HP for hunting?

[44 mag nut]

Looking at a new mold for my 45-70s and 450M. One is a 405 gr HP and one is not HP. I'm using COWW water dropped. Any pros or cons with HP for hunting?

[Chihuahua Floyd]

As far as the 45-70 goes, the "death by flying fence post" approach means slow moving, heavy, large diameter bullets. I believe a hollow point would be meaningless.
The only caliber I still use a HP bullet is with full power 357 mag loads. In the 44 Mag I use SWC or FP bullets.
CF

[reloader28]

It seems to me that if you want a HP that means you want big expansion.
If your water dropping COWW, you completely waisting your time. It aint going to expand at all.

If you want expansion, soften the boolits. Use 50/50 lead/WW and add 1-2% tin. You can water drop this for 13-14 BHN.
I'm using air cooled 50/50 alloy and solids in my 45-70, but aint had a chance to test the expansion yet.

[waksupi]

Not necessary for any hunting with a bullet properly shaped to start with.

[44 mag nut]

Seams like more are trying HP boolits for hunting then I can remember. I will order a none HP mold then.

[SSGOldfart]

Seams like more are trying HP boolits for hunting then I can remember. I will order a none HP mold then.
Wise choice Sir,the 45-70don't need a HP heavyweight slow movers good luck

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

44 mag nut,

If you haven't yet ordered that H.P. mold, then rethink it!

It took many years to perfect reliable expansion with jacketed bullets and that is still changing with new improvements.

Expansion with a cast bullet is greatly dependent on two things, the alloy and the velocity.

So lets say you have perfected reliable cast bullet expansion at 100yds with an impact velocity of 1470fps at the target. Great, but what happens if the critter suddenly appears at 30 yds. Well now you have a situation where the bullet will likely over expand due to the much higher velocity which in turn causes excessive meat loss.

Or what if we flip the coin and now the critter is at 220yds where the velocity is greatly reduced and the bullet gives little to no expansion. If your relying on that expansion, you may have a bad situation on your hands.

There is much information on the forum, this and Beartooth and Marlin Owners about the effectiveness of the Wide Flat Nose cast bullet.

And having now hunted with that bullet for a number of years and have accounted for a nice pile of deer and a couple of elk, I have found the WFN cast bullet to be every bit as effective as everyone says, and that is true in spades.

The only further comment I'll throw in would be to stay away from warp velocities. The reason is, the WFN is so effective that high velocities will bring about greatly excessive wound channels and meat loss.

My first Cast bullet critter was taken with a 355gr WFN at a muzzle velocity of just over 2300fps and I never want to see that size of a wound channel again. The tissue and bone was not mush as would be typical with a jacketed bullet, it was simply GONE!

Much better to a very large degree is my current bullet, a 465gr WFN at 1650fps. Very deadly, GREAT penetration, and a reasonable wound channel.

With the large meplat of the WFN cast bullets you do not need expansion in a 45/70 and a bullet of over 400gr at 1400 - 1700fps will simply get er done!

I know the above may be hard for a long term expanding "J" bullet hunter to believe, but it is proven fact. Believe it!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[pls1911]

Big ol' flat meplat = Critter killin' SPLAT!!
Don't need no stinking hollow points...
Don't over think it.

[44 mag nut]

It seems like most in my area arewanting HP to hunt with. I will be getting a WFN once they are instock.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

44 mag nut,

Contact Tom at Accurate Molds. He makes a very find product.

I'd have to say after my experience with the WFN cast, that people who what the H.P. are one of two things. Those that just have to experiment, or those who can't/won't believe the tremendous effectiveness of the WFN.

I know I needed to make the step with a bit of faith in the use of the WFN cast, but I had a bit of advantage in having cast those bullets for my 44 mag hand guns after reading the Lead Bullet Technology (LBT) information on that bullet profile.

After many years with Jacketed expanding bullets it develops a false mind set that expansion is a must. Not so! At least not with the WFN bullet profile in the 45/70.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[dave roelle]

Soft lead, hollow pointed bullets reduced the travel distance in two bucks i collected with them this year, typical travel with flat nosed 375's and 45's during the 2013 season was about 100 yards-------this year the same slugs same rifles with the bullets hollow pointed, travel after bullet strike 35 to 50 yards--------------DRT would be even better !!!!!

