New imr powders

[LynC2]

I see Graf's has some of the new IMR powders in stock. I read that the new ones were cheaper to manufacture than the old line. I sure don't see it from the prices listed! I guess my age is showing, I remember getting a coke for a nickel and a nice big candy bar at the same price. Oh well everything goes up it seems, but wages and SS benefits. :violin:

[texassako]

Pretty good write up in the new Hodgdon annual on them. They don't say anything about being cheaper to make. They do talk about them being less toxic to make, and double base instead of the IMR tried and true single base.

[sig2009]

Over $200 for 8lbs. They can keep it! At those prices they will discontinue faster than the old ones! When you figure in HazMat and shipping, you are looking at close to $250 per 8lb.

It used to be that it was cheaper buying on line reloading components but within the past year it has become obvious that you can pick up the same items at your local gun show, pay tax and get a better deal.

With the Grafs components as well as any other on line dealers there is a price point where consumers will stop buying and they just hit my price point!

Also IMR said when they discontinued the popular powders they were expensive to make. Now the new ones are even more expensive.

[jonp]

I took a look at it when I got the email from Grafs. Hodgdons seems quite taking with the environmentally friendly angle and even has the writing on the bottles in green.

I'm not sure it's better enough to justify the price although they do say that its pretty much impervious to environmental conditions so if you hunt in extreme conditions that might be a factor for you

[dragon813gt]

It was said that the old powders were expensive to make. I'm assuming the new powders are cheaper. So if they're charging more than it's a higher profit margin. This is what every company wants. And we all know that "environmentally friendly" means you charge more for it.

[Hickory]

Makes a person wonder if the EPA is the reason for the
higher prices over the last 5-6 years and the "Green" hipe?

[MUSTANG]

Need to introduce an "Environmentally Friendly" powder. Seems I heard this tune before, can you remember:

Must Introduce a Lead free gasoline to "Improve the Environment". Lead previously had to be put into gas, we don't put lead in for "Lead-Free" gas (reduced cost) anymore, but we charge more.

Yep; seems I heard this tune before.

[dragon813gt]

Makes a person wonder if the EPA is the reason for the
higher prices over the last 5-6 years and the "Green" hipe?

In this case, no. It's a world market and Hodgdon sells their products in Europe. If you think the EPA is bad they pale in comparison to a lot of the environmental laws over there.

[9w1911]

To me its all marketing. Its all extruded powder correct? is that not IMR bread and butter, extruded rifle powder?
They are experts. So no change there. Its probably old over stock re-branded.
Is it a new burn rate, do they fill a category that is now un-used? do they fill in for any of the powders they are discontinuing? Nope
Is it a ball rifle powder that can be used in anything? haha anyway.

My guess is this, the brains over at Hodgdon are all proud of their extreme lines of powders, and I bet they sell very well. Then they look at IMR powder and say, "how can we bedazzle this old IMR", like an old Willys jeep IMR must appear antiquated to some new hotshot executive.

Why not make a 4759 equivalent in ball? nope. My guess is IMR will not be around very long, it literally competes with Hodgdon.

They are morons. Im not buying this new powder unless one is 800x in a ball powder

[FLYCUTTER]

Has anybody noticed their new powers are not selling the way they thought. Every one of the new powers run at a higher pressure just to attain under 100 fps more at the max. charge. I will buy the tried and true powders and they can keep this new stuff.

[blaser.306]

To me its all marketing. Its all extruded powder correct? is that not IMR bread and butter, extruded rifle powder?
They are experts. So no change there. Its probably old over stock re-branded.
Is it a new burn rate, do they fill a category that is now un-used? do they fill in for any of the powders they are discontinuing? Nope
Is it a ball rifle powder that can be used in anything? haha anyway.

My guess is this, the brains over at Hodgdon are all proud of their extreme lines of powders, and I bet they sell very well. Then they look at IMR powder and say, "how can we bedazzle this old IMR", like an old Willys jeep IMR must appear antiquated to some new hotshot executive.

Why not make a 4759 equivalent in ball? nope. My guess is IMR will not be around very long, it literally competes with Hodgdon.

