Suggestions for 311008 In 30-30 for 1,000 fps Loads

[Alan in Vermont]

Title pretty much says it all. I'm using the NOE version of the old Lyman 311008 which is dropping at 124 gr +/- .5 gr with my alloy. I can't find one lick of data for that boolit or anything similar in weight that would run around 1,000-1,100 fps.

I found data for that boolit in 32-20 but the only powder I have a supply that is listed is IMR-4227. I'm a little concerned about erratic ignition of 4227 in the much larger 30-30 case.

Don't have/can't find any Unique but I have a fair stash of Bullseye. I'm thinking 4.5-5 grs of BE might get me there.

[magyars4]

just checked my Lyman cast bullet handbook and for the #311465 ( 122gr ) there is nothing under 30-30
for either BE or IMR 4227.....but for 30 carbine they show 11 gr of IMR 4227 at 1426 FPS on a 120 gr pill and 13.1 for 1709 FPS

[Scharfschuetze]

Bullseye will work fine. My loading notes for the 30/30 show that 6.0 grains of BE behind a 130 grain cast boolit produced 1,295 fps. Drop down to 4.5 or 5.0 grains (as you've already surmised) behind your 124 grain boolit and you should get to your goal of 1,100 fps.

[Tatume]

Hi Alan,

Do you have H4895? Hodgdon lists data for a 165 grain cast bullet at 1350 fps, but you can apply the 60% rule and get well below that. I predict you can get into the high 900 fps range with your 130 grain bullet.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon%20H4895%20reduced%20rifle%20load.pdf

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

Take care, Tom

[35remington]

The sixty percent thing for 4895 applies to full power loads. 4895 is absolutely unsuitable for 1100 fps loads with this bullet as this is way too much reduction...this would be way more than 60 percent and in this pressure range 4895 works horribly. Somewhere between 3.5 to 4 grains Bullseye will get you there.

[Catshooter]

Alan,

I run five grains of Red Dot under the 3118 and it gets about 1400 fps from my 20"ers. I think your Bullseye guess would be right on.


Cat

[Tatume]

The sixty percent thing for 4895 applies to full power loads. 4895 is absolutely unsuitable for 1100 fps loads with this bullet as this is way too much reduction...this would be way more than 60 percent and in this pressure range 4895 works horribly. Somewhere between 3.5 to 4 grains Bullseye will get you there.

Not true. I've done it. Have you?

The 60% rule implies 0.6 x 21.0 = 12.6 gr. H4895. This charge should be right around 1000 fps. H4895 is perfectly suitable for this situation, and the reduction is not more than 60 percent. In this pressure range H4895 works well.

[BCB]

Not true. I've done it. Have you?

The 60% rule implies 0.6 x 21.0 = 12.6 gr. H4895. This charge should be right around 1000 fps. H4895 is perfectly suitable for this situation, and the reduction is not more than 60 percent. In this pressure range H4895 works well.

Hodgdon recommends 35 grains of H4895 as a maximum load for a 130 grain bullet...

So, 60% of that would be 21 grains as a starting load if I read the Hodgdon data and do the math correctly...

I have no idea what velocity you will get, although QuickLoad might give you some idea. I might run it through QuickLoad just out of curiosity...

OP should probably check that data though...

Good-luck...BCB

[Tatume]

Hodgdon recommends 21 grains of H4895 for a 160 grain CAST bullet. This datum can be safely substituted for a lighter weight cast bullet.

[BCB]

Just ran it through QuickLoad using a 130 Lyman boolit and it predicts 1384 fps with a pressure of 9146 psi...

I don't know how close this would be, but I suspect you will not achieve your goal of 1000 fps with H4895...

I agree that Bullseye might be your best bet. I have used various charges between 3.2 grains and 5.0 grains with a Lee 150 grainer. Velocities are 712 fps to 990 fps from a T/C Super 14". The 4.5 grains at 889 fps is the most accurate...

Good-luck...BCB

[BCB]

Hodgdon recommends 21 grains of H4895 for a 160 grain CAST bullet. This datum can be safely substituted for a lighter weight cast bullet.


Well if that's the case and 12.6 grains can be used, QuickLoad predicts 877 fps, at 3959 psi pressure which is amazing low. According to QuickLoad, a pressure of 1160 psi is required just to get the boolit to move. Of course all these numbers are predictions and not actual measured numbers...

But, I am unsure I would reduce such a light load, 21 grains, by 60%. That may be the recommended load, plus or minus, but maybe less than minus 60%...

I would be leary of a 60% reduction--but that's just me...

Good-luck...BCB

[BCB]

Hodgdon recommends 21 grains of H4895 for a 160 grain CAST bullet. This datum can be safely substituted for a lighter weight cast bullet.

