheap part of the investment. Its the tooling that runs the costs way up.

[izzyjoe]

Just my honest opinion, but find an older Leblanc, south bend heavy 10, or hardringe and you'll have something. But it all depends on what you want to with it, you can from mild to wild! A small machine will do the same work as a larger one to an extent, but it'll take longer! But with a larger lathe you cut more per pass, making the job faster. If a fellow starts out on a small lathe he will appreciate a larger one when it come time to up grade! Country gent is right, the lathe is cheap by comparison to the tooling, and extras that go along with it.

[MarkP]

Hardinge Super Precision

[John Taylor]

I have a problem with the "older heavy iron" machines. The spindle hole is usually very small compared to what is available today. I bought a Birmingham 14X40 gear head several years back because it had a spindle hole of 1.5". South Bend now has a 14X40 with the same size spindle hole but they are so proud of it that I could not find the price. It comes with a 5 HP motor and I find that my 3 HP is plenty. If money was no problem then I would be able to spend time shopping around. Right now I will have to make do with the three lathes and two mills already in the shop.

[DCM]

If cost and space were no problem, a large bore(for large OD barrels), Heavy for rigidity, 3 phase(for smooth operation), 42" bed min., with an oversized VFD for infinite speed adjustment, Big Heavy quick change tool post for rigidity again, a big shipload of threading pitches, set on its own Separately poured reinforced concrete base. So it would be quite different from what I can afford right now. :)

[scb]

http://www.haascnc.com/lathe_mt.asp?webID=TOOLROOM_LATHE#gsc.tab=0

[Treetop]

Subscribed. I've been a machinist all of my life and I'll be retiring this spring. My mind is already made up re: a vertical mill (J head Bridgeport) but I still haven't decided on a lathe. Tt.

[country gent]

We had a warner Swasey lathe that had an 8 1/2" spindle bore thru the head stock. Wasnt needed very often but on the occasion it was nothing else compared. This machine had a 50 HP motor and hydronic head drive on it. 1 1/2" on a sdie turning and drilling a 3" hole at the same time barley made it work. The hardringes I ran had 1 7/16' or so spindle bores thru them. The monarchs were 1 3/8" . A lot of the old small "hobby" type machines were under powered and had small spindle holes. One piece of tooling to consider for a lathe that is usefull is a taper attachment if available. The first is a 3 axis readout X,Y, and tail stock spindle. I also perfer the D series chick mounts on newer equipment. A removable bridge is nice, but for most work not needed. A good solid bed on any machine is really important. Some tooling can be made easily for the lathe ( boring bars, drive dogs, dead centers, ).

[bob208]

i have the perfect lathe. a 14 1/2 inch south bend with 8 foot bed. I can get 5' between centers it has a 1 1/2 " through hole guick change gear box and taper attachment. and it is paid for.

[DCM]

http://www.haascnc.com/lathe_mt.asp?webID=TOOLROOM_LATHE#gsc.tab=0

I wasn't thinking CNC but I think this would most definitely fit the bill!

[seagiant]

Hi,
MONARCH!

[akajun]

The cnc hass listed above, with a tru bore alignment system chuck.
If you had to go strictly manual, used, anything 14x40 that is still tight with a tru bore alignement system chuck.
New, a Standard Modern 14x40, kingston 14x40, again with true bore alignment system.

[Blanket]

Haas cnc toolroom lathe

[gzig5]

If you want to chamber through the headstock, the Hardinge and Monarch 10EE will pose some problems due to the spindle bore diameter or length. I think I'd lean towards a 14" EMCO or Nardini. I also liked my 14" Rockwell but it was wore out when I got it. Right now I have a SB Heavy 10 with 4' bed and it will suffice.

[MtGun44]

Hardinge.

Bill

[30Carbine]

Bob208 I got the one just below yours the southbend 13inch 6ft bed, 1941 or 1942 hard to bet them old girls. I also have 3 cnc machines so I am set already.

