Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[Hickok]

Just something that befuddles me at times, and I would like some other opinions.

This pertains strictly to iron sight revolvers, no scopes or other optics.

What I am talking about is when I read something that goes something like this; (you can add own brand, caliber, boolit, etc)

Example; "Today I shot my S&W .44 mag with a 4 inch barrel, using a 325 gr cast boolit loaded to 1350 fps. Off the bench @ 25 yds. groups were only so-so, running 1 1/2" to 2" for 6 shots. I fired 5 groups of 6 shots each, and that is the best the S&W would do!"

Now my thoughts;

Maybe I am not a very good shot with a handgun after all these years,

Maybe my casting produces boolits of inferior quality,

Maybe my bench shooting technique is faulty,

Maybe I am using the wrong powders, or the wrong powder charges with the powders I use,

Maybe my S&W's, Ruger BH's and SBH's are worn out/shot out,

BUT, I think I am shooting great, the load is performing well, and the handgun is accurate when I can keep'em all in a 1 1/2 to 2 inch group off the bench @ 25 yards.

Maybe my expectations are low.

What are your gentlemen's thought and opinions.

[rintinglen]

Some of the best shooting I ever heard of was done with a key board. I like it even better when it was off-hand when the shooting was alleged to have been done.
Now let's be clear on one thing: there are plenty of guns that will do 4-5 minutes. Clamped in a Ransom rest that is properly set up on a solid bench, loaded with GOOD ammo, after a cylinder or two to seat the gun in the insert, a revolver of quality manufacture can astound. I have seen numerous groups fired that were well under 2 inches and even a few that were under 1 inch. The first FA 454 I ever saw was such a gun. It would put round after round in the same hole.
However, it takes a heap of practice to approach that level of skill with an iron sighted revolver. And good vision is a must. It also helps to be on the near side of 30, not the far side of 60. However, there are apparently many such persons around. I read their postings on various sites all the time.

[Scharfschuetze]

Some of the best shooting I ever heard of was done with a key board.

Ha, ha! Yes, well said.


I think I am shooting great, the load is performing well, and the handgun is accurate when I can keep'em all in a 1 1/2 to 2 inch group off the bench @ 25 yards.

You're getting better results than most, thinks I. Unless I'm shooting a built up match pistol, I'm very happy with 2" at 25 yards and to be honest, only a few of my handguns will do that consistently.

[jmort]

I am right there with you Hickok, or even less so. I really don't shoot off a bench, so I look for a cluster, not a group. There are some amazing shooters out there. I am often left feeling inadequate.

[1Shirt]

If I could shoot revolvers at 25 as you report, I would be very satisfied.
1Shirt!

[Outpost75]

A dispersion of about "1 inch per ten" (yards) of range has been the expectation for a service pistol or revolver since blackpowder days. An accurized M1911 pistol or custom made PPC target revolver firing off a Ransom Rest with good wadcutter match ammunition can do about half of that, or about 2-1/2" at fifty yards for ten-shot groups.

Any stock factory handgun firing factory ammunition which will average 2 inches or better for a series of 5- or 6-shot groups at 25 yards, firing hand held, with iron sights, off sandbags, is quite good and speaks well for the ammunition and the shooter. The target below was fired with my .45 Colt New Service M1909 with Saeco #954 bullets, as-cast and unsized at .456", loaded with 6.5 grains of Bullseye for 880 fps. Not bad for 66-year-old eyes at 100 yards. The same load shoots about 2" to 2-1/2" for six shots at 25 yards, and is about the best which this old duffer can manage.

126075126081

[MarkP]

Similar results from my S&W's & Ruger SBH, BH, RH. I have read where others can routinely shoot iron sighted revolvers as well as respectable bench rest rifles shoot on a calm day. I have a custom 7-1/2 lb XP-100 that I have won a few matches with that will not shoot as well as some revolver claims.

Like gas mileage; tend to quote the best tank ever as a typical average.

[45 2.1]

Ahhh.... This is one of those threads where nobody can do any better than the most normal guy out there. Actually, the results follow the standard bell shaped distribution curve. Some revolvers do better than others... much, much better.... and some do worse. That depends a lot on just what you put in them, but that is up to the shooter. A good seasoned shooter can place his shots in the end of a Coke can at 50 yards... some of these guys do the inner part of it. All it takes is practice... lots of it .... to the tune of at least 50,000 rounds by the time you get there. If you can't do it, then practice some more.

[sundog]

Prexactly! One and a half to two inches. Which was it? 1 1/2 or 2? If it was 2 then it is 2, not 1 1/2 to 2, unless it was some kind of a ring with nothing inside 1 1/2. It's only as good as the largest group. It's not something that it isn't.

[Hickok]

Man do I feel better. Like JMortimer stated, I was beginning to feel inadequate!

I don't mean to give the impression that I shoot sub 2 inch groups all the time at 25 yds, but I strive hard for a good load/ handgun combination that will consistently hold 2 inches off the bags at 25 yds, and when it happens I am very happy with myself, the gun and load, but NO it doesn't always happen, some days are better than others. But after several sessions, I get a pretty good idea that the load is "good to go."

Then all my shooting with that combination is off-hand, and practicing varying field positions for hunting etc.

You guys have helped restore my confidence!

[Artful]

There is a lot to shooting small groups - hitting small targets and at range.

Accuracy of the handgun itself - test with Ransom Rest or the like, it can surprise you.
Accuracy of yourself - put a scope or laser on a handgun and dry fire - that will tell you a lot about you.

That said I used to shoot handgun sillywet (was well as bullseye, ppc, USPSA, and three gun) and
will tell you that if you shoot 50-65K per year you will shoot better - it take that much practice to get up to top of state rankings.
but if you only shoot 100 a day with concentration - even dry fire - you will improve.
Most of us recreational shooters maybe get out once a quarter - once a month if lucky.

Now having said this, I know a handgun can hit a 4x5 inch target at 150 meters and
at 200 meters a 10x12 inch target - 9 out of 10 times.

Again it's a team of the gun/load and the shooter.
One suggestion look of a quality air pistol for indoor practice this winter.

[NSB]

A consistent 2" five shot group at 25yds is good shooting. It's not great shooting, but good shooting. I'd say that if you can do that on a regular basis you're in the top ten percent of the handgun shooting public. That being said, I've seen shooters that can keep them in 1" on a consistent basis at that distance and a few that can do even better. As stated, it takes a LOT of shooting, a LOT. The very top long distance, highly accurate shooters, using revolvers or automatics shoot 30-50,000 rounds a year to achieve that status. I have had two custom built revolvers that would regularly shoot a ragged hole at 25yds off a bench and I mean on a regular basis. Bill Davis used to make revolvers that the owners called "one holers". Sadly, I sold them both off when I got out of match shooting. I doubt the present owners have a clue about what they are capable of.

[ejcrist]

My goal for a given load and revolver combination is =< 2" off a rest at 25 yards. That doesn't mean I always get there but that's the goal. I have a few revolvers that'll shoot < 2" but most hover a little above 2" no matter what I do to make them better. Like you, after I get the load down pat and everything tuned properly, which could drag out for quite a while, I sight in at 50 yards and practice off-hand shooting steel silhouettes or targets at hunting ranges. But yeah, I've read an awful lot of keyboard shooters sub 1" groups and thought I must be a truly bad shooter if that's the case. Glad to see it isn't.

[Airman Basic]

I'm kinda happy with minute of tin can at 25 yards, and an occasional miss. 50 yards, an occasional hit. 100 yards, cause for celebration, especially with witnesses.

[Hickok]

Yep, 50 yards is my zero range with handgun iron sights after the load work-up done.

[fecmech]

IMO you have to have very good visual acuity to shoot 1" 25 yd iron sighted groups if the gun and load are capable AND good bench technique. As a previous poster mentioned a scope or dot sight are a great help in load development and showing up your faults. I still have two guns (a 1911 wad gun and K38) that I had years ago with a Ransom rest. The rest is gone but I can still match the Ransom groups(benched)@ 50 yds with the dot sights on both guns. I never could do that with irons even as a young man with 20/15 vision.

[44man]

Back in the days of eyesight a 1/2" group at 50 yards was standard from a .44 with opens. Not off hand but Creedmore. Best I ever shot was 2-1/2" at 500 yards with a red dot. Then 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 yards, first shot a sighter my friend spotted. I gave the BFR .475 to him, told him where to aim and he hit 3X. Drove many rifle shooters from the range as we shot their target after asking. Some came to see what the hell we were shooting.
Yes, a revolver can do it. My favorite gun ever.
The S&W 29 can do 1/2" at 50 as can a Ruger SBH Hunter. No Bisley though. I have a shotgun shell on my bench that I shot at 100 yards with my .500 JRH. I also shot 5 shotgun shells in the base at 50 yards with it, 3/4" targets. Not the gun most of the time or you, it is coming from your loading bench.
My pictures have gotten me tossed from sites. Called a liar. Tossed from the single action site but lee Martin was here to see me take 1" targets at 100, wanted me back. Not going to happen.
I do not keyboard shoot. Many here are in the know and will actually out shoot me. My younger friends out shoot me now. They use my loads.
It is imagination, sit and hold your head and imagine what goes on in a revolver. Test and test, all written and posted and you will reject so much.

