POA on 1911 with cast loads

[newton]

Do you all notice a drastic difference between factory and cast loads, given the same weight projectile? I've been shooting what I would consider some decent mid range loads(yet to chrony them) and it really seems that they are hitting low. I did chrony the load I was using before this one, and it ran around 850 fps. I am sure this one is at 900 or above.

When I hold the sights center of target, versus the normal 6 o'clock position I'm used to, the rounds hit the bottom of the target. Let me clarify. I make a 3" square and cover it up with my front sight. At 20 yards, that 3" square is just covered so that if I move one way or the other I see an edge. Most all the rounds end up congregating at the low edge of this, with the occasional flyer here and there.

What's interesting is that it seems the same when I move up to 10 yards. So I am curious if its the load, or the sights? I could see this happening if I was using a 6 o'clock hold, because then they would be hitting where a center hold is. But I am not sure how to adjust for this. I guess I could call the company and ask them what the norm is. I just assumed, from most of what I have read, that your regular production 1911 guns are generically setup for 230 ball ammo, with a center hold, at 25 yards.

I have not tried 25 yards yet, guess that's the next step. I suppose they could still be on their way up at 20 and 10?

20 yard 8 rounds
126386

Then 10 yards 8 rounds
126387

Not sure how the pictures will turn out, but the screws are at the top and bottom of the plate. Of course, the bottom end of the plate has the boolit holes.

[DougGuy]

Generally, a faster boolit will shoot to a lower POI because it leaves the muzzle sooner than a slower boolit, and as the muzzle flips up in recoil, the slower boolit gives the muzzle more rise time before it leaves, so the muzzle is actually pointed upward a little more when the boolit leaves the barrel, therefore you have a higher POI.

[newton]

Generally, a faster boolit will shoot to a lower POI because it leaves the muzzle sooner than a slower boolit, and as the muzzle flips up in recoil, the slower boolit gives the muzzle more rise time before it leaves, so the muzzle is actually pointed upward a little more when the boolit leaves the barrel, therefore you have a higher POI.

Ok, that makes sense. So is this a normal thing? Hitting this low with a center hold, using ammo that closely resembles factory ballistics? I am pretty sure, based on load data and my previously tested loads, that I am very close to factory 230 ball ammo velocity, and I am using the Lee 230 TC boolit.

Is changing out rear sight a normal thing to do when shooting cast loads?

I guess the first thing to do is try it at 25 yards to see, but other than playing around, most of my shooting is going to be 20 yards and closer. I was shooting balloons yesterday and found myself having to awkwardly hold high to pop them. It just did not feel right. First 1911, so I am curious if this is a norm. Up to this point I have not been focused on targets but rather just getting the gun to work right. Now that its working right, I am focusing on targets/groups(hand control) and this POA/POI has got me thrown off.

[44MAG#1]

If you are going to shoot no more,than 20 yards just hold high unless you want to file the front or put on a higher rear. If you don't want to monkey with the sights hold to compensate. You are "making a mountain out of a mole hill."

[DougGuy]

Pick one and install it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=adjustable+1911+sight&client=firefox-a&hs=DhB&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=1LCqVOyQDoergwSA7IPQBw&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1669&bih=900

[ole 5 hole group]

I would say it's your grip - in that you are holding it tighter. At 25 yards you shouldn't see much difference, if any at all, between cast & jacketed. Now if your load is 200/300fps faster, yes, you will see a spread at 25/30 yards. Shouldn't see anything at 10 yards.

Adjustable sights are nice.:smile:

[newton]

I had same thing but when I install arched main spring poi went up so I did not switch sites. if only bullet then I would file site or lower lode to hit where aiming

Interesting. Cant file the front sight, it is fiber optic. I guess I will look into getting a higher rear sight. Holding high just seems to awkward to me. I could see lowering the load, but its shooting so well now I hate to mess with it. lol.

So it sounds like its a normal thing. You have a Para right? I don't know if you ever said for sure or not on that other thread.

