Problem with powder coating????

[pahermit]

Guys, take a look on dardas bullet site.The owner states that powder coated bullets are bad for bores.

[Bonz]

I found the following info on their site.

There is currently a fad that has developed concerning the use of powder coatings to coat cast bullets for whatever reasons. Powder coatings are extremely hard and contain fine abrasive material. The main ingredient of powder coatings is Barium Sulfate. It is a fine white powder that has the same hardness as chalk and synthetic aluminum oxide. These compounds are excellent fine abrasives especially when high pressures are applied. The melting point of Barium Sulfate is 1580 degrees Centigrade. My point is that Barium Sulfate remains in its original powder form even after the binding polymer has reacted. I would never run this material through any of my barrels unless the intention was to firelap them. If you want to firelap your barrels, then by all means, please do use powder coatings. Or, contact Dave Tubb. He has been offering firelapping kits for quite a long time. The kit will save you a lot of money. We will not be participating in this current fad as we will not be responsible for ruined barrels and trigger groups.

On a different site, which I can't find at the moment, I found information stating that powder coated was better for barrels because there was less friction. They back up their statement by stating that powder coated bullets have lower velocity because they have less friction thereby lowering the pressure behind the bullet passing thru the barrel

[Efin]

I'd like to see his proof, just stating an ingredient in a product certainly doesn't prove it abrades the barrel. Some colors of PC's have been linked to possibly abrasion, but I'd like to see physical proof.

[StromBusa]

sounds like a good reason to shoot more.....I'll refer to it as "barrel testing".... save up enough on ammo to buy a replacement if I need to.

[bangerjim]

Guys, take a look on dardas bullet site.The owner states that powder coated bullets are bad for bores.

Being a salesman (like I am) he is trying to point out why you should buy from him. And not do home brew casting or coating. Capitalism at it's finest.

Many thousands of us on here and other sites have yet to have any significant problems. Sure, there are the random outliers that claim problems, but most have been proven to be caused by some other element in the overall casting/coating/loading/barrel hardness/shooting scenario.

Even so, I still keep an open mind and ear to comments that carry documented scientific proof of any such problems. Not just here say and speculation. Or a sales pitch. Proof will be in 2 identical guns bought at the same time fired exactly the same number times with the exact same loads, one with standard grease lube and one with PC. After 1000 or so rounds thru EACH gun, measurements and pictures will provide any proof........one way or the other.

Any volunteers? Something to contemplate and plan for this spring!

banger

[StromBusa]

I agree with Banger...someone should send me two identical uppers and ~20'000 rounds each of PC & Lube ammo. I'll report back with the results later. :p

[Beagle333]

I've heard that powder coated boolits will cure high blood pressure if you carry a couple in your shirt pocket next to your heart.
They'll also freshen up a bathroom if you leave a few scattered across the toilet tank lid.
And I tossed a couple of em up through the crawl space under the house and I haven't seen a single rat since I did that! :cool:

[xacex]

I've heard that powder coated boolits will cure high blood pressure if you carry a couple in your shirt pocket next to your heart.
They'll also freshen up a bathroom if you leave a few scattered across the toilet tank lid.
And I tossed a couple of em up through the crawl space under the house and I haven't seen a single rat since I did that! :cool:

Brother?

I thought I was the only one...

[xacex]

Being a salesman (like I am) he is trying to point out why you should buy from him. And not do home brew casting or coating. Capitalism at it's finest.

Many thousands of us on here and other sites have yet to have any significant problems. Sure, there are the random outliers that claim problems, but most have been proven to be caused by some other element in the overall casting/coating/loading/barrel hardness/shooting scenario.

Even so, I still keep an open mind and ear to comments that carry documented scientific proof of any such problems. Not just here say and speculation. Or a sales pitch. Proof will be in 2 identical guns bought at the same time fired exactly the same number times with the exact same loads, one with standard grease lube and one with PC. After 1000 or so rounds thru EACH gun, measurements and pictures will provide any proof........one way or the other.

Any volunteers? Something to contemplate and plan for this spring!

banger

I recently took a pound cast of my throat from a 300 blackout rifle that has shot many thousand powder coated bullets because of this concern that has been spread. You know what I found, nothing... There was no discernible wear from over 3000 rounds some of which were fired at 600 RPM. I will continue to use PC boolits in my 100$ guns to my 4000$ guns without worry. Well, hypothetically and all since my boating accident.

[StromBusa]

"fad"...bummer, I guess powder coating is today's bell bottoms.....

