I almost gave up....

[Clinton]

I started casting boolits not long ago. My first test subject was my 1911 in 45ACP and I was spoiled by instant success without a lot of experimentation. I then moved on to my rifles, selecting my 308 Win sporterized mauser because it seemed to be the simplest rifle to learn with and I knew it shot really well with jacketed bullets. I eventually wound up trying 3 different molds and 5 different powders with only marginal success.

I was really on the verge of giving up. I was running out of things to try. I'd even spent days just evaluating my shooting techniques to make sure it was the load and not just my inability to shoot straight. I'd read on here that people had good experiences with SR-4759. So I went looking for some to give yet one more powder a shot at making this work. I couldn't find any SR-4759 but I did find IMR-4198, so I bought a jug. And now I finally have confidence that I can make a lead boolit shoot as well as a jacketed bullet in my rifles.

Lee C312-155 sized .311 through a Lee push through sizer. Straight COWW, air cooled and lubed with LLA. 21gr and 22gr of IMR-4198. No fillers and none of the bullets sorted by weight.
All targets are 5 shot groups at 100 yards.

126713

126714

I'm guessing this load is just barely over 1700 FPS and I will continue to work with it until accuracy degrades but it is already good enough for me. Thanks for all the help everyone.

[Harter66]

A guy can't complain about groups like that.

[Clinton]

Yeah I felt like doing cartwheels all the way down range to the target board. Took me about six months to get the results I was after. Feels good now though.

[georgerkahn]

Kudos to you! Very impressive shooting -- I'd be most happy if any of my targets looked so good! (Looking at the snow presently falling, 9 degrees out, versus my waiting for ~40* temp before I recreationally again shoot outdoors... perhaps in May? adds to their beauty. My three most-used rifle powders are IMR-3031, 4198, and 4895 -- any/all good choices. "You done well!" (sic)
BEST!
georgerkahn

[jeepyj]

If it was me I'd make a note of that load for future reference. Its definitely a keeper. Nicely done.
Jeepyj

[Char-Gar]

What did you learn from the experience that you can pass on to others?

[CastingFool]

those are very nice groups, congrats!

[Clinton]

Yeah I use an Ipad app called "Ammotracker" to track all my loads. It also allows you to upload pictures with with each load so you can go back and see what they looked like on paper. Was pretty cold today, about 30 degrees and seemed to be an unusual amount of mirage. Seemed my crosshairs were floating all over the bullseye. I'm surprised I shot as well as I did.

[Bzcraig]

A great reminder to those of us who are on or soon will be chasing the same goal. I applaud your perserverance!

[Clinton]

What did you learn from the experience that you can pass on to others?

Throw enough **** against the wall and eventually something sticks! I would have to say just keep trying different combinations of things.

[SSGOldfart]

you got it nice group keep up with the reports I'm about to start a new 308 myself. might just have use what I learned from today I was leaning towards 3031 but I have a jug of 4198.
thanks

[45-70 Chevroner]

Nice groups. You will probably have some changes to make when the temps get up to the 70s or higher. A gun will shoot differently in cold weather than warm weather. My old 94 Win. 30-30 shoots very well with H-4198 which is the same powder as IMR 4198. Hodgdon also owns IMR and a Hodgdon rep. told me that those two powders are the only powders with the same numbers that are identical.

[Clinton]

You will probably have some changes to make when the temps get up to the 70s or higher.

God I hope not :(

[Char-Gar]

Throw enough **** against the wall and eventually something sticks! I would have to say just keep trying different combinations of things.

OK, you didn't learn a thing. You just got lucky. That approach is at least 25 years behind the times. There are reasons why some loads work and others do not. Once the lesson is learned it can be duplicated with other rifles and not have to rely on chance and luck.

I am glad you stumbled onto a load that will shoot for you, but there is no "take away" here.

[Clinton]

OK, you didn't learn a thing. You just got lucky. That approach is at least 25 years behind the times. There are reasons why some loads work and others do not. Once the lesson is learned it can be duplicated with other rifles and not have to rely on chance and luck.

I am glad you stumbled onto a load that will shoot for you, but there is no "take away" here.

I'm sorry you don't approve but then that never was my goal.

[Char-Gar]

I'm sorry you don't approve but then that never was my goal.

