Boredom leads to 38 Special brass experiment

[Alan in Vermont]

Boredom, fueled by weather cold enough to make doing anything outdoors very difficult, resulted in me undertaking and little "project" in the reloading room.

It all started when I got curious about how uniform 38 Sp. cases are in length. I had 400+ Federal cases, 250+ Blazer brass cases and maybe 75 "Top Brass" cases. These were all the ones that I had which were empty, probably have close to 1200 loaded. Those will get trimmed to the length I arrived at in the description that follows.

Listed max. for 38 Sp. is 1.155" with the Lyman #3 Cast Bullet Handbook giving a trim-to-length as 1.149". Out of the 800+/- cases I had to work with, a random sampling showed none reaching the 1.149" dimension with some needing to be trimmed to 1.120" to clean up. Since I had decided that the goal of this project was to (eventually) get all my brass to the same length I set the trimmer to 1.120", hooked a cordless drill to it and proceeded to proceed.

With the brass all trimmed to length and boredom still weighing heavily on my shoulders I started to think about neck splits, case life and how to approach that. We're talking dangerous country now.

I neck annealed some of the Top Brass brass. Did it in the lead pot and don't know just how well it got annealed other than I got just a hit of annealing colors about 1/4" from the case mouth. Since mouth splits affect only the mouth I figured that first 1/4" was all that mattered. I had even considered making some sort of annealing device to speed the process but shelved that until I determined whether it was really a viable improvement.

Next step was to come up with a way to simulate the working of the brass in a firing & reloading sequence.

Using my RCBS Pro-2000 progressive press I set up dies to do the following operations.

Resize the case; standard carbide sizer die.

Expand the case mouth; I used a hollow expander I made years ago in the image of an "M" die.

Crimping; Again a standard die, 38 Sp. roll crimp seater, set to turn a heavy crimp on the mouth of the empty case.

Expanding the case mouth to mimic firing expansion; Lee Universal Expander Die, set to flare the case mouth. I put a heavy flare on there with the thought that the slow working of the brass in a die probably hardens it less than the violent slam it gets when the boolet gets driven through the crimp in normal use.

Since this was going to be a test to destruction I used very scientific "handful" of annealed Top Brass, un-annealed Top Brass and un-annealed Federal cases. I have seen comments about Fed. brass tending to mouth splits fairly quickly and thought I might as well run a few of them as part of the testing.

The experiment proceeded, accompanied by a new level of boredom. There is something different between running the same small batch of cases over and over and loading somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-600 rounds of ammunition.

I ran all the cases through the press, then inspected them after every cycle. There was a notable loss of brass, unrelated to brass fatigue, as the mouths were very fussy about going into the sizer. My over-expansion was just a little too much "over" and I crunched cases quite often.

One Federal case gave up early, on cycle # 4. After that there was slow attrition of one case at a time on cycles # 18, 23, 24, 25, 27 & 29. Three cases bit the dust on cycle # 30, then one on # 33, three Federal went out together on # 34 along with one of the annealed Top Brass, two of the annealed Top Brass had previously died on cycles # 18 & 23. The last annealed Top Brass, the lonely R-P that snuck in there and the last Federal failed on cycle # 35, ending the testing.

Not sure just what I "proved" with this but,, annealing didn't seem to make a difference, the annealed and non-annealed Top Brass failed randomly through out the test. With the one exception of the Federal case that failed on cycle # 4 the next Federal went to cycle 27, after which they dropped by the wayside over the next eight cycles. That tends to discredit the claims that Federal brass, at least in 38 Sp., fails early.

[35remington]

I presume the fail was a mouth split? You didn't say.

[Alan in Vermont]

That is correct.

[ReloaderFred]

Man, you must have been bored.....! I look at the 5 gallon buckets full of .38 brass in my shop and shudder at the thought of trimming even one of them...