Hunting the texas brush i feel better anchoring critters as quickly as i can !!!!

Too much damage, not when the bullet is properly placed and if i can't put em in the right spot i don't pull the trigger.

It puzzles me the general negative opinion of hollow points

Keep on havin fun

Dave

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well Dave, I've only had one deer that left the point of impact, and that was one this past fall where the shot hit a touch too far back, missing the lungs.

As far as damage from a miss placed shot, where hunting is what hunting is and we have no control over the critters movements from the time the brains says to pull the trigger until the bullet impacts.

Couple years back I had a clean side to side behind the shoulders shot on a big cow elk. But when it came time to dress/skin the critter, there was a hole in the near shoulder.

Clearly something happened in that short instant and during the 100yd travel the bullet made.

None of us can control such things in spite of the best intentions.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[dave roelle]

Point taken Sir and true in isolated instances---------------still its a mystery about this negative attitude toward hollow pointed bullets---puzzling to this novice


Dave

[Larry Gibson]

I prefer to hunt with HP'd cast bullets in handgun and rifle. When of proper HP design and alloy they do offer reliable expansion and all the penetration needed. Over the years I've not noticed much more meat damage either as the real damage is done inside the heart/lungs. I use a HP'd Lyman 458483 in my 45-70s for hunting.

Dead is dead and the 458483 certainly kills well w/o the HP. As with most HP'd cast bullets I use they kill quicker which is the reason I use them. Perhaps with the bigger bullets not so much quicker over the softer 16-1 alloy I use for them as when not HP'd but enough that I use the HP'd bullets anyway. Shoot enough critters, even with the big bullets and you'll find "DRT" doesn't always happen. In some conditions the farther the animal can travel the greater the odds it will be lost or fall to another hunter. Additionally I prefer to simply kill the animal as quickly as possible, just my choice an not a moral judgment on anyone else.

Larry Gibson

[dave roelle]

My Thoughts exactly Mr Gibson----------------i get acceptable hunting accurace and believe that i've done as much as i can to put the ctriier down quickly.

Testing will continue to optimize hollow point performance---------i hope to get time to build a bullet "catcher" and recover some bullets to better understand whats happening---------i haven't recovered a 375 or 45 caliber yet :(

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/IMG_4469.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/IMG_4469.jpg.html)

This was from last week----0.200 diameter HP 0.30 Deep in a flat nose PP bullet-----------he went about 35 yards

Wild hog tests show even better results --DRT possibly because the pigs seem more "dense" than the Whitetails

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0804.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0804.jpg.html)

Good hunting

Dave

[square butte]

Larry - Could you offer a comment or two regarding your thoughts on the cup point HP pins being offered with some NOE and Miha molds. Wile I don't have any practical experience with these yet - I believe I am a fan. They seem to offer an in between option - providing a bit more expansion than a FN - but not quite as much as an HP - Given an adequate alloy of 50/50 or softer.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

I'd say that my reason for avoiding the H.P. and going with the Wide Flat Nose is, consistency.

The same reason my preferred "J" bullet is something along the lines of the Nosler Partition.

With cast bullet expansion being so greatly dependent on the alloy and impact velocity and since I can mostly only control the alloy, that being because I can not always predict the distance and therefore, impact velocity for my game, I will continue to stay with the tried and true performance of the WFN.

Both of my deer were taken at under 100yds this past Fall, but from the tree stand I was occupying the range could just as easy been 250 - 300yds. My Leupold CDS scope maxes out at 275yds.

Had my bullet been a H.P. tested and developed for expansion at the greater distance and therefore much lower velocity, the results (meat loss) would have been less then desirable at 75yds.

Thankfully I do not need to deal with the hunters behind every bush situation that some folk face, so should a critter go a few yards before dropping, of the deer taken with the WFN and 45/70 only one has, so be it.