If finding a load by luck that shoots well for you and learning nothing in the process was your goal, then you succeeded right well. It is not for me to approve or disapprove, but we try and help folks on this site and where there is no learning, there can be no helping. I really don't care if you learned anything or not, but I thought if something was learned, it might be helpful to others.

[WILCO]

A great reminder to those of us who are on or soon will be chasing the same goal. I applaud your perserverance!


I agree! Would like to see pics of the rifle. :)

[dtknowles]

Nice groups. I am not familiar with the bullet. Does it have a gas check? If you increase the velocity you might need a different lube. Sometime I think a bit of trial and error is required to find the right load.

Tim

[Clinton]

I agree! Would like to see pics of the rifle. :)


126735

VZ-24 Mauser. I know many view this as a crime to sporterize one but trust me, it was rough and this was done 15 years ago.

[Clinton]

Nice groups. I am not familiar with the bullet. Does it have a gas check? If you increase the velocity you might need a different lube. Sometime I think a bit of trial and error is required to find the right load.

Tim

Yes it has a gas check. It's actually a Lee mold for 7.62 X 39 I believe. I'm hoping the lube holds up but I guess we'll see.

[walltube]

Clinton,
Nice going. Don't be discouraged with initial results first time out with lead boolits. Relax and enjoy. What cast boolit loading reference manuals are you reading for data? Can never have too many.

Just so you know, I've used Unique, 2400, IMR4759, H4198, IMR3031-4895 in my mil-surp bolt rifles. As well sporting bolt action rifles. Experimenting within the limits of published data in any respected manual is my suggestion to you for tightening groups. To paraphrase an old Greyhound Bus television commercial: "...getting there is half the fun."

Good luck and be safe,
Wt.

[WILCO]

126735

VZ-24 Mauser. I know many view this as a crime to sporterize one but trust me, it was rough and this was done 15 years ago.

SWEET!!! Now what's the story behind this beauty?

[ShooterAZ]

I have been using that exact same boolit in 30-06 with Varget & IMR4064 and pushing it past 2200fps with the same kind of accuracy. Some loads in my ladder test were nearly 2300 with good accuracy. My Remington 700 loves that boolit.

[Clinton]

If finding a load by luck that shoots well for you and learning nothing in the process was your goal, then you succeeded right well. It is not for me to approve or disapprove, but we try and help folks on this site and where there is no learning, there can be no helping. I really don't care if you learned anything or not, but I thought if something was learned, it might be helpful to others.

My only intent of this post was to say "Don't give up". I've been through tons of trial and error over the last few months with this project. I've changed the way I do many things and through the process of elimination I've worked out a load that "works". Could I have gotten similar results with other powders by adding fillers or trying different primers? Probably, but if you search any of my previous posts I stated I wanted to find a bullet/powder combination that did not require the use of fillers. Also from what I've read on here (and my previous loads) I've come to believe you do not need to sort boolits by weight to achieve decent accuracy (at least at short distances). So if you want something to take away from this, that's all I can offer.

[Wolfer]

When I first started casting for rifles my results were disappointing to say the least. I had been reloading jacketed bullets for many years and I approached cast the same way with the same powders.
After reading Ed Harris's article on 16 gr of 2400 and having a jug on hand I gave it a try.
Wow, now all my guns were accurate with cast. Some more so than with jacketed.

What I finally came away with is cast has to be approached from a whole different angle. As a general rule faster powders than would be ideal for jacketed. It's not necessarily the burn rate it's wheather they reach optimum burn pressure before they pass a point the cast boolit can't hold up.
Some of the guys here will be using standard rifle powder such as 4350 with good results. These guys have learned how to fit their boolits to their gun via custom molds or custom chambers or very close attention to detail or maybe voodoo. I don't know since I'm not at that point yet.

Ive found it's very easy to get excellent results from scrap alloy, standard molds and chambers with powder that burns clean below 40,000 psi. This would probably be any powder designed in the early part of the last century. Unique, 2400, 3031 comes to mind.

Ive also found its easy to get good results from scrap alloys as long as you hold velocity down below 1800 fps in 10" twist or a little faster in slower twist.

Im of the opinion every new caster should start with the 16 gr of 2400 load. This may not be what you want but at least you know you can shoot cast in a rifle just as accurate as jacketed albeit at a much lower velocity.

Congrats on your load. I've never shot any 4198 but it looks like it fits my criteria above.

