Hollow Point vs Solid Boolits

[ejcrist]

I've never cast or used any hollow point cast boolits before but was thinking about possibly having a mold cut to give them a go. Specifically I'm thinking about trying a hollow point version of 429421 in a 44 Special Blackhawk. I like the way the 429421 performs at around 1,100 fps when cast from straight wheel weights or 16:1, but I'm thinking it would be nice to have the option if you ever wanted something that would expand more. The game in mind is deer, hogs, and javelina. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Gene

[Beagle333]

Some folks go for the punch-thru effect of the solids, some like the shock they get from the 'shroom of the HP's. It always ends up to be a sort of a Ford/Chevy argument. Pick your favorite boolits, test em on a few things and see how you like the holes you make, and then try em on your favorite game animal! Happy shooting! :Fire:


(trade for a few HP's in the Swappin' section before you buy a mold..... you might not like em?)
I shoot 90% HP's, but it really is a personal preference.

[DrCaveman]

Accuracy at longer range with the HP moving the center of gravity rearward while the bearing surface of the boolit remains the same? Much talk of this over time, not sure if there is agreement

Just got a NOE 453423 with HP pins and flat point too. Intend to test the theory. Accuracy is most important anyway, and if you also get increased wound trauma then in some cases it is win-win. Othertimes maybe the straight punch of a flat nose is preferred regardless of pinpoint accuracy. But aweome accuracy is still a good thing, and satisfying

[contender1]

I have a few Miha molds that have the option of solid or HP. I consider using the HP designs when I want more expansion, but the solids for serious penetration. I'd use the solids on hogs,,,!

[tazman]

I have an NOE hollow point mold for use in my 38 and 9mm. I have certainly shot enough of them. They don't seem to be any more accurate for me than the same in solid. It may just be the idiosyncrasies in my guns though. Or I may simply not be good enough to tell the difference.
For me it was a choice to try and improve accuracy. I cast from too hard an alloy to get expansion anyway. If I go softer, my accuracy goes away.

[harley45]

I like the solids they give complete penetration usually and allow for a better blood trail.

[dragon813gt]

I have plenty of both. All the hollow point molds have plug pins installed to cast solids. It's nice to be able to cast both. But the novelty of hollow points wore off quickly.

[Lloyd Smale]

your going to get little or no expansion cast out of an alloy as hard as ww at 1100fps unless you hit bone. If you want expansion cast out of 5050 ww/pure. do they work any better then a good flat nosed bullet? I don't know. Ive never had a problem with a flat nosed bullet killing. Maybe on deer sized game you might notice a quicker kill but dead is dead. Ill tell you one thing from experience though. Deer are the largest game id ever tackle with hps.

[trapper9260]

To me both boolits have there place and use and what will work for the one that is usen it .I use both but mainly the soild in FN .

[Zouave 58]

I think you might consider the characteristics of the game you are hunting at the time. Large game such as deer and also hogs because of their muscle/bone configuration probably would favor a solid hard enough to hang together and penetrate to the vitals. Hollow points cast relatively soft might be more useful on smaller animals when you want to control the energy dump to provide maximum shock without excessive penetration. In any case, it is difficult to get reliable expansion at handgun velocities so in all probability a relatively heavy bullet with a wide flat nose meplat might be the best all-around choice for a hunting bullet. Hollow points certainly have their place as a self defense bullet, however.

[petroid]

I have modified a 175gr 40 cal mold for hp and cast out of 50-50 it expanded nicely. The same TC boolit unmodified still expanded when cast from the same alloy. These were fired into sand at point blank range, velocity 950fps. In a self defense scenario, I tend to lean toward the HP as I feel it would dump more energy quicker into the target. For hunting, I feel like the solid would hit hard and penetrate without fragmenting. Totally unscientific but just my 2 cents.

[rintinglen]

If your goal is expansion, HP's rule--provided you push them fast enough. If your goal is penetration, then go with the solid. If your goal is accuracy, you pays your money and takes your choice. For defensive purposes, I do not want a projectile that can shoot through a moose, unless I reasonably expect being attacked by a moose. For personal protection against armed people, I want hollow points. For hunting, I prefer solid nosed projectiles, either WFN or SWC.