So, clearly there are different perspectives held by the posters here. That is partly what makes the hunting and the exchange of information here on the forums so interesting.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[dave roelle]

I agree Coot--------the differences are what make things interesting------seems our discussions have at least given the OP both perspectives----------in truth both work very very well----

have fun with the 45/70 44Mag nut---its a wonderful old round----easy to load, lots of variety from true "magnum" levels of performance and back to the 1870's with fun black powder loading

Keep well and stay safe

Dave

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well said Dave!

CDOC

[44 mag nut]

Okay, let me ask this. If I cast HPboolits like I do my normal casting it should still work the same asa WFN. Now you have the heavier part of the boolit in the rear, will it drive deeper into the game?

[Lonegun1894]

It depends. If it is slow enough, as in far enough away to slow down, to not expand, I would expect it to act as a FN would. However, expansion will decrease penetration. How much penetration you will lose depends on how much expansion, how violent the expansion, does the bullet stay intact, shed it's nose, completely fragment, etc. You get the idea. This is like using the same bullet, say a jacketed 150gr spritzer soft point in a .300 BO subsonic load, a full power .30-06 load, and a full power .300 Win Mag. Hit a deer with this bullet at 1K fps out of the BO, and you can expect it to act like a FMJ and pencil clean through and exit. Same shot placement in the .30-06, and you get proper expansion, some meat loss but probably not a whole lot with proper placement, and a clean pass through. Now do the same thing with the .300 WM and this bullet may very well act like a varmint bullet, with extreme meat loss, and probably not complete penetration. In fact, you may not get enough penetration to get to the vitals if the bullet expands too violently and disintegrates before it can do it's intended job.

I have taken a couple hogs with a Lyman 457122HP (335grs) and gotten good performance, but before that, I used a Lee 405gr FN, a Lee 450gr FN, and a RCBS 405gr FNGC, and all of them worked very well also on both deer and hogs. For what it's worth, in regards to the Lyman 457122HP at least, I did a lot of reading before purchasing that mold and a lot of things said that impact velocities below 1200 fps tend to get little to no expansion, while impact velocities over 1600fps start making the bullet act like a varmint bullet, with the violent expansion and meat loss that comes with that. I can't remember the source off the top of my head, but I remember reading something that said that once you get this bullet moving up around 1750+ fps, the bullet starts shattering and things get really bad if you intend to eat what you just shot. I launch this bullet at about 1400 fps out of my H&R BC so am right in the middle of that velocity range, and so far, both hogs showed good performance, with decent expansion (based on the wound cavity as both bullets exited and were not recovered), and almost no meat loss. Now the FN bullets gave no meat loss at all, and the animals traveled 20-30 yds farther than with the HPs, but I still use both. I have gotten to the point that I use the 330gr Lyman 457122HP in my H&R BC, and the RCBS 405gr FNGC in my Marlin 1895. So I guess in a way, it is more to differentiate which load is for which rifle than for any perceived advantage of one bullet on game over the other.

So it depends on alloy hardness and composition, impact velocity, target density/hydration, etc. For what it's worth, I tend to "bowhunt" regardless of what weapon I am using. I get more of a thrill and more satisfaction out of seeing how close I can get to my game, and try to take everything inside 50 yds, and prefer 25yds or less if possible. So I have slowly been moving toward slower velocities to make sure I get the job done, while at the same time making sure I don't blow up a bullet on impact and ruin good meat. My loads aren't what I'd want in my younger days of trying to see how far I can reach, but I also wouldn't want the loads from back then for the way I hunt today.

[dave roelle]

Well said lonegun---------a very accurate explaination

44Mag------if in doubt and for a little extra get the hollow point mold with an extra "flat nosed" core pin ---you have the option and can taylor you bullets to the application

The NOE hollow pointing system is really nice and for hunting bullets 2 cavities are plenty

Alternatively get the flat point mold knowing that will a little care the hollow point can be machined into the few bullets require for hunting situations.

Have a great day

Dave

[44 mag nut]

I do have on my wish list the 460 405RF 4 GC. So when NOE and company gets to it I'll start working on aload for the 450 with it.


Thank you for all the info on HPboolits and hunting. I can see both points of both sides. In timeI'll see about HPing some of these and try a few milk jug test justfor kicks.