I'm sure that if you had been able to include any nickel cases in your experiment they would have failed much sooner than yellow brass cases. I only load nickel brass for our revolvers, and yellow brass for our rifles. A split case in a revolver does nothing, but it will lock up a leveraction rifle immediately in most cases.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Treeman]

Yikes Alan, I got bored just reading about the experiment! ;^)

[Alan in Vermont]

Fred, the trimming came about because I found so much variation in case lengths. There was .030" difference. That is enough to make a crimp set up on a long case virtually nonexistent on a short one. I've never trimmed handgun cases before but will now work on getting everything uniform. As I empty the cases I now have loaded I'll trim them until I have gone through all my brass.

I have a small amount of nickle cases which I will load only for casual shooting. It has been my experience that kickle cases certainly do get mouth splits far earlier than brass ones do.

I'm going to load a mess of target wadcutter loads and will probably be suffering from more boredom after I cast beaucoup NOE 155 gr. wadcutters. I'm thinking I may be desperate enough to weigh boolits, looking to squeeze out all the uniformity that I can.

[Petrol & Powder]

wow, you were bored

[Vulcan Bob]

Yeah, I too do some weird things when bored. I found trimming the brass in straight wall handgun cases to be not worth my time. Seems I cannot shoot well enough these days to use any improvement! As for annealing .38 Specials I found your info helpful, been thinking about trying that myself. I think that using a taper crimp in light and moderate loads help in the spit mouth department.

[Frank46]

With 38 special and just about any other case I always measure and trim to the shortest case. I find doing that gives me a consistent case when crimping bullets or boolits. In other words no changing die settings when crimping when using untrimmed cases. While not so bored as the OP I in no way would even think of doing this with the 40mm ammo can full of 38 special brass. usually it is in lots of 100 cases. Frank

[rintinglen]

I found a similar variance in length in new Starline cases, presumed to be the same lot. I noted a long of 1.147 and a short of 1.131 in a box of 100. The median was 1.141 and the mode was 1.142, I was quite disturbed at the time that none of them even reached the trim to length recommended in most manuals. I had some years previously measured a box of fired wadcutters but do not have the measurements to hand. I believe they were Federal cases and my recollection is that they were much closer in length to the SAAMI specs and that the variation in length was minimal, though I do not recall hat it was. This matters a lot if you are trying to make top flight ammo. Uneven crimps will string shots up and down on the target due to variations in pressure induced by the resulting inconsistent bullet pull.

[dubber123]

Wow, boredom up north sets in faster than it does on the south end of the state.. :) Thanks for the testing, and it's good to see annealing didn't show a major increase in case life. I'll make you feel better about not annealing. I was on a quest to get sub 2" 50 yd. groups (iron sights) from a 6" M14 S&W a year or so ago. I finally got there, average was about 1.5", some times less. I found one particular batch of WW cases to be best with my load. I decided annealing might make case grip more consistent, so I tried it. Well, it basically ruined those cases. Groups immediately opened up, and didn't return until I switched back to un-annealed cases. I think I lost too much neck tension. Have fun with your next experiment!

[Treeman]

Fwiw I sorted and measured about 1200 .38 special cases 3 winters ago. My own method was to throw a couple hundred long cases into a pile that I then trimmed to the average of the majority. The 100 or so extra short cases I loaded separately (adjusted die for it)and gave to my non reloading friend.

[robertbank]

Ah what long winters do. I picked up about 300 S&B cases in 38spl two summers ago. Some idiot left them on the range for another idiot to pick up. The latter would be me. The S&B brass either has a crimped on primer or just very tight pockets. It matters not which as all 300 cases needed to be swagged. Well since I had so many I went out and bought a Dillon primer pocket swagger (Look up the price if you are curious) and proceeded to swag all the cases. This left me with 300 tight cased primer pocked S&B Cases. They are and remain a pain to use BUT being cheap and unwilling just to recycle them I now use them exclusively for practice. They thankfully split with use and now after several reloadings I am losing about 2 - 5 per hundred due to lateral case splits. I am also still getting high primers requiring more effort to correct and when missed by me, 2nd strikes assuming the revolver cylinder will close on them.

Thankfully I did not fall into the trap the OP did and decide to trim the $%/$% cases as well. Our winters here near the coast are not that long or severe but I can report that sometime this summer the last of the brass should be consumed by splitting. The cases split randomly and start about the 5th reload. Some hang on much longer. Most way to long.

Just 68 more days until the Ides of March. Not a great day for Caesar but often the end of cold weather.