[9.3X62AL]

I am not a user of hollow-point cast bullets. As someone noted above, their novelty wore off quickly. For pure hunting uses, though--I am a firm believer in the effectiveness of the products made via the Bruce B Softpoint Casting method, which is stickied on this site. The making of these bullets is a little time-consuming, but 20 of the things will last through a few hunts in most cases. I was very impressed with the performance of a Lyman #311041 launched from my Winchester 30-30/1800 FPS at about 115 yards off the muzzle. Wound track ran from left rear ribcage and out right front shoulder, about 1/2" going in and 1.5" going out. Bang/flop.

[paul h]

Even though I have mp hp molds for my 357, wife's 45 and my 480, I see me mostly using solid ogival wadcutters for hunting chores.

I would like to try to take some game with the 400 gr hp in the 480, and I figure it should be fully up to the task for moose on a broadside lung shot.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/3/4/4/344100033/3691060602_D919199EEF9D1077F11D6429173684C5.jpg

Glacial silt is a pretty tough testing medium ;) but here's what the 400 gr hp looked like after blowing it's nose off. I figure a 300 gr wadcutter at 1000+ fps ought to be able to keep on chugging should the nose completely blow off.

[ejcrist]

Thanks much for all the info gents. One thing I learned on this forum is that typical alloys such as wheel weights don't expand. For the longest time I figured they did even if just a little, if the velocity was something north of 1,000 fps. Guess I was off-base on that one. I haven't recovered many cast boolits from game I've shot but the few I have didn't expand at all just as everyone stated. I was toying with the idea of trying cast hp's at least for jack rabbits since meat damage isn't as important as on deer and hogs/javelina, but now I'm thinking to stick with the solids. In my experiences the solids (SWC's) are extremely accurate, hit with authority, and penetrate like nobodies business. The biggest thing I have to keep working on is hitting the mark consistently while under pressure, which is something I'm constantly trying to improve. I even get Prarie Dog fever if I don't take my time and concentrate.

Gene

[white eagle]

I have used a cast hp on deer it was a bang flop at 79 yds with a 44 mag.
may say however that I have only taken 1 deer with the combo but the performance I got with it is encouraging

[osteodoc08]

I've shot one doe with cast. It was an Accurate 460400L and was a solid. Didnt have a chance to hunt this year. I shot, she ran a short distance and expired. No complaints with performance.

[c1skout]

Lots of reading on hollow points here
http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm

I've just acquired a Lyman Devastator mold in 45, but haven't got to do much testing with it..... and no hunting.

I've shot deer in the past with cast or maybe swaged hollowpoints from my muzzleloader and they worked well, but those were store-bought and punched clean through so I haven't seen what the bullets looked like.

[tazman]

I read through that Bruce B article on soft points. Good read. It seems to be a slow but very effective way to do a layered boolit.

[DrCaveman]

I read through that Bruce B article on hollow points. Good read. It seems to be a slow but very effective way to do a layered boolit.

Which article are you talking about? Is it the one about making soft point boolits with nicely adhered transition points, or did he do a write up about hollow ppints too? Link?

I do like bruceb's soft point thread. Havent tried it yet, since i should probably get a second furnace to do it right. It seems like a great idea, especially for higher-velocity stuff where i seem to get better accuracy with harder bearing surfaces.

Just like you, Tazman, i suspect my skill level is such that a lot of these subtle changes dont make a consistent difference. Thus ive been tinkering less lately, and trying to stick with the same loads and just shooting more. Not been doing a great job of that, since slim daylight hours and poor weather leave me more often in the garage or reloading room than out in the woods shooting.

There does seem to be merit in the stability of HPs compared to solids, but i cant yet tell a difference

[MakeMineA10mm]

I'm going to avoid the whole argument of HP vs. Solid and just make some notes about HPs, in case you decide to try them.

First of all, to have success with them, you have to think out the issue ahead of time. The alloy, nose cavity and velocity all need to be matched up.