[bangerjim]

Bell bottoms are out????????????

CARP!

I still have some!

[smilie=w:

[Beagle333]

I heard that Bell Bottoms cure Restless Leg Syndrome, varicose veins, and arthritic knees. :coffeecom[smilie=1:

[flyingmonkey35]

As a avid shooter you will wear your barell out buy shooting ALL bullets .

End of debate.

[Smoke4320]

[QUOTE=Bonz;3079060] We will not be participating in this current fad as we will not be responsible for ruined barrels and trigger groups.

Oh NO Powdercoating will ruin my trigger group.. Well I guess I'm all done now ... NOT

[Gunslingerdoc]

Bores smores! It made my wife's poor attempt at repainting the front door knob look awesome - HF matte Black. Now she's happy and the door knob/handle looks awesome. Hopefully it will wear my mother in laws hands down to nubs and she wont be able to drive down and visit!....Then I'll PC it shiny black for safety

[bangerjim]

My pool furniture is powder coated.......and darned if it didn't wear the skin off my arms & legs!!!

:groner:

[Smoke4320]

I just powdercoated my shaver .. I will never have to buy another expensive blade again :) :)

[rsrocket1]

Capitalism at it's finest.

I guess FUD is part of capitalism [emoji43] Just like doing a "pump and dump" on a stock market message board.

I tried to educate some of the old sticks in the mud in the SmithandWesson forum and they cited Dardass' quote as well as rolling their eyes calling it "snake oil". Oh well, sucks being them.

[prs]

A week or two back I was the OP asking about the what role the pigment components played in the performance of powder coat paint other than just color. The colors are novel, fun, different, cool, and the part of this that "might" be faddish. What is in the back of my little warped mind is "what if we concentrated on using the clear vehicle only"? Would we get all the benefits, other than the excitement of color, without any shadow of doubt over barrel wear? I dunno. Hell, I don't buy into the barrel wear thing any way. Any way, Smoke, here I came!

prs

[bangerjim]

The plastic part of the coating is a polyester resin (or there abouts) and is clear. The other "stuff " is added to impart opacity and color and coverage. And in the case of the HF black, a flattening agent.

I have NOT tested or messed with the clear powders. Mabe Smoke can shed some light on what his powder is formulated from and the exact make-up and MSDS data. I doubt the clear resin would be abrasive at all (guessing), but I like colors and will continue to use colored powders.

banger

[fcvan]

I've bought some powder classified as a Top Coat which is mostly clear with a tinge of copper tint. That stuff really coats with ASBBDT and of course ESPC. I've only sprayed it once without adding the other colors I mix to make a copper color. The coverage was fantastic but the copper color was almost non existent. When tumbled the boolits are smooth as glass but the tint is blotchy. I tried to see if I could make marks by picking up the boolits with hemostats and couldn't do it. The powder just flowed when it liquified. I think the polyester resin being the predominate component of top coat powder is the key to great coverage.

[StromBusa]

barrels: better shot out than rusted away......

[popper]

I heard that Bell Bottoms cure Restless Leg Syndrome, varicose veins, and arthritic knees. I saw on TV that copper condom coated braces cured those problems.
Marketing blogs. I also saw that that brunette would come to my house if I took the little blue pill (or bought the right auto). Of course the wife would slam the door on her.

[SSGOldfart]

Humm has anybody PC their barrel,I might just try that in So I can shot uncoated lead without lube.

[prs]

I put an order in with Smoke for some clear and I have plenty of naked boolits jest'a wait'n t' put on a coat of it.

Rooster

[mdi]

I tried to educate some of the old sticks in the mud in the SmithandWesson forum and they cited Dardass' quote as well as rolling their eyes calling it "snake oil". Oh well, sucks being them.

As soon as I saw the Dardas post I thought of the S&W reloading forum. Each forum has a distinct personality and some of the "old timers" can and do dictate the flow of some threads. A forum "Guru" will make a statement, usually against whatever OP or prior post, and then the followers will jump on the wagon and agree, and the thread turns into a soap box for the old timer and his "facts" echoed by his "yes men". The forum expert has a huge number of posts so he must have extensive knowledge and experience, right? ;)

I too would likee to se a side by side test of PCed bullets vs plain lead bullets, and even throw in jacketed bullets yo make it fair. I would believe extensive testing be needed as any appreciable wear would take several thousand rounds (unless one is shooting hot loaded 22-250s). From what I've researched on my own and read on different forums PC coating bullets isn't a "fad" but a new alternative coating/lube for home casters...