Take Care

Bob
ps If you ever wake up to the sound of a scream you will know someone left 300 S&B cases on the range and I found them. Learning nothing from the past I will no doubt sit down and swag the primer pockets. Being cheap is a hard habit to break. I remain the ultimate brass rat.

pps If varying case lengths affect accuracy I would never know. I just don`t shoot that good but do appreciate those that do.

[Char-Gar]

Your post caused me to go and measure my master case used to set my Wilson trimmer. I am a fan of the 38 Special and have a very large assortment of 38 Special brass of different makes and types. Some are USGI, others various commercial makes and still others that are wadcutter brass.

I do trim all my revolver brass for a uniform length. This helps accuracy via a uniform crimp and eliminates messing with my seating and crimping die every time I change types of brass.

It turned out I am trimming to 1.137 length. I did not select this length from a book or spec sheet, just started trimming cases until I produced a good square mouth on all types of cases. I then made a master case to set the trimmer again.

On straight walled revolver cases, I do not deburr inside or outside the case mouth. I have found that to be unnecessary and does not promote case mouth splits as much. The Wilson trimmer produces a nice square even mouth on these cases. However on rifle cases, the end is ragged and needs the attention of a deburring tool.

Most folks do not trim 38 Special cases and perhaps it is not necessary, but I think it is worth the time and effort and beside, I enjoy the hands on aspect of reloading.

[bedbugbilly]

Gosh . . . I hope I never get that bored. LOL I not only shoot 38 spl but 38 Colt short & long . . . that would be three times the work! :-)

But on the other hand . . . cold winters do make a person go stir crazy!

[Ola]

I personally don't trim straight walled cases but I know a bunch of shooters that do it all the time. Those guys are serious metallic silhouette shooters. Of course trimming is just one of steps they do to get ammo that's accurate enough for them.

(Initially I thought they were crazy but then I saw the difference it makes in f.e. .44 Mag revolver..)

[Char-Gar]

Gosh . . . I hope I never get that bored. LOL I not only shoot 38 spl but 38 Colt short & long . . . that would be three times the work! :-)

But on the other hand . . . cold winters do make a person go stir crazy!

I trim 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 45 Colt, 45 ACP and 45 Auto Rim. I live in tropical deep South Texas so I can't blame it on cold winters.

If I am crazy or weird it is to be found in the fact that I don't want to waste time loading mediocre ammo. I have never striven for mediocrity in life for anything. It is just not in my DNA. I will do whatever it takes to do it right!

[1Shirt]

Regardless of the boredom factor, it was a most interesting thread, and was well written. Thanks~
1Shirt!

[Scharfschuetze]

I'm still using a bucket full of Federal 38 Special brass that I bought in the mid-70s for PPC shooting. Only a very few cases have split over the years, certainly no more than 2 to 3%. Of course they were loaded with 148 grain wadcutters over either 2.7 grains of BE or 3.3 grains of 231 and enjoyed minimum belling and a light crimp. I've never bothered to anneal them as I have plenty brass, but so far it seems there has been no need to do so given the light charges, minimum belling and the light crimp. I have no idea how many rounds each case has fired, but it's a bunch.

I've always kept my 50 yard brass separated and kept it trimmed for an even and repeatable crimp from case to case.

[robertbank]

I trim 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 45 Colt, 45 ACP and 45 Auto Rim. I lived in tropical deep South Texas so I can't blame it on cold winters.

If I am crazy or weird it is to be found in the fact that I don't want to waste time loading mediocre ammo. I have never striven for mediocrity in life for anything. It is just not in my DNA. I will do whatever it takes to do it right!

I missed the part where what you are doing is right and what someone else does is wrong. Do you think factory ammo is mediocre because they sure as heck don't trim every case to the same length and for many it works just fine? Kinda depends on what you are using the ammo for and how much of it you are using I would think.

Bob

[RedHawk357Mag]

Enjoyed this thread.

[SteveS]

If I am crazy or weird it is to be found in the fact that I don't want to waste time loading mediocre ammo

Yep. I wouldn't think of loading cases I haven't trimmed to uniformity.