[35remington]

I'll suggest there's pretty much no way an off the shelf Smith or Ruger will do half an inch at fifty on demand.

There. I said it. Always wanted to given some of the claims made. My accurized High Standards won't do it and these have more accuracy potential than revolvers do. Yes, any revolver.

The manufacturers themselves won't even go that far, I'll warrant. Perspective is good. Realistic expectations are good as well.

[NSB]

I'll suggest there's pretty much no way an off the shelf Smith or Ruger will do half an inch at fifty on demand.

There. I said it. Always wanted to given some of the claims made. My accurized High Standards won't do it and these have more accuracy potential than revolvers do. Yes, any revolver.

The manufacturers themselves won't even go that far, I'll warrant. Perspective is good. Realistic expectations are good as well.
You are completely spot on. I have seen the best shooters in the world shoot and I can tell you that .5" on demand is not going to happen with any revolver at fifty yards shooting Creedmore. I read this stuff all the time but it NEVER happens at a shoot. It always happens without documentation and reliable witnesses. I wouldn't say that someone never shot one group that size one time at 50yds, I'd say they can't do it on demand. I shot competition for years and I never saw anyone who could do this on demand. I've seen some incredible feats of marksmanship at different times but not to where the shooter doing it could wager that they could repeat it at will.

[44man]

I'll suggest there's pretty much no way an off the shelf Smith or Ruger will do half an inch at fifty on demand.

There. I said it. Always wanted to given some of the claims made. My accurized High Standards won't do it and these have more accuracy potential than revolvers do. Yes, any revolver.

The manufacturers themselves won't even go that far, I'll warrant. Perspective is good. Realistic expectations are good as well.
Not so, new revolvers out of box have done it. On demand--- NO, we are a weak link. I don't claim that anymore but years ago I could.

[Scharfschuetze]

Realistic expectations are good as well.

I think that this quote says it pretty well.

[MarkP]

You are completely spot on. I have seen the best shooters in the world shoot and I can tell you that .5" on demand is not going to happen with any revolver at fifty yards shooting Creedmore. I read this stuff all the time but it NEVER happens at a shoot. It always happens without documentation and reliable witnesses. I wouldn't say that someone never shot one group that size one time at 50yds, I'd say they can't do it on demand. I shot competition for years and I never saw anyone who could do this on demand. I've seen some incredible feats of marksmanship at different times but not to where the shooter doing it could wager that they could repeat it at will.

Top notch factory jacketed bullets fired in a ballistics lab using accuracy barrels / rail guns in controlled conditions will not do this on demand.

It is possible but certainly not routine or the norm.

That claim has been made at 100 yds with a revolver. Total B$

[Alan in Vermont]

I'll suggest there's pretty much no way an off the shelf Smith or Ruger will do half an inch at fifty on demand.

There. I said it. Always wanted to given some of the claims made. My accurized High Standards won't do it and these have more accuracy potential than revolvers do. Yes, any revolver.

The manufacturers themselves won't even go that far, I'll warrant. Perspective is good. Realistic expectations are good as well.

Yup, if one shoots enough they will get some really uncanny small groups. But virtually constant claims of accuracy generally better than the guns are capable of just seem too good to be true and probably are.

[tazman]

44man is a crusty old fart and has a habit of writing in a style that can be abrasive. He sometimes leaves out steps when he describes something because his mind is working faster than his fingers can type.
That said, I have read and studied much of what he has posted on this site as well as exchanged emails with him upon occasion.
The man has a lot of specialized knowledge about long range revolver shooting and what can make a gun accurate. I have used some it to improve my loads and shooting form.
I will never be a great shooter. My eyes and nerves will no longer let me control things to the extent needed to be a minute of angle shooter, even with optics. However, I can and do use his knowledge and advice to improve to the extent that I can.
His are not the only ideas that will help with things but they are, at the very least, a part of the solution.
His advice on loads for accuracy are very good.
To 44man--- thanks for sharing. I appreciate it.

[jrayborn]

I shoot a lot. Define that however you want. I know what it means to actually shoot 500 yards with open sights on a rifle. I also know what it means to shoot 50 yards with a handgun. With that being said I've certainly never had a 2 inch group at 50 yards and likely never will. I have never seen anyone shoot a 2 inch group with open sights from a revolver. Maybe someday I'll actually see someone do it, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Life is too short for me to worry much about it.

I still have learned a bunch from some fine folks right here.

[427smith]

Hickok and I must not practice enough. I've cast and loaded my own ammo since 72, most I ever fired in 12 months was 11,000 44's. That's a long way from 50,000 a year like some of these guys shoot.

[rintinglen]

Ahhh.... This is one of those threads where nobody can do any better than the most normal guy out there. Actually, the results follow the standard bell shaped distribution curve. Some revolvers do better than others... much, much better.... and some do worse. That depends a lot on just what you put in them, but that is up to the shooter. A good seasoned shooter can place his shots in the end of a Coke can at 50 yards... some of these guys do the inner part of it. All it takes is practice... lots of it .... to the tune of at least 50,000 rounds by the time you get there. If you can't do it, then practice some more.

No, this is thread about reasonable expectations for stock revolvers. Those good seasoned shooters you speak of, Guys like Frank Glenn, John Pride and a few others whose winnings I helped fund, do their shooting with guns that are as near stock as NASCAR is to a Nova. Not to say that they can't shoot extremely well--they'd take my lunch money with a S&W M-10. But It is not reasonable to expect a stock iron sighted revolver to shoot much better than 1 1/2 to 2 inches, regardless of who is pulling the trigger. Some do, Jesus rose from the dead, but that is not the statistical average.

[tazman]

Years ago I had the privilege to watch a man who at the time was one of the top pistol shots in the state. His one handed slow fire with a revolver was easily covered by a fifty cent piece at 25 yards. He could repeat this as often as needed(I saw him do it 5 times over that summer at local shoots).
He said his Smith model 15 was bone stock. He also said he went through 5 of them before he found the one that shot as well as he did.
The moral to this story is some stock revolvers will do it. Some won't. It is unrealistic to expect all of them to do that kind of work without help and/or tuning and loads worked up for that specific gun.

[robertbank]

Well I won't say it can't happen, heck even the American Hockey team wins a Gold Medal every so often but there was a recent post made by a gentleman who claimed he regularly shot 6" groups at 200 yards with his revolver. Good on him but how do you shoot such tight groups with stock iron sights? At 200 yards the front sight on my Ruger GP-100 covers more area than 6"....I think. If I shot 6" groups at 25 yards with any of my handguns I would be over the moon, eyes ,age, nerves, reflexes and skill seems to preclude anything better.

Take Care

Bob
Please don't tell me how to shoot 6" groups at 200 yards. I don't want to be walking out 200 yards to find out if I hit the paper!

[RJM52]

We are the weak link...the guns are more than capable....

1983 25 yards DA Model 57...the out shot was called...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/SMITH-WESSON/Pict0139.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/SMITH-WESSON/Pict0139.jpg.html)



2004 50' DA Model 657 MG...the out shot was the first on a blank target and the aiming point for the rest..

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/SMITH-WESSON/Pict0138.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/SMITH-WESSON/Pict0138.jpg.html)



Yesterday...50 yards with a 657. The first three shots at the top of the paper were the first three round held dead center on the paper of some test ammo. My spotter said they were going high so I held lower as I was just trying to see if the bullets were yawing at all...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Bullet%20Tests/20150101_144652_zps33503787.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Bullet%20Tests/20150101_144652_zps33503787.jpg.html)



http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Single%20Action/20141028_150753_zps819cdc37.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Single%20Action/20141028_150753_zps819cdc37.jpg.html)



http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Single%20Action/DSCF6358.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Single%20Action/DSCF6358.jpg.html)



.475...offhand...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Single%20Action/DSCF4596.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Single%20Action/DSCF4596.jpg.html)


Factory test target at 25 yards...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Single%20Action/DSCF4586.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Single%20Action/DSCF4586.jpg.html)



55 yards sitting...I blew the last shot...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Single%20Action/DSCF6100.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Single%20Action/DSCF6100.jpg.html)

[RJM52]

Freedom Arms 83 .41 Magnum sitting.... .22 holes were a Ruger Single-Six .22 Magnum Hunter

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Single%20Action/SW57060511035.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Single%20Action/SW57060511035.jpg.html)



Idaho...2014...780 yards...same FA...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/20140906_171924_zps84a5c8ba.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/20140906_171924_zps84a5c8ba.jpg.html)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/20140906_172557_zps50ca8411.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/20140906_172557_zps50ca8411.jpg.html)

Bullet that passed through the target...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/20140906_171429_zpsc70c7de3.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/20140906_171429_zpsc70c7de3.jpg.html)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/20140903_110604_zpse724d5bc.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/20140903_110604_zpse724d5bc.jpg.html)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/20140902_112506_zps26edcfc8.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/20140902_112506_zps26edcfc8.jpg.html)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/022_zps807bbe29.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/022_zps807bbe29.jpg.html)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/024_zpsf7aff418.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/024_zpsf7aff418.jpg.html)



Border Patrol friend shooting my FA 97 at milk jugs at 100 yards...I watched him hit one 6/6 DA with my 657 Mountain Gun...an incredible shot.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/068_zps83b55c6e.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/Western%20Vacation%207-15-14/068_zps83b55c6e.jpg.html)



With the right loads the guns are incredibly accurate...it is we who fail them....

