NOE HP vs Cup point vs FP

[Irascible]

Just broke in an NOE 2 cavity mould for the .460-405gr GC bullet. It came with three sets of pins and I was wondering which of the two HP pins would have some expansion but not so much that it would bust the nose all up? I'll probably try the std FP first as I think it is plenty of what I think I need, but I am sure curious how the two HPs would work. Especially that shallow cup point. Alloy would be wheel weights with2% tin added, and air cooled. Velocity would be 1700 - 1800 fps.

[44 mag nut]

Is this for hunting or just fun on the range?

[Lefty SRH]

I say go with the shallow hp pin. My experience has been a regular or deep HP nose will break off with just COWW. Id say you wouod have to atleast use a 50/50 mix if you are using a regular HP.
Another thing to keep in mind, a HP cast boolit can be extremely devistating on the meat of your game.

[mold maker]

No experience yet with the cup point, but the deep HP will definitely shatter and destroy meat, when WW alloy is used.
The cup point is very interesting.

[StrawHat]

My experience with HP molds is they are a nice option but most of the time I end up casting solid boolits.

[square butte]

Yes - I'd like to see a real world hunting report on the cup point with a softer alloy like 50/50 or softer. Looks like a great option for less meat loss and still enough weight retention for a pass through. I have a few molds with this pin option and am looking forward to trying them out on a meat bearing target

[Smoke4320]

Yes - I'd like to see a real world hunting report on the cup point with a softer alloy like 50/50 or softer. Looks like a great option for less meat loss and still enough weight retention for a pass through. I have a few molds with this pin option and am looking forward to trying them out on a meat bearing target

same here .. I tried but could never connect during our Deer gun season.. maybe try for some hogs

[ballistim]

Never shot a deer with cast but have several molds with all options & will pay attention closely to what others find. I've heard a lot of people prefer the flat meplate & shallow HP designs best with a softer alloy, reasons make sense as far as retention goes.

[white eagle]

shot deer with hp's and cup points
depending on velocity and distance to target your choice could be either and both would work
that said for general hunting a shallow hp or cup point would work just fine of course depending on your alloy of choice
there are a couple of fellas opinion I respect and they also recommend a shallower hp
to many variables to say for sure which one if any would fit in your world with your equipment so cast,test,hunt and repeat
aint this fun

[Irascible]

I was refering to hunting. The NOE cup point for this bullet is quite shallow. I wouldn't hunt with the deep HP out of the rifle, but was interested in what others saw about one vs the other. I would not think either was needed for Deer/Black Bear, the FP should be quite enough.

[white eagle]

most of the hp's I use are out of a handgun

[ballistim]

most of the hp's I use are out of a handgun

I like the expansion I get from moderate velocity HP designs using 9mm & 45acp MiHec molds using softer alloy w/penta points, haven't tried them on game yet but wouldn't be afraid to.

[Shooter6br]

I go with a big FP for 45-70 . Alloy at about 12 -13 . Speed 1500 FPS

[jhalcott]

Impact speed and alloy have great effects on cast bullets. I played with a 450 grain mold in the 45-70 years ago. Softer alloys than ACWW would stay together with a cup hollow point and shoot clear thru Crop raiding does at well over 100 yards. Step up the speed to about 1700 FPS and often I'd get NO EXITS. ACWW alloy would exit these deer at more than 1800 fps, but damaged lots of meat. I used a Mauser 45-70 rifle and a T/C Contender for the shooting. I settled on a 300 grain FN for the Contender and a 425 grain pointy bullet for the Mauser.

[Blammer]

my testing with the cup point has shown me that it expands a little more than a flat point and a whole lot less than a HP.

I prefer the cup point in my rifles when I have a mould that makes them. :)

[45coltnut]

Irascible,

This is the exact mold that I'm looking at. Which one did you get? double cavity? brass? If you don't mind, let us (me) know how you like it and what size its dropping. I too will be using WW with 2% tin.

I think the shallow cup would work great for the alloy hardness around 12-15. But, I'm already gathering up old phone books and magazines for a future wet paper tests. I hope to be ordering mine soon :) Thanks!!!

[Irascible]

I bought a double cavity PB in aluminum and because I also wanted a GC bullet I also bought a brass one with all the pins. Didn't want the pins, but there was no other configuration. I have no un-sized bullets right now so I'll get back to you on the dia., but a .459 die did size the whole bullet, this was from the AL mold. I have Buckshot making a .460 die as we speak.
I have shot about 25 of the FB bullets from the AL mold, over a case full of Blackhorn 209 just to see how the bullet shot and how the powder worked. Both worked great for what I was doing which was off hand shooting at 50yds at a steel plate. About a 3.5" group. It's too cold to sit outside at the bench for now. I'll get back with more information.

[45coltnut]

I bought a double cavity PB in aluminum

I just placed my order for the .460 PB brass mold with pins. If you do any testing of the HP vs cup point please post. I plan on doing some but not till March probably. My theory (from what I've learned and read) is that an alloy of WW + 2% tin, around 14 BHN should work best with the cup point pushed around 1600-1700 fps. This may be the upper limit of speed though, not sure.