Yep, they do...

I checked the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and they don't even list H4895 for any of the cast boolit data they show for the 30-30 Winchester. Although, they do show IMR-3031, IMR-4198, and H-335 to name a few that are a bit slower burn rate than H4895. None of the recommended charges for these will get him anywhere close to 1000 fps...

I still say, "Bullseye"...

Good-luck...BCB

[44man]

I went through my well worn and tattered books and can't find much.
Maybe Bullseye is the best bet. It will probably be very position sensitive.

[BCB]

I went through my well worn and tattered books and can't find much.
Maybe Bullseye is the best bet. It will probably be very position sensitive.

Only in the past couple of years have I discovered the usefulness of Bullseye in all types of cartridges. As far as "position sensitive" this I don't know. The "position sensitive" subject has been well "hashed" several times here. I do tip the Contender upward before each shot. That may not be as easy if the OP is using a rifle...

But the Bullseye loads I shoot in the Contender are accurate to my standards...

Good-luck...BCB

[35remington]

Tatume, you've misapplied Hodgdon's recommendation of a 60 percent reduction of a FULL charge load. The cast bullet load is already reduced, thus cannot be reduced even more without getting into the miserable results area. This is way more reduction than 60 percent.

21 grains H4895 would be way faster than the 1000 fps the original poster desires if the correct 60 percent reduction is applied. By the time you try to get to 1000 fps using H4895, extreme velocity variations and very poor burning of the charge will result. Unburned powder willl be in vast abundance. H4895 was never intended to be run that low.

The OP should not bother to use H4895 for his intended velocity. It is everything having to do with absolutely unsuitable for such usage.

Yes, I've taken H4895 to near that low of a level. It is a mistake even at somewhat higher speeds than the OP desires. At 1000 fps it would, well, be an absolute misapplication of the powder.

[TXGunNut]

I've had good results with 2400 in some reduced loads with heavier boolits in the 30-30. I purchased a 314008 mould for 32-20's and always figured I'd try it in 30-30 someday, probably starting with about 12grs. 1000 fps would likely take even less powder.

[Doc Highwall]

I don't think I would want to use a powder any slower then Unique in a 30-30 for 1000-1100fps as there will not be enough pressure to burn consistent enough. Yes you can use slower powders but if you were to shoot it over a chronograph I think you would find the velocities all over the place.


Powders need a minimum amount of pressure to burn consistent or they will leave a lot of unburnt powder, some in the barrel and the rest blown out on the ground. Ball powders are the worse due to the coating giving them a narrower range of burning then extruded or flake powders.

[FredBuddy]

Over at the MarlinOwners.com site, there is a long, long thread over several years that looks at light loads for 30-30. It includes a chart that is a sort of synopsis of lots of experimentation. Myself, I have the Lyman 311008 mold and size to .310/.311 and with 6.0 Unique its a blast. The chart also lists Trail Boss, Blue Dot and others.

Since I get wheel weights for free, I figure it's costing me about 6 cents a round, less than today's 22RF stuff. I've also started to powdercoat these. Sure wish Spring was just around the corner !!!

[btroj]

I would be lookng at Bullseye or Trailboss for this loading. Like Doc said, slower than Unique is likely too slow. This from a guy who adores 2400 with cast but not at this velocity.

[44man]

Yet the question from me is WHY? The 30-30 at max is a ***** cat. A two year old can handle max loads. One of the most pleasant rifles to shoot.
Sorry but if a 30-30 is too much , maybe a .22 has too much recoil.
If wanted for squirrel hunting, that is fine but don't ever tell me it is to reduce recoil.

[Scharfschuetze]

Sorry but if a 30-30 is too much , maybe a .22 has too much recoil.

Sometimes you see the stupidest things posted in these threads and they are usually of absolutely no value to the discussion at hand.

I've loaded thousands of 30/30, 30/40 and 30/06 squib loads. Many the kids shot while learning to shoot and many I shot at the indoor pistol range at one of my old Army units. Squib loads in a 1903 30/06 dropped a dump truck full of jack rabbits and other vermin in my youth.

Want to talk about recoil? I've shot 300 magnums, 8mm Lapua magnums and Mk 107 50 cal sniper rifles in training and on deployments and I have a pretty good retirement check as a result. The biggest weapon that I've ever fired was an 8" howitzer for fun. Yet, because I don't mix up ego with fun, I have no problem shooting squib loads in any of my rifles and in fact I enjoy it quite often. Don't think that I need anyone's permission or approval to do so.