Bob

[35remington]

No problem with humans being the weak link.

The half inch on demand at fifty yards bit I don't see anyone proving with factory revolvers, though.

[RogerDat]

Me I'm just glad coke cans are red. At 50 yards the fuzzy red spot stands out enough that it is a visible aiming point. I get some holes in the can then I'm happy.

[fatelk]

I'm feeling a little better about myself now. No, I'll never play basketball like Michael Jordan, golf like Tiger Woods, or Drive like Mario Andretti, but I'd be happy to be able to practice to a point where I could shoot 2" groups on demand with any pistol or revolver. I just don't shoot enough. 100 rounds per day? 100 rounds in any given week would be a lot of range time for me.

I am interested in reading about loading tips or shooting techniques for exceptional accuracy, but at this point I know that I am definitely the weak link. I'm quite happy when I can get a 3" group at 25 yards. That's a good day for me. I'm seriously impressed when I see targets like some mentioned or posted earlier, but for me it's a bit like watching the aforementioned professional athletes; neat to know that it can be done, but not something I fantasize about being able to do myself. :)

[Whiterabbit]

y'all are better than me. Here's the best I can do at 25 yards standing offhand, and that's with a red dot!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106748&d=1401599424

Doesn't mean I can't aspire to be like the best of the best guys on here. got lucky once at 100 yards: (rested, and still with a red dot!)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125707&d=1419923889

Now I just have to figure out how to do that every time. For the time being, I have to be satisfied with repeating that group size any day of the week. ...at 25 yards....

[Lonegun1894]

We all have unbelievable groups if we shoot long enough. I have 2 scoped handguns that will do .35"@25yds on demand, and I have a couple that will only do 4"@25yds, and many in between. It depends on the purpose of the gun in question what I consider acceptable. The good ones will do an inch or less with irons at 25yds, and will consistently do 2" at 50yds.

In my case, I have put in a lot of time at the loading bench and on the trigger, and then you have good days, and bad days. I have also learned to NOT shoot to my potential in front of witnesses. After all, I don't shoot competition, and don't make money at it, and don't care if the people I shoot with know what I am or am not capable of. In fact, I'd rather they didn't. My last time shooting to prove a point, I was challenged by a guy at a range I used to work at, and the owner asked me to shut him up by outshooting him. I used my Springfield 1911A1, stock except for the trigger job I did myself, and shot 5 clay pigeons with 6 shots at 100 yds from a rest, and then put 8 rounds in the chest of a B-27 target (human silhouette) at 200 yds while standing and holding the gun with two hands, but no other support. Unfortunately, I was dumb enough to do this in front of about 300 witnesses, and word spread. Know what it got me? I haven't been able to go to this range since 2008 (when this happened) without getting stopped, interrupted, asked a bunch of stuff, and just can't go practice or shoot on my own in peace. I got a membership at another range 50 miles away, and go there instead, keep my mouth shut, and if there is anyone else there, I either shoot a gun I can't shoot as well, or intentionally throw shots to ruin groups so I don't get noticed. Now most of my guns, I can't do that kind of shooting with, but I have several that I can. The good ones, I don't shoot around other people. I also practice at double the range I intend to limit my hunting shots to. For example, that 1911 I mentioned, will hold 5"@100 yds from a rest most days. I have a BH .45 Colt that will do the same. I have been playing with a 5.5" SBH that has given me a single 1.5" group at 100 yds, but usually does that at 25yds. I have not been able to repeat that 1.5"@100 yet, and so far, the closest I have come is 3"@100, but my normal with it at 100 is 5-6". Yes, it is plenty good for deer and hogs out that far, but I keep chasing that 1.5" group with it telling myself if I can do it once, I can do it again. I doubt I will, but my groups are slowly getting better with it. Keep playing with your guns, both at the loading bench and the shooting bench, and you will improve. I have a friend that consistently outshoots me, and is over double my age, but he has spent a lot more time shooting than I have. Shoot with better shooters than you are if at all possible, and learn from them. If nothing else, use them as a goal to catch up to and then beat. Even if you don't beat them, you will improve.

In the end, I don't care what some shooter out there can do, I care what I can do, and I am always trying to improve. Why would you care? I try to work my way up to the things that people say can't be done. My old CO told me that a .45 was useless past 25 yds, cause he had tried for a week and never could make one shoot, so I challenged him to let me do a rifle qual with one, and QUALIFIED. Just barely, but I qualified. My old Chief told me that no one could draw, fire, and hit a target at 10 feet in under 2 seconds, because he had tried and had challenged everyone else in the department and they had told him they couldn't do it. I did it and put 6 in the head with that 1911 in 1.8 seconds. Then took his Glock 22 and put 5 in the head and the other 11 in the chest in 4 seconds. I shoot 200-500 rounds per week, where most of the people I have talked to at the range may come out once a month, if that. Or the ones that used to come out to do their re-qualifications for their concealed carry licenses that ask me how my groups look like they do and why theirs aren't as good, and then admit that the last time they shot was the previous qualification 5 years before that. Or the guy who got mad at me for failing his qual with his 1911 in 2013 when, as per his admission, the last time he shot anything was his M-16 back in 1972 when he got back from Viet Nam, but dang it, he qualified expert with it.

Your only true competition is YOU. As long as you keep improving, you're doing things right.

Forget what someone else claims they can do, and don't worry about it. When the time comes, regardless if it is hunting, or self defense, it will be YOU shooting your gun, not them shooting your gun. Work to improve your shooting, your technique, your loads. Don't accept what you can do today as your best, because unless you're an Olympic Gold Medalist, you can do better tomorrow, or the next day, or a week or a year from now.

[Hickok]

Hickok and I must not practice enough. I've cast and loaded my own ammo since 72, most I ever fired in 12 months was 11,000 44's. That's a long way from 50,000 a year like some of these guys shoot.427, you started about the same time I did. A Ruger .357 BH and a S&W Model 57 .357 is what got me pouring lead. Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, and Ken Waters were the writers I read.

[RJM52]

Lonegun said it all most elegantly.... To do well however and keep improving "practice doesn't make perfect...perfect practice makes perfect".

I have had students who shot regularly for years and years, sometimes decades and did no better than the day they started shooting...because they just kept making the same mistakes over and over and over again. You see them at the range all the time. One lesson and they go from buckshot patterns to groups...because they had been pulling the trigger the same way since day one instead of squeezing it... You see the same in Law Enforcement...why, because the trainers were taught by trainers who didn't know what they were doing...

Exercise also makes a big difference...the harder I work out the better I shoot.

Just work at being the best you can be....Bob

[Petrol & Powder]

"Some of the best shooting I ever heard of was done with a key board......."

That pretty much sums it up and I couldn't say it better !
THANK YOU ! rintinglen.

[Petrol & Powder]

Ahhh.... This is one of those threads where nobody can do any better than the most normal guy out there. Actually, the results follow the standard bell shaped distribution curve. Some revolvers do better than others... much, much better.... and some do worse. That depends a lot on just what you put in them, but that is up to the shooter. A good seasoned shooter can place his shots in the end of a Coke can at 50 yards... some of these guys do the inner part of it. All it takes is practice... lots of it .... to the tune of at least 50,000 rounds by the time you get there. If you can't do it, then practice some more.

I would agree with that EXCEPT when I read about all of these great shooters it seems they are ALL at the upper end of the bell curve. Shouldn't most of them be in the middle of the bell curve?
There are some exceptional shooters out there and I've known and shot with a few. The key to that last statement is the word "few".
I totally agree that some of what is claimed is possible and with good equipment and lot's of practice; excellent results can be obtained. It's just not as common as is frequently claimed.

