lets try this just one...more...time.........PID adaptation.

[mozeppa]

I started the other thread in hopes of getting somewhere....and had several nice folks trying to help by answering with
electrical egg head talk....which won't help me at all.

i'm a wood worker not a electrician with a masters degree.

i know it takes 2 wires to get a bulb to light up .....and thats the extent of my knowledge on the subject.

so what i have done is copied the schematic that magma sent with the pot....and then i made a 2nd drawing just like the first,
except that in the second drawing there is what i call "my idea of how it might work" added to the drawing.

what i'd like to know is...will it work? yes or no.
will i kill the pid?
kill the pot?
burn the house down?
or make glorious boolits into my old age?

[TreeKiller]

I think that you forgot the SSR.

[dikman]

I've just re-read your other post, and see that you actually have a working PID so I assume that connection point you show on the side of your PID is where the other pot was plugged in? If so, no, it won't work because that point already has 110v coming out of it and you'll have to do a bit of re-wiring inside the PID. It can be made to work fairly easily, I think, but you'll need to remove the 110v from the SSR and extend the two AC terminals of the SSR to the connector on the side.

A photo or two of the inside of the PID would help.

[mozeppa]

okay....................................whats a "SSR"...?

[mozeppa]

I'll pull the PID apart ...and get some pix.

[mozeppa]

okay now i think i may get it.....see if i'm right....

the PID is like a on/off switch....110v goes in.....and when the pot gets too hot then the temp probe sends a message to the PID telling
it to "shut off" the 110v to the "line out" socket on the back of the PID.

results= no power to the pot.....this only works with a 110v pot.

with a 220v. pot i'll need to wire it differently? yes!

i'll get pix of the PID guts later....gotta go give my pound of flesh right now.

[jsizemore]

The smart man knows a lot.
The wise man knows when he doesn't.

Be wise. Save the money and get somebody that knows what they're doing to wire you a PID. You can't build a house from a cartoon drawing unless you know a bunch about building houses.

[mozeppa]

then ...i'm wise!

i'm asking those who have done this for their expertise.
oh and the "cartoon drawing"?...... is exactly what the company supplied with the pot.

here are some photos of the pid .....maybe one of you electrical guru's can guide me...hell, hold my hand!

please....no acronyms!...such as SSR ...tr7.... 14y22....abc's .....cbs's....nbc's or eieio's i won't know what you mean

i can't read music so don't tell me about quarter notes half notes and the like cuz i won't know what you mean!....(yet i do play guitar rather well.)

here's the pix , if they don't show what you want to see...say so ....i'm home all evening.

[LynC2]

If you were to replace the plug (red) in your diagram from the pot to the PID with a SSR to control that voltage leg and ran the output control wires from the PID to control the relay, your diagram would work.

[mozeppa]

i give up.

[georgerkahn]

"SSR" stands for Solid State Relay. This device enables using low-amperage voltage -- like the Proportional Integral Derivative's output -- to switch the hi-amperage heating coil -- in your pot on and off. The thermocouple "tells" the PID to switch this coil on and off, and a device to enable larger amperage than the PID by itself may is necessary. Some SSR's need to be mounted to a chunk of metal, called a heat sink, to dissipate some of the heat internally generated by its operation. (An incandescent light bulb gets hot, in addition to its prime function of illumination; similarly the SSR gets warm in addition to its prime function of switching.
Hope this helps; as a btw, I'm a piano player -- never as much as held a guitar:p!
BEST!
georgerkahn

[kencha]

Before you worry about anything else, I'd want to verify that the SSR (solid state relay -- electrically controlled switch with no moving parts) is even capable of reliably switching the power you are asking of it. Looks kinda small, but might be OK. What are the numbers printed on the SSR (the smaller black chip screwed to the back wall opposite the heatsink with the yellow and black wires)? I can't quite make it out in the pics. Or if you can get a good legible pic of it...

If it is rated high enough, there may be other issues, but no reason to worry about those until you find out if the SSR will be OK.


ETA: I was too slow. Was busy trying to read the numbers on the SSR in the pics and didn't see your
I give up. before sending the reply.

In the last thread, I wasn't initially aware that you were using an assembled PID controller.

I'd still be glad to verify if the SSR is adequate. Even if it is, the unit really should be modified, if for no other reason than it appears you'd be using a 110V plug and receptacle to control 220V. And you'll still be stuck swapping a couple of wires.

You'd also need to make sure the MOV (blue disc) is rated for 220V as well, as it may just be ~110V. Depends upon if you're going to feed the PID with 220 or 110 (could be made to work either way). More of a nicety though, for surge protection.

[mozeppa]

Before you worry about anything else, I'd want to verify that the SSR (solid state relay -- electrically controlled switch with no moving parts) is even capable of reliably switching the power you are asking of it. Looks kinda small, but might be OK. What are the numbers printed on the SSR (the smaller black chip screwed to the back wall opposite the heatsink with the yellow and black wires)? I can't quite make it out in the pics. Or if you can get a good legible pic of it...