They are morons. Im not buying this new powder unless one is 800x in a ball powder

My question is how do you suspect that "it" competes with Hodgdon? When "it" is Hodgdon? Hodgdon makes nothing and re package everything! I am going to keep my eye's open for different suppliers touting "new" powder #'s some that are made in Canada. As I suspect that 4759, and a couple of others while not being carried by Hodgdon might get picked up and re #'d by someone else. Really no foundation, just thinking out loud.

[dragon813gt]

My question is how do you suspect that "it" competes with Hodgdon? When "it" is Hodgdon?
Beat me to it. Winchester would be "competing" as well. In reality you pay more for the Winchester brand name when compared to the Hodgdon brand name.

We will see what happens to the single base powders. I've heard that the machinery it's made on is worn out. But you know how truthful rumors can be.

[Hickok]

How about they just get more of the original line of powders they do make on the shelves?

[texassako]

How about they just get more of the original line of powders they do make on the shelves?

It would compete with the new powders.

[9w1911]

It competes because you choose to buy IMR over Hodgdon. You guys never heard of companies buying name brands just to kill the brand off?

[dragon813gt]

It competes because you choose to buy IMR over Hodgdon. You guys never heard of companies buying name brands just to kill the brand off?

It doesn't matter. The money is going to the same place. Same as when Chevy and Pontiac had the same cars w/ different badges on them. People are dumb so it's to Hodgdon's benefit to keep the brand names. If one of them develops a bad reputation then it's time to kill them off.

While there is some crossover between brands it's pretty much exclusively between Winchester and Hodgdon. As I pointed out you pay a premium for the Winchester name. IMR's powders are a lot different than Hodgdon's offerings at this point. Time will tell what happens but I don't see either brand going away.

[offshore44]

Powder... At this point I would just like some reasonably appropriate powder to be available close to the the time that I need to restock at a price that I can manage. Old formula, new formula, imported, domestic, what ever. If I could, I'd jump on six packs of eight pounder's just to have enough powder in the magazine.

[blaser.306]

It competes because you choose to buy IMR over Hodgdon. You guys never heard of companies buying name brands just to kill the brand off?

Precisely! Hodgdon does not make powder! They sell powders already manufactured and bottle them with their name. If they own it all it is a shell game ! Buy whatever you want, the money all goes into the same pocket. Killing a brand is killing their own supplier, does that make sense.

[9w1911]

Pontiac had separate employees,assembly plants and budgets.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

How about some CONSUMER friendly powder with consumer friendly shipping costs. Down with LIBERALISM, some say!
I don't think they charge hazmat on rubbing alcohol or mouthwash do they ?

BvT

[dragon813gt]

HazMat shipping charges are from the shipping companies. It has nothing to do w/ the powder companies or the distributors/retailers. Blame lawyers for the charges.

[blaser.306]

HazMat shipping charges are from the shipping companies. It has nothing to do w/ the powder companies or the distributors/retailers. Blame lawyers for the charges.

Just to add insult to injury, one of the online sellers here in Canada does not charge Haz mat fees! Why? Because until you reach a "placardable quantity" there is no haz mat! .So in the long run it is just another "tax" that the shipper is self imposing. Now I can't be sure for the US But here in Canada that appears to be the case.

[dragon813gt]

No, it's the same here. They adding on the extra fee for perceived liability. Limitations on shipping quantities are regulated by the DOT. Suffice it to say UPS, FedEx and the USPS are not delivering quantities that warrant placarding.

Alox is considered and hazardous material if you want to go deep down the rabbit hole.

[blaser.306]

A friend and I went together to try some Dominion ( Wolf , Tula ) primers. Ordered 5000 no Haz mat fee and $15.00 shipping! Sounds high I know, but for Canada that is unheard of. When it is 45 below zero celcius it would cost that much in fuel to go to the LGS and pick them up by the time you warm up the truck for half an hour LOL!!!

[John Boy]

Reloaders don't realize that Hodgdon is more concerned with their bottom line than producing available powder for the commercial market.
Goex, before being bought out by Hodgdon, raised their prices for black powder 10% every year. Hodgdon buys them and the price is then increased 22% and every year subsequent to 2011 the price goes up 10% each year

They're doing the same with smokeless!

[jonp]

How about some CONSUMER friendly powder with consumer friendly shipping costs. Down with LIBERALISM, some say!
I don't think they charge hazmat on rubbing alcohol or mouthwash do they ?