[44man]

Long ago I had a S&W 27, Nickel plated, 6" barrel or so. I was given a bunch of .38 loads, factory. Was shooting at a can on a mud bank. Big holes in mud. Then nothing. I found the gun was shooting a few feet in front of me. Turned the gun over to see the muzzle split. One of the old factory rounds must have stopped there and the next split the muzzle. I was mixing .38's and .357's.
I sent the gun to S&W, had them remove the nickel and install an 8-3/8" ribbed barrel. S&W bright blue, cost me all of $35. I put the first Bushnell pistol scope on it. Phantom if I remember.
That gun with the 358156 and 2400 would hit 1" targets at 100 yards all day from prone.
I had as many as 6 S&W 29's and with my loads all did 1/2" at 50 but the hold on the grips is very sensitive so the groups would move on steel depending on my hold. That small group could move 10" by how I picked the gun up. Never did good at IHMSA, Hit the first 5 chickens dead center and miss the next 5. Sold off the guns. Nothing wrong with accuracy but I had no control. A Bisley does the same to me. With a Bisley I claim only ONE good group at 50. I bought a Ruger SBH Hunter with a Bisley and sold it in a few weeks. Damned stupid grip! Friend bought the Hunter with the hog leg, I did the trigger and put his Ultra Dot on. Using my loads to sight, he shot 1/2" at fifty every 5 shots until sighted. Shot his first deer with it in the neck.
A SRH out of box with cast can take coke cans at 200 yards from bags, just needs a firm hold. Might be one of the best .44's out there but the Hunter will equal it.
The BFR's are the most accurate ever made.
Don't think they can out shoot a rifle? You just do not understand the revolver. Not easy but I have told all how to make them work. It is still how and what you load. Your shakes like mine now are forgiven.
I have not shot near as much as some. Some revolvers are not shot much at all but when season opens and I go hunting, I have deer. I know what the guns will do.
I will cause a stir so forgive but the very worst to get accurate have been Freedoms.

[Thumbcocker]

Just sitting here taking it all in and taking notes.

[bcr]

Outliers.

By God's grace, I am good at several things. I can probably think of 10 things I'm in top 5% of the general population. I was good enough at playing the piano to play for church, but no better. I have a PhD in physics, but I'm not a great physicist. I have a purple belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, but I've been training for 14 years. The current world champions right now were 8 or 9 years old when I started training. I am definitely in the top 5% of the most successful investors I know. I was always pretty good at math, but not good enough to be a mathematician. I can almost always beat all but competitive chess players. I've taken concealed carry courses in three states. Two of the classes were very large - 40 or 50 people. I had the best qualification shoot of anyone in those classes, by a large margin. But I haven't been in a position to be able to shoot more than once a week since I was in high school.

So, I think I'm probably in the top 5% of the general population in a number of areas. But the general population is not much good at anything. In all these areas, I think about my teachers. I have not surpassed any one of my teachers in any of the areas above, unfortunately. I think I'm finally better than my father at shooting now, but he's over 60 and my eyesight hasn't started to deteriorate yet. I doubt I'm as good as he was when he was my age.

In a few areas, including shooting, I've interacted with some of the best in the world. One of my jiu-jitsu instructors was a four time world champion. I shot sillywets in Tucson with Ron Stryker, who had set seventy NRA sillywet national records. I saw him set one record.

After I got sufficiently involved in these things, I knew enough to understand that I was never going to equal the skill of my teachers. I just wasn't gifted enough in any particular area. But I know there are guys out there who are so much better at something than I am that I can't even begin to comprehend how much better they are.

For instance, in jiu-jitsu, I can't even give my original instructor a run for his money. My world-champion instructor would utterly dominate my original instructor. And he doesn't win world championships anymore. I can't even tell the difference rolling with them. They're so much better than me that the difference is effectively infinite. But there is a great difference between the two of them.

It is very rare that I meet someone who can outshoot me in what I do, which is open sighted practical pistols. But I don't compete anymore. They're sure out there, and I don't doubt whatsoever that there are guys who can shoot so much better than me that I can't even understand how it's possible.

Malcolm Glidewell says it takes 5000 hours to be a master of something and 10,000 hours to be a grandmaster. It doesn't mean that if you spend 10,000 hours you'll be a grandmaster, but you probably won't be a grandmaster without it. And with shooting, the equipment and components are so important that it's probably much harder.

Now go to Youtube and watch John Schmidt play "All of Me".

[44man]

My life was spent in the quest to make the revolver shoot, I really did.

[NSB]

44man, you've got to be sitting there laughing, thinking that anyone who ever knew how to shoot a revolver would believe any of this. The stories of Paul Bunyon and Baron Munchouson have nothing on you. I have witnessed the best silhouette shooters in the world do some remarkable things and none of them could even come close to the claims you're making. One of my very good friends won the IHMSA Internationals twice in revolver centerfire standing and also won the small bore standing in International Class. He couldn't even come close to doing the things you say that you do with regularity. I once shot 9x10 NRA rim fire rifle sized silhouette shoot off chickens at 100yds at a regional match with open sights on a handgun. I've never met anyone who could shoot a handgun better than I can in the Creedmore position, and I can tell you for a fact that I can't even come close to your claims. I've had Bill Davis build me revolvers that had to be seen to be believed for accuracy and I couldn't shoot them nearly as well as you claim. My summary? I don't believe any of it. Sounds like you have a very active imagination. You may have shot one group like that once, but you, nor anyone else, did it with regularity. FYI, one of the Bill Davis guns was a Model 27 and he put a 10" slab sided barrel on it and out of a machine rest it could do one inch at fifty yards. You're claiming you could shoot it into 1" at a hundred all the time. Big BS going on here. I apologize for saying all of this but not saying it might seem like I believe it and I don't. You're probably a nice guy but your stories are way out there. I hope you're not serious with any of them. You're just kidding, right?

[opos]

Some days you are the bug and some days you are the windshield...as I've gotten older (77 now) I've found my consistency is the issue...I can shoot decent (not like 40 years ago) groups and there are days my "groups" look like a pattern. I worried about it for a while and finally decided it's for fun...not anything else for me these days so when I get upset at the way I'm shooting...I do the thing the way our government would do it...I shoot close range at a blank piece of paper...then pick the nicest group and draw a target around those shots...makes me proud!! Show it to the folks at the counter when I leave the range..accept the congratulations and go home...if the government can make up stories and bask in the glory of their success, so can I.

[robertbank]

Entertaining if nothing else. Does hitting clay pigeions 3 out of 10 with a Model 27 count for anything? Two of us were hitting a 15" plate at 100 yards about 3 out of 10 times after we walked our rounds into it. That was with our 4.2" Ruger GP-100's using 38spl RN lead bullets with Clays as the pusher. Well maybe it was closer to 2 out of 10 times.

One inch groups at 100 yards with iron pistol sights.....nope not even. Well maybe groups of 1. 44Man I don't doubt you were an excellent shooter and likely still are relative to most but you are an even better story teller...and that is alright to.

Take Care

Bob

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snipped...
Example; "Today I shot my S&W .44 mag with a 4 inch barrel, using a 325 gr cast boolit loaded to 1350 fps. Off the bench @ 25 yds. groups were only so-so, running 1 1/2" to 2" for 6 shots. I fired 5 groups of 6 shots each, and that is the best the S&W would do!"
I read through this whole thread...some of you claiming to shoot this caliber as well or better than the OP's example. Well, on the right day and with the right load, I probably can have a few 1.5" six shot groups mixed in with some other groups that aren't so good.

BUT, Not after 30 rounds of revolver rattlin ammo !
>>> 325gr boolit goin 1350fps in a 4" S&W...Good GOD !



Just sitting here taking it all in and taking notes.
Yep, Me too.

[Blackwater]

I've long been a pretty good shot, but my eyes never had the acuity to let me ever be a really great shot. I had to learn to "weigh" and line up the blurs, hold steady and follow through. I can usually do 1.5-2" at 25 yds., but age and diabetes has me much less sure of that on any given day than I once was. However, a buddy has eyes that I swear enable him to nearly read newsprint at 100 yds. can shoot right up to the gun's potential from a fixed rest. He's just plain phenomenal, and when I have a gun I REALLY want to see do its best, I always go to him to have him see what he can do with it, and the loads I have for it.

Accuracy expectations are a very personal thing. I do, however, fear that there are a great many shooters out there who are capable of MUCH better accuracy than they're used to accepting. I believe that if they'd only pay closer attention to what they're doing, often particularly involving follow through, they'd reach heights they'd never really anticipated reaching. Since it doesn't take anything extra, other than honest observation, willingness to try out new things for effect, and a sincere desire to get better, it really surprises me that many more don't really apply themselves to the task of getting really good at shooting. Tight nerves due to fear of failure provokes an awful lot of failure on target, so that has to be mastered too, but that really isn't difficult at all, and overcoming ego has all sorts of other benefits as well.

Still, if you and your guns and loads won't do 1.5" for pistols at 25 yds., you need to work on something, and maybe all 3. That's MHO, anyway.

[robertbank]

I've long been a pretty good shot, but my eyes never had the acuity to let me ever be a really great shot. I had to learn to "weigh" and line up the blurs, hold steady and follow through. I can usually do 1.5-2" at 25 yds., but age and diabetes has me much less sure of that on any given day than I once was. However, a buddy has eyes that I swear enable him to nearly read newsprint at 100 yds. can shoot right up to the gun's potential from a fixed rest. He's just plain phenomenal, and when I have a gun I REALLY want to see do its best, I always go to him to have him see what he can do with it, and the loads I have for it.