If it is rated high enough, there may be other issues, but no reason to worry about those until you find out if the SSR will be OK.


ETA: I was too slow. Was busy trying to read the numbers on the SSR in the pics and didn't see your before sending the reply.

In the last thread, I wasn't initially aware that you were using an assembled PID controller.

I'd still be glad to verify if the SSR is adequate. Even if it is, the unit really should be modified, if for no other reason than it appears you'd be using a 110V plug and receptacle to control 220V. And you'll still be stuck swapping a couple of wires.

You'd also need to make sure the MOV (blue disc) is rated for 220V as well, as it may just be ~110V. Depends upon if you're going to feed the PID with 220 or 110 (could be made to work either way). More of a nicety though, for surge protection.


thank you ..
got more pix

if i have to feed the Martian Orbital Vehicle "MOV" 220v ...do i have to put a 220v plug on the wall plug wires
and move their connection in the box?

also i think i got what you mean using a 110v plug line to feed the pot.

i got pix of all i could ...unless you see anything i missed...i wrote on the pix EXACTLY what is on each piece.
hope it helps you/me!

[mattw]

I am getting ready to do a 220V PID, I am planning on using 2 SSR's in parallel. This is the best way that I can see to actually kill both legs and start both legs at the same time. Your SSR may be rated at 250V, but only appears to switch 1 leg of the power. This would leave 110V on the other leg all of the time and a path to neutral, so there would be power draw.

[shaune509]

Is that really an SSR? I only see 2 wires not the 4 required, 2 load and 2 control.
There are many good PID wiring diagrams in the stickys and should be some showing 220v.
The SSR only needs to switch 1 leg of the 220v/2phase system to control the load, as that is how your stove or H2O heater work, there is no flow of power with 1 leg open unless a short happens and then the ground takes the power drain. And if set up with proper sized fuses/circuit breaker it will trip.
The advantage of the 220v over 110v is each leg uses half the load for the same wattage, wattage=volts x amps. Service life of element also can be better.
Shaune509

[Beagle333]

That PID was built by www.jconninv.com (http://www.jconninv.com) You could ask him.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PID/pid2002_zps1ff20b32.jpg

[kencha]

Is that really an SSR? I only see 2 wires not the 4 required, 2 load and 2 control.
There are many good PID wiring diagrams in the stickys and should be some showing 220v.
The SSR only needs to switch 1 leg of the 220v/2phase system to control the load, as that is how your stove or H2O heater work, there is no flow of power with 1 leg open unless a short happens and then the ground takes the power drain. And if set up with proper sized fuses/circuit breaker it will trip.
The advantage of the 220v over 110v is each leg uses half the load for the same wattage, wattage=volts x amps. Service life of element also can be better.
Shaune509
Yep, that is an SSR. +/- (the small yellow and black) are the control, and 2 black wires going to the "~". They just have heatshrink over the pairs of wires.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/S216S02/425-1267-5-ND/458286 :)

[kencha]

thank you ..
got more pix

if i have to feed the Martian Orbital Vehicle "MOV" 220v ...do i have to put a 220v plug on the wall plug wires
and move their connection in the box?

also i think i got what you mean using a 110v plug line to feed the pot.

i got pix of all i could ...unless you see anything i missed...i wrote on the pix EXACTLY what is on each piece.
hope it helps you/me!

The SSR is good enough.

The MOV thinking is kinda backwards. You don't need to feed it 220V, but if you're changing to 220V then you'll need to upgrade or remove the MOV since it is meant for protecting 110V circuits.

Since we now know who made it, you can maybe ask them if they'd rewire it for you.

I had originally written a lengthy reply, including several wrong ways it could be done cheaply but cheesily.

There are only 2 right ways though.

1: hardwire the PID to the pot, bolting the enclosures together and running your 2 red-drawn wires to the "~" wires on the SSR (running through a hole with a grommet, and wirenutting them together). You'd be stuck with 2 different plugs though (110V and 220V) unless you will be using a 4-wire 220V outlet.

2: properly rewire the PID for 220V, including changing the MOV and replacing the receptacle with 220V one, either mounted to the box or with a pigtail (depends upon what plug you're going to be using and if there's enough room on the case).

If jconninv isn't willing to do it, I'd do it for parts cost or walk you through it via PMs.

[shaune509]

Sorry Beagle, it may be an SSR I just do not see any control wires from the PID in the first photos and the photo that you show is still not clear as that small black wire 'my' be going to the SSR, angle of vue not clear imho. The unit as a PID looks good and yes small package makes crowded wiring. I am only referancing the SSR's I used in my unit and they are about twice as large as the one shown and rated @ 20amps, the one shown may just be a different style/size than the common SSR's sold by Abers[sp].
Shaune509

[edctexas]

Let's refer back to your first drawing. The 220 V input has two hot wires (blk & Wh) plus a green safety ground. So there is no 120V in the controlled device. The round thing with two wires is probably the devices temperature control. It is a bang bang control with dead-band. This means the devices gets too hot and the control bangs off. The dead band means that it cools off below the set temperature where bang it reapplies heat. What most of have done is either set the control on the device to max or jumper it out. If you are not having connectors between the PID and your device then I recommend jumpering the internal control (shorting it out). You can put a connector on the PID (for 220V) and a cable with a plug to your 220V source. Done this way, You would not jumper the internal control in the device. Your 220volt source would need to be a 4-wire plug with both hot leads, a neutral lead, and the safety ground. Then your output switched by the SSR in the PID would have a connector for the device to supply the controlled device (pot) via its normal 220 plug. By having the neutral wire supplied to the PID box, you have a source of 120V for powering the PID. Some brands of PID units (Auber supplied units) can work from 120 or 220. So you might be really lucky. Keep talking to us and we will help you get it going.