[rintinglen]

In teaching my daughters to shoot I loaded many hundreds of 311-419's over 8 grains of Unique, as well as a fair few pounds of 311-245's. I never tried to go down to the 1000 fps level, but did find that lighter loads tended not to be as accurate. I have used the 311-008 as well, but again, at higher velocities than you are seeking. A friend uses 5 grains of Red Dot with the 32-98 SWC RCBS boolit, but I have not tried that.

[BCB]

Bullseye power…

Lee C309-150F…

CCI-200…

T/C Super 14” 30-30 Winchester…

Groups at 50 yards—Red dot aim-point is bit over ½” for reference…

Just plain fun to shoot—Even at a life-sized steel groundhog at 150 yards—lots of holdover and plenty of time to take a sip of your favorite beverage before you hear the “ting”. But you got to listen closely!!!...

Good-luck…BCB

[CGT80]

Yet the question from me is WHY? The 30-30 at max is a ***** cat. A two year old can handle max loads. One of the most pleasant rifles to shoot.
Sorry but if a 30-30 is too much , maybe a .22 has too much recoil.
If wanted for squirrel hunting, that is fine but don't ever tell me it is to reduce recoil.

Something smells like BS in here!

The 30-30 may be a ***** cat to you, in the firearm that you have shot it from, but that may not apply to everyone. The two year old comment is absurd, but I am sure that was your intent. It sounds like you might be one of those guys who only drives your Corvette at 200 mph, because anything less is a waste.

I have a little experience with the 30-30, hence why I had to call BS. You are entitled to your opinion, but I have met people who can not shoot full power loads due to injuries and others (including myself) who can shoot full power but choose something a bit softer shooting. My opinion is that light loads have some great uses.

I used to shoot 22lr like it was cheap................well it was. Since then, I have picked up my grandfather's Win 94 lever gun in 30-30. It is a short rifle, maybe better called a carbine? I cast some boolits and worked up some loads. The first time I shot it, was with full power jwords and IMR 4895. It kicked about like my dad's heavier 30-06. It wasn't a problem, but I no longer have the desire to shoot a bucket full of full power loads in a day, like I did as a teen.

The club I belong to has a lever gun silhouette match. I used some more full power loads to do the match, the first time. They worked, but the recoil got old and I found that the steel plates didn't need that hard of a hit to knock over. Many guys use cast bullets. My go to load is an NOE Saeco 315 180 grain bullet, plain base, at 1300 fps. It is much more fun to shoot than full power. The Winchester that I shoot is short, light, and has no recoil pad. The lighter loads are cheaper to shoot as well. This light load does well enough that I have place 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in my first year of doing this match (only to 110 yards) while shooting against guys that have done this for years. This rifle is more fun to shoot than my 22 and it costs less.

There are a number of reasons for me to reduce the 30-30, but recoil is a good one and reduction of noise is another. I double up on ear pro, but my ears can't take what they used to.

While I understand that some people only want to use full power loads and they want to push the firearm and themselves as far as possible, I can understand why a person, like the OP in this thread, would look for a reduced load.


Trail boss is great for soft shooting loads. It makes my Win 54 30-06 bolt gun a ***** cat. I ran a 150 jword with TB and got 1200 fps. "The Load" with red dot gave me 1400 fps. I didn't try a light cast boolit or bullseye powder. TB isn't cheap, so I settled with red dot and then switched to Herco. Herco is great in the 30-30 as well. Based on what I have read about bullseye, it would be my first choice for a light boolit in the 30 cal guns.

All the posts on bullseye in a rifle made me want to try it with a RCBS 30 115 GC, which I use for the 30 carbine, but my go to load with a 180 at 1300 fps works well and is so easy to shoot, that I have not tried it yet. Anyone who can safely hold the Win 94, has been able to handle the light recoil of the 1300 fps load. It give a little bump or push, not more than my 7 pound 223 AR 15 (with a comp to keep the muzzle down) that I use for 3 gun competition. I still wonder if I am missing out though, as I haven't tried a lighter load in the 30-30.

Red Dot powder worked well for my neighbors 35 Remington chambered Marlin 336. He said the full power loads kicked a lot. I fired one and it wasn't even near what a full power load in my Win 94 felt like. I came up with a load that is just over 1,000 fps with a 357 copper plated bullet and red dot powder. It impressed me when I nailed an 8" steel plate over and over at 100 yards with that bullet and light load. I thought about using it for the lever competition, but it may not knock the steel down as easily and I didn't want to load more ammo than I had to since I was doing it single stage. All of my ammo is loaded on Dillon 550, 650, and 1050 machines. He hasn't shot it yet, but it will perfectly fill his needs of a plinker that even his wife can shoot. He only owns that one center fire firearm, and he doesn't have a 22 LR.