[paul h]

I don't know if the ideal gunsmithing lathe exists. I assume you're talking about one for chambering barrels, as that is primarily what a gunsmith does? To me the ideal lathe would have a relative large spindle bore to allow barrels of differing dia's and configurations to be held in the 4 jaw and supported with a spider, but you also need a headstock that isn't too long or you'll only be able to support barrels 24" or longer. It would be a variable speed lathe, massive and rigid for doing the best work.

Of the two wonderful toolroom lathes mentioned, the Monarch 10EE and the Hardinge HLV they both come up short as a gunsmiths lathe. The spindle bore is too small in dia, the bed is too short on the 10EE, and while the HLV is a wonderfully precise lathe I would prefer a more massive and rigid lathe like the 10EE.

Now, if you could make a 10EE with a 36" bed and a 1 3/4" or 2" spindle bore and a headstock that would support a 20" barrel from the 4 jaw and a spider you'd have IMHO to perfect gunsmith lathe. Well, except it would be over $100k and no gunsmith could afford such a tool as you could chamber barrels to the necessary precision for gunsmithing with a $5-10k Asian lathe.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The absolute high point of the engine lathe was, and still is, the Mori Seiki Engine Lathe. They are 17 x 40 or 60 and are the best hand operated machine tool I have ever touched. I have ran 50 different types of engine lathes and tool room lathes including Cadillacs, Sigma Tos, Axelsons, Webbs, Okumas, Warners, South Bends, Logans, Clausings, and a bunch of others as well.

This is a machine where when you dial in an offset the machine takes exactly that much material off. They do exactly what you tell them too do everytime ,,, period!


As far as Toolroom Lathes go, the Hardinge HLV is in my opinion the best due to the threading system and I have ran Monarch 10EE's as well, including a brand new one that the shop paid $72,000 for. Yes the final price on 10EE's was that much. The biggest problem with the Toolroom lathes is their small size and low HP.

The Mori Seiki is a real Engine Lathe with a 7.5HP motor and is big enough that you can do lots more work on it than a Hardinge can. Same or better level of precision as well.

That said I am looking for a Hardinge for my shop. Since I don't have enough power to run the Mori.

One small point that is often overlooked and that is that Hardinge Lathes are only 1HP,,, which kind of limits them.

One last point, the OP asked the "Ultimate Lathe for a Gunsmith?"

That really needs to be an Engine Lathe, not a small Toolroom Lathe. It has to be big enough to turn a barrel between centers and most Toolroom Lathes are not .

My .02 on this subject.

Randy

[Rifle 57]

This is what I use to chamber barrels 15x50 Colchester this is about as good as it gets.127745

[leebuilder]

If money were nothing and i had 3 phase to the house
Dean Smith and Grace. The benchmark of lathes. With all the goodies too
I have a Smithy LTD 12×20 it has limits, but it makes me a better craftsman. And it is accurate.

[dave 45-90]

Southbend 16" x 8' Belt drive and it will thread any pitch American......Parts are still available for the old girl and ebay is a good source to.
Bought it 20 yrs ago for 2500 reconditioned along w/J head Bridgeport which I converted to single phase

[theperfessor]

Rifle 57 - I've got a twin to your Clausing sitting in my shop where it does yeoman work. There may be better but the Clausing is awfully good if you know how to use it.

[Rifle 57]

Rifle 57 - I've got a twin to your Clausing sitting in my shop where it does yeoman work. There may be better but the Clausing is awfully good if you know how to use it.

Yes perfessor I agree with you. Okumas, Mori Seiki , and some of the others listed may be a little better but not that much. All I use the Colchester for is barrel jobs and I have two other lathes for the rest of my needs. 16x40 True Turn
127796

13x40 MSC
127797

[scb]

Nice thing about a cnc lathe is you can cut ANY chamber you want and never buy a reamer. Also threading is a snap, in any pitch you can think of.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Boring a chamber on a CNC lathe is not an easy job, mainly because you'd have a small boring bar hung out a mile to get to the bottom of the hole, and it probably is not going to work like you think it will. I assure you it is not the best way to do the job and it is not going to be easy to get it to run. It is possible, it is just not practical. If it was practical nobody would use reamers now.

