.416 Rigby from .40S&W brass?

[C. Latch]

With .40 brass being cheaper than .416 gas checks, I have to ask:

If I annealed some .40 brass to 'dead soft', then used them as jackets and pushed a lead core into them, could I simply size them in a push-through .416 die and make shootable bullets?

I'm thinking that I could get a Lee 379-250 mold, polish it out to .400 or a hair more (or get a custom mold made to drop a .400 to .410 bullet to use as a core....something in the 275 to 300 grain range), mash this bullet 'core' into annealed .40 brass, and push them through a .416 sizing die (Lee makes a .410 that could be polished to .416).

I realize, from reading this forum, that bullet swaging can be much, much more complex than this, but for a simple low-cost 100-yard plinking bullet, is there any reason this wouldn't work, and work without a massive investment in more tools?

[clodhopper]

The 40 brass will should be sized down to be few thousandths smaller than your finished bullet size.
A .379 mold might be just about right for making cores.
you might end up with a half jacket bullet though.

[SOFMatchstaff]

short answer is Yes. I do exactly what you describe for my 405 Win and I do it with a minimum of special tooling. I started with a Lee .410 push thru sizer just to prove the concept, an used a 357Sig size die to gently roll a crimp on the case. I skimped on the cores, just poured them in the sized case, so the weights varied a bit. the extraction rim is still pronounced enough to use a shell holder for most of the operations, so an ejector rod isnt needed most of the time. I am making a .412die to better match my bore(good luck with polishing .006 out) I only hope to have to polish about .0005.

I did the same style setup for the 38-55 and used the 30 luger to get a roll crimp, base case is a 9mm Steyr. So far both calibers have exceeded my expectations. the tooling costs so far have just been reamers and Lee sizers.

For the 416, you might use the 10mm case, for a bit more weight, the 40 case will give a button nose wad cutter shape, 290gr basic weight, the 10 should go 350 or so.

[BT Sniper]

I too have made 416s using the 40 S&W brass. Haven't read threw the entire thread yet but I know I had a thread on the subject I started years ago.

BT

[BT Sniper]

Here is a couple threads from way back.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?94741-The-416-project



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?97381-BTSNIPER-416-test-bullets


The shooter actually wound up taking a buffalo with these bullets!

[C. Latch]

Thanks!

I have some ideas forming already.

[elk hunter]

I make my 416 practice bullets from 30-30 brass. Turn the rim off and cut to length, anneal and push through a ring die to reduce the diameter, next I put in a cast core and swag the bullet to its final form. It's a lot of work but, given the cost of jacketed bullets I feel it's worth while. They shoot accurately enough but are too fragile for hunting big game. I did shoot one spike elk with one, wouldn't do it again, blood shot from one end to the other. A very nasty mess.

Good luck with your project. Please post some pictures of your bullets and targets.

[BT Sniper]

I remember that elk hunt story.

Good shooting elk hunter!

BT

[C. Latch]

So, here's where my mind is right now:

One option is to start with the Lee 379-250 mold and polish the rearmost 0.60" or so out to .400 or so.

It might be easier and better in the long run to get someone (accurate or mountain) to cut a .400" mold with a ~0.60" shank (including a gas check base, to more easily fit into the base of the brass) and a SWC type nose.

Ideally, this .400" bullet would be a slip fit into fired and annealed .40 brass, then a .40 sizing die would crimp the brass to the bullet , then I'd run these about halfway into a 6.8SPC sizing die to get the front of the brass started down towards 0.416", then finish them with a trip through a 0.416" push-through die. If the shank of the core was the right length, the brass case would be in perfect position to slightly roll-crimp over and help lock the core in place. With a reduced-diameter nose, no lead would touch the bore.

I made a prototype using some stuff I had on hand (.430" bullet, sized down using paper-patching until I could stuff it into a .40 case, then ran through a .430 sizer then ran into my 6.8SPC sizing die). The base is still right at 0.419" which is a touch too big, but the concept seems to work.

[C. Latch]

126634126635

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Looks like a good start. I really like the ingenuity! When you run the brass and core into the 40 sizer die does it grip the core very well?

I would be interested to see if you have a core mold made to where it can be crimped. I think it comes down to surface area of the core contacting the jacket. With a crimp there may not be enough case gripping the core to prevent the core from spinning in the jacket upon firing. Seating the core so there is firm contact with the entire jacket will help keep the core from spinning.

