.680 round ball, SR4756... looking for wisdom

[DxF]

I just found a rifled slug barrel for the Win 1300, and I have a can of 4756 which is currently serving no purpose; I also have a bunch of 20:1 round balls left over from an old black powder project. They mike .680" and balance the beam at 461 gr.

Man, seems I'm almost there! When wrapped in a WAA12SL wad the ball slips into the muzzle with firm thumb pressure alone, and the rifling engraves the petals. (The barrel slugs out to .723/.730 land/groove.)

I have AA compressions, Gun Clubs and a few Federal Wal-Mart specials avaliable. Oh, and Winchester 209's.

I'd appreciate any help putting all this together!

(Also posted over at shotgunworld.com)

[longbow]

Not sure if I can help with the ball/shotcup and rifled barrel but IMR4756 is a good choice for powder. Personally I prefer Blue Dot but a friend and knowledgeable slug shooter recommended IMR4756 as preferred to Blue Dot.

My last few slug shooting sessions have been with IMR4756 and 0.678" RB's in smoothbore. They worked fine but the 4756 seemed to be a bit stouter load though the book says they should be equivalent velocity. That is of course using correct charge and components for IMR4756. I will do some more loading and testing with IMR4756 but since it is now out of production or will be soon I won't likely be getting anymore anyway.

I would have to look up the charge but my components are ~ Fiocchi 2 3/4" hulls (low basewad), Winchester 209 primers and Winchester wads.

You will most likely need a slightly lower charge in the Winchester AA hulls as they are tapered and smaller volume than the Fiocchi's.

In case you ar not aware, you cannot just go randomly substituting components when loading for shotgun. Hulls and primers in particular can raise or lower pressures dramatically when everything else is the same.

If you do not have a loading manual you should get one... or preferably several. There is a fair bit of load data available from the powder manufacturers but most is for bird shot loads. No you can use an equal weight of slug to shot and be safe so any 1 1/16 to 1 1/8 oz. birdshot load will be safe with those round balls. If you want high performance slug loads though you need to use pressure tested load data.

What wads do you have, just the Win AA12SL's? Or is it just hulls and primers you have currently? Which hulls do you have the most of or which do you want to use for slugs? I suggest the Win AA's especially if you have Winchester wads.

You will also want to get some 16 or 20 ga. 0.125" nitro card wads. I find much better performance if I put a nitro card wad or two under the ball to keep the wad from extruding around the ball. You need that extra support under the ball.

Let me see what I have for load data for IMR4756 in Win AA hulls with Win 209 primers. I will let you know in a day or so.

Longbow

[DxF]

Thanks Longbow. I'm not wedded to using AA hulls, I just have a bunch available not being used for anything else. I was a little concerned that there'd be a bulge at the ball's midpoint that would impede loading, but that doesn't seem to be the case (it is with the Gun Clubs- a dummy shell, with ball, won't just drop freely into the chamber). If I have any trouble with this I will dumpster-dive at the club; there are plenty of straight-walled hulls there (Estates & Rios mostly). Since re-use isn't an issue, that is still an option.

I am well aware of the ubiquitous warnings about random substitution of components; that's why I'm here! :-) I have all the components I mentioned in hand. I also have a ton of Federal 12S0 wads but the petals are of thicker plastic and the Winchesters load easier.

I will take your advice and scrounge some nitro cards. As to powder, the 4576 is just sitting on a shelf; if you have safe data with another powder I'm all ears. I would prefer a slow, single base powder as I understand the double base powders can be real touchy- tiny overcharges producing skyrocketing pressures. I will gladly sacrifice fps for lower pressures. Not looking to hit the moon- the woods hereabouts are pretty close, and 1100 fps will do just fine.

[longbow]

Let me see what I can find. As I mentioned, I use mostly Blue Dot but I am about out and I have a couple of pounds of IMR4756 so thought I would give that a go.

I have been absent from slug shooting for some time now due to time constraints but am hoping to get back to it shortly.

I should have my recipe written down "somewhere" but mostly I use published load data from one of many manuals and reloading info I have collected. Some loads I use from trusted sources but even then I cross reference to make sure I get a warm fuzzy feeling.


Anyway, we have had a large dump of snow so I have to go shovel off the roof of the trailer and dig out the boat so nothing collapses. I may be a bit tied up tonight.

I know I have a lot of recipes for Win AA hulls so that shouldn't be a problem. While they are better suited to trap and skeet use, there is a lot of load data available for buckshot and slugs... more even than for the Fiocchi's I bought specifically for that purpose. Go figure!

The straight walled hulls are better for high performance buckshot and slug loads though but if you are just looking for 1100 FPS there are about a zillion or maybe a zillion and a half recipes for birdshot that you can sub a 460 gr. slug for.

As for fit, I like a light push through fit for smoothbore but you may need more bite for rifled gun so don't discount those Federal wads just yet. You can also adjust fit by using paper wraps inside the shotcup but that is a bit tedious if you are shooting a lot. For find tuning target or hunting loads though it may help. just a thought.

I have to go eat dinner then get dressed for battle with the snow. I will try to get time to look for load recipes later tonight of tomorrow.

