more questions on the "43 Spanish rollers"

[bigted]

well everytime I think I have put my roller thru its paces ... seems somebody else raises more questions in my mind with their experience with theirs.

for instance my roller is the Remington script on the wrist and in military form with the typical 32ish length barrel and the 120 pound trigger [kinda]. it has the screw in metal cleaning rod and seems to be typical in every sense of the word.

only thing that disturbs me is my measurements which include such;

Bore = .436
groove = .442

I have not done a chamber cast but here is some measurements from fired cases;

neck OD = .473
neck ID = .4535

hence I can load in unsized cases the .452 inch boolits.

[Mk42gunner]

Ted, It has been a while since I have done anything with my .43 Spanish Roller. It is one of the 1879 Argentine contract ones.

I want to say the bore diameter in mine is .440", no idea of the groove or case mouth diameters. One thing I have often thought is that the Lyman 446xxx meant for the 43 Mauser would be a better match than the 439186 they say is for the .43 Spanish. I don't know, but it sounds reasonable to me.

The biggest disappointment for me is how thin the top of the shell holders are due to how thick the rim is supposed to be on the case. I know I broke the top edges from several of the Lee's while pulling the case from the resizing die when I first started loading for this cartridge. Might have been a bad batch that Lee made, I don't know. I haven't broken the RCBS one yet, but I haven't used it a whole lot either.

I need to do some work with mine this year, hopefully my back feels god enough this spring.

Robert

[fouronesix]

I have an M1879 Rem RB Arg. contract in 43 Spanish with fine bore. Groove diameter is .441. The mid-neck diameter of a fired case is .461".

I had zero luck getting paper patched bullets to shoot well- possibly because of the BP era throat. As buckshot described- straight taper from end of case mouth into bore. Accuracy not good and consistent paper rings. Enough of that- so tried a different route.

I designed a Mountain Molds conventional GG GC bullet of 380 grains. I size to .443" with fairly soft alloy. I shoot mid-light charge of 5744 with dacron filler to 1150 fps with SD of 11.

Without modifying the gun, I installed a barrel mounted peep sight that extends back to the receiver ring. It shoots extremely well.

[bigted]

"Without modifying the gun, I installed a barrel mounted peep sight that extends back to the receiver ring. It shoots extremely well. "

now I would very much like to see your barrel mounted peep. sounds like just what I need on mine. how bout a photo or two of it?

[fouronesix]

No problem. Too late tonight but will post a couple of pics tomorrow. Also had to increase the front sight height to get POI down to reasonable level. Built a "saddle" type front blade that fits over the existing blade.

I use Bertram brass sized with standard 43 Spanish dies. The bullet is a 380 gr GC Mountain Molds sized to .443" with a push through sizer and of fairly soft alloy and pan lubed with soft lube. I have tried both .442" and .443" sizing and notice a very small increase in accuracy with the .443".

Removed the rear "battle" sight. The key is to find a low profile dovetailed base that is close to the barrel contour that can be screwed into one or both of the existing sight screw holes. Had one in a junk sight box. Then fitted a long barrel sight peep into the dovetail. It extended back onto the top the receiver ring. It gave the best sight picture, but was too long and interfered with thumbing the breech block tab. Found a shorter Williams (?) rear with peep- as pictured. Added a little front sight height by forming a small "saddle" to fit over the small blade front.

This combination is elevation and windage adjustable and can zero from 50 yards out to about 250 yards. I would think some form of carbine ladder sight or even a trapdoor Buffington would also work. But in any case, the rear sight would need to be kept low profile. Otherwise the front sight would have to be further heightened to zero at the shorter ranges.

[Nobade]

Mine will take a .442" bullet in a fired case. Groove diameter is .447". (This is hard to measure since it has a 5 groove barrel. I use a V-anvil mic to get an accurate measurement.) I initially tried it using normal 43 Spanish cases, and got very poor accuracy. Bullets leave the case, try to bump up to fill the chamber, usually fail to do so, hit the rifling and get swaged back down, and head off for parts unknown. (cases are about 3/8 inch shorter than the chamber) So I got some 44-90 Shiloh thick rim cases, FL sized them in a Lee 43 Spanish die, and trimmed them to the length of my chamber. Now that worked! The bullet leaves the case and immediately gets to pass through the throat and into the rifling, where it can slug up and seal properly.

At first I made a mold for it, to throw a slick sided roundnose 375gr. bullet at .434". Patched with the 15# green bar paper it comes out to .442" and fits my cases just right. Then I won an auction for a Rapine mould designed for the 43 Spanish. It produces a .436" bullet. I have to size it after patching, but it shoots even better than my homemade one and is a lot easier to use.

Loads are normally duplexed, .5cc AA5744 under a charge of FF black. Don't remember how much without looking, but it's about 90 gr. A 7/16" card wad, grease cookie, and another wad. Bullet hand seated on top, so that it almost touches the throat when chambered. In the little Argentine carbine, this is a very powerful thing to shoot. Quite a bit of noise and recoil, and runs around 1450 fps. It hits to the sights, and groups in the neighborhood of 2 MOA which ain't bad considering the carbine sights are nowhere as good as the rifle sights.

I still don't understand how the issue ammunition can produce useful accuracy, but I suspect in a rifle that is dimensioned to work with it, it should function well. But the dimensions of these rifles seem to be all over the place so for best accuracy it seems the ammunition would need to be tailored to the individual rifle.