[jcren]

Powder choice, or more directly the recoil pulse, can also make a big difference. As stated, fixed sights assume some muzzle flip before the bullet exits, I have noticed that certain quick, energetic powders (titegroup and be) hit 3-4 inches higher at 25 yds than my pet Unique load. I don't have a chrono yet, but load data indicates between 775 and 800 for either load. For me at least, quicker/sharper recoil pulse = higher point of impact.

[Larry Gibson]

newton

Even bullets of the same weight will have a vertical POI difference based on velocity. In the M1911 the faster the load the lower it hits. Your loads with the cast bullet at 850 fps are faster than most commercial 230 gr loads, hence your loads hit lower. Match the velocity for POI to POA or get new sights if POI + POA is what you want.

Larry Gibson

[newton]

I would say it's your grip - in that you are holding it tighter. At 25 yards you shouldn't see much difference, if any at all, between cast & jacketed. Now if your load is 200/300fps faster, yes, you will see a spread at 25/30 yards. Shouldn't see anything at 10 yards.

Adjustable sights are nice.:smile:

Adjustable sights are nice! Lol. I have them on my Ruger. Actually, I put a 'one hole' sight on my Ruger. But until then I was shooting a 6 o'clock hold.

I do have a tight grip, I would not say 'too tight', but I do hold on.... I've always heard that you wanted to be firm wristed when shooting a 1911. But tight grip on a pistol has always been the norm for me. I guess I could play with loosening the grip some. Never thought about that.

So would you be in the same boat that a taller rear sight is something normal to do? If a person maintains the same grip that is.

[newton]

Powder choice, or more directly the recoil pulse, can also make a big difference. As stated, fixed sights assume some muzzle flip before the bullet exits, I have noticed that certain quick, energetic powders (titegroup and be) hit 3-4 inches higher at 25 yds than my pet Unique load. I don't have a chrono yet, but load data indicates between 775 and 800 for either load. For me at least, quicker/sharper recoil pulse = higher point of impact.

Unique is what I'm using. 5.5 grains to be exact. The Lyman Book indicated that the slower powders tended to like the 45acp and 230 grain boolits better.

I may have to try some Red Dot and see what happens.

Powder choice did not even cross my mind, but makes complete sense.

[newton]

newton

Even bullets of the same weight will have a vertical POI difference based on velocity. In the M1911 the faster the load the lower it hits. Your loads with the cast bullet at 850 fps are faster than most commercial 230 gr loads, hence your loads hit lower. Match the velocity for POI to POA or get new sights if POI + POA is what you want.

Larry Gibson

I guess I got off on my research when I first started looking into things. I had thought that factory was 900+. Now this all makes a little more sense.

I was trying to match velocity, and that's why this was confusing me. But if I am exceeding velocity, then this all makes sense.

I'd rather not change sights.

[newton]

I do not own para but order one based off you're thred. will be here next week. I have other 1911 pistol and i solve poi issues by filing site or tweaking load. the change of msh is luck i think. if i had to i wouold just hold over if not change load.

Sounds like its a load issue. I'll be changing that first thing with my next loads. Good luck with your new gun! I'm happy with mine. Only thing I could say is that the 8 round mags seem to favor just 7 rounds.

[ole 5 hole group]

Adjustable sights are nice! Lol. I have them on my Ruger. Actually, I put a 'one hole' sight on my Ruger. But until then I was shooting a 6 o'clock hold.

I do have a tight grip, I would not say 'too tight', but I do hold on.... I've always heard that you wanted to be firm wristed when shooting a 1911. But tight grip on a pistol has always been the norm for me. I guess I could play with loosening the grip some. Never thought about that.

So would you be in the same boat that a taller rear sight is something normal to do? If a person maintains the same grip that is.

I wouldn't "loosen" my grip, as a consistent grip is important to accuracy. I have just noticed some shooters "bare down" a little more when shooting reloads for one reason or another. A tighter/firmer grip will lower the group. An inconsistent grip will result in a nice fairly tight "pattern".

Myself, I would either install adjustable sights or back off the powder charge if you're sure your grip hasn't changed. Changing rear sights from one load to another in my opinion would be a royal PITA - I've never done it. On fixed sights I've only drifted them and then held "Kentucky windage" for elevation.

On thing some people forget is when you get up close and personal to a target - you will shoot about 3/4" low, as your sights and bore line are that far apart. If you need to pop a snake in the head at 10/12 feet you need to aim high or you're screwed.:smile:

[newton]

Curious here, but what is a good Unique load to use with a 230 grain boolit, to get it to hit POI of normal factory 230 ball ammo?

[DougGuy]

Unique is not a very widely used powder for 1911. Sure it will work but there is a reason why you don't see it listed in a lot of load data. Normally when you don't see a certain powder listed, or very infrequently listed, is because A. it is unsafe and not recommended, or B. there are too many other choices which are better suited for the load in discussion.

[country gent]

Its not unussual to have to tinker with loads to get poa/poi as the powders available may produce diffrent harmonics, functioning cycles in a semi auto, diffrent recoil impulses and velocity diffrences also will affect this. An adjustable rear sight is a big plus triming a fixed sight can be a one way street as a new load may hit high and there will be no adjustment for that. To give you an idea of the amount of change you need here is a formula to give you a close idea. Error in inches X Sight radious in inches / range in inches. Error is how far off the hit is, sight radious is the distance between sights and range is the distance the target was shot at in inches. Make sure of the load you want to yse before "tuning " sights to it.

[MtGun44]

Try using Bullseye or Titegroup, which should take about 4.5 gr of either one
to make the 825 fps which is std for military 230 ball. If you have HP-38/W231
try about 5.1gr for the same velocity.

Ideally the boolit hole should appear just on top of your front sight when the load
is matched exactly to the gun. Realistically, for most purposes if the shot hits
within a couple inches of point of aim at working distances, this is usually good
enough, but sometimes you just want it "right", and it takes more effort. Lateral
error is easily corrected with dovetailed rear sights, but elevation is more difficult.

I think Larry is right, slow that boolit down a touch and you should get a bit higher
point of impact. May want to use 4.2 gr of TG or BE, or 4.8 gr of HP38/W231 to
make a larger vertical change, these should be more like 780-800 fps, although
different barrels will make up to 125 fps differences in chronoed velocities - this
is from real world experience chronoing a LOT of different .45 ACPs years ago
to check for Major Caliber loads in IPSC competition.

Bill

[jcren]

Mine is a Taurus, but my normal 5.7 grains of unique is a good 3 inches below point of aim. I had a 6.2 grain 230 tc load that hit under the fiber optic front dot at 25 yds, but I am not in front of my manuals, so double check that before loading a bunch. When I got started loading a local dealer told me "In God we trust; in all others, check the manual"

[newton]

Mine is a Taurus, but my normal 5.7 grains of unique is a good 3 inches below point of aim. I had a 6.2 grain 230 tc load that hit under the fiber optic front dot at 25 yds, but I am not in front of my manuals, so double check that before loading a bunch. When I got started loading a local dealer told me "In God we trust; in all others, check the manual"

This is about spot on for where mine is hitting, 3" low.



Thanks for the help guys. Unique and a little bit of Red Dot is all I have for now. Stores in my area are still wiped clean, and this is what I got. I'll back off on it and drag the chrony out. This all helps, think I'll be able to get it now. I hope at least.

I did go back and look at some of my older targets, with the little bit lighter load. They showed a little higher POI. I guess I never thought of it. I just "assumed" that the higher charge would bring the POI up. Kind of like rifle shooting. Learned that lesson quick.

[Jal5]

Experiment with a little less powder, you have nothing to lose. I setup some Bullseye loads both with plated RN 230 gr and with my own lead RN 230s and with a POA that is a little higher than 6 o'clock the POI is right on the bull. But these are both at the lower end of the spectrum for Bullseye. Easy to shoot and cycles the gun fine. In a Para Expert. Joe

[newton]

Found what country gent was talking about.

http://www.dawsonprecision.com/images/Instructions/FrontSightHeight.pdf


I'm going to test, but I am confused at what I am digging up on here in regards to loads using Unique and 230 cast. A LOT of guys are closer to the 6 grain range and saying they are "close" to factory ball ammo specs.

It could be my shorter OAL increasing pressures/velocity. Either way, I'll try some reduced loads before I am going to try to go up. I really thought that the 5.5 seemed pretty snappy anyways.

In the end, after looking on the web, seems Para has a thing for low hitting....3"-4" to be exact. So It may not be the load after all. Only testing will prove this one I guess.

[newton]

I did some very quick testing last night. After the chores were complete, I loaded up 5 rounds with 5 grains Unique.

First shot was at 20 yards, and it did indeed hit higher. I did not measure it, but I would say it was max 2" low, but for sure higher than the 5.5 grain charge. It was too dark to see well, so I moved up to 15 yards and fired the other 4. Not only did they hit just about an 1" low, but they all grouped into a 1 1/2" area with three of them touching.

So, indeed a lower charge seems the way to go not only for POI/POA but for grouping. They all cycled fine so it cannot be too low of a charge.

I may still need to do something about my sights, but I wont do anything like that till I know for sure I constantly hit in the same area.

Thanks for the help. Never would have thought that a lower charge would bring POI up. I am learning all kinds of new things with this gun.

[newton]

Well, put 45 more rounds down range and its for sure hits low. Guess those first 5 rounds I was just hoping. So I either need shorter front sight or adjustable rear. I'm crossing my fingers Para will help me out, but Dawson looks like my best bet. Right now it's .170" high, according to the calculation it needs to be .140"-.145". That will put me dead on.

[gray wolf]

Good advise from above post, but don't dismiss your grip, it has a lot to do with POI
All it takes is the slightest of movement in the down position to get what you are getting.
(Dropping the muzzle or a tiny jerk on the trigger)

Not saying your doing it, just saying it can happen.

These targets were shot with my Springfield 1911-A1
Yes they were shot from a bench, but you can see the bullet impact point does not move that much, hardly at all, even when the load goes up or down.

Forget 6 O-clock hold, it's for bulls eye shooting.

NOTE;
If you are shooting at 15 yards at a 6" bull and hold on the bottom of the bull ( 6 O-clock hold ) and hit the center,
then change to a 3" bull, your shots are high, 8" bull and they are low.
Change the distance and your all messed up again,

concentrate on the sight picture [_I_] , hold it on the spot you want to hit ( dead on hold ) You should hit dead on from a 7 yard to at least a 20/25 yard distance depending on your load, it may ( it will ) drop as the distance increases but you will be close.

Sight picture, see it when the gun fires, very smooth trigger release.
Shoot from a bag to get the best test shooting.

I do and my POI does not change when I stand.

[newton]

Thanks. Yea, it could be my grip, but if it is then I'm consistent with it. Lol. Actually, I have tried a higher and lower grip. I mainly rest(although not a total solid, made for handgun one) at 20 yards. I do shoot off hand at that distance, but all it does is open the groups up.

Ill be getting a new sight soon. For now I line up the fiber optic dot center with the line across the top of the rear sights. If that makes sense. Doing this I hit spot on.

I have alway shot 6 o'clock, but since I've been shooting this gun so much ive actually come to like the center hold. Just need to get the right sights to make it hit correctly. Wish I could figure out a way to modify the one I have.

[twc1964]

Reguarding unique for 45acp, i use 6.2gr with a 230 fmj and. 6.0 with lead rn at 1.260 oal. With the lee 230gr tc i had problems with the short oal needed to make em feed. Switched to wsf and all was good. Ymmv