[TXGunNut]

Squib loads are fun! Great opportunity to shoot hunting rifles without using much in the way of powder and lead. I find a light load (14-16gr) of 2400 in a 30-30 under a normal weight boolit to be very enjoyable compared to a normal load, looking forward to a lighter boolit but not sure I'll be able to get it down to 1000fps. Guess that's why I like my 32-20. Good thread, looks like we need a little range time to gather data.

[Doc Highwall]

I am shooting plain base bullets out of my 30-30 because I can. I have a SAECO #315 mould that I made into a plain base mould by machining out the gas check feature along with a 311041PB from NOE and a group buy from LEE. I use around 7-8 grains of Unique for a 22Lr velocity making it very enjoyable shooting.

I am making some special dies as of right now for the 30-30 including a sliding chamber with a floating set of expanders in .0005" increments to go along with the set I have for my 308. These floating expander dies work so well that I am designing some for my 223. 6mmBR. 6.5mmBR, and 7mmBR.

[JWFilips]

Alan,
PM sent

[GabbyM]

My limited experience is I had ignision and squib issues with 8.0 grains of Unique under a Saeco 140 grain PB bullet and LR primers. So yes I'd chose Bullseye, 700X or similar fast powders.

[Alan in Vermont]

Yet the question from me is WHY? The 30-30 at max is a ***** cat. A two year old can handle max loads. One of the most pleasant rifles to shoot.
Sorry but if a 30-30 is too much , maybe a .22 has too much recoil.
If wanted for squirrel hunting, that is fine but don't ever tell me it is to reduce recoil.

Why? Because I want to, and the last I knew I didn't have to clear that with the likes of you.
How you come up with this is somehow about recoil I don't know, but even if it were it would be none of your business.

Where do you get off with your pontificating about how you are to be considered the supreme arbiter of what is the right way to do things?

Since you are unable to add anything to this thread please dry up and blow away.

[JohnH]

I shoot this boolit in 30-30 and 30 Herrett. 7 grains of Green Dot or Red Dot will do just fine, give you lots of cheep fun. Anything, anything slower than Unique is a waste of time. The boolit only weighs 115 grains, it' ain't got the weight to drive the pressure up to make anything slower than Unique ignite reliably. Boolit is not meant for high speed, nor pressure. It was designed for the 32-20 which is originated as a black powder cartridge, I doubt if the designer ever thought of the thing being driven faster than 1300 fps

[Catshooter]

Alan,

In all the bruhahah I think you may have missed my post at #6. I've done what you're asking about and your thoughts were right on. Go for it and ignore the fool.


Cat

[w30wcf]

Alan,
Some years ago I did test 4.5 grs. of Bullseye under a 100 gr RCBS cast bullet in the .30-30. Average velocity was 1,159 f.p.s. (20") 1,185 (26") In testing, I did place the powder to the back of the case by raising the muzzle momentarily with the action partially closed, then closing the action when it was pointing at the target.

I also shot quite a few 311008 in testing to replicate the early, historic .30-30 "Short Range" factory cartridges. Unfortunately I did not try Bullseye but by interpolation in the difference in velocity between the same charge of 4756 (6 grs) under the 100 RCBS and 311008 (1244 / 1163), the 4.5 / Bullseye would likely give just under 1,100 f.p.s. with the powder positioned to the back of the case.

I did test 4227 under the 311008 and it worked very well again with the powder positioned to the back of the case. 10.5 grs produced 1,218 f.p.s. in the 20" barrel and 1,298 f.p.s. in the 26".

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/30-30ShortRangeCartridges1.jpg

w30wcf

[44man]

Dang, I still don't see it. The 1894 marlin in .44 had more recoil then the 336 Marlin. The 336 is HEAVY and I am 77. I don't think any load put in a 30-30 is harsh. I suppose a 12 ga or 20 is too hard on some. just how much worse is a shotgun?
I grew up with a .300 Weatherby, nothing to shoot 100 rounds a day, have shot the .577 Nitro Express. My favorite revolvers are the .500 JRH and .475.
Have you shot 3" shotgun slugs from a bench? Need a sandbag on your shoulder.
A 30-30 with no recoil?? It has none to start with.
I buy guns to shoot what they were made for. I have shot light rifles in large calibers that one was enough but a 30-30???
I hate being beat myself and know limits but some guns do not need made into a .22. If a 30-30 hurts you you have my sympathy.
Back in the day we loved recoil as kids. Pull both triggers on a double barrel 12 GA, spin a circle, have the forearm pop off and the barrels fall on the ground was a laugh. Now you pamper kids.
I learned to teach with more recoil then what they want to shoot. Then they go to their gun with no fear.
Have to be a twink to fear a 30-30. Girls shoot .338's and .375's and I have had them shoot .500's.
My mailman came to hunt with his daughter, .223, silly butt. lost many deer so I told him to get a 30-30 for her. She is expert with it and no longer loses deer. Yeah young girl. I don't tweet so don't twink me.
Some of you need a pellet gun. I will not cry for you, are you a man?