[Char-Gar]

SteveS.......On this site we worry and fret about getting the right cast bullet from the right alloy, with the right lube, with the right size, over the right charge of the right powder. Assuming we have done all of that correctly, why would you want to stuff that perfect bullet and powder charge into cases that are not uniform in length and do not have square case mouths? Such cases will produce crimps that are not uniform which will result in pressures that are not uniform, which will in turn degrade accuracy.

I have no quarrel with the fellow who wants to load mediocre ammo for fun and casual pinking, for I have done so myself. But we should be honest with ourselves and realize it is not the best we can produce. If anything less than the best we can produce is unacceptable, then we trim cases to uniformity.

This is just a longer way of saying you are very correct.

[robertbank]

Char Char I load about 10K rounds a year for IDPA and IPSC both in revolver and pistol. The ammo I produce is as accurate as I can possibly shoot and for action shooting, steel shoots and banging away at targets of interest. Rarely do I apply anything more than a taper crimp to my 38spl cases, relying on friction to hold the bullet in place. I have never experienced light loads of 38spl causing bullet set back = last year I shot close to 5K of 38spl and have been doing it for three years now. My 9MM, 40cal and 45acp cases all require a taper crimp so trimming the cases would have no affect at all on performance or the the crimp.

The ammo is not mediocre and is far more accurate than I can shoot. Unlike some who claim +Olympic abilities in shooting prowess either in their youth or their present state I have never been so blessed. I can't think of a soul in the action shooting sports who trims their brass so I guess I am not the only one who manages to limp along with what you refer to as mediocre ammo.

If you shoot a few rounds a week and are doing your best you can and want to take time to trim your brass thinking it will overcome aging eyes and slower reflexes fill your boots. I don't and it won't. God knows I have tried. I shot no better with trimmed brass and soon realized the minimal advantage to do so at ranges inside of 25 yards. Lide is short enough as it is.

Take Care

Bob
Ps Is that a nice way to say attaining maximum accuracy may not have any practical value for the intended use of the ammo.

[ReloaderFred]

As an old PPC shooter, with boxes full of old trophies, I still won't trim handgun brass, as I consider it a waste of the precious time I have left on this round chunk of rock and water.

Like I mentioned above, when I look at the 5 gallon buckets full of .38 Special brass that I reload regularly (roughly 8,000 to 10,000 per year), it makes me shudder to even think of it, so I don't. I can still hold relatively tight groups, depending on the firearm, and all I shoot in handguns are open sights, since that's what I'm used to. I'd much rather spend that time in casting bullets, since there never seems to be enough of them.....

The bottom line is, it's my shop, so I make the rules. One of the rules I made is if a piece of handgun brass appears to need trimming, which they very, very seldom do, then it goes in the recycling bucket, never to be thought about again.........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Char-Gar]

Fred...Reloaders, like people in general are quite different, with different goals, standards and temperaments. Friction and problems between people start when folks try and say their way of doing things is the best/only way of doing things. They tend to bolster their position by posting their experience and accomplishments as if that validates their opinions to be superior to that of others.

Lots of folks here have fired hundreds of thousands of reloading round, even up to a million. Even so, they still don't agree on every aspect of how it is to be done. Their individual personalities and goals show up even after extensive experience. None of them have done the laboratory type scientific testing with accumulated date to be empirical truth. Well, there is one person here, that does have the data, so that is not quite absolutely true. At any rate, all we do is relate our anecdotal experience along with conclusions and experience we draw from that. As least I certainly do.

It matters not to me whether folks trim or don't trim their 38 Special (or other) cases. That is an individual choice.

I do have extensive experience in Bulleye competition with the 38 Special round that mounts into the hundreds of thousands of rounds. Trying to cut the X-Ring at 50 yards is much different from the more modern tactical games like PPC, IDPA and the like. The level of accuracy needed to bring home the gold in Bulleye is considerably higher.

All I do is set out my experience that may or may not be relevant to what others do. I am simply responding to the folks who think that case trimming is some sort of time consuming, useless activity that is just a personality quirk. I fully admit I have my full quota of quirks, but I also firmly believe, that is a person is seeking ultimate accuracy from the 38 Special round, they will trim cases to a uniform length. Most folks are not seeking ultimate accuracy, but some are. My post is directed to those who are and not to those who are not.