[ShooterAZ]

The 16 grains of 2400 is a good accurate load, however it gives velocities well below 1500fps in my 30-06 with most boolits.

[Clinton]

SWEET!!! Now what's the story behind this beauty?

Actually kind of a neat one. When I first got into shooting (other than .22s as a kid) I wanted a centerfire rifle. There was an old man at the local shooting club I'd talk to sometimes. He was retired and did two things to occupy his time, sporterize mausers and fix weedeaters lol. He built a mauser every week it seemed and so it wasn't too much trouble to get him to build one for me. We went to a gunstore and picked up a beat up VZ24 off of the rack (he said VZ24s were the best) for $75. We took it back to his shop where he pulled the barrel out of the action and turned down the bolt handle. He sent me home with the parts to clean them up and finish it however I wanted. I ordered the barrel and stock from midway I think. Pretty sure its a green mountain barrel and the stock is a Faijen.

The barrel came short chambered. He asked what caliber I wanted and I said .308 so he took a hand reamer and finished the chamber so that it would just barely close on a go gage. The chamber in that gun is so tight any brass I find at the range has to be resized with a small base die or it will not go into the chamber. He then drilled and tapped the receiver and helped me bed the stock.

The thing I remember most when I talk about that gun is the man who built it and his shop. His entire ceiling of that shop was lined with boxes full of mausers from one end to the other and the walls were lined with weedeaters. I got him to build me a rifle but for the life of me I could not get him to sell me a weedeater lol.

[Clinton]

Im of the opinion every new caster should start with the 16 gr of 2400 load.

I guess I've done similar with SR-7625. It shot groups every bit as good (or possibly better) than the ones I've posted above but at a much lower velocity of course. I knew I'd never reach the velocity I was looking for but I've wrote off such fast burning powders for a different reason. A double charge is much more easily detected with a slower bulky powder. I always try to be careful when reloading but I like the fact that larger charges are much more obvious if someone accidentally tries to put two charges in the case.

[Clinton]

What cast boolit loading reference manuals are you reading for data? Can never have too many.



Just the Lyman book that came with my kit so far, although I think I like searching this site more for loads other have had good experience with. Standing on the shoulders of giants as they say.

[Wolfer]

You are correct in the double charge danger. I don't have a problem because I load one cartridge at a time. I take double charges very seriously and am extra cautious when using powders like this.

16 gr of 2400 is where I start in full size cases. I go up until accuracy falls off. For instance my 336 made it to 17 gr @ 1700 fps. 20 gr in my 30-06 is as high as I can go @ just below 1800 and 18 gr in my 30-40 Krag gets me the same velocity.
While accurate with 2400 I get a little more velocity with good accuracy from slightly slower powder like 4759 and 5744 in my faster twist 7x57 and 8x57

[WILCO]

Actually kind of a neat one. When I first got into shooting....

That's a great story! Is the old man still around?

[Clinton]

You are correct in the double charge danger. I don't have a problem because I load one cartridge at a time. I take double charges very seriously and am extra cautious when using powders like this.



Yes I'm not trying to discourage others from doing this. I just simply do not trust myself enough not to make a mistake.

[Clinton]

That's a great story! Is the old man still around?

No unfortunately he died years ago. I wish I had a grandfather or an uncle who could have taught me what he knew. Men like that are a dying breed I fear.

[35 shooter]

Good job Clinton. It does feel good when a load comes together. I know you've worked hard on it as i've followed some of your posts. Those are great looking groups.

Btw it seems Larry Gibson got some great results as far as speed and accuracy with aa4350 in the 308. I use imr4350 in my whelen with good results with cast. Might want to research some of Mr. Gibson's work with that if you haven't already...just a thought anyway.

[Clinton]

Good job Clinton. It does feel good when a load comes together.

Yes it was a good boost for my confidence. I was beginning to doubt whether it was even possible to get 1" groups with cast boolits at any decent velocity. But now I know it can be done and I will not be so easily discouraged by slow progress.

[Vinne]

I only get groups like that with my shotgun at close range!!!;)

[Clinton]

I've loaded up some of the 155's with 23 and 24grs of the same powder for tomorrow but I've also thrown together some with the Lee C312-185 boolit. It performed just like the 155's did with the same powders. I'm curious how it will do with IMR-4198.