Sounds like a fun project! Keep up the good work.

[C. Latch]

Looks like a good start. I really like the ingenuity! When you run the brass and core into the 40 sizer die does it grip the core very well?

I would be interested to see if you have a core mold made to where it can be crimped. I think it comes down to surface area of the core contacting the jacket. With a crimp there may not be enough case gripping the core to prevent the core from spinning in the jacket upon firing. Seating the core so there is firm contact with the entire jacket will help keep the core from spinning.

Sounds like a fun project! Keep up the good work.

Right now I'd say the grip between the core and brass is pretty weak. With some difficulty I was able to move the core in the bullet pictured above.

I think I could put a drop or three of epoxy or other glue in the brass before inserting the slug. Worst case, it fails on impact and I would still have a ~250+ grain flat-nosed bullet. This is really a plinking experiment, but even the core ought to make a massive, deep wound in anything short of an elephant.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I think the epoxy idea may work. I do know that you don't want the jacket spinning faster than the core when it exits the muzzle. Someone with way more swaging and ballistics knowledge will come along and give more insight. I am interested to see how it shoots!

[Huvius]

Makes me think reaming out the bottom end of a mold to hold the sized brass and converting the mold to nose pour may be a good way to cast J-boolits and the core would hold quite well in the brass I would think.
I know it is not swaging but seems like you could end up with a similar result.
Anybody try that?

[SOFMatchstaff]

I mentioned that poured core in post #3, it works if you allow for shrinkage and drop a dab of rosin type flux in the case. I heat the case prior to the pour with a torch. the lead will button up on the case with surface tension and then shrink down into the case mouth as it cools. Like I said though , the weights are random doing it this way. I need to turn out a nose bleed punch or something to get any kind of consistency. As it is, the flux and the trip into the 357Sig size die for a strong roll crimp holds things together well enough for my experiments.

I am going to open up the Lee .410 die to .412 for the lead, as my bore slugs at .4125, and see what transpires at the 100yd line. With my eyes, buckhorns, and 290gr wadcutter test bullet I was happy to get 4" for a start with the .410 dia first prototypes, maybe the fatter pills will group better....

[C. Latch]

I had another thought today. I need to keep this project cheap to make it work; if I have to buy a $100 mold to make a special core, I could quickly end up approaching the cost of just buying some jacketed bullets, as I doubt that I'll ever turn this into a high-volume shooter.

On that note, I did some tinkering today. I dropped a 158-grain .38 bullet into a .40 case and torched it. This both annealed the case and melted the bullet. It left maybe 0.175" of unfilled case.

I did some back-of-a-napkin calculating and figure that if I had a $20 Lee 358-105 mold and a $20 Lee 401-145 mold, I could drop a 105 in a case, torch it to anneal and seat the 105-grain 'base' then have just enough room left to seat a 145-grain .40 bullet, run the whole thing as far into a .40 taper crimp die as it will go, then run the whole thing through a .416 sizer.

That would leave me with only $60 to spend.

I may need to rearrange the steps; I may need to size the .40 case before I fill the base with lead, then seat the 401-145 then crimp and resize....I'm sure there are multiple ways to skin that cat, and one wil make better results than the others, considering brass springback, etc.

The above-described idea should leave me with a 325-grain bullet and nothing but the 401-145 nose sticking out of the case, so that I can roll-crimp the case a bit and lock the core in place.

[tiger762]

Just be careful with heating up fired brass. There is sometimes unburnt primer left that will pop off. To be safe, first wet-tumble the fired brass.

[bikerbeans]

I like this project, looking forward to seeing your targets. I have a cz550 416 rigby so I am very interested.

BB

[fredj338]

Not the same thing, but I shoot a 404 Jeffery. Bullets are quite expensive & I am not a fan of lead bullets & the crud for practice. So I have a two step process to size 300gr 44 mag bullets down to 0.423", using Lee dies. First down to 0.427" then down to 0.423". Pushing the reswaged bullets along @ 2100fps, I can get sub 2" accuracy in my rifle, plenty good for speed drills or offhand shooting practice 100yds & under. Unfortunately, I think sizing all the way to 0.416 is a bit much.