[kweidner]

If it helps I have found 25-1 expands very nicely with the cup fired around 1060. perfect mushroom. The hp can't hold up at the 25-1 and 1060. fragments too much. I use a lead calculator to figure out stickys and hardball to get the mix to same bhn as 25-1 if low on pure.

[pls1911]

I guess I'm a bit goofy... I cast big meplat solids at 10-12 bhn, heat treat to mid 20s bhn and poke 'em through the shoulder bones.. .30, .35, and .45 calibers.
Pass through? Yep everytime.
Expansion? I doubt it, but never find a bullet.
Kill 'em all dead? Yep, every time I do my part.
Track 'em? Heck no...

[JesterGrin_1]

For myself I do not feel a HP cast boolit is needed for hunting nor an advantage with the 45-70 Government.

[Rick Hodges]

For myself I do not feel a HP cast boolit is needed for hunting nor an advantage with the 45-70 Government.
x-2 the flat point works fine on deer.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

A few years back I purchased an NOE 360-180 WFN mold. I noticed that when I had the flat point pins in, and closed the mold while it was upside down, the pins would create a very shallow HP. I always thought it would make a great hunting bullet. Sold that mold to GP100man, IIRC, and wish I had it back LOL! SO I just ordered the 360-160 WFN NOE mold and can't wait to revisit those shallow HPs.

[Good Cheer]

The only 45-70 (70, 80, 90... whatever) that I have anymore is a TC New Englander with the barrel resleeved to have a .458" bore diameter.
Lymans 457124 cast cookie dough soft kinda goes splat.
My brother's 45-70 load is a soft lead (unalloyed) 500 grain paper patched swaged spire point. It goes splat too. And he does get pass through.
I like to kid him about getting shaken baby syndrome.

[fredj338]

It's alloy & velocity dependent, but I find cup points more reliable expanders w/o blowing off the nose at higher vel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-265.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/44-265.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/44-272.jpg.html)

[Good Cheer]

Got the old NEI .375 caliber 320 grain gas checked mold hollow pointed to use hunting with the .375x45-70 but never have had time to try it out. It oughta work well out past 200 yards. Maybe next year.

[45coltnut]

Irascible, I've been breaking in my NOE mold as well. Out of curiosity, what weights were you getting with your alloy? I too am using WW + 2% tin. But, I'm a little surprised at the less than thought of weight.

My flat nose boolits are only 388 grains, the shallow cup are 378 grains (375 if close it while the mold is still upside down) and the large HP pins are 363 grains.
130169

[Irascible]

Yup, we're in the same ballpark with weight of the FP. I haven't weighed any Cup point or hollow point. Actually I probably won't cast any HPs at all. That HP is way to big for a rifle caliber. We have so much snow and cold here that I have not shot anything for quite a while. It has become a full time job keeping the 200 ft driveway clear and keeping the wood pile by the house full. I had to take the snow blower cross country to get a path through to the wood piles which are away from the house and now have to hand carry all the wood back to the house. But I digress. Yesterday was the first time in 6 weeks or so that I had a few hours to cast. Trying to build up my supply of cowboy bullets up for the summer season. Alloy is all junk, but as soon as I empty the pot, I'll go back to the 45-70 mold. Then I'll try to answer your questions.

[Irascible]

I got around to trying the brass, GC, mold today with the cup point pins. I changed the alloy a little though. 9 parts COWW + 1 lead + 2% tin. I thought it might be better to have a slightly more mallable alloy with the cup point. Roto Metal's tin popcorn sure makes it EZ to add small percentages of tin. Anyway, with that alloy the diameter came out to be .4612 and the weight was at 375 plus or minus .2 grain. I did have to pressure feed the mold to get fill out at 650 degrees. Now if the snow would melt (2 feet at present), I could go test these.

[45coltnut]

Irascible, thanks for the update. Sounds both our molds drop about the same weight for the cup point.

Out of curiosity, why did you do the 10% pure lead in your mix? From my calculations, you should end up with a BHN around 11.8. But, straight COWW and 2% tin should yield a BHN of 12.1. So, just curious if a small change is beneficial for expansion or if this is for casting purposes instead.

I hope to load some rounds tomorrow in preparation of expansion testing in March. I'll be comparing all three Boolit types including a comparison against the 350 grain Barnes XFN.

[Irascible]

Since this is an expanding and gas checked bullet, I decided to work with a more mallable alloy to some what prevent fragmentation of the nose. I don't know if it will work like I hope it will. We'll see. I will use the WW + 2% on the solid nose plain base mold. Whenever it gets above freezing and the 18" of snow gets out of the way, I'll do some testing.

[45coltnut]

Cabin fever got the best of me and I decided to load up some of the cup point 378 grainers that I casted a couple weeks ago. I sized these to .459" and lubed with Ben's Red. I loaded 5 different loads for accuracy testing. Using IMR 3031 at 44, 45, 46, 47 and 48 grains. I'm estimating velocities between 1400-1700 fps. My next purchase really needs to be a chronograph!

I can't wait to send these down range from the 1885 Hi-wall :) Come on warmer weather!!

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