[btroj]

Desire to shoot reduced loads has nothing to do with "being a man". You sound like Jay.

I don't load everything I own to the gills for all loads, I enjoy lower velocity loads for many reasons. I can use less powder, shooting more on the same dime.

What it really comes down to is CHOICE. Some want everything run full tilt, others prefer to shoot reduced loads. What I don't get is why some feel this is a right/wrong issue.

Shoot what you want, I don't care. What I do care about is the assumption that shooting reduced loads makes one less of a man. Talk about insulting.

[Alan in Vermont]

Sometimes I do love that we have an ignore function here. I've had about all the BS I can handle from someone who never casts a bad boolit and claims to know every secret there is to shooting magical groups.

[44man]

Desire to shoot reduced loads has nothing to do with "being a man". You sound like Jay.

I don't load everything I own to the gills for all loads, I enjoy lower velocity loads for many reasons. I can use less powder, shooting more on the same dime.

What it really comes down to is CHOICE. Some want everything run full tilt, others prefer to shoot reduced loads. What I don't get is why some feel this is a right/wrong issue.

Shoot what you want, I don't care. What I do care about is the assumption that shooting reduced loads makes one less of a man. Talk about insulting.
NO, I don't shoot out of the envelope, only to accuracy and never use a chrono looking for "HOW FAST." I could care less how fast. But recoil reduction with a small gun---WELL! I shoot some light loads myself for cans, etc. Mostly I load to hunt. I love 7 gr of Unique with a 245 gr in the .44, so what? I have tried all the mouse loads in the 30-30 too and found I was throwing boolits away, CHEAP, YES but a waste of lead and the little powder. Don't hit, why even shoot?
Guys show off huge guns to friends but want a red dot load for a .458!!! Unique in a .500 S&W!!! Why did you buy the monster to start with??? I don't feel sorry for you, if a 30-30 bothers anyone just what does on 06 do?
Maybe you have injuries and that is fine but for a normal man to look for recoil reduction in a little gun rubs me wrong. After seeing girls handle stuff you complain about is plain wrong.
Long ago my wife shot my .44 a lot with light loads so I snuck in full mags. I asked if she seen the difference. She said "YEAH, some where louder."
Look at all the posts looking for twink loads. Buy a .460 Weatherby and first thing will be a search for a light load--so why did you buy a Weatherby??
I made the 30-30 Marlin shoot but it took 3031 and 4895. Anything else was money in the toilet. A 30-30 with recoil? You wave your .44 at a friend but don't tell him you shoot 800 fps. It does not need 1400 fps, it needs where it is accurate.
I never agreed with Jay and his over the top loading. That was his decision. I never promote that, only to what the gun was built for and accuracy. Don't buy a gun you can't handle.

[35remington]

The usefulness and fun of loading light loads for any given firearm is quite obvious and is not open to legimate question.

The fact that a given individual chooses to do so is their own business.

Questioning other person's motives for loading reduced loads and implying it is some sort of deficiency that leads one to do so makes the belittler's own personal motives open to question, and makes it appear they are trying to compensate for something they have lost themselves.

[MattOrgan]

The anonymity and the "courage" the Internet provides creates a stage allowing someone to say anything in a manner they wouldn't even consider in a face to face situation. Even if they were using their real name instead a self chosen nickname on line there would be less of this bullying and bloviating. Experience, testing, and experimentation can be purely digital or pure BS today, no need to leave your computer and cast, load, or shoot.

After all the original post was about a subsonic load in a .30/30 rifle and a light bullet. The poster had two powders. One not very suitable and the other perfect ( Bullseye). Some one gave a perfect answer (4.5 to 5 grains of Bullseye) obviously based on experience. Experience that matches mine, and many others that have written about their testing. Of course the off subject one upsmanship begins. Not helpful if we want to bring new shooters to the best sport there is. Skill with firearms has become something that is ridiculed by the media, this type of behavior doesn't help. A novice might read some of this chest thumping and take it seriously...........

[CGT80]

I just found the "ignore" button. :grin:

I prefer not to do that, especially to someone who has so many posts, but I can't stand that attitude to put people down for a personal choice. It is OK to disagree, but when a person insists that their way is the only way and everyone else is full of ****, I think they are full of ****. No amount of reasoning will get them to respectfully disagree.