BvT

If the alcohol is 91% and in sufficient quantity then they probably would as it has to be shipped haz-mat.

[Blackwater]

Boys, I have to confess that whenever I read/hear these arguments about big business wringing its hands and trying to stab its consumers in the back, or trying to pull con games on the general public, I get very, very sadly pessimistic about where this nation and its people are headed, and probably sooner rather than later, too. Finding something to "vent" about and "blame" for what's going on is surely "human," of course, but not one of the posts here has given any concrete reference for its opining. Not one. Just got off the phone with a friend coming back from his company's trade show in N.C., and he launched into a tirade on how the distributors and mfgrs are conspiring to cheat us po' country boys out of our hard earned money and not give us what we want and need. BULLSPIT! I say! It may be FASHIONABLE to whiz and moan about what's going on, or to point to little Johnny over in the corner and blame it on him, or the guy sitting next to him, but it sure as hell doesn't get to the ROOT of the problem, and in fact, keeps us further and further from doing just that! This is disfunctionality in the extreme, and serves not even ONE of us, but demeans us all, and those who have for a couple of centuries now, outfitted us. These conspiracy theories, and that's all they are, no matter who is quoted to support these dangnable lies, just HELP the situation get worse and worse and worse. It doesn't HELP one dang thing or person! This is so obvious I feel rather sheepish pointing it out.

Sure, we're all "mad" at this situation, but casting aspersions all over heck's half acre and incriminating those who are, and always have been our friends, is just plainly beyond any pale imaginable! If you're addicted to conspiracy theories, and don't mind bashing your friends, and don't care if this helps the situation get worse and worse, then by all means, have at it at your own discretion, if you have any.

If on the other hand, you really WANT to know the REAL reasons, we need to do a lot more serious investigating. I haven't found the answers yet, but I DO most sincerely suspect the current administration in Washington has its hands all over this issue. I just don't know HOW it's being done. To a degree, that's also a "conspiracy theory" in some's view, but it's at least based on clear prior observations and activities, and it's surely in line with its avowed goals and policies, so .... IF you're gonna' have a conspiracy theory, at LEAST have one that's based on SOMETHING rather than just a little child's cry for help. It's just plain embarassing to see grown men acting so viciously toward those who've been our suppliers and best friends for decades, and SOMEbody needed to point this out.

If THIS is the best we can do, then indeed, this entire nation is about to fall, and it'll be from within, and our own fault for being so utterly foolish and infantile at our approach to understanding and hopefully solving this situation and condition. WE ARE the nation's strength, and if this is all we can muster up, we're not going to last much longer, and that DOES matter!!!!

[RogerDat]

Removing lead from gasoline did not make gasoline cheaper as mentioned earlier. Lead performed two functions, it coated valve surfaces to prevent wear (intentional leading) AND it acted as an octane booster. Removing lead required more costly refining and formulation changes to achieve the same octane without using lead. It also required hardened metal inserts for valve seats rather than cutting the seat directly into the cast heads.

Hodgdon president has said the reloading powder shortage is mostly driven by the demand for factory ammo. A market with high demand here in the US which powder companies are trying to meet. Demand is also high worldwide with all the conflicts going on around the world. This worldwide demand has a tendency to drive raw material prices up.

One might find the Powder Equivalency chart from ADI of interest. ADI makes some Hodgdon & IMR powders and a call to Hodgdon confirmed the accuracy (in terms ADI of load data and safety) of those equivalents. http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/ I include this in response to the speculation on powders showing up in Canada with new #'s.

[jonp]

No, it's the same here. They adding on the extra fee for perceived liability. Limitations on shipping quantities are regulated by the DOT. Suffice it to say UPS, FedEx and the USPS are not delivering quantities that warrant placarding.

Alox is considered and hazardous material if you want to go deep down the rabbit hole.

No, UPS, Fed Ex and USPS are not but I don't think those 3 companies are hauling it out of the plant by the truckload which would need a placard I think. Well, actually I'm pretty sure of the amount and placard but not the primary carrier for the manu. Many companies are starting to charge an extra fee for hauling haz-mat due to the increased cost of their insurance. Many trucking companies are washing their hands of haz mat altogether. My last two companies no longer required it's drivers to even have the endorsement. One flat out did not haul haz mat and the other would offer you a few cents per mile more to pull a load but didn't force you to do it.