[waco]

I have been using that exact same boolit in 30-06 with Varget & IMR4064 and pushing it past 2200fps with the same kind of accuracy. Some loads in my ladder test were nearly 2300 with good accuracy. My Remington 700 loves that boolit.

My Rem. 700 .308 loves it as well. It's the best (most accurate) I've tried so far. I need to experiment with some slower powders but have had good results with 2400 and really good results with SR4759.

[Clinton]

My Rem. 700 .308 loves it as well. It's the best (most accurate) I've tried so far. I need to experiment with some slower powders but have had good results with 2400 and really good results with SR4759.

SR4759 was what I was wanting but they didn't have any. IMR4198 was the next thing up the burn rate chart so it's what I bought. I'd been thinking of trying IMR3031 but my experiences with IMR4895 left unburnt powder in the barrel so I was afraid 3031 might do the same.

[427smith]

can't believe anybody would say you didn't learn anything. Nobody is shooting your gun, your alloy, your lube and your powder charge except you. of course you learned from it. That's why we don't buy store bought ammo. fun ain't it?

[Clinton]

That's why we don't buy store bought ammo. fun ain't it?

I was beginning to believe it was an unhealthy obsession, at least I'm pretty sure that was my girlfriends opinion. Now I've got targets to prove I'm not crazy. :)

[Three44s]

Well, I'd say you've done right fine!

Best regards and more good shooting!

Three 44s

[WILCO]

Men like that are a dying breed I fear.

Yep. Learn all you can, try to fill the shoes.

[Clinton]

Went back to the range with loads increasing by 1gr and accuracy immediately fell apart. Still no leading so I'm inclined to think the lube is holding up. Should I try water dropping some to make the lead harder?

[big bore 99]

Very nice groups! I've always had good luck with IMR4198 in my 45-70's. I'm running low on it now, and just bought some H4198. Some on here say it's the same and some say way different. They are right next to each other on the burn charts. Keep those groups coming!

[TXGunNut]

Glad it finally came together for you, some cartridges and rifles seem to require no small amount of trial and error and occasionally a little bit of luck. Others come together on the first attempt and the project comes to an abrupt end. Guess which one is more fun and educational?

[427smith]

just a thought. some people get by with a soft alloy, I'm not that lucky, my 300 blackout likes brinell 17@ 1833 fps average. 14 brinell shoots really bad and brinell 19 not as good as 17, same mold, same powder charge, same cases. no way I can explain that.

[waco]

SR4759 was what I was wanting but they didn't have any. IMR4198 was the next thing up the burn rate chart so it's what I bought. I'd been thinking of trying IMR3031 but my experiences with IMR4895 left unburnt powder in the barrel so I was afraid 3031 might do the same.

Thats why when I did find some on the web, I bought 16lbs.

[Harter66]

For what it's worth I must be in the voodoo class with IMR 4350. I shot a few of the 312-155s in a rifle that didn't shoot anything else to no avail also . The 312-155 isn't big enough for its intended use in those I load for so it has just collected dust . Your experience with it has given me the curiosity to try it again (now that I learned a new bit of information on that doted American sweetheart rifle that I've cussed every trip out) (see the learning curve posts) .

I don't think there's any voodoo involved with I 4350 it gives a near full case to compressed loads in the smaller cases and cleans up around 30,000psi, even the larger cases. Small cases being sub 300 Savage and larger being 308,x57 and 06' family. I don't think you can overload the little cases with it.and some of course it just won't work in.

I have worked some loads up to failure with several powders, the fabled 10 gr of Unique never did the trick right out of the gate and oh the loads that were perfect in March on the 100 yd boards that shot gunned in May on the 50 yd boards with witnesses at an event. ....... (again with the learning curve).

I gave up on a 308 load ,ran out of time actually, just 1 or 2 loads from a usable big game load . I would suggest a smaller increment in your ladder. I had a rifle that jumped from 3"to 5 touching to 3" in 2.0 gr and in .4 gr opened from 5 in a hole for 3 to an inch. Using 1.0gr steps at least in that I could have missed "the load" all together. Had the load occurred on the half grain instead of the full grain I wouldn't have seen the 5 into 3 but just a best of 2". Which to explore would have taken an additional 5 loads to figure out if the group was growing or shrinking at a particular load step. Just a thought take it with a grain of salt.

Up until 3 yr ago Adams and Bennett were the Midway bbls of choice sometime in the last 2 yr they switched to Green Mountain and AB evaporated.