[Smoke4320]

Clear PC is between 92 and 98% pure Poly

SECTION II - INGREDIENT INFORMATION


















Ingredient

CAS Number

PERCENTAGE



1,3,5 TRIGLYCIDYL ISOCYANURATE

2451-62-9

2 -10 %

























SECTION III - HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION














Emergency Overview
WARNING! MAY FORM COMBUSTIBLE DUST CONCENTRATIONS IN AIR (DURING PROCESSING)

PRIMARY ROUTES OF EXPOSURE: Eyes, Inhalation, Skin

Skin Contact: Incidental contact is not expected to cause irritation. However, exposure to this product may cause an allergic skin reaction and sensitization in some individuals. Repeated overexposure can cause skin dryness and may eventually lead to contact dermatitis.

Eye Contact: May cause slight to mild redness and burning. May cause mechanical irritation.

Inhalation: This product contains ingredients with established airborne exposure limits – see Section VIII. Otherwise it is considered a nuisance dust. No effects are expected when exposures are maintained below the exposure limits of Section VIII. However, exposure to this product may cause an allergic reaction and sensitization in some individuals. Lung and respiratory conditions may be aggravated by exposure.

Ingestion: May cause pain and upset stomach.









SECTION IV - FIRST AID MEASURES
















Eye Contact: Immediately flush eyes with cool water for 15 minutes, occasionally lifting lids to ensure complete rinsing. Seek medical attention if symptoms persist.

Skin Contact: Wash skin thoroughly with soap and water. Remove and wash clothing and shoes before reuse. Seek medical attention if irritation persists.

Inhalation: Remove to fresh air. If breathing difficulties develop, seek medical attention. If necessary, give artificial respiration.

Ingestion: Seek immediate medical attention. Wash out mouth with water followed by a cupful of water to drink. Repeat if vomiting occurs. Never give anything by mouth to an unconscious person.













SECTION V - FIRE-FIGHTING MEASURES



















Flash Range:

Not Applicable




Lower Explosion Limit Range:

30 GM/M3 - 90 GM/M3




Extinguishing Media:

Foam, CO2, dry chemical or water spray.















Fire and Explosion Hazards: An HMIS flammability rating of 1 applies to the product as supplied. However, airborne dust from the product can present a flammability hazard and may form explosive dust mixtures with air. A potentially dangerous situation exists when powder is transferred from a closed container to a process in which dust concentrations are within the explosion (flammability) limits. The concentration of powder dust in air should be maintained outside of the limits.

Firefighting Instructions: Use fully protective equipment with self-contained breathing apparatus.

Explosion: Avoid generating dust; fine dust dispersed in air in sufficient concentrations, and in the presence of an ignition source is a potential dust explosion hazard.





















SECTION VI - ACCIDENTAL RELEASE MEASURES














Sweep up carefully or use explosion-proof vacuum cleaner. Then dispose of in accordance with local, state, and federal regulations.

Dust deposits should not be allowed to accumulate on surfaces, as these may form an explosive mixture if they are released into the atmosphere in sufficient concentration.

Avoid dispersal of dust in the air (i.e., clearing dust surfaces with compressed air).

Nonsparking tools should be used.










SECTION VII - HANDLING AND STORAGE









Keep all equipment clean and work areas free from dust. Avoid excessive skin contact. Do not ingest or inhale. Personnel should be trained in the safe handling and proper use of this product.
Wash thoroughly after handling, especially before eating, drinking, smoking, and using restroom facilities.

Store in a cool, dry, well ventilated area away from heat, ignition sources, and direct sunlight. Keep containers tightly closed. Protect from physical damage.

Minimize dust generation and accumulation. Routine housekeeping should be instituted to ensure that dusts do not accumulate on surfaces. Dry powders can build static electricity charges when subjected to the friction of transfer and mixing operations. Provide adequate precautions, such as electrical grounding and bonding, or inert atmospheres.












SECTION VIII - EXPOSURE CONTROLS/PERSONAL PROTECTION














Product ingredients other than ingredients with established airborne exposure limits may be considered under the PEL for particulates not otherwise regulated (nuisance dust).