[leadman]

I had corresponded by e-mail with the guy in the know about the new powders at Hodgdon. Forgot his name but it is the same person mentioned in the articles on these powders. He told me the new powders are cheaper to make. I told him the retail prices did not reflect this, just the opposite. He did not have an answer for my comment.
I do not see me buying any of these new powders in the near future.

[mac60]

Has anybody worked with any of these powders with cast? 4166 looks like it might have some applications with boolits. It's hard for me to get past the price. On a positive note they do seem to be available.

[MTtimberline]

I hope the going green part doesn't have the same effect powders that happened to "green" matches.

[frnkeore]

Regarding the price of reloading components issue, it is a fact that the larger the corporation, the larger the expected profit precentage. In todays world, a corp or company can not generate emough profit to satisfy itself. That is a fact and not a conspiracy and once a corporation has control of the product, they tend to not care about anything in the way of ethics, as long as it sells and they don't get caught.

I say that the only way it can be controled is by competition. Buy the competitors product, Western and Alliant. I buy EVERYTHING I can at gun shows (don't do that as it will increase my costs :( ) Hodndon, may very well have a computor program (like BP got caught with) that maximizes profits by selling to the government and outside of the country while creating stratigic shortages to fuel it. A hard nut to crack!

Blackwater:

"Finding something to "vent" about and "blame" for what's going on is surely "human," of course, but not one of the posts here has given any concrete reference for its opining."

"I haven't found the answers yet, but I DO most sincerely suspect the current administration in Washington has its hands all over this issue. I just don't know HOW it's being done."

All I can say is WOW!!!

Frank

[RogerDat]

How about this for a concrete reference? Basic economics. You know the old law of supply & demand? Combined with the natural ability of a capitalist market to provide desirable products to those with the money to purchase those products? Throw in a profit motive that exists all along the supply chain.... Pop goes the conspiracy theory.

Post 2012 presidential election many did some stocking up or made purchases of firearms (and ammo) in anticipation that restrictions were a greater possibility. Post Sandy Hook when congress started debating restrictions damn near everyone did that in a big way. Demand outstripped supply with a predictable impact on prices. Plenty of articles about increased firearms sales in the news. I know folks that went out and purchased a firearm or two that they had planned to purchase "someday" but decided to get immediately out of concern for future availability. You purchase a firearm you also purchase ammo. You have concerns about ammo availability you purchase more. You have trouble finding ammo then when you do find some you purchase larger quantities to avoid the problem finding it in the future.

Reloading supplies demand works the same AND draw from the same supply as ammo manufactures. The same powder, primers, brass, and projectile manufactures serve the ammo manufactures AND reloading market. With one possible difference, the ammo companies probably have contracts with the suppliers and thus probably get "first dibs" on available supply. Even absent contracts the store bought ammo market is the component suppliers primary customer, reloading is a much smaller subset and thus less important demand to satisfy.

Desirability is another factor that drives supply and prices. Bear in mind that a low supply can increase desirability of "equivalent use" products. Concrete examples would be anyone that bought a different powder than they would normally use because it would work and was available. Or the fact that some limited use powders remained available while more desirable (unique,varget,2400 etc.) were harder to find, demand for these products had outstripped supply in a massive way so equivalent use products became more desirable.

If these "new" powders work as well (equivalent use) and are more available people will purchase them. If they have more desirable features (work better) people will purchase them. If from a manufacturing standpoint it makes sense to consolidate manufacturing process (equipment & materials) to those used in these new powders that is what will happen. Elimination of redundant manufacturing process is more efficient thus more profitable. If that consolidation or new equipment has costs those costs will be passed on at some point. The most likely candidate for that increased cost pass through is to add it to the "new and improved" product being marketed.

Changing the color of lettering to green and other text changes allows companies to both market the new feature (CFE) and preserve the brand label with the familiar look and feel. CFE Pistol and CFE Rifle are pretty straight forward labels. It has a new feature CFE and it's for pistol or rifle. Looks enough like a Hodgdon label that you will recognize it. If people like it and it sells expect it to gain market, if it does not work well or seem worth the cost then it will not continue to gain market share. Oh I did notice that it "incorporates" technology developed for the military. I would hazard a guess that they got the military contract to a certain spec and are just marketing to the public since they already have the manufacturing line set up.