Thank you for all of your help!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

44 mag nut,

Expansion will decrease penetration, as will higher velocity.

The decrease in penetration with higher velocity as been well proven, and the info is available on such web sites as Beartooth Bullets and I believe the writings of Randy Garrett.

Stay well below the 2000fps mark.

If as likely could happen, your H.P. sheds part of it's nose, that will decrease the total bullet weight and that alone will decrease the level of energy retained, and this does not account for the added resistance of the expanded bullet.

Don't try to complicate this situation, just choose a bullet of over 400gr, fired at 1400 - 1700fps and make it a WFN profile. It Will Get er Done!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[waksupi]

44 mag nut,


If as likely could happen, your H.P. sheds part of it's nose, that will decrease the total bullet weight and that alone will decrease the level of energy retained, and this does not account for the added resistance of the expanded bullet.

Don't try to complicate this situation, just choose a bullet of over 400gr, fired at 1400 - 1700fps and make it a WFN profile. It Will Get er Done!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

And that is all you need to know about hollow points.

[44 mag nut]

Thank you for the learning curve everyone!

[phaessler]

And that is all you need to know about hollow points.

Sums it up....

[TXGunNut]

Been hunting exclusively with WFN boolits since I started casting a few years ago and quite honestly can't ask for any better performance than I've seen on the critters I've shot. No recovered boolits but some good hints at expansion when studying exit wounds. I hunt deer and hogs and a WFN rifle boolit of 35 to 45 caliber seems to be almost perfect for the job at hand, what more could I want?
That said I've been reading Larry Gibson's posts on the subject and I believe he has some good points, no pun intended. Only problem I have is that apparently the alloy must be matched to the boolit design and the velocity and that's a bit more testing than I'm willing or able to do at this point. I've signed on for a NOE GB on a HP mould for my 45 Colt handguns so I'll get around to testing what I've learned from Larry's posts someday.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

You've got it TexGunNut ----------------

As I have said many times here and other places, cast bullet expansion, talking reliable/predictable expansion here, is dependent on alloy and velocity at impact.

The H.P. might be fun for some to experiment with, but give me solid reliability and predictability of a properly cast WFN bullet.

But then, I am one who wants ONE HUNTING LOAD for ONE RIFLE, developing that one load with the intention of optimizing that rifle for all hunting in which it may be employed.

For those that wish to experiment, have at it, but I'll take the tried and true and save the effort.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[gtgeorge]

I personally am fond of the HP but I am only working on my second year with them so not enough yet to proclaim it to being best for me but so far it is. Meat damage is more when a bad placed shot occurs but for that meat was recovered instead of lost or hard to find.

I am using them with pistol and rifle and from 900fps to 2100fps ranges in velocity. I have shot short range and long range (well sorta with 150 being considered long) and have recovered a couple animals I am sure would not have come home with anything less. Especially a deer my son shot this year at over 100 yards that was a low shot barely grazing the chest and breaking through both legs above the knee. Not every shot can be perfect so I prefer the additional damage the HP does and so far has great penetration too.

Pistols get 2-2-96 alloy while rifle is 3-3-94. Always find a couple pieces of lead so the noses do come apart but who cares if they come out the other side. Comparing the reactions of water jugs shot with both leaves little doubt about the shock the HP delivers compared to just a WFN. Time will tell but so far I am hooked.

[6pt-sika]

First deer I ever killed with a 45-70 was done with a Marlin 1895CB shooting the Lyman Gould 330 gr HP PB bullet pushed with XMP5744 . Deer came up to exactly 21 yards of the tree I was perched in . At the boom of the rifle the deer hit the ground as if the carpet had been jerked from beneath him . When I got down and looked at him he had a single entrance wound and two exit wounds . The bullet broke in half or either knocked a chunk of bone out a different exit hole .

In that singular case I would say it worked great !

Later with a Marlin New Model 1895 circa 1978 I popped the largest racked Whitetail I've ever killed in my life . He was approx. 45-55 yards from me at the shot . I shot him with the Ranch Dog 460-350GC again pushed with XMP5744 and he ran perhaps 40 yards after the shot and was dead when he hit the ground .