Accuracy expectations are a very personal thing. I do, however, fear that there are a great many shooters out there who are capable of MUCH better accuracy than they're used to accepting. I believe that if they'd only pay closer attention to what they're doing, often particularly involving follow through, they'd reach heights they'd never really anticipated reaching. Since it doesn't take anything extra, other than honest observation, willingness to try out new things for effect, and a sincere desire to get better, it really surprises me that many more don't really apply themselves to the task of getting really good at shooting. Tight nerves due to fear of failure provokes an awful lot of failure on target, so that has to be mastered too, but that really isn't difficult at all, and overcoming ego has all sorts of other benefits as well.

Still, if you and your guns and loads won't do 1.5" for pistols at 25 yds., you need to work on something, and maybe all 3. That's MHO, anyway.

Blackwater give me my 20 year old eyes back and reflexes to go with it and I am your man. Although I am not sure even then my eyes were as good as some of the more gifted on this thread. For one thing you really have to want to do it. Heck I know it is important for some to shoot that good and God bless them, just not for me I don't have the patience, skill, or desire to....now breaking PAR in my 40's was a pretty important thing to me before my lower back went south. To each his own. I do have a few signed score cards to prove I did it and one framed.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

NSB I don't think I am going to be calling anyone on here a BSer just because I can't match it myself until I have seen that person shoot and they prove they can't do it.
I was very good at a lot of different shooting sports but there was always some one out there who could prove he was better. Some of the time that person was so much better it was hard to believe even seeing it happen in person.

[45 2.1]

................... but there was always some one out there who could prove he was better. Some of the time that person was so much better it was hard to believe even seeing it happen in person.

Now isn't that just the truth......... A lot of people were separated from their money because of it too.

[Mtnfolk75]

I can ring a 10"x10" Gong at 50 yards about 5 out of 6 shots. That is shooting either a S&W Model 19-6 or Model 64-3 4" with 158 Grain Boolits while using a bag. When I go to a 2" Model 10-5, Colt Agent or Model 38 No dash, the hit ratio goes to about 3 out of 6 for the Model 10-5 and Colt Agent and about 2 out of 5 for the Model 38 No dash. I'm 61 years old and have been shooting revolvers since about 1970, I try to shoot about 100 rounds a month from my revolvers. Some days are better than others ...... [smilie=s:

[35remington]

And.....one....more.....time.......

Stock Smith or Ruger revolver, half inch at fifty on demand........STILL don't buy it. Don't care if it's handheld with a 64X scope or a Ransom Rest. I don't buy it as plausibly possible. Unfortunately I've been around the block too many times to be that gullible.

[fouronesix]

The best I was ever able to do from a rest (not a Ransom or mechanical) using good 38 Spl ammo out of a S&W Mod 14, 4 or 6" bbl with open Patridge sights with at most a slicked trigger was about 5-6" @ 50 yards.

The best shooters in the game that I saw, with a similar revolver at the time, was about 3-4" @ 50 yards. The difference with those shooters is that they could do it without a rest and many of them only shot double action…. for consistency.

These groups were for 10-25 rounds- not 3-5.

[Silverboolit]

I had a long time friend and fairly good pistol shot tell me this. When you start shooting pistol/revolvers, start at about 5 yards. When all of the bollits go into a 2" circle, practice at that level some more. Then after you have 'mastered' the 5 yd, go to 8 yds. No more than that. Keep doing this until you can hit what you're aiming at at the distance that you choose. Nothing more disheartening than trying to shoot at 25 when you cannot hit at 5.
Kinda made sense to me as your confidence is built up slowly and deliberately. It has worked for me.And I still have a hard time of it on certain days. LOL!!

[PWS]

My wife's stupid little stock 4" SP101 will shoot the LEE 125gr flat point into 1 1/2" at 50yards regularly - IF I DO MY PART. The light has to be right for the iron sights, not much wind, just ate a big relaxing meal etc... Had a .22LR Buckmark that would do the same with CCI Small Game Bullet loads.

However, if it's 2" at fifty, I'm VERY happy and normally expect 3" or so with "good" loads.

[NSB]

NSB I don't think I am going to be calling anyone on here a BSer just because I can't match it myself until I have seen that person shoot and they prove they can't do it.
I was very good at a lot of different shooting sports but there was always some one out there who could prove he was better. Some of the time that person was so much better it was hard to believe even seeing it happen in person.

The biggest "stretch" in the whole story is saying it can be done with a stock gun. Never, never, never gonna happen. Forget the shooter, the gun won't do it at 100yds. When someone tells me a story like this and I don't respond, it's agreement by silence. I don't agree. You many form your own opinion as is your right. I have mine and I've been at this a very, very long time.

[Outpost75]

I am always amused by people who claim group sizes from a stock revolver which are better than most factory match ammunition can produce from an industrial accuracy test barrel fired from a five ton concrete pedestal in an underground test tunnel.

I don't believe it. They should be at Camp Perry winning the Nationals!

[44man]

I did win Ohio IHMSA with 79 out of 80. Missed the last ram from a shake. Stock SBH.
I also won .22 Ohio with a stock Ruger mark II with no sight settings, new gun. Missed the first pig, turkey and ram but my spotter seen hits. 57 out of 60 and I cleaned all shoot off chickens at 100 yards.
Back then the sights and the targets were in focus. As old as I am, I refuse to shoot big bores less then 50 yards. From bags I still want 1" or less. Creedmore has a strange big belly in the way now but still works. Damned crooked neck too. Need to pull glasses down my nose. I will still out shoot a Ransom rest. It is still how you load and trigger control. I won so many groceries with flintlocks the club changed rules. The old timers were fit to be tied and now they get prizes if they miss all targets. Like bowling with a handicap. I shot a 292 out of 300 in archery and lost because of the handicap system. That junk went away. Guys would sandbag. Then shoot to win, free points.
I won the Army trophy at the 500 yard KD range using the M1, one shot out of the X ring.
I took more rounds from the ammo points and shot at the disks coming up on other targets. Shot the Maggie's drawers too. Shot sticks in half, pissed the sarge in the pits off. Had to throw empties away from me. Shot a 2x2 stake down range and the sarge was watching the guy. I heard him say 'the target, stupid, not the stake."
I wonder how I got away with it. i was in the barracks when the pit crew came in and the first thing I heard was "Miner, you sob." Pit sarge was screaming bloody murder. I pleaded ignorance of course. Before the army I was head shooting chucks over 600 yards. Pre 64 model 70 in 220 swift.
I made the revolver shoot. It was at my bench.

[44man]

My best group with the .220 Swift was 5 shots in 1/4" at 350 yards. Beat that one! Balvar 24 scope.
I had hundreds of trophy's. Archery, ML, rifle, etc. Don't talk about 1-1/2" with a revolver at 25 yards. You feed the gun wrong and an out of box revolver CAN do it at 100 yards.

[BCgunworks]

1/4" at 350 yds....5 shots.....where is the bs flag...

we had to go to the extreme to get a wheel gun to hold MOA consistently every time, every cylinder full....it became more of a shooting system....the franken ruger...
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff460/bcgunworks/IMG_0165_zps88c919b3.jpg (http://s1236.photobucket.com/user/bcgunworks/media/IMG_0165_zps88c919b3.jpg.html)

that series of gun will do it....as a rule of thumb I have found most MOA wheel gun claims to be bs

[Outpost75]

I love the thread as entertainment. When he military teams were still shooting M1s and not M14s, the SR decimal target had nor been adopted yet, not until 1966 at the Interservice and Camp Perry. The V-ring on the old Army A target was 5" at 200 and 300 yards, so onlt one shot out of THAT I believe. But if you were ona military team shooting an M1 on the SR target, it must have been Air Force or Navy, possibly a Marine Reserve team, and the Garand was 7.62, and those did shoot VERY well. Mine was 4208350 and was built by Charlie Frazer at NWSC Crane, IN.

[Tar Heel]

Here is a great group from a F/A Casull. I almost always get a flyer out of a group and well, that has to count in the group size. Factory ammo may eliminate such flyers but with my cast bullets and handloads, I seem to have to put up with them. The gun is capable of delivering the cloverleaf groups. With us driving, we deal with the "flyers." I don't care if you "call the flyer" or not, it counts in the group size.

Picture is from 25 yards, rest position, slow fire, careful aim. I have old eyes, no corrective lenses. Sights are getting a tad difficult to see now since I need reading glasses.

126261

Here is a larger, more general group just having fun with the Vaquero and a "test" load at 25 yards. Group size was unmeasured but looks to be between 4 and 6 inches. This is an average looking group for a fun offhand banging session.

126262

And here is an offhand group, slow fire, careful aim, two hand hold with a 1860 Army. 36 shots at 25 yards. Pretty good grouping but ALL of the rounds count in the group size. Can't cheat and eliminate the "flyers" from the group.

126263

Hope these help in the evaluation. Only have that one target to show for the bench rest position and meeting all of the other criteria of open sights etc.

[tazman]

That's good shooting even with the flier.
I understand about the eyesight. I never had really good eyesight and it is getting worse.

[RogerDat]

Well Tar Heel those "fliers" in that BMC target still look like they "worked".
I guess it is safe to say you've done this target shooting thing before, at least a few times ;-)

One of my motivations for getting into reloading was to make practice more affordable.