Occupational Exposure Limits

















Ingredients

ACGIH TLV

ACGIH TLV-C

ACGIH STEL

OSHA STEL

OSHA PEL



1,3,5 TRIGLYCIDYL ISOCYANURATE

0.05 mg/m3

n/est

n/est

n/est

n/est



NUISANCE DUST

10 mg/m3

N/est

N/est

N/est

15 mg/m3 (total)




3 mg/m3




5 mg/m3 (respirable)

















The Health and Safety Executive (Great Britain) has set a rocommened exposure limit for powder coating products containing less than 5% (w/w) Triglycidyl Isocyanurate (TGIC) of 2 mg/m3 [Engineering Information Sheet No 15 (rev2] . This limit value is based on an occupational exposure limit for pure TGIC of 0.1 mg/m3, which differs from the ACGIH TLV given above. Using the ACGIH TLV for TGIC of 0.05 mg/m3 gives a recommended occupational exposure limit for powder coating products containing less than 5% (w/w) TGIC of 1mg/m3. Exposure limits for products containing less than 5% (w/w) or more can be calculated based on the upper TGIC percentage in section II. The formula to calculate limits is "5/(percent TGIC)=mg/m3."









ENGINEERING CONTROLS: Provide ventilation to keep airborne particulate concentration below established airborne exposure limits (TLV's or PEL's). It is recommended that all dust controls handling this product be explosion proof, contain relief vents, or other commensurate measures. Ensure that dust-handling systems (such as exhaust ducts, dust collectors, vessels, and processing equipment) are designed in a manner to prevent the escape of dust into the work area (i.e., there is no leakage from the equipment). Ventilation equipment, baghouse, and cyclone dust collection should be grounded. Curing ovens and heating chambers should be properly vented to prevent any fumes from entering the workplace.

RESPIRATORS: Use a properly fitted NIOSH/MSHA approved respirator if needed to avoid breathing dust.

SKIN PROTECTION: Protective gloves & clothing recommended.

EYE PROTECTION: Goggles or safety glasses with side-shields recommended.























SECTION IX - PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES


















Form:

SOLID POWDER



Color:

TBD



Odor:

NEGLIGIBLE



Solubility (in water):

INSOLUBLE



pH Value:

NOT APPLICABLE



Boiling Range:

NOT APPLICABLE



Vapor Pressure (mmHg):

NOT APPLICABLE



Melting Point:

< 300° F



Evaporation Rate:

NOT APPLICABLE



Vapor Density:

NOT APPLICABLE



Partition Coefficient:

NOT APPLICABLE



% Volatile Weight:

< 1 (one hour at 110° C)



% Volatile

See Above



Specific Gravity:

1.20



Molecular Weight:

MIXTURE














SECTION X - STABILITY AND REACTIVITY














Stability: This product is stable under normal conditions of storage and use.

Hazardous Polymerization: Hazardous polymerization will not occur.

Hazardous decomposition products: Combustion byproducts may contain
CO, CO2, incompletely burned carbon compounds, NO2 or other

[StromBusa]

TRIGLYCIDYL ISOCYANURATE is added as a chemical hardener from what I see....I doubt if it is abrasive to any extent.

[koehn,jim]

Are there not many experts that say I cant use cast in my semi autos safely. Until he shows me proof he is just wind.

[WMB30]

I run Smokes Clear on my PC'd cast lead bullets thru my Glock 40 S&W without problems.

Bill

[nagantguy]

Off topic slightly but best powder I've ever used for any purpose for coating anything is from smoke4320, thousands of rounds out of a dozen or so weapons and no I'll at all, no leading and good accuracy as well

[blackbike]

Humm has anybody PC their barrel,I might just try that in So I can shot uncoated lead without lube.

ha ha ha I like the way you think, you old fart, keep us posted.

bb

[ioon44]

[QUOTE=mdi;3080488]As soon as I saw the Dardas post I thought of the S&W reloading forum. Each forum has a distinct personality and some of the "old timers" can and do dictate the flow of some threads. A forum "Guru" will make a statement, usually against whatever OP or prior post, and then the followers will jump on the wagon and agree, and the thread turns into a soap box for the old timer and his "facts" echoed by his "yes men". The forum expert has a huge number of posts so he must have extensive knowledge and experience, right? ;)

Well put, mdi Well put.

[gpidaho]

I tried to get the "Old Guard" over at the Cast Bullet Assoc. on board with this for quite some time with much of the same skepticism. One very respected member ran some tests that shed good light on the subject, and It's now being accepted by some, and at least looked at by others. I've never tried to promote this as a bench rest technique, but I truly believe in it as a better option for us recreational shooters. As I've posted before, some guns are going to have there own opinion of the rounds you produce no matter what the variable. Keep in mind that it is somewhat hard to do a side by side test of PC vs. lube as you are changing the dimensions of the boolit with PC . As one member has said " Change one instrument in the orchestra and you've changed the whole tune" GP