Let us know how those loads work out, OP.

[btroj]

Loading to accuracy doesn't mean it has to be done way, does it?

Ben gets excellent accuracy with a variety of rifles at low end speeds but you harange on Unique as a rifle powder.

I shoot for my own enjoyment and have no desire to prove anything to anyone.

[Alan in Vermont]

The main reason I'm working with light loads is because our 50 ft. indoor range has restrictions on what can be run against the backstop. The rule says "hadguns up to 44 Magnum only". Concern is about damage to the plate. Problem is that those who made the rule are just about clueless as to what causes damage. Big bullets or boolits at moderate velocites aren't the issue but light, fast ones might be. When I mentioned that someone had been firing 5.7 X 28mm and that the velocity might be an issue I got the deer in the headlights look and some mumbling about it was a small bullet.

I got a papal ruling to use gallery loads that were chrono'd at under 900 FPS (Lee 93 gr. RN over 3.0 B'eye. I'm not getting really good accuracy with those, playing with charge weights hasn't shown much difference between 2.7- 3.5 gr. B'eye.

I just got the NOE 311008 clone and want to mess with that. I'm thinking that 124 gr boolit (what mine weighs as cast) driven at 1,000 FPS is just about what a 9mm does.

Considering it hovered right around 0°F here today and the indoor range is kept around 60° I really like shooting indoors, even if it is only 50'


I have a super accurate load with the Lyman 311440 over 16/SR-4759 which will cut a ragged hole at 25 yds but is going to be just a little noisy for indoor use. I also have a limited number of those boolits available and no longer have the mold to make more. Nerve damage affecting my left hand/arm forced me to sell off my 4-cavity iron molds and the 311440 was one of those that had to go.

Club elections are tomorrow night, there is a strong movement to purge the officer ranks of a couple sticks of dead wood. If we can change the guard I want to have a try at promoting gallery shooting with rifle calibers using reduced loads.

[btroj]

Makes perfect sense to me. You have a 32-20 with a 30-30 chamber.

[44man]

I have nothing against light loads per say, just that I never got them to work. The post strayed onto recoil reduction though. If you get accuracy with what you shoot, who am I to say your are wrong?
However casting, lubing and loading is a chore that gets tiresome and if I can't hit, it is a waste to me. It is like spending big bucks for a bulk box of .22's that half don't fire and every other one has a different report. I get tired of missing squirrels when a round goes bloop or click.
All the poor loads I have made cost dearly in lead, primers and time. I have so many wasted boolits down on my range the EPA would hang me out to dry. Yes, I try what you guys say works, never found it yet. Bullseye on up. My 30-30 loads are actually very light but they use rifle powders. I just break 1900 fps. yet I have put 3 shots in 3/16" at 100 yards and normal groups are under 1".
I told how to load for the lever gun. I bet if any of you rolled a round on the bench, it would wobble. Watch the boolit wobble. Come back after you see it. Do you have a run out gauge?

[btroj]

Seeing that the OP stated he intends to use this load at a 50 ft indoor range I don't think 100 yard accuracy is an issue.

[Alan in Vermont]

Seeing that the OP stated he intends to use this load at a 50 ft indoor range I don't think 100 yard accuracy is an issue.

But, if it shoots decent indoors it will be worth exploring at least out to 50 yds. when it warms up 50-60 degrees.

I'm going to do a little shooting indoors tomorrow afternoon. I have very few 30-30 cases that aren't already loaded so I'm going to unload some of the ones I've got the 93 Lee/B'eye loads in. I have several hundred of them loaded for the granddaughter, she will never miss a few of them. She sure does love those things and they are cheaper to shoot than rimfire at the present time and just as accurate.

[Catshooter]

44man,

You are turning more and more into a troll.

The man asked for what the man wanted, some of us are trying to help him out.

Maybe drink less while posting?


Cat

[44man]

Yeah, guess you are right and I apologize.
Hard being trapped in the basement with this weather.
Getting air in my water since the guy built behind me, screws up the water softener. Then the fan on the dehumidifier needed fixed. One thing after another and no play time.
Had a devil of a time finding an ejector assembly for a Savage 170, 30-30, got it fixed, fixed the roller for the stores meat slicer. Fixed a stock for an M16.
Makes me a harsh old codger.
It is snowing again, the association made me road manager, our hills are slippery and I need to get sand on them, UPS slid off yesterday. Paper man took out a fence.
I don't want to take out frustration on you guys.