If you all you have for lead is WWs, then you should look hard at the Lyman Devastator, as their HP cavity is designed to work with that alloy, and you should be aiming for 1100-1200fps for velocity.
Here's a pic of the Lyman Devastator next to it's solid-nose brother (the HP is a Lyman mould, and the solid-nose is a custom Lee mould that was running when I joined here):
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50516&d=1247341745


If you can get some softer lead, you can get by with the devastator at 800fps or so, or you can use the older-style (deep & skinny) Lyman HP cavity and push it back up to 1000-1100fps. If the slower velocity is interesting to you, since you're contemplating a custom HP anyway, you can also look at the "Big Ben" HP cavity that our own Cast Boolits Ben designed.
This is the older, traditional Lyman HP cavity (deep & skinny), which would be what a traditional 429421HP would look like:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50083&d=1232346418
This is the custom "Big Ben" HP cavity:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50082&d=1232346418

For illustration purposes (because you already said your caliber and velocity, but this might be interesting to others), if you wanted to shoot at higher velocity, say a 357 Mag at 1400fps, you should look at a cup-point cavity, like this:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50084&d=1232346827

You may have noticed the mould in these pictures, except for the 44 boolits up top, look alike. Well that's because I have all these various styles of HP pins for the same mould. It's a Lyman 358156. There's a member here, going by the name of BUCKSHOT, who is quite the machinist. This mould was sent to him and he and talked over the ups and downs of HPs, and I asked him to make me the Big Ben plus a stepped pin that made a hole like the traditional Lyman. That way, I had good HP designs for either 357 or 38 velocities. As we were talking, I also told him how I liked the idea of a pin that was shaped like the HP cavity in the Winchester JHP 45ACP 230gr - kind of a concave re-curve. He made me that one too:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50085&d=1232346827

Without asking and without charging me for it either, he also made me the cup-point pin and put a note in the box that I might find it a better cavity than the traditional Lyman one for the high-velocity 357 Mag loads. You can't beat that kind of service (which is really fraternal friendship, that goes on a lot around this place).

So, my thought is: If you decide to play with a HP 44 mould, and you want a great service at very reasonable prices, think about sending Buckshot a PM.

Now, I know what you're thinking: Well tell me about how your tests went with all four of those HP styles! Well, I'm very embarrassed to say that even though Buckshot did this mould for me a couple winters ago, and I've been able to set down and do some casting with it, I haven't had the chance to do some gelatin tests at the range yet. Maybe this Spring...

[Zouave 58]

Sure hope you can find time this spring- the results will be darn instructive.

[tazman]

Which article are you talking about? Is it the one about making soft point boolits with nicely adhered transition points, or did he do a write up about hollow ppints too? Link?

I do like bruceb's soft point thread. Havent tried it yet, since i should probably get a second furnace to do it right. It seems like a great idea, especially for higher-velocity stuff where i seem to get better accuracy with harder bearing surfaces.

Just like you, Tazman, i suspect my skill level is such that a lot of these subtle changes dont make a consistent difference. Thus ive been tinkering less lately, and trying to stick with the same loads and just shooting more. Not been doing a great job of that, since slim daylight hours and poor weather leave me more often in the garage or reloading room than out in the woods shooting.

There does seem to be merit in the stability of HPs compared to solids, but i cant yet tell a difference

You are correct. I should have typed soft point. I will edit to correct that.

[Wolfer]

I have the Lyman 429-424 that I had Eric put me a hybrid cup point in one cavity. I run it in a 44 spl at 950 fps. My alloy is soft, about 50/50. Bhn of 10
Ive never shot a live deer with the 44 but I've shot several with the 45 colt with 452-424 and the same HP at about the same speed.
Ive recovered two in the deer. One was a raking shot on a big doe, about 30" of penatration. One broke both shoulders of a fair sized doe and bulged the hide on the far side. It had mushroomed down to the grease groove.
On broadside or near broadside shots they nearly always exit even when heavy bone is hit.
I went to HPs to get a better blood trail than what I was getting from solids. My experience with solids was good. Blood trails may or may not be scimpy but their usually not very long.
If the HP exits I do get a better blood trail but the distance traveled before going down is about the same.