I no longer shoot Bulleye and at my age could not compete with the younger set either. I do shoot competition falling plate matches with race gun 22, a Clark Ruger MK II. I bring home my share of prize money, but that is rather coarse shooting compared to Bulleye. However, I persist in trimming my centerfire cases, because the old ways are still strong in me. It gives me pleasure to drop a round into a cylinder knowing it is the best possible round that I can load. Perhaps that is just a quirk also.

I do not discard brass when it needs trimming, I just trim them. As you said, "My shop, my rules". The road ahead of me on this earth is much shorter than the road behind, and I am aware my days are short. Soon enough, I will leave the range for the final time. Therefore I will use them in ways that give me pleasure. Loading precision ammo is one of those things that give me pleasure.

At any rate, this thread seems to not be productive any more, but has just deteriorated to personal choice, opinion mongering and experience comparison. I think I have said all I have to say and said it more times in more ways that I should have. Therefore, I will just go on whistling down the road and let folks trim or not trim according to their wishes on the matter.

Take care and keep em in the X-Ring.

Charles Graff in Deep South Texas.

[45 2.1]

As usual in these type of threads, you see people with completely reversed opinions and methods telling people that their loads shoot better than they can, but you see no basis of comparison. For the people trying to learn what is and isn't good, that leaves a lot to the imagination and still doesn't help those who haven't learned what they wished. There is a middle ground in between where a lot of others exist also. People here have shot factory match quality groups and better..... and that depends a lot on just HOW you do things. A lot more emphasis needs to be put on the mechanics of how to get there than goes on in these things, then some good things could happen for everyone. Unfortunately, this forum really doesn't allow that.

[robertbank]

As usual in these type of threads, you see people with completely reversed opinions and methods telling people that their loads shoot better than they can, but you see no basis of comparison. For the people trying to learn what is and isn't good, that leaves a lot to the imagination and still doesn't help those who haven't learned what they wished. There is a middle ground in between where a lot of others exist also. People here have shot factory match quality groups and better..... and that depends a lot on just HOW you do things. A lot more emphasis needs to be put on the mechanics of how to get there than goes on in these things, then some good things could happen for everyone. Unfortunately, this forum really doesn't allow that.

This is all true IF you assume from the start the sole goal of this forum is to inform people how to produce and shoot the most accurate ammunition possible.

When someone comes on and says do it my way or your ammo is mediocre than something has to be said.

I respectfully submit their are wide reasons for folks to be here and their goals are not all the same. Some like to spend their time shooting small groups, the smaller the better and nothing else will do or is important. Others want to produce hunting ammunition, ammo for plinking or playing one of a number of shooting sports. Still others have a favourite rifle or handgun that is quirky to reload for and have made it their holy grail to make the gun work. All are noble pursuits and none are deserving of Alter Gaizing or derision. What is common for one is nothing more than wasted spit for another. Some are common to all.

Take Care

Bob

[45 2.1]

This is all true IF you assume from the start the sole goal of this forum is to inform people how to produce and shoot the most accurate ammunition possible.

When someone comes on and says do it my way or your ammo is mediocre than something has to be said.

I respectfully submit their are wide reasons for folks to be here and their goals are not all the same. Some like to spend their time shooting small groups, the smaller the better and nothing else will do or is important. Others want to produce hunting ammunition, ammo for plinking or playing one of a number of shooting sports. Still others have a favourite rifle or handgun that is quirky to reload for and have made it their holy grail to make the gun work. All are noble pursuits and none are deserving of Alter Gaizing or derision. What is common for one is nothing more than wasted spit for another. Some are common to all.

Take Care

Bob

Yep, what you said is true Bob, but some people ARE asking for more than what most people here can get, then the statement is entirely justified (since it wasn't qualified in the first place). What you or I or anybody else thinks is entirely on what they perceive (whether right , wrong or some gray area in between). Keep that in mind when you hear that some people here say you will have trouble when you do more than: this or that (I just bet you can put something there) thing. The perception thing depends entirely on what you know or don't know................