Results for both were good in my estimation .

In the 444 I have a great deal more experience with hollow points and my results have been mixed , while no deer I shot at with HP's ever evaded me two did require finishers to be as humane as possible .

I can't say I'm an advocate of HP cast bullets but I do play with them from time to time on paper . And anytime I get a mold I will eventually kill a deer with said bullet although most of the time my shots will not excede 60 or so yards .

I just got a slightly used NOE/RD 432-265GC HP mold I plan on trying this coming Damage Control Season .

[leftiye]

While I do believe that flat points will do the job, most large bore heavy boolits have sufficient penetration that (1) some is not needed and is wasted, and (2) some could therefore be utilized toward expansion. The argument isn't that expansion is needed, but that it is an improvement that can be had without sacrifice. I will set a condition here that boolit fragmentation be avoided at all costs. A WFN that has an annealed nose that expands can only be considered extra cream on your oatmeal. Likewise if a hollow point that is configured to creating a moderate mushroom (small/medium nose cavity) mushrooms , cool, if it doesn't , oh well - nothing is lost. I think that all of the noise about reliability may well be irrelevant. Most hollow points start out as flat points with adequate meplats in the first instance.

[GooseGestapo]

I've used hollow point and non-hollow point with the .45/70. I say it doesn't matter with the .45cal.
However, with the .30, .33, and .35cal I've seen significant improvement on wound characteristics with hollow points.

like the old sayin'; a 9mm "might" expand, but a .45 never shrinks...
The only place I see the .45/70 benefiting from a hollow point is with higher velocity loads (1,700fps+) from a 300-330gr bullet. Even then It'll need to be a LARGE, DEEP hollow point such as the Gould mold of the late 1800's and early 1900's.

I don't see the extra cost and trouble of a hollow point benefiting the .45's. Just a big flat nose does the job!!!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

GooseGestapo,

From my experience, I'd say that a bullet in the 300 - 330gr range being an advantage at higher "(1700fps+)" velocities would, again from my experience be anything but an advantage.

That is unless a person was trying to thin out the fuzzy little ground vermin. Pink Mist time!

I never want to repeat the results of a 355gr Wide Flat Nose at a 2300fps muzzle velocity seen on a deer. HUGE!!!!!!!!! Wound channel.

The WFN, being highly effective just made a devastatingly large wound channel.

AS per full critter penetration being a situation of wasted energy, well give me that second hole, and hunting being what hunting is, and considering I use my 45/70 on critters from deer to anything I might hold a tag for - elk/moose/bear etc. If I were to develop a load for expansion and retention of the bullet in a deer, it will very likely fall way short when put up against the larger critter.

Whatever floats a person's boat, that is what make us so interesting, but plain and simple a WFN cast bullet works, well and predictably. 465gr WFN at 1650fps is awesome!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[TXGunNut]

like the old sayin'; a 9mm "might" expand, but a .45 never shrinks...GooseGestapo

Haven't heard that but I'm fond of saying that if I want big holes I use a big boolit.

[44 mag nut]

I'll look at getting a HP mold in a month or two and do some milk jugs testing with them set at 50 and 100 yards. Testing both HP and non HP molds would be fun to try.

[leftiye]

So who do you blame when you use too much gun for the game being hunted? After the first case of blowing up a deer as if it were a rabbit, if you don't go to another boolit, or caliber (sounds better to me) maybe you should apply for the Darwin award? The fact that a hollow point can make that kind of wound may not be a blanket condemnation of hollow points, but a scenario where you question the use of a 155 howitzer on the particular game. Certainly, back off don't use the hollow point, but maybe wonder a bit about the three deer you kill with over penetration? You've got the perspective wrong. It ain't the boolit it's the reloader.

[dave roelle]

Hey 44magnut-----------------have fun with the new mold !!!!!!!!

shoot what you like !!!!!!!!!! but above all have fun with it :)


kinda thought this thread would meet with some controversy --------------- kinda funny how we try to sell our opinions isn't it

Milk jugs are a hoot :)

onward thru the fog

Dave