This year I shot a good sized doe and posted it in the hunting section along with the recovered boolit. Thread title is Classic 45 colt performance
This deer went 75 yds before crashing into a cedar tree. I heard her crash a few seconds after the shot.
This is the farthest I've had one go to date. 30 yds is more normal. I usually see them go down.
Im a big fan of two holes. For this reason I just want a cup type HP.
I believe that while I've never shot a deer with the 44 performance would be identical since the boolits are so close and shot to the same speed.

Im not a good enough shot to see a difference in accuracy between the HP and a solid.

[Shuz]

FWIW--You can take any solid design, like a 429421, cast it outta alloy that tests Bhn 9 to Bhn 11 and then use a pointed pin top punch, similar to the one Miha furnishes with his MP-433-300HP's, when you size the boolit and exert a little more pressure than usual sizing, to create a small hp in the nose.

[USSR]

Regarding the HP .vs Solid conundrum, as previously stated, matching the alloy with the hollowpoint dimensions and velocity is critical. And, from experience, when you are talking about shooting deer sized game with a .44 or .45 caliber with 250+ grain boolits, penetration is not an issue. Through and through shots are a given with either a HP or a Solid, and personally I will take the larger permanent cavity provided by the HP.

Don

[RJM52]

This was my first try at HPs and was quite pleased with the results. From past experience I would however say that 1000 fps impact velocity may not open a HP up....

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?263768-Three-Mihec-41

[Bigslug]

I'm going to avoid the whole argument of HP vs. Solid and just make some notes about HPs, in case you decide to try them.

First of all, to have success with them, you have to think out the issue ahead of time. The alloy, nose cavity and velocity all need to be matched up.


And not just the launch velocity, but the velocity at the distance of impact. . .all of which is why I have (for the time being anyway) sworn off the HP concept in favor of solids. They're easier to cast and there is a whole lot less planetary alignment involved with getting them to correctly do their thing on impact. A flat-nose.44 is likely to make a half to 3/4 inch hole completely through a lot of North American game regardless of whether of long range or short; soft alloy or hard; hot charge or mild. I'm willing to trade off quite a bit of "special effects" for that kind of boring consistency.

[MakeMineA10mm]

And not just the launch velocity, but the velocity at the distance of impact. . .all of which is why I have (for the time being anyway) sworn off the HP concept in favor of solids. They're easier to cast and there is a whole lot less planetary alignment involved with getting them to correctly do their thing on impact. A flat-nose.44 is likely to make a half to 3/4 inch hole completely through a lot of North American game regardless of whether of long range or short; soft alloy or hard; hot charge or mild. I'm willing to trade off quite a bit of "special effects" for that kind of boring consistency.

Great point!

Just for clarification - I'm a fan of HPs for personal defense, but not so much for hunting. Skinning a deer and looking at the meat you get out of it, I personally prefer less damage than more... If I'm REALLY close (35 yards or less), I'd even consider the head shot to be the ideal choice for deer hunting. (I had an Uncle who killed his deer every year with a 22 Magnum using a head shot. He used a Savage over-under with 20-ga. barrel underneath that 22 barrel, which he kept loaded with a slug. He never used the slug round...)

[Good Cheer]

The round nose is designed to feed through a pistol and it reloads easy in a revolver.
The short length of nose lost when giving a round nose a big hollow point is inconsequential.
There's no SWC shoulder to get past in the expansion of the nose.

This one is recycled scrap, from a 5" barrel 45ACP, just a standard type service load.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/mysterymetal_zpsb27efe0f.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/mysterymetal_zpsb27efe0f.jpg.html)

[tazman]

What did you shoot that into in order to get that much expansion?

[USSR]

This was my first try at HPs and was quite pleased with the results. From past experience I would however say that 1000 fps impact velocity may not open a HP up....

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?263768-Three-Mihec-41

Gotta keep the Sb out or at least very, very low. Try casting 20:1 alloy, which is what I use for 1000 - 1100fps loads in .45 Colt.

Don