[44man]

Anyway, I always try to help even if you shoot different. I mentioned run out and found the 30-30 brass is all over the place with neck thickness being uneven. You might not think a lever gun can gain but I outside neck turned all brass just enough to even it and reduced run out from well over .020" to .002" or less. That really made a huge difference. Cast will not straighten so you need to start it straight. The bore ride for a Marlin should be .309" and the drive .311". Or whatever your bore measures.
Have any of you rolled or measured? Is it crazy to use BR techniques in a lever gun? Not at all, they are great guns. Will it help with Bullseye loads, I leave it for you to judge.
I did not know it was so bad with run out when I started so maybe my first loads should have done better.
You can holler at me, I don't get angry. Just accept an old crank once in a while.

[btroj]

I have never really looked to get top accuracy from my 30-30 but I can't see what neck turning wouldn't help. Concentric ammo is never a bad idea, neither is consistent neck tension.

Jim, I understand the bad day thing. It sure can show up in forum posts. No hard feelings, I just think we all can come across a lot stronger than we think.

[Catshooter]

44man,

This isn't my thread so I can't accept your apology for the OP.

But I was involved and I can and do accept your apology for me personally. And I appreciate it too: thank you for it.


Cat

[44man]

You are my friends and I appreciate it, thank you.

[Alan in Vermont]

I finally got to make a range trip two days ago. Not fantastic accuracy for only 50 feet, but not patterns either.

Lighting is bad on this indoor range and my eyes need new glasses in front of them. I'm also going to pull the firesight front sight off and put one of my 71a Lymans with a front aperture back on. I think the double aperture combination will work good where the target is brightly lit. At least I hope it will.

Very pleasant to shoot, the 5 grs. Bullseye is just about as good as it gets for this purpose. I was very surprised at the almost total lack of smoke, Bullseye and NRA 50-50 usually make quite a smudge. It may be because this NOE boolit has pretty tiny lube grooves so there's not a lot of grease to turn into smoke. Not a speck of leading but I didn't expect there would be any at this power level.

[truckjohn]

I for one am a huge fan of the reduced loads in hunting rifles...

A big piece of this is that I live back east - where it's crowded... People are everywhere... and you gotta be concerned about your neighbors getting mad when you go blasting away with Big Guns....

If I can shoot reasonably quietly - I can shoot... If I go "Booming" away and rattling folks windows - then they complain and I can't shoot...

It's the same thing that good 'ole Harvey Donaldson went on and on about when he was going head to head with P.O. Ackley... Ironically, both were "Right" for where they hunted.... It's just that Ackley's writings were more "Sexy" in the gun mags... It's starting to come back around, though...

For example... I absolutely *LOVE* the CCI "Quite 22's" in my Marlin 39A... They run right at 700 fps - and are no louder than a hand clap... I can go shoot cans, squirrels, and starlings out back. Nobody notices, nobody cares... I can't do that with my 204 Ruger....

If I can load up a similar load for my 30-30, then I can have extra fun with it too...

Thanks

[44man]

I grew up in Cleveland but shot all the time in the city, back yard. Pellet guns and BB guns but also .22's for rats. Had tons of pigeons to be shot. Flying rats. We all had flat garage roofs so we jumped from one to another and shot rats between them. Aim at a hole until the rat stuck his head out. Nobody ever heard the shots.
Then we took .22's to lake Erie (Edgewater Park.) in town and shot rats and carp. All we heard was the hammer fall, no report near the lake. Just a click. A million rounds expended and never seen a cop. Fun to walk the wall and shoot carp with a Mark I and see it spin.
Had so many pigeons I set rat traps on the garage roof with bread, caught many that way.
Something to be said for quiet shots. I made a silencer from copper tubing and a copper toilet float for my Mark I that slipped around the front sight. We would drive Rocky River park and flush a big coon, bail from the car and chase it up a tree and shoot it with the pistol for fur. Made a lot of money for kids.
I used a bow, slingshot, cross bow and even a blowgun where no shooting was allowed in Brookpark Ohio, never got less then 16 rabbits a day. Shot many pheasants too.
If you think I was a do gooder back then, think again.
We snuck into the trout hatchery at the Blue Hole at night, found trout can't see at dark so used liver. Caught enough trout to fill the trunk of the car. Tasted like mud so we quit.
Shot a thousand pounds of carp with bows and was told by the owner to remove all of them, filled the trunk and stopped on the way home to dump them. Land owner seen us and chased us, barely got in the car to drive off.
Oh yeah, we were nuts. I shot hundreds of squirrels in Brookside Park with a slingshot, also pheasants. A lot of woods and fields around the park. Trapped rabbits too. Got caught shooting where not allowed, took to the station but let go and given back our guns. Got caught speeding through a town and had a car load of guns and knives taken as not legal but let go with all of our guns to go hunting. Today you would be a terrorist and locked up.
Had a 41 Ford with mechanical brakes, woman slammed on her brakes and to miss her I had to go over the double yellow line. Statey pulled me over, seen my .44 mag, empty of course but it scared hell out of him. But they were real people then and I never got a ticket when I told him my brakes could never stop the car.
You do not have my memories. Went duck hunting once and shot some teal when the sun was way above the horizon, got tickets because you had to go by sunrise time, had no watches so it cost us $20. We were only a few minutes off.
You want PPFFUUT from your gun, tell me about it, you are where I was long ago!