-Nobade

[bigted]

first off thanks for the photo's of the sights ... given me food for thought.

I do know ... as I have read everything I can get me hands on regarding the 43 Spanish ... that the chambers were and are all over the map. my thinking is that I get sidelined with "others" reports on "their" 43 and I get suspect of my chamber/bore dimensions. however I do get fair accuracy doing it my way with the accurate mold I got from Tom at 'accurate'.

I like my old rem military ... however since I got the 40-65 sporting Remington roller ... it has replaced the "apple of my eye" so to speak in the old 43. I like the simple action and blackpowder requirements with these old original shooters and they provide me with a surplus of fun with shooting and handling them as well as loading for them.

I have yet to get a rifle that when ... with measuring the case mouth ... I load a boolit that is a slip fit into the fired case with no sizing required ... will deliver good accuracy as well as repeatable performance with the bp loads as long as the fouling is under control. even when I shoot smokless in them with these diameter boolits they perform well no matter what the barrel measures out at ... the old adage of "fill the throat with soft lead and watch the thing perform" thing.

[fouronesix]

:) Since there is not a regular throat (as we think of a throat these days) in these rifles, or for that matter in many others of that era, it would take a bullet the same diameter as that of the fired case neck to "fill" the throat.

With mine, I dinked around with different "conventional" internet theories, even info from the 43 Spanish experts as printed in their book on the subject. I tried both plain base GG bullets and paper patched bullets with both smokeless and black. I had, at best, poor success. I quit paying attention to all the advice and used my own reasoning.

In addition to giving up on all the basic load advice, I also quit trying to get the as-issued crude battle sights to work for any kind of accurate shooting. If the basic sight resolution and repeatability is good for maybe 5 MOA or worse, what's the point of trying to shoot a group for load development, much less for shooting at the often quoted longer ranges?

The loads and sights described above have worked for me with my rifle. The rifle is capable of fine accuracy. It will consistently shoot 5 shot circular groups of .5"-.6" at 50 yards from a rest and 1.5" groups at 100 yards. I'm not going to pull the targets out of my target storage box. I've learned that photos of targets are not proof that any of the accompanying data is legit anyway.

After reading about the extremely wide variations in the reported bore, groove and chamber dimensions of the various 43 Spanish Rem RBs out there, I guess I was lucky with mine.

So far Bertram brass has worked fine and it should last a long time given the lower pressure loads and careful handling. But I do have a good supply of rimmed Basic brass I got from Mike Venturino in case I wear out the Bertram cases. :)

[Nobade]

I am still wondering what would happen if you used a appropriate sized bullet wrapped in the thickest paper you could find to get it to fit snugly in the chamber up against the rifling, followed by a charged case that had been trimmed to the right length? Basically just breech seating, but with a very much oversized projectile that has been made as compressible as possible with thick paper. Either that or a heeled bullet that fit the case and the chamber at the same time, but that's a lot of swaging down to do when it enters the rifling.

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

Yes,
I have long since given up on all the "normal" ways to get an old original BP cartridge rifle to shoot. They are not the same as one of the modern replicas. Once I found my solution, haven't done any more experimenting. But, when fiddling with the paper patch bullet in the 43 Spanish, the only alternative I could see was a conventionally paper patched bullet of bore diameter to slightly larger than bore diameter, fully breech seated into the lands backed by a wadded BP loaded cartridge butted up against the bullet base. Then there wouldn't be any throat transition problem between the chamber and full bore engagement. I'll let someone else explore that… and leave the modern gun BPCR shooters to their "absolute" methods.

BTW, I went through a similar work up for an original 44-90 M1874 Sharps and a couple of original 45-70 trapdoors. Of course I read all the stuff in the trapdoor book so often quoted. Similar to the 43 Spanish book. Whatever. But I already had the experience with the 43 Spanish Rem RB. So, went straight to the successful methods I had learned with the 43 Span. Presto!

[Bob Busetti]

My .43 rolling block shoots the lyman .43 cast boolit just fine. I don't size the boolit, just lube it. I took the old formula of -60% of the black powder charge to come up with the correct charge of 4198. I settled on 31.0 grs. of 4198. I also remove the rear sight & put scope mount on using the rear sight holes. In stalled Bushnell Phantom 2.5 power scope. Rifle is capable of good accuracy. Also might add that I use poly shot shell filler on top of the 4198. I also had trouble with Lee's shell holder. Now use RCBS shell holder.

[brstevns]

My .43 rolling block shoots the lyman .43 cast boolit just fine. I don't size the boolit, just lube it. I took the old formula of -60% of the black powder charge to come up with the correct charge of 4198. I settled on 31.0 grs. of 4198. I also remove the rear sight & put scope mount on using the rear sight holes. In stalled Bushnell Phantom 2.5 power scope. Rifle is capable of good accuracy. Also might add that I use poly shot shell filler on top of the 4198. I also had trouble with Lee's shell holder. Now use RCBS shell holder.
What scope mount did you use that fit the holes ? My old eyes do not see those military sights very well.

[bigted]

I have often considered putting an old Lyman scope on y 43 just to see what it would do in reality with my "open sight" methods removed from the equation. I have an old springfield bridge mount that I could prolly make fit for the purpose as well ... HMMM.

[brstevns]

What material and how thick or your over the powder wads or cards? Was thinking of cutting down some old fiber and cork 20 ga wads I have .