Another little tidbit,,, things don't magically fly off CNC machines. Someone who knows what he is doing has to program that machine. Programming a machine to do one part is not a good idea, and anyone who has done it knows that there will probably need to be several parts made before the actual desired result is obtained.

There is kind of a bunch of other factors that come into the picture when actually using an automated machine, and the kicker is that you first must know how to make the parts you want to produce on the machine. After you know how to make parts, then you can tell a machine to do it for you.

The biggest misconception out there is the unacknowledged fact that you must tell your CNC machine every single move to make during the cycle of operation to make that one part. There is NO Program that does it for you. There are ones that can help but at the end of the day you still have to tell the machine every move to make, and you have to be able to tell if that helper program has screwed you or not.

It's called "Editing the Program." And is a necessary function. When you read the code you must be able to translate each line into a machine movement in your head,,, and do it right! Crashing a CNC Machine is expensive! I have learned this the hard way.

Believe me I designed and built CNC machines, I have used them extensively, it ain't that easy and anyone who thinks they are going to bypass a bunch of schooling and actual work gaining experience in a shop by buying a piece of CNC machinery is in for a rude and probably very expensive lesson.

They are machines, and just like every other kind of machine they don't run themselves, and I rue the day when they can run themselves.

They will figure out rather quickly what a PITB Humans are!

Randy

[DCM]

Nice thing about a cnc lathe is you can cut ANY chamber you want and never buy a reamer. Also threading is a snap, in any pitch you can think of.

I just gotta ask. How many have you done like this? With Exactly what tooling and program?
I must admit I am an extreme hobbyist only when it comes to machine work, but I spend a lot of time fixing and installing all types of tooling and have yet to see a chamber cut this way. I learn a lot from the folks that really know how to run the machines.
I am Not sayin it can't be done, I just want to know how to do a typical rifle cartridge chamber accurately without a reamer, especially in small caliber bores.

[country gent]

Even a solid carbide boring bar would be to the point of small and brittle. A high speed steel would be small and springy. Another issue would be getting the appropriate "finish" in the chamber with these small long bars. The CNCs would be great for contours of the radious type, or tapers. For making molds the cnc would allow a way undersized cuter to be used blocks closed and a circle pocket type program to be used. On some profiles a small end mill cat cut it on apiece of stock and then sawed of stock. But for one offs and a beginner can be a pain. Every move has to be programed including the up move wheen going "home to zero", Ive seen and had some interesting oops learning these machines.

[M-Tecs]

Nice thing about a cnc lathe is you can cut ANY chamber you want and never buy a reamer. Also threading is a snap, in any pitch you can think of.
I have access to both along with solid carbide boring bars. Tool deflection and finish in the throat are the biggest challenges to overcome. Sounds easy however reality is much different. Carbide reamers are my preferred method unless it’s something like a 44/40, 45 colt or 45/70.

[dh2]

I would have to goo with the gear driven Goodways simple operation and very precise

[EDG]

I have ran many nice lathes but the 15" LeBlond Regal seemed to have been the best among about 50 different turning machines. That said such a lathe is a waste to most gunsmiths who can get by with a $2500 Chinese machine.
Barrel work is easy to do. The precision is actually in how you set up the machine and chuck the work.

For everyday dies, sizers and other reloading gadgets I would much rather have a tool room lathe.

For making multiple items, the little Hardinge second op machines are very versatile and you can make several items without investing a lot in setup time or special tools.

As far as boring a chamber on a lathe you can do some chambers like that. But I am talking about short, fat and straight. Say you might chamber a .44 Magnum rifle barrel as long as you understand the effects of hanging a long skinny boring bar out too far.