[44man]

Back then you took guns to school to hunt after. You took guns to work to hunt after or before. Had traps in the car too. Life was great and we were free. When 18 you could buy a revolver through the mail. No killings and hardly no crime at all. We use the utmost care and knew how to handle guns. I fished all over with a .44 on my hip, no problem at all. I could buy a gun in Cleveland anytime as a kid. Paper route money. When younger I would pick bottles for deposit or coat hangers from trash to sell to the dry cleaners, penny apiece. Then go buy penny packs of BB's for my BB gun.
You do not know what damage liberals have done to freedom. Pain back then was a kid hit by a car or bus.

[w30wcf]

Alan,
I shot bunches of 311008's in the 30-30 awhile back (12 yrs or so) testing different loads. My goal was to replicate the early .30 W.C.F. / .30-30 Short Range factory cartridges of long ago.

The most accurate was 6/4756 which produced 1,150 f.p.s. Here's a 50 yard target with that recipe. Rifle was a Marlin 336SC (1949) with a 4X scope...
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/w3030c50yls.jpg

Since then I've worked with other bullets, 1 of them being the Hornady 90 gr SWC resized to .311 with a Lee push through die. Rifle was a Marlin 336A Micro Groove / 10X scope
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Hornady90grswc.jpg

I never tried Trail Boss with the 311008 since at the time of my testing it wasn't available. Based on the results with the lighter Hornady bullet with it I think I will put it on the "To Do" list for this year....when the weather warms up.

Have fun!
w30wcf

[w30wcf]

44man,
Sounds like you had a lot of fun growing up in Cleveland!:grin:

w30wcf

[44man]

Yep, sure did. Had all kinds of factories around so at night we climbed to the roofs for fun. One time a watchman came out and scared hell out of me when he chased me. He had a hammer. I went off the roof to the alley without missing a beat with feet flying. Never felt the ground at all. My mother never knew where I was and when she got pissed, I did not go home until she was over it. First light until well after dark, kids were alive and making stuff from junk, shields and swords to cars to fly down the hill. Finding wheels and wood was life. Kick the can in the road at night! Victory gardens in the flats during WW II. I was there. Children today have no life at all. you do your best but if you have your child be alone you are arrested for neglect. We walked miles to school in any weather. School never closed until snow was 3' deep. I was still out in it.
I learned to work, replace the garage roof or the auto transmission in the Olds. I watched my old man remove a straight eight from a car with planks, no engine hoist, out on the street.
Look at your kids with phones and texting, could they build a country? you learn by doing, not some radical telling you. I wish you all would look hard at what they are teaching your children. We learned the hard way. Right or wrong, we became the best. Most of you are too young to understand. I am accused of being harsh but I did the work and was there. Never cry on my shoulder, my boot is very large.

[Alan in Vermont]

I'm happy to report that my load of 5 gr. Bullseye behind the NOE 311008 is just a dandy gallery load. Ran some through the 94 that Linda brought home yesterday and got some ragged hole clusters on the indoor (50') range. Was just plain miserable conditions outdoors, damp, a little windy and any place that wasn't iced over was thawed and muddy on the ranges so we opted to play inside. Really bad front sight that was washing out something terrible wasn't helping any. I suspect this load will do even less ragged holes with a better front sight.

[goofyoldfart]

good for you alan. don't stop now, you are on a run.;)

44man, I can understand your point of view, I'm 70 myself. After 4 tours in the university of Southeast Asia, I am a disabled vet. 5months ago I had pancriatic cancer surgery(sp?) and am healing really well according to the doctors. But due to injuries and the surgery, I have to be really careful about the high power loads I USED to shoot. Maybe someday soon I can again, maybe not. BUT, I really do like the 30-30 so I was fascinated by alan's question. and it is cheaper than 22's right now. all I can say is bless you sir and tommorrow will probably bring a better day. the hardest part for me was having to ask for help so I could get some things done. Never had to before. but I found out that there were many kind people out there, if I could just accept the help. God Bless to you and yours and to all and theirs.

Goofyoldfart.

ETA: now you know why I have the wet cat in the towel for an avatar:bigsmyl2: