What 45-70 Cast Bullets Do You Size Down For Your 45 Colt?

[huntersdog]

I was wondering how many folks size down their 45-70 bullets for their 45 Colt and handguns and rifles.

[GoodOlBoy]

None. I shoot mostly 250-255 gr RNFP Lead in my 45 LCs. In my 45-70 I shoot mostly 405gr HB or RNFP Lead. There wouldn't be a point in me sizing down a .458 405gr bullet to a .454 250-255gr bullet considering I would also have to chop quite a bit of lead off of them.

GoodOlBoy

[huntersdog]

I been reading some good things about the 457191 45
Cal. 292gr in the 45 Colt.

[RobS]

I've sized down the RCBS 45-325-fn that a forum member didn't want because it dropped at .457. I sized it down in two steps and it was a fine shooter. I prefer a boolit closer to 300 grains in a Ruger 45 Colt platform but go on up to 345-350 grains in a 454 Casull. Your thought on the 457191 isn't a bad idea if you are loading it for a TC or Ruger large frame 45 Colt.

If you are buying new though I would simply go with a custom mold design from one of the many great mold makers and get exactly what you are wanting and to cast at the specified diameter you need.

[GoodOlBoy]

That is a good bullet, however the long nose worries me for feeding in lever actions, and for cylinder lockup in some single action revolvers.

Some common bullets/molds you might consider that are already the right size for being sized for 45 long colt are..

Lyman #452651 (452 Diameter) 325 Grain Flat Nose Gas Check

RCBS 45-270-SAA (454 Diameter) 270 Grain Flat Nose - Sometimes called a "improved Keith" it CAN have feed issues in SOME lever actions. BTW IMHO Keith's 270gr didn't need any improvement. Just saying. Be advised if you get this to function without issue in your guns you won't have to push it very hard at all to get bang-flop kills on everything from whitetails to hogs.
RCBS 45-300-SWC (452 Diameter) 300 Grain Semi-Wadcutter Gas Check - Again Feed issues in some lever actions

Saeco#454 (452 Diameter) 300 Grain Semi-Wadcutter Gas Check - Again Feed issues in some lever actions

Lee C452-300-RF (452 Diameter) 300 Grain Flat Nose Gas Check

None of these match the nose profile on the 457191, and in my opinion the Lee C452-300-RF, OR the Lyman 452651 will have the fewest feed issues in a lever actions in general. If price of a mold isn't an object there are several great mold makers on the board (some of them have an extensive wait, but I understand they are well worth it), however for a truly impressive catalog of bullet shapes, types, weights, etc. I would suggest Accurate Molds. Click on the catalog link on their home page and be prepared to scroll and click for AWHILE. http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php (went ahead and linked you right to it for some real bullet configuration drool material) Also it isn't out of the realm of possibility to have one of the many fine custom mold makers here be able to recreate that 457191 in a 452-454 configuration for you.

Anyway good luck, I would be interested to see how it comes out for you.

GoodOlBoy

[huntersdog]

Here is an article on on sizing the Lyman 457191 down to the 45 Colt.


http://www.gunblast.com/JimTaylor_FullCircle.htm

[huntersdog]

That is a good bullet, however the long nose worries me for feeding in lever actions, and for cylinder lockup in some single action revolvers.

Some common bullets/molds you might consider that are already the right size for being sized for 45 long colt are..

Lyman #452651 (452 Diameter) 325 Grain Flat Nose Gas Check

RCBS 45-270-SAA (454 Diameter) 270 Grain Flat Nose - Sometimes called a "improved Keith" it CAN have feed issues in SOME lever actions. BTW IMHO Keith's 270gr didn't need any improvement. Just saying. Be advised if you get this to function without issue in your guns you won't have to push it very hard at all to get bang-flop kills on everything from whitetails to hogs.
RCBS 45-300-SWC (452 Diameter) 300 Grain Semi-Wadcutter Gas Check - Again Feed issues in some lever actions

Saeco#454 (452 Diameter) 300 Grain Semi-Wadcutter Gas Check - Again Feed issues in some lever actions

Lee C452-300-RF (452 Diameter) 300 Grain Flat Nose Gas Check

None of these match the nose profile on the 457191, and in my opinion the Lee C452-300-RF, OR the Lyman 452651 will have the fewest feed issues in a lever actions in general. If price of a mold isn't an object there are several great mold makers on the board (some of them have an extensive wait, but I understand they are well worth it), however for a truly impressive catalog of bullet shapes, types, weights, etc. I would suggest Accurate Molds. Click on the catalog link on their home page and be prepared to scroll and click for AWHILE. http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php (went ahead and linked you right to it for some real bullet configuration drool material) Also it isn't out of the realm of possibility to have one of the many fine custom mold makers here be able to recreate that 457191 in a 452-454 configuration for you.

Anyway good luck, I would be interested to see how it comes out for you.

GoodOlBoy

Thank you for the wealth of info, you just posted, I'm still wet behind the ears.

[High Desert Hunter]

I size down bullets from my RCBS 325 Universal, they drop at 343, and size down pretty easy. I wasn't aware that Mr. Keith ever designed a 270gr SWC for the 45 Colt? I shoot more of the 270-SAA bullets from all of my 45 Colts than I do any other bullets, mine weigh 290grs sized and lubed, so accurate I can't imagine using anything else.

[GoodOlBoy]

no problem huntersdog. I learn something every day on here, what kinda guy would I be if I didn't pass on what little I know :p BTW Thanks for that article that is a very interesting read. Glad to see my concern about some cylinder lengths wasn't unfounded.

GoodOlBoy

[MT Chambers]

The only one I ever bothered with is the excellent Lyman "Gould" HP, but get concerned about concentricity issues when sizing so much, I have so many molds for both sizes that I don't need to fudge them.

[huntersdog]

no problem huntersdog. I learn something every day on here, what kinda guy would I be if I didn't pass on what little I know :p BTW Thanks for that article that is a very interesting read. Glad to see my concern about some cylinder lengths wasn't unfounded.

GoodOlBoy

I read alot, but many of you folks have hands on with the casting and the shooting.

[altheating]

Not for a 45 colt, but I do size down a NOE 460-350 to.451 for use in my muzzleloader. They are checked with two layers of litho plate prior to sizing. They go through a bit tight but size perfectly, and they shoot great out of the ML. I do put a bit of spray on lube on them prior to pushing them through the star sizer.

[Nueces]

Back in the 70s, I found my Ideal 457191 threw slugs at 0.455", so I sized 'em to 0.454" and loaded them over a mild charge of 2400 for an early New Service 7 1/2" revolver. Fun to shoot and remarkably accurate at 150 to 200 yards. Sure landed with authority, too.

I don't recall the load.

[GoodOlBoy]

Hey I got reloading experience, but there's guys on here who can shame my knowledge half sleep any day of the week.

GoodOlBoy

[9.3X62AL]

I have run some RCBS 457-325-FN through my BisHawk 45 Colt, these were sized to .454" after sizing and lubing @ .459", which is about as big as that mould will pour them on its best day. There isn't enough front sight height on the BisHawk to use these bullets effectively, at least without some Tennessee elevation (related to "Kentucky Windage", I'm told). :) I will cast up another round of these slugs soon to test-drive them through the new-to-me Marlin 95 I acquired a year or so ago. Its throat and grooves are a tight .459", which might work with this skinny (to my way of thinking) 45 rifle bullet. Do Lyman and RCBS actually KNOW how few 45-70s come with .457" throats/grooves, and that most shooters AREN'T using black powder and 30:1 lead/tin and "bumping up" their undersized castings? One of my pet peeves, right here.

[GoodOlBoy]

Actually 9.3 I have to agree about the 45-70 molds being .457 instead of .458 or .459. I have no idea why they keep doing this! then most of the hollow base molds (which actually WOULD bump up) are .459s to start with...... I honestly think it's a case of a bean counter somewhere making decisions with little to no knowledge...

GoodOlBoy

[RobS]

I size down bullets from my RCBS 325 Universal, they drop at 343, and size down pretty easy. I wasn't aware that Mr. Keith ever designed a 270gr SWC for the 45 Colt? I shoot more of the 270-SAA bullets from all of my 45 Colts than I do any other bullets, mine weigh 290grs sized and lubed, so accurate I can't imagine using anything else.

He didn't

[GoodOlBoy]

Let's see Elmer Keith designed the 429421 in 1928. A 240+-gr 44 bullet. But in the 1960s he got tired of Lyman making changes in his designs and commissioned Hensley and Gibbs to make his designs. The H&G #503 (44 swc) the H&G #501 (45 SWC) and the H&G #258 (41 SWC) The H&G #501 commissioned from H&G by Keith HIMSELF which is a .454 and weighs (depending on alloy) 260+- to 270+- grains. But the thing about it was that Keith's original design had much wider bands than the "improved" version as well as a fatter grease groove, and a couple of other odds and ends.

So yes. Keith DID design the H&G #501 which WAS (and is if you can find one IS) a KEITH 45 caliber 260-270grain bullet.

Anyway there ya go.

http://handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=27

GoodOlBoy

[RobS]

Not starting a pissing match here however if I'm not mistaken the H&G #501 was designed as a Keith SWC 260 grain 45 Colt mold (not a Keith 260-270 grain mold). Yes it may drop at 270 grains with certain alloys however it was not designed for a final weight that heavy. It is similar to the 454424 250 grainer but to be at 260 grains. You are right though that this mold could drop a 270 grain boolit with X alloy.

Ballisti-Cast #1101 is said to be the H&G #501. IIRC Forum member LAH is/was, not sure if he is still commercial casting, using Ballisti-Cast molds cut with H&G cherries which were provided to Ballisti-Cast. There are threads somewhere talking about the "Real" Keith boolits and LAH has some good insight posted. None the less Elmer never intended for a 270 grain 45 Caliber design.

[9.3X62AL]

Actually 9.3 I have to agree about the 45-70 molds being .457 instead of .458 or .459. I have no idea why they keep doing this! then most of the hollow base molds (which actually WOULD bump up) are .459s to start with...... I honestly think it's a case of a bean counter somewhere making decisions with little to no knowledge...

GoodOlBoy

Good Old Boy, It's either a bean counter or a case of "We've always done it that way, so that is how it's done, dad gun it!" When black powder was The Only Fuel 125 years ago, and either pure lead or small-percentage lead-tin alloys were the bullet metal, an undersized slug in a 45-70 could be reasonably expected to "bump up" from the low-order detonation provided by The Holy Black. Nowadays, people love to use uber-hard alloys with their smokeless loadings, some of which aren't high-pressure at all, and the likelihood of significant bump-up is quite remote. So, you better make sure that 1) your bullets fit the throat and grooves of the firearm you are dealing with and 2) none of your tooling used to process the brass reduces the diameter of your bullets during the loading sequence. The two chief offenders here are a) too-small expander plugs and b) improper use or over-application of taper crimp dies.

[9.3X62AL]

More Lyman mould design poetry, eh? I own two of these in the #454424 flavor, the older an Ideal single-cavity and a newer but certainly not "new" Lyman doppelganger. Both produce what I term a sort of "squatty", short 455" semi-wadcutter casting form weighing 255-257 grains in 92/6/2 alloy. Both have 3 full-caliber drive bands and squared-form lube groove, but the older form's bands are about .05" longer each and the lube groove a little narrower than the 2-banger's products. I can't tell a difference in performance between the two on paper, but only use the 2-holer due to concern about consistency that is probably unjustified. They run to 1200 FPS without leading in my BisHawk sized at .454", though most of my loads in this roller now hover around 1000 FPS. Megafauna may have run rampant in California during my youth, but as I approach the heart of my retirement years their numbers seem to be in decline.

[Nueces]

In the 70s, before the current cast bullet renaissance, Lyman commonly produced moulds that cast 0.311' for 30 calibers and 0.455" or so for 45s. The magazine writers of the time howled that these were too large to size to the 'proper' 0.308" and 0.451". The factories responded and we now have what we have.

Thank goodness for our semi-custom makers. These are the good old days.

[RobS]

I forgot that there are people who have used the Lee 457-340 RF and sized them down for Ruger 45 Colt loads but I can't remember if they were able to crimp in the crimp groove or just over the front drive band in order to get the COAL for chambering. I sized down the Lee 457-405 RF for my 454 Casull and it was an "ok" affair. If you are going to size down a boolit more than .003-.004" it does help to size/lube to let's say .454 in your situation and then come back and size again if you need a smaller diameter, .452.

[ballistim]

Good Old Boy, It's either a bean counter or a case of "We've always done it that way, so that is how it's done, dad gun it!" When black powder was The Only Fuel 125 years ago, and either pure lead or small-percentage lead-tin alloys were the bullet metal, an undersized slug in a 45-70 could be reasonably expected to "bump up" from the low-order detonation provided by The Holy Black. Nowadays, people love to use uber-hard alloys with their smokeless loadings, some of which aren't high-pressure at all, and the likelihood of significant bump-up is quite remote. So, you better make sure that 1) your bullets fit the throat and grooves of the firearm you are dealing with and 2) none of your tooling used to process the brass reduces the diameter of your bullets during the loading sequence. The two chief offenders here are a) too-small expander plugs and b) improper use or over-application of taper crimp dies.

I purchased an old single cavity Lee 457-405-F single cavity mold almost 2 years ago after reading 9.3X62 AL's 45-70 duplex posts & was fortunate enough to have it drop at .459 since both my 1895 & H&R BC slugged exactly .457-what are the odds of that? I sized at .458 & lubed w/ BAC w/alloy at 14 BHN. Accuracy with the duplex load was impressive with no leading or unburnt powder, and I now have a low cost functional load for both my 45/70's. I was concerned about an oversize bore & undersized mold, so am fortunate they weren't. I didn't mean to hijack this thread, but felt part of this applied to the post & wanted to thank 9.3X62AL for giving me the chance to have an accurate low cost load that works out great for me & my guns. I haven't purchased a chrono but would like to find out since I'm guessing it would make a nice deer load. I think I might have been fortunate enough to get the sizing/hardness combination to work with the charge used, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

[9.3X62AL]

That load (6.0 x 4198 under 48.0 x WC-860) yields about 1300 FPS from the now-departed Ruger #1 and its replacement Marlin 1895. Pretty much a blackpowder duplicator load in my experience.

[GoodOlBoy]

So the argument becomes. OK Keith DID design a 45 bullet, but he didn't design it to use X alloy that would drop 270 grains despite that having been the most COMMON grain weight it was cast in since it's implementation? wow........ ok......

Anyway back to the OPs question there are ALOT of options from the ultra light to the ultra heavy for the 45 long colt without having to go as far afield as resizing 45-70 bullets. However many HAVE done the resizing with good results. I would still like to see what you come up with and how it shoots for you.

GoodOlBoy

[ballistim]

That load (6.0 x 4198 under 48.0 x WC-860) yields about 1300 FPS from the now-departed Ruger #1 and its replacement Marlin 1895. Pretty much a blackpowder duplicator load in my experience.

I've used your duplex load above using both WC-860 & WC-872, both work well & very little difference between the two in my guns.

[jaydub in wi]

I thought that the rcbs 45 270 saa was designed by Mr. Dave Scovill of handloader magazine.

[GoodOlBoy]

jaydub I think you may be right that Dave Scovill DID design the rcbs 45 270 SAA. Like i said it is often listed as an "improved" Keith. Well somebody had to "improve it" so there ya go. It is a VERY effective bullet if it feed for you.

GoodOlBoy

[nighthunter]

I size down Mihec's 460-122. I powder coat them then size to .457 and then resize to .452. They shoot very nice.

Nighthunter

[GoodOlBoy]

I have no evidence other than my assertion that there were bullets I once possessed and are now long gone that a H&G mold ever dropped a 270grain +- Keith bullet. For accuracy sake everybody should consider RobS to have the correct information. I was wrong. I am wrong. I apologize.

Thanks Rob for taking the discussion to pms.

GoodOlBoy

[44MAG#1]

I have sized down NEI 520 gr bullets and have loaded them in 45 Colt cases and used them in a 12 inch Encore in 454 Casull. Runs 1250 fps chronoed. Nice load.

[Cornbread]

I use the Lee 457-340-F sometimes in 454 Casull and 45 Colt. I bought it for my 45-70 but it ended up liking larger diameter bullets better (.460 - .461ish) so I got a 350gr mold from NOE that drops .461 with my alloy. The Lee 457-340-F mold was cheap and casts great so I keep it and use it for 454 and 45 colt sized down to .454 over a load of IMR-4227. It's not my best performing bullet for these guns but it works and sometimes it's fun to have different bullets to play with.

[JSH]

LBT, Keith and Mauser just to name a few, have become a some what generic term. Or, "style".
It it is one or the other but it can't be both. A tip of the hat to those of you here that researched in depth trying to clone to the best of your findings these designs.

[44MAG#1]

This is not about "who designed what" it is about sizing down 45/70 bullets to use in a 45 Colt.
Anyone that is a Diehard Keith fan knows what he designed that became famous. His alloy at that time was 1-16 tin lead. Keith fans (???????) don't???

[NVScouter]

Just the LEE 340g sized to .454. Its a nasty round full house or even starting data. I push it over 1100fps in a 4" and over 1300fps in a 7.5". Its a good bear load but I dont shoot it much any more, maybe 3 times a year. I'm happier in the 255-300g weights for 99% of what I want. The generic 255 cowboy design at 1400fps is fantastic for about everything.

[Thin Man]

I have been moving boolit diameters both up and down when loading for a Webley MK VI. The first project involved a Winchester mold 45/60 sized down to .456. Loaded in 45AR cases (pistol had already been "cut" before it came to me), the boolits could not be seated to a COL that would not bind in the chambers (long fat nose) and leave comfortable room in the case for powder w/o pressure concerns. That took me to the Lyman 454190, hand lubed and crimped in the top lube groove. These went into the chambers without issue. Loaded over either 3.3 or 3.5 Bullseye, both loads hit at the sights. No pressure signs, clearly not over loaded and a very close copy of the original loading. Joy and happiness.

Thin Man