I once opened up a .40-70 - 2.5 Sharps Straight chamber on an original Remington Hepburn.
It was a ticklish set up using that long skinny bar. The chamber neck was one of the undersize paper patch chambers that would not accept a groove diameter bullet unless the brass was turned way too thin - .003. The boring operation was easy after getting the boring bar set. However the material remove was just a straight bore and about .005 per side done in 2 passes.

I would not have wanted to do this job on a CNC.
CNCs are for making new stuff in quantity, they are not suited any kind of general repair or rework.

[Jeff Michel]

I use a Clausing 8000 15x50 for big stuff and an Enco 12x36 for everyday wear and tear and have a Myford Super 7B because they are real cute and fun to play on. I think in most cases, it's less the lathe than the guy using it. A good hand can turn out good parts on marginal equipment and I've seen a bunch of scrap made on equipment that cost more than a nice home. Like girls, I like all of them.

[AJB]

I spent some time researching lathes to replace my old Craftsman 12x36 and settled on the Harrison M300, the inch/metric Standard Modern 1334, and the inch/metric Standard Modern 1340 as my top choices.

It took a full two years to find one that was well equipped, in decent condition, at a price that I could afford, and close to where I live. What I ended up buying is an inch/metric Standard Modern 1334 and so far I am very happy with my choice.

The one thing it doesn't have that would be nice is a brake...I may remedy that with DC Braking on the VFD I have running it. I think it could be done with the addition of a DC braking resistor at minimal cost.

[theperfessor]

Some lathes seem to be easier to run than others. It's the ergonomics, the human/machine interface, where the knobs and levers and such are located and how they operate. A lathe with poor ergonomics will leave you exhausted at the end of a day, but people who just run one an hour or two as a hobby will never notice. No different than a gun, the ergonomics are everything.

[Rifle 57]

Some lathes seem to be easier to run than others. It's the ergonomics, the human/machine interface, where the knobs and levers and such are located and how they operate. A lathe with poor ergonomics will leave you exhausted at the end of a day, but people who just run one an hour or two as a hobby will never notice. No different than a gun, the ergonomics are everything.

Exactly why I like my Colchester the controls are set up to be user friendly you might say. Who ever designed it new what they were doing for sure.
Loren

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I had two 11 inch Logan lathes but I really wanted a 12 inch Clausing.

[Geezer in NH]

Haven't got a rich uncle, but if cost was not a consideration, which lathe would you consider to be the ideal lathe for gunsmithing? A CNC no doubt

[oldred]

Another little tidbit,,, things don't magically fly off CNC machines. Someone who knows what he is doing has to program that machine. Programming a machine to do one part is not a good idea, and anyone who has done it knows that there will probably need to be several parts made before the actual desired result is obtained.Randy

Not trying to highjack this thread since this does relate to what you saying about the CNC equipment, what would you consider to be the simplest and easiest to understand design software for a beginner with just basic computer skills? Having such software is something I have been thinking a lot about but maybe I'm asking too much, is it even practical without some kind of formal instruction?

[M-Tecs]

Oldred

I would recommend you play with some of the free stuff like these https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=free+cad/cam+software

In the shop we run MasterCam but $14,000 for the program and $1,500 a year for the maintenance/update programs it is cost prohibited for most.

Some other option here:

http://americanmachinist.com/cadcam-software/most-popular-cadcam-package-best

http://www.cnccookbook.com/MTCNCSoftware.htm

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/uncategorised-cam-discussion/74629-cnc-software.html

http://machinedesign.com/cad/3d-design-software-free-asking

Cad only

http://cad-software-review.toptenreviews.com/

http://download.cnet.com/windows/cad-software/

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cad-cam/entry-level-inexpensive-cad-cam-software-home-use-263977/

[theperfessor]

Sorry, for general gunsmithing and most one-piece jobs CNC isn't what is needed. CNC is for batch/mass production. I'm not a gunsmith, but I've put a whole lot of chips on the floor with both manual and CNC machines.

CAM software is handy but for what I do I write the code in Notepad. A CNC file using G&M codes (which drive 90+% of the CNC machines in the world) is simply a plain text (ASCII) file. I have even written programs on my iPad and emailed them to myself so I can use my home computer to transfer them to a USB drive.

I use a 15 year old CAD program (CadKey 98) that still works fine even under Win 7. I realize at some point I may have to upgrade my skills and my CAD program but so far it does everything I need to do.

CNC isn't magic, CAD isn't magic, and CAM isn't magic either. They are just tools. They are good for doing some things, not so good for other things.

It's a lot easier to teach a machinist how to program a CNC machine than it is to teach a programmer what they need to learn about machining. I respect anyone who puts forth the effort to learn new things.

[DCM]

I agree that a CNC is not needed but this is a dream thread and sub routines would make CNCs a feasible reality for general smithing for those that could afford it. "Change is just around the corner". For really scary stuff look up lights out machining. PLCs +CNCs = lights out machining. The future is coming Fast.
One of the top single point cut rifled barrel makers is essentially using CNCs to cut rifle barrels rather than the old proven sine bar. His former employer said it couldn't be done! Never say never.

[targetfreak]

Hardinge tool room lathe. Used one (in industry) for ten years, wish I could get one for home.

[cwheel]

The most user friendly general purpose lathe I've ever run was the twin to the Colchester 15x50 in the picture on the first page of this thread. Price being no object, sure, but that won't make the CNC lathe the thing to have at home. Unless you have 3 phase 240 volt service, you won't run the 7 1/2 hp. Colchester either. I ended up with a Birmingham 14 x 40 to be able to power at home and still run small jobs. Grizzly sells a 14 x 40 gunsmith lathe that looks nice as well. 220 volt single phase with 2 hp. Lots of good iron out there. Most of the nice older old iron has been worn out to the point of needing a rebuild of some sort, and that will cost time and money as well. Most are to heavy and need special power. Newer imports don't approach the quality of the older lathes, but don't need rebuilding and will serve a retired machinist for a lifetime. 14 x 40 with a 1 1/2" spindle bore will do almost any gunsmith job and most of that type of work doesn't need high hp. Not going to be taking 1/4" cuts in 4140, no need for the hp. As others have said, tooling will be a big expense. On a new lathe, even Chinese, count on spending half the price of the new lathe on tooling. I'd love to park that Colchester in my shop, but all I could do would be to look at it and keep it oiled. Got to have the power to run it.
Chris

[Alan in GA]

As a beginner a little more than a dozen years ago, I was very happy with a like new Atlas/Craftsman 12 x 36 I found. It was 'top of the line' with Timken headstock bearings and Quick Change gearbox [a must]. It had a small 7/8" headstock spindle hole, but with a 36" bed I enjoyed threading/chambering between centers. I sold it, should have kept it, when I found a 'better' lathe, a Clausing 12x36 with large spindle hole.
A larger swing lathe can have a longer headstock spindle and as someone already mentioned, you can 'loose' shorter barrels inside the spindle [not be able to hold on both outside ends of spindle].
I think a 12" x 36" is perfect, and get one with a larger spindle hole for more use.

Be SURE to take an experienced machinist WITH YOU when shopping used lathes - they know what to look for [wear points] at used machinery. You want to work WITH your lathe, not ON your lathe.
Just my beginner's input.

[cwheel]

Forgot to mention American Pacemaker, much heavier duty than the Colchester. Same problem though, without 220/440 3 phase power, it's going to be tough to run even a 5 hp. lathe effectively in a garage. Even with a VFD phase converter, going to need lots of amps.
Chris

[ohland]

To be specific, a VFD or a geared head will make your life easier... Though nobody has mentioned it, an ENCO or Grizzly lathe can do a respectable job -BUT- you need to be able to drop the lathe down to a low speed. 60 RPM or less. When you thread, even though you are throwing the half-nut lever perfectly, 150 RPM is FLYING (IMHO). Get something with a reversible carriage travel. Futzing with drive belts and gears gets in the way of machining fun.

As always, what power do you have (115? 220? 1PH? 3PH?)