[45 2.1]

Lots of naysayers on this thread. You take 100 revolvers of the line, feed them good handloads and you'll find about 10% that will do beyond your expectations. Put those in the hands of a really good knowledgeable handloader that knows his stuff and they will perform a whole lot better than most anyone here will believe. It really depends on just what you put in the gun and how well you can control yourself. Yep, some factory revolvers will do that as I've seen it for myself.

[44man]

Had an argument once so I took 5 shots down and shot Creedmore with my Vaquero at 50 yards. This is what I got. 320 gr Lyman with 21.5 gr of 296.126268
Friend had a Freedom .475 and my boolit did 1/2" at 50 yards.
Then Whitworth was out, New out of box BFR in .500 JRH. He shot at a can at 100 yards and it did not fall, I took the next shot. This is the result. 126269
Two shots from two guys, same hole. Whit is a fantastic shot.

[robertbank]

There seems to be a misconception that some, including me I suppose, think the equipment is not capable of the claimed accuracy. Speaking for myself I don't. Revolvers are extremely accurate and far more so than almost all semi autos I can think of due for the most part because of the mechanical advantage of a fixed barrel. What some of us have a hard time believing, and with good reason, that revolvers with iron sights are capable of shooting 6" groups at 200 yards when shot in the hands of a human as recently claimed by a poster on another thread. Heck the front sight covers more than 6" of the target at that range. Use the six o'clock hold and you are looking at more than six inches of paper. Are the guns capable of shooting that kind of group? How would we know? Can we hit a plate at 200 yards? Heck yes, most likely can...even ugly girls get lucky. But groups of say five or ten, come on now the odds would be greater than winning the weekly lottery every week for a month.

Sorry but I remain skeptical. With a scope the game changes.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

Shotgun shell shot at 100 yards, out of box BFR .500 JRH. 126270126271 Last two .44 rounds I had left after an IHMSA shoot. Cardboard chicken at 200 meters. Open sights, Creedmore. Stock Ruger gun.
Don't tell me you need to spend a lot of money to do this stuff.

[Petrol & Powder]

I am always amused by people who claim group sizes from a stock revolver which are better than most factory match ammunition can produce from an industrial accuracy test barrel fired from a five ton concrete pedestal in an underground test tunnel.

I don't believe it. They should be at Camp Perry winning the Nationals!

/\ YES - THANK YOU !!!!
There are claims on this thread that exceed reality.

[44man]

Working loads with Whitworths new .500 JRH. 50 yards from bags. 126272
Stinking gun is worthless, Hole is over boolit size. :bigsmyl2:
How many more pictures do you need? How about this? .475 at 50 yards. 126273126274 Can shot 5 times in the one hole in the top at 100 yards. Rest are from a friends .45 acp rifle.

[NSB]

Had an argument once so I took 5 shots down and shot Creedmore with my Vaquero at 50 yards. This is what I got. 320 gr Lyman with 21.5 gr of 296.126268
Friend had a Freedom .475 and my boolit did 1/2" at 50 yards.
Then Whitworth was out, New out of box BFR in .500 JRH. He shot at a can at 100 yards and it did not fall, I took the next shot. This is the result. 126269
Two shots from two guys, same hole. Whit is a fantastic shot.
You're seriously saying that an empty soda can was hit with a very heavy, large caliber slug and didn't fall over? It just keeps getting deeper and deeper. I once saw a squirrel swimming out of Lake Erie with a sturgeon in its mouth. If you don't believe it, I'll take a picture of the lake and prove it to you.

[white eagle]

small groups are fine and something to strive for but I am a hunter and the first shot is what matters to me.I believe that one shot aimed and hit where you aim is a good group.

[contender1]

I have followed this thread with a lot of study & amusement. I happen to have had the pleasure of meeting many of the top handgun shooters for many years. Many of them can do stuff with a handgun that defies most average shooters. I have seen some of my guns do MUCH better in other folks hands than my own. I have had factory production guns shoot scary accurate & others that make me wonder where they were hitting.
My best one, ever, in my hands from a rest, at 50 yds with a scope was a Ruger Redhawk in 44 mag. Out of the box, first rounds of moderate reloads, at 50 yds with the scope, doing a scope adjustment, the very first group was 1-1/2" and placed 3" to the left of center. Made a few clicks of windage on the scope & re-fired 6. Centered, and again a very good group.
Then I worked on my reloads for that gun. I found a moderate load that regularly put 1" groups or less at 50 yds, measured from center to center. I had a FEW under that, and one of the best was a 6 shot hole that the entire hole was less than 1". In fact the hole measured .989. I still have that target & info on it in my files.
Then, that gun went away in the worst way. The barrel separated from the frame. Mine was the very first Redhawk that had the barrel separate from the frame. It went back to Ruger & they replaced it.
But, my point is this.
A factory produced handgun, can, without modifications be very accurate. More accurate than the operator quite often.

Next, having watched many good shooters PERSONALLY do things I felt were next to impossible, I would never call anybody a liar unless we were together, they made a claim, then failed to back it up with proof. I think it is in poor taste to call a person out when you haven't met with them & given them the opportunity to prove the claims.
Besides, how do we know who anybody is with internet names vs. real names?
I was raised to be polite & respectful, even if I doubted anybody. I for one would love to meet with 44man & sit & listen to see what he has to say. I will gladly give him & anybody else the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong.

[44man]

Trophy, notice International class.126284

[Bignutt]

I also own a 500 jrh in a bfr and when I had a scope on it and I had a good day I could shoot tomatoes at a 100. You put a better shot behind the wheel and I can believe the bfr claims that's for sure, don't see why once in a while a ruger couldn't do the same thing.

[44man]

I carried my work to the hunting fields. Nothing is more important to me then accuracy when deer hunting, There is a small place for "good enough." Good enough at 50 just cuts your range down. I do love those 20 yard shots but with at least a brace on my knees, 100 or a little over is doable. I don't like long shots. But I know my guns will do it if the nut behind it is working. I do not believe in making any gun shoot just for velocity alone.

[c1skout]

I'm a poor shot, at least in my opinion. I don't have any scopes or dots on my handguns, and do most of my testing outdoors from 25, 42, 50, and 100yds because those are the ranges that are usually available to me. I have some loads that I can regularly keep inside of 6" on the 100yd range from a rest with my 45, and I think a good pistol shot could half that with my gun. I keep records of my load work-ups and note them in my book as, for instance: Shot @ 25yds- 6 in 3.75" Best 3 in .78"

I figure that the best 3 are nearer to what the ammo-gun combo will do before I screw it up!

[robertbank]

Shooting 1" groups at 50 yards is one thing. Shooting 1" groups at 200 yards is quite another. I have hit a clay pigeon with my old Model 27 at 100 yards but that sure isn't shooting a 3" group at 100 yards or hitting the clay pigeon 10 x 10 or even regularly. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

44man you are without a doubt a very good revolver shooter, to that their is no question from me. Please don't tell me you or anyone else has shot a 2" group at 200 yards with a iron sighted revolver at 200 yards. When I say group I am talking about five shots at 200 yards with notch and post sights.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

You're seriously saying that an empty soda can was hit with a very heavy, large caliber slug and didn't fall over? It just keeps getting deeper and deeper. I once saw a squirrel swimming out of Lake Erie with a sturgeon in its mouth. If you don't believe it, I'll take a picture of the lake and prove it to you.
Yes it did not fall. We thought it was a miss.126286Here is the back of the can.
I did the same with my 7R at 100. Can would not fall so I kept changing my hold, never did fall. Found the can full of holes. Now the can I shot 5 times I showed had to be set up after every shot. Why a 440 gr boolit did not take the can down? I don't know.

[dubber123]

I only own 1 scoped handgun, and it's one of my least accurate. It also has one of the the longest barrels. Everything else is iron sighted. I am way, way out of good shooting shape, I just don't have time to put the rounds down range. That said, a fair percentage of the groups is have shot this year were 1-1/2" or less at 25 yds. shot from a rest on the top of my car while standing. I have gotten multiple sub 1" groups from at least 3 different guns, a pair of new (to me) S&W's and a F/A .357 The last 2 fired from the F/A were .770" for 5, and .748" for 5, both groups with a flier. 4 were in .5" The S&W's, both .38's, were also in the 3/4" range. I also have a Bisley Ruger .32 mag I picked up this year that is consistantly under 1", and as small as .4" for 6.

The Ruger has a 1.5# trigger job, otherwise stock, the S&W's got firelapped, the F/A has a 1.5# trigger and reamed throats by DougGuy.

Nope, I can't do it for 50 groups in a row, but I am 100% positive it is me, not the guns. I just can't maintain focus that long. I can almost always tell when I did something dumb when shooting, and know when a flier went down range. I can't fault the guns for operator error. I'd expect a good gun with minimal tuning to be closer to 1" at 25 yds. I have mostly S&W's, but I would expect the same from a Ruger. The nasty triggers on many factory guns are the biggest hindrance.

[44man]

Such an amazing gun. Never tell me a revolver will not shoot.

[35remington]

Nobody's saying that. What they're saying is that 1/2 inch at fifty yards on demand as a true representation of what the gun will do from stock Ruger and Smith revolvers just ain't gonna happen with anybody or anything, including a machine rest. I'm saying it too.

I'm just not that gullible or that BS susceptible. Most shooters of experience aren't either. People can say whatever they want. What is believed is another matter.

[Uncle R.]

I make no personal claims for my ability with iron sights.
I was fair-to-middlin' with my Super Blackhawk back in the 80s but never world class, and my eyes are fading now.
I will say that I shot in a lot of silhouette matches in those days, and some of the very best shooters with the very best revolvers could do things that would defy belief if I hadn't seen it myself.
Shoot-offs in state championships?
How about chickens at 200 meters?
We're talking roughly 4" or maybe 5" groups to stay on the chicken reliably - at 200 meters. That's 218 yards. That's near 2 MOA which translates to 1/2" groups at your real-world 25 yard target.
Not from bags - not from a bench.
Creedmore.
I watched shoot-offs where the contestants ran 10 chickens - and 10 chickens - and 10 chickens again and again at 200 meters. Finally the match directors would bring out the smaller rimfire targets. (There was no hunter's pistol class in those days.) I watched shooters hitting targets so small that I could barely see them even with my younger eyes. Just a tiny orange speck at 200 meters - the equivalent of a postage stamp at 50 yards - and the best shooters would hit them more often than not. Iron sights. No bench - no bags.
You can ridicule the stories of those who've done it if it makes you feel better, but don't think you'll convince me.
I've been there. I've watched shooters like 44Man in their prime. I know what they could do. I've seen them do it.
<
Uncle R.

[44man]

Shooting 1" groups at 50 yards is one thing. Shooting 1" groups at 200 yards is quite another. I have hit a clay pigeon with my old Model 27 at 100 yards but that sure isn't shooting a 3" group at 100 yards or hitting the clay pigeon 10 x 10 or even regularly. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

44man you are without a doubt a very good revolver shooter, to that their is no question from me. Please don't tell me you or anyone else has shot a 2" group at 200 yards with a iron sighted revolver at 200 yards. When I say group I am talking about five shots at 200 yards with notch and post sights.

Take Care

Bob
I suppose I have. Every shot at IHMSA was dead center until a shake made me miss the last ram. Did you ever hit 20 straight turkeys at 150 meters?
I did a drop test at 200 yards with my boolit. 1-5/16" 126310Darn sorry it was not ten shots.
Eyesight has gone to pot and I shake a lot so most are memories. I did this a few years ago with the .44 SBH, off hand at 100 yards. 126317Just three shots but 3/4". Long ago you could set 6 pop cans at 100 yards and I would take all with 6 shots, open sights, Creedmore.
Darn it is not me, it is the loads that shoot better then I can. I fail to explain that most guns will shoot and what you load is what counts.

[robertbank]

44man hitting turkeys at 200 yards is not shooting 6" groups at 200 yards. You know that and so do I. Pop cans at 100 yards is not 6" groups at 200 yards. I am sure you are a good shot and likely even better with young eyes. I don't think even you would claim to shoot six inch groups at 200 yards...would you? I am not talking fluking a 3" group at that distance either. I am talking a five shot group 6" or under with notch and posts sights.

Incidently I have seem aluminum pop cans do what you described. Tin cans are different they will roll and bounce but the aluminum cans hardly rock when hit. I have seen them spin a bit when you catch the thicker rim but body shots and they often just sit there.

Take care

Bob

[44man]

I make no personal claims for my ability with iron sights.
I was fair-to-middlin' with my Super Blackhawk back in the 80s but never world class, and my eyes are fading now.
I will say that I shot in a lot of silhouette matches in those days, and some of the very best shooters with the very best revolvers could do things that would defy belief if I hadn't seen it myself.
Shoot-offs in state championships?
How about chickens at 200 meters?
We're talking roughly 4" or maybe 5" groups to stay on the chicken reliably - at 200 meters. That's 218 yards. That's near 2 MOA which translates to 1/2" groups at your real-world 25 yard target.
Not from bags - not from a bench.
Creedmore.
I watched shoot-offs where the contestants ran 10 chickens - and 10 chickens - and 10 chickens again and again at 200 meters. Finally the match directors would bring out the smaller rimfire targets. (There was no hunter's pistol class in those days.) I watched shooters hitting targets so small that I could barely see them even with my younger eyes. Just a tiny orange speck at 200 meters - the equivalent of a postage stamp at 50 yards - and the best shooters would hit them more often than not. Iron sights. No bench - no bags.
You can ridicule the stories of those who've done it if it makes you feel better, but don't think you'll convince me.
I've been there. I've watched shooters like 44Man in their prime. I know what they could do. I've seen them do it.
<
Uncle R.
Thank you, I seen many that made me look sick but they would go out of their way to help. I am so proud to know the best of the best and how they worked so hard to help anyone. I have tried to continue. Many do not know the extreme accuracy and that I can't equal others.
How many here know what a chicken looks like at 200 meters? To see a group on a 200 meter chicken smaller then what others brag about at 25 yards, kind of rubs me wrong.
I won Ohio .22 state too and cleaned 25 yard chickens at 100 yards. See the period here? That is the target.
Yes I have seen guys shoot 1" groups at 200 meters with a revolver, get over it. I have shot better then David Bradshaw on occasion. But he is one of the best of the best. So was Boyd Carpenter and Josie Engle, Blacky Sleeva. I knew them all and shot with them. They would go out of their way to help anyone. Those that out shot me with a revolver are few and far between.
I would go up to guys that were failing to help. Guess what, they knew too much.

[44man]

44man hitting turkeys at 200 yards is not shooting 6" groups at 200 yards. You know that and so do I. Pop cans at 100 yards is not 6" groups at 200 yards. I am sure you are a good shot and likely even better with young eyes. I don't think even you would claim to shoot six inch groups at 200 yards...would you? I am not talking fluking a 3" group at that distance either. I am talking a five shot group 6" or under with notch and posts sights.

Incidently I have seem aluminum pop cans do what you described. Tin cans are different they will roll and bounce but the aluminum cans hardly rock when hit. I have seen them spin a bit when you catch the thicker rim but body shots and they often just sit there.

Take care

Bob
Yes I could, back then with opens. Now I go crazy. Have so many floaters from my left eye I see movement in the woods, hunting. Just the floaters.

[jmort]

I hate the floaters, just had a very large posterior vitreous detachment that was really scary at first. Had no idea what was happening. Very annorying, at least the light flashes went away.

[Clark]

I have a number of rifles I have built that have shot under 0.5" 5 shots at 100 yards. So I am ok with a rifle. But I am terrible shot with a handgun. The only handguns I can shoot are heavy 22 revolvers with scopes from a rest.
126335

[Dennis Eugene]

I'm not now nor will I will I ever be a great shot with a hand gun. However I do like to shoot. Did this last weekend, I live in Alaska and it was cold and very windy( look at the trees) the wind did not affect the boolit but it did affect me. This was done with an auto loader and my revolvers shoot better. If I can do this on a miserable day I have to believe many can do better under better conditions with better tools. Just click on the picture it is our link to the video. Dennis

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l497/youngmaster357/th_100_2572_zpstyxphbho.mp4 (http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l497/youngmaster357/100_2572_zpstyxphbho.mp4)

[fatelk]

I'm reading with curiosity. I'm an amateur, not an exceptional shot, and don't get a lot of practice so it's all academic to me anyhow. But I am curious.

My grandfather used to insist that any gun would put all rounds through the same hole at any range, if you just bolted it down in a vice. Of course he was clueless in that regard, but is my old S&W 629 in the safe really capable of accuracy on par with my best rifles, if only I had some superhuman abilities and knew the magic recipe for a load? (No offense intended, I am curious as to what it could really do)

I know with most people, the human is the week link. I also know that with enough raw ability, talent and training, humans can be capable of some absolutely incredible feats. At that point the equipment becomes the weak link. What are my old revolvers really capable of? I expect I'll never really know because I have neither the time nor drive to personally get good enough to find out. Still curious though. :)

Added: reading through this thread it's nice to learn that my 3" to 4" 25 yard shooting with pistols really isn't too bad for an average guy.

[ole 5 hole group]

Once this went to 3 pages, I typed out a couple replys but never hit the submit button - damn, I just got to do it now.

If you're not a dedicated competitive shooter you probably haven't shot many bug-holes groups. I say this because it takes true dedication and I mean TRUE DEDICATION to become very proficient and consistent with any firearm.

I'm not a top flight competitor but I tried to be - tried real hard for several years. If you wanted to earn a Master's Classification in bullseye back in the 60's and 70's (no optics allowed) and then break that coveted 2600 mark, then the 2650 god-like goal, you probably fired 50,000 plus rounds per year. That translates to 150 rounds or a few more per day for 6 days of a week with the last day (7th day) firing 270 rounds for score. For reference the bullseye is 3.3 inches at both 25 and 50 yards - 50 yards is slow fire while 25 yards is timed and ragged fire standing using one arm only.

Unless you were sponsored, a LE competitor whose department/agency supplied the ammo or had mighty deep pockets - you reloaded. Have any idea how much time one spent scrounging for lead, melting that lead down into bars, then into bullets using a 20# pot and 4 cavity mold (20# pot and a 6 cavity never worked for me) and then getting on the progressive reloader and cranking out the cartridges. You then worked with weights 3 days a week and squeezed a rubber ball every day or that spring thing to keep your grip strong. How about walking around the house holding out a heavy book at arms length to keep that shooting arm strong for that 50 yard string. Then there's that dry firing thing. Never did figure out how to stretch a few more hours into a day.

Two or three days a month you probably travelled to a match with one, maybe two days your club sponsored the match. Guess who keeps the pistol range in shape for those sponsored matches – Ya, the competitors in that shooting discipline.

Shooting rimfire chickens at 25 meters is not easy – 100 meters??? Try that sometime and you’ll quickly learn to appreciate a firm, consistent grip – without it you don’t stand much of a chance. With a consistent grip, perfect sight alignment and a perfect trigger press – well, maybe a couple will fall.

I’ve shot a few matches in a few shooting sports and have a couple medals, trophies and earned a couple bucks in the Calcutta’s and I earned a top 20 National patch in Hunter Benchrest. Sometimes the top shooters had to shoot a point or two under their average and I had to shoot maybe a point above my average to win – but that’s how it goes some days.

There are no free lunches in the shooting sports if you’re going to be consistent in shooting small groups. You have to put in the time on the line and do everything else that goes along with it and still try to make the family happy. No small task and for those that have done that, been there and gave their best – you have earned your way in the shooting sports and what was once a major accomplishment is now a memory but some of those with prescription shooting glasses or using a red dot and in good health can still shoot a mighty fine group compared to most.


If you haven't put in the time as mentioned - a 2" group off bags at 25 yards consistently is some good shooting. If you're a "natural" and there's not many of those, you can do better but a good well tuned revolver or 1911 in the hands of those who put in the time - well, they can shoot - sometimes.

126345
This is what a grip change can do at 25 yards - at least that is my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

[Good Cheer]

Lyman's 313249 sized .309 and 2 1/2 grains of AL-5.
Best dadgum duck load you ever saw.

ole 5 hole group,
I'm in the process of building musculature back up. Rubber ball included!

[dtknowles]

I make no personal claims for my ability with iron sights.
I was fair-to-middlin' with my Super Blackhawk back in the 80s but never world class, and my eyes are fading now.
I will say that I shot in a lot of silhouette matches in those days, and some of the very best shooters with the very best revolvers could do things that would defy belief if I hadn't seen it myself.
Shoot-offs in state championships?
How about chickens at 200 meters?
We're talking roughly 4" or maybe 5" groups to stay on the chicken reliably - at 200 meters. That's 218 yards. That's near 2 MOA which translates to 1/2" groups at your real-world 25 yard target.
Not from bags - not from a bench.
Creedmore.
I watched shoot-offs where the contestants ran 10 chickens - and 10 chickens - and 10 chickens again and again at 200 meters. Finally the match directors would bring out the smaller rimfire targets. (There was no hunter's pistol class in those days.) I watched shooters hitting targets so small that I could barely see them even with my younger eyes. Just a tiny orange speck at 200 meters - the equivalent of a postage stamp at 50 yards - and the best shooters would hit them more often than not. Iron sights. No bench - no bags.
You can ridicule the stories of those who've done it if it makes you feel better, but don't think you'll convince me.
I've been there. I've watched shooters like 44Man in their prime. I know what they could do. I've seen them do it.
<
Uncle R.

Were they shooting revolvers, I thought that single shots were allowed. Contenders and XP100's etc,

Tim

[birddog]

I'm one to wring it out on the ransom rest if there is one close at hand. This takes the guess work out of what the shooter is doing, that being said I agree with the good eyes and younger gender. Those days passed by a few years back now and I can say that I don't shoot as well as I used to. I read somewhere the discussion on go to round for the 44Mag and that was said to be 24gr of WW296 behind the 240gr jacketed bullet. So my guess is if you try jacketed bulliets and can not get any better performance, you may be at the best of your game.
Charlie

[Tar Heel]

Well Tar Heel those "fliers" in that BMC target still look like they "worked".
I guess it is safe to say you've done this target shooting thing before, at least a few times ;-)

One of my motivations for getting into reloading was to make practice more affordable.

With our handloads, we get a lot of trigger time. As you know, trigger time improves our accuracy. Our handloads allow us that luxury and for some of us, experiments with different powders, primers, seating depths....nerd stuff.
That Casull will shoot. Knowing the gun can deliver that level of accuracy eliminates one variable when looking for loads to use.

What is amazing is the accuracy from the BP revolvers. The guns will shoot much better than most folks realize because they don't get consistent with their loading. Granted....40 years of shooting them is helpful in that light, but anybody (I repeat ANYBODY) can get that level of accuracy if you attempt to be CONSISTENT with your load.

All that being said...I frankly have bad days at the range where things just don't synchronize. I have pictures of those targets too. 12" groups with a cast boolit load in the 300 Win for example.

We all have good groups, we all have shot groups we would care to forget. It's all fun.

[Uncle R.]

Were they shooting revolvers, I thought that single shots were allowed. Contenders and XP100's etc,

Tim

Tim:
Were they shooting revolvers? Yes - sometimes. It depends on the class. Revolvers in revolver class - single shots like contenders in production class - XPs and similar "hand rifles" in unlimited class. All iron sights. That was what they did back in the 80s - I'm not familiar with the classes and rules these days. I've fallen way out of the IHMSA competition world as MY world got taken up with mortgage and kids and schools and scouts and all of the things that trying to be "Ward Cleaver" entail.
<
Not all revolvers could deliver these results but at least some of them were unbelievably accurate. In those days anyway the guns to beat in revolver class were the big Dan Wessons and some of the Freedom Arms type high-end single actions. The N-Frame smiths were often very accurate but had a reputation for weakness in the face of thousands of full-house loads. Some at least did very well with them. Super Blackhawks like mine were stout but accuracy was kinda iffy - some of them shot VERY well but many of them suffered from issues like thread choking of the barrel and were no more accurate than you'd expect.
<
Remember these results were obtained with exceptional specimens of revolvers in the hands of incredibly dedicated and skilled shooters. These were very intelligent and determined competitors who would spend time and money far beyond what most would consider reasonable to gain that last bit of performance. Load development and gun selection were the keys to winning - and these guys were determined to win. I wouldn't claim that just any old guy with any old load in any old gun could achieve these results - but when the stars aligned it could be done and WAS done.
<
I was there - I saw.
<
Uncle R.

[dtknowles]

Tim:
Were they shooting revolvers? Yes - sometimes. It depends on the class. Revolvers in revolver class - single shots like contenders in production class - XPs and similar "hand rifles" in unlimited class. All iron sights. That was what they did back in the 80s - I'm not familiar with the classes and rules these days. I've fallen way out of the IHMSA competition world as MY world got taken up with mortgage and kids and schools and scouts and all of the things that trying to be "Ward Cleaver" entail.
<
Not all revolvers could deliver these results but at least some of them were unbelievably accurate. In those days anyway the guns to beat in revolver class were the big Dan Wessons and some of the Freedom Arms type high-end single actions. The N-Frame smiths were often very accurate but had a reputation for weakness in the face of thousands of full-house loads. Some at least did very well with them. Super Blackhawks like mine were stout but accuracy was kinda iffy - some of them shot VERY well but many of them suffered from issues like thread choking of the barrel and were no more accurate than you'd expect.
<
Remember these results were obtained with exceptional specimens of revolvers in the hands of incredibly dedicated and skilled shooters. These were very intelligent and determined competitors who would spend time and money far beyond what most would consider reasonable to gain that last bit of performance. Load development and gun selection were the keys to winning - and these guys were determined to win. I wouldn't claim that just any old guy with any old load in any old gun could achieve these results - but when the stars aligned it could be done and WAS done.
<
I was there - I saw.
<
Uncle R.

I meant the shoot-offs with multiple sets of chickens at 200 m.

Tim

[Uncle R.]

I meant the shoot-offs with multiple sets of chickens at 200 m.

Tim

Yes - at the state championship level.

[NSB]

I meant the shoot-offs with multiple sets of chickens at 200 m.

Tim

The answer to that specific question is NO. I've seen it done with the unlimited guns and a couple of times with Production Single Shots. The revolvers just didn't shoot in the same league as the unlimited guns. I shot silhouette for over ten years and attended the Internationals when they had 600+ shooters there. I attended several Regional matches also with one hundred to two hundred shooters. It just didn't happen with revolvers......multiple banks of chickens at 200m. Just didn't happen.

[Uncle R.]

The answer to that specific question is NO. I've seen it done with the unlimited guns and a couple of times with Production Single Shots. The revolvers just didn