That talk about the MOV (metal oxide varistor) was fun. The MOV protects the PID electronics from over voltage spikes. It indicated that the outfit that built the box had some idea abput what they were doing.

Ed C

[mozeppa]

okay i'm back ...i'm a quick study.

heres my new drawing.

will this work?

i realize that there is 2 pigtails ...one for 110v. to run the pid
and one supplying 220.v to the pot.

geez i hope this'n is right!

[kencha]

On your latest diagram the numbers of the connections on the PID don't all jive with your PID. No big deal, as you don't need to touch any of the wires on the PID itself.

Wiring of the 220 to the pot and SSR looks good. Just disconnect the wires that go to the "~" on the SSR at the terminal strip. Those will be your L1 and T1 as you have them labelled. Doesn't matter which is which. Don't go tugging on the wires too hard though. They should be soldered to the SSR's somewhat fragile pins under that heatshrink, and won't withstand a whole lot of abuse.

But before you do any modifications, have you tested the PID yourself to verify that it works? If not, I'd suggest that first. (You may have mentioned it in the past--sorry if I missed it.)

[mozeppa]

To Kencha...

yeah , it works right now as a 110v. it was made by "jconv" and sold to me by the banned guy that used to a pid admin.
went by the name "frozone"

works fine as a 110v. but now i have a 220v.

disconnect the 2 wires at the ~ ? .........whats that?

[kencha]

To Kencha...
works fine as a 110v. but now i have a 220v.

disconnect the 2 wires at the ~ ? .........whats that?

OK. Just wanted to make sure...

On your SSR, there are no markings for L1 and T1 like in your drawing. Instead, your SSR is marked with two wires going to the +/- (which you will leave alone) and 2 wires to the side marked with the "~". Those 2 wires will be your "T1" and "L1".

[mozeppa]

ah ha!

thanks! i'll get a new box that will hold the 220v. socket and the 110v. socket make the transfer of parts and shoot you a picture before i
fire it up!

[bangerjim]

thank you ..
got more pix

if i have to feed the Martian Orbital Vehicle "MOV" 220v ...do i have to put a 220v plug on the wall plug wires
and move their connection in the box?

also i think i got what you mean using a 110v plug line to feed the pot.

i got pix of all i could ...unless you see anything i missed...i wrote on the pix EXACTLY what is on each piece.
hope it helps you/me!

"MOV" is a metal oxide variable resistor! You do not need one of those!

banger

[kencha]

Well, if you really want a new enclosure... you don't need one though.

It doesn't look like you'll have enough room in the current enclosure to directly mount a 220V receptacle, but why not just remove the 110V receptacle, make a small filler panel for the hole, then put a strain-relief in and run a short pigtail with a 220V receptacle on it?

Less chance of not putting something back in the right place...

Just my 2¢, but I still think you'd be better off rewiring it entirely for 220V and getting rid of the 2 separate supplies, but if you can live with it, the separate 110V and 220V will definitely work. I don't think it has ever been answered, but is your 220V outlet you'll be using a 3 or 4-wire? I've been assuming it is the traditional 3-wire since that's what your sketches seem to indicate, but 4 wire is increasingly common.

[mozeppa]

yup 3 wire here.

are you saying that i could branch one leg of the 220v ...(110v) and a ground to power the PID? ....AND ONLY HAVE THE 220V PLUG?

[kencha]

are you saying that i could branch one leg of the 220v ...(110v) and a ground to power the PID? ....AND ONLY HAVE THE 220V PLUG?

Nope. If you had 4-wire, you could have one plug, or if you rewired it so it only used 220v you could have one plug. If you follow your diagram, you will be stuck with 2 plugs. Don't use ground as a neutral/return. I didn't mean to confuse the issue, I just thought I'd check to make sure you aren't passing up an opportunity for a cleaner setup with a 4-wire outlet.

[mozeppa]

i can live with 2 plugs ...one of each.

[Bignutt]

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong but the way I read the PID it can run off 120 or 240 volt power as it says 90-260 v ac/dc. So I'm of the opinion that taking the 120 off the 1-2 terminals and putting 240 on them, and then changing the output plug to a 240 instead of the 120 would be about all it takes, if the rest of the equipment are rated for 240.

[Bignutt]

If there are lights on the front then I would be wrong, can't tell if that's what that is.

[mozeppa]

yeah theres red blue and green lights on the front.