Longbow

[Treeman]

DxF, Longbow is probably going to be one of the best sources of info for you. FWIW, If 1100fps is really what you are after 4756 is probably NOT a good powder choice. 17 grains of Red Dot or similar charges of other "fast powders should put you right there. 4756 is one of the 'slow" shotgun powders that works great for heavier payloads or provides maximum velocities with lighter payloads using heavy charges. Let me be clear-I have never used 4756 in shotshells. My data sources suggest that you will probably need charges over 30 grains just to get it up into the operating pressure range and will probably max out at about 37 grains behind you ball for around 1500 fps. Even the lightest working charges are probably going to be faster than your 1100fps target. Most of the published slug data out there assumes a desire for max velocity. (which uses huge charges of slow powder). BPI has data using faster powders at max charges which are only moderately slower. The nice thing about the "target load" powders is they have lots of under max pressure and velocity data available in the form of light target loads(shot). The fast powders are much less blooper prone when reduced and less affected by cold temps.

[longbow]

Okay, not sure I will be a lot of help here with your wants of 1100 FPS velocity and IMR4756.

I took a look through my reloading manuals and find that IMR4756 does not come into play in shot loads until the payload is 1 1/4 oz. It is a common slug powder but as Treeman noted, it is used for slug loads from about 1350 to 1600 FPS so high performance territory.

If you want to use up the 4756 under your round balls then you will be feeling some recoil! For instance this load is from Hammerhead slugs:

- 1 1/8 oz. Hammer Head Slug
- 2 ¾” Reduced Recoil: 34 gr IMR 4756 = 1,300 fps

or for Green Dot:

- 2 ¾” Reduced Recoil: 17 gr Green Dot = 1,050 fps

No primer or hull is specified except that "All hulls should be straight walled" so a little vague. Your Federal hulls would be fine for this.

If on the other hand you just want the lower velocity loads for round ball you are likely better off to go with a 1 1/8 oz. birdshot load using appropriate powder and components but substituting the round ball for the shot and possibly the wad to get correct fit and crimp height... along with a nitro card wad or two under the ball. I also add a scoop of COW on top of the nitro card wad(s) to make a nice seat for the ball ~ it seems to help accuracy for me.

For example, from Reloading For Shotgunners:

Load #1
- Shot weight: 1 1/8 oz.
- Hull: Win AA
- Primer: Win 209
- Powder: Green Dot
- Wad: Win WAA12SL
- vel: 18 grs. = 1090 FPS; 20.5 grs. = 1200 FPS
- Pressure: 10,700 PSI for 20.5 grs.

Load #2
- Shot weight: 1 1/8 oz.
- Hull: Win AA
- Primer: Win 209
- Powder: Unique
- Wad: Win WAA12SL
- vel: 22.5 grs. = 1200 FPS; 24 grs. = 1250 FPS
- Pressure: 9900 PSI for 24 grs.

Load #3
- Shot weight: 1 1/8 oz.
- Hull: Win AA
- Primer: Win 209
- Powder: Red Dot
- Wad: Win WAA12SL
- vel: 16 grs. = 1090 FPS
- Pressure: 9300 PSI

While I do not particularly like the tapered hull design of the Win AA's I have to say that those I had took a lot of reloading before they gave up and split at the crimps. If you got 'em might as well use 'em.

If you have Unique, that would be a good all around powder as it can also be used for pretty hefty slug loads as well as birdshot or light slug loads.

If you want some heavy duty slug loads for IMR4756 I can give you some as well.

Longbow

And I should have noted that all loads above are for 2 3/4" hulls.

[DxF]

Thank you Longbow! I do have half a pound of Unique which I've been using mostly for .38 spl but that will change today! You've been most helpful and I thank you. All I need now is some 20 ga. nitros. The breakfast cereal is a good idea. Can't think of a better use for that stuff. :-)

EDIT: OK, the nitro card proved too much. Leaving that out, Load #2 above consisted of:

AA hull (red, "heavy") 2 3/4"
W209
22.5 gr. Unique
CB1100-12 wad (WAA12SL clone) with petals trimmed back 1/8"
461 gr. .680" ball (Lyman .678 mould, 20:1 alloy) over 7 gr. COW (Lee .7 cc scoop)
8-fold crimp
total weight of payload column 501.5 gr.

The crimp puffed up some after a few mins, but not enough to bother with, and seems to have stabilized now. Next time I'll cut back on the COW. Or add some hot milk, maybe.

I won't get a chance to shoot for another 2-3 weeks. The gun is off getting drilled & tapped for scope,

[longbow]

If you want "hot" loads for Unique I have lots of those in the 1400 to almost 1600 FPS range but you could burn up that 4756 for high velocity loads like that.

The COW will help but without a nitro card wad the plastic shotcup base may try to extrude around the ball. Recovered wads will tell you. If the bottom of the shotcup is in good shape it should be okay but if it is dished or cracked then best to make room for the nitro card wad. I always look for wads after I shoot.

What other powders do you have on hand?

Longbow

[DxF]

I think I need a wad with a deeper shot cup & shorter collapsible part. With the 12SL's there's no room for the nitro card (.125") even without the cereal.

For powders, I also have some 2400, LilGun, TiteGroup & HS-7. And a really old can of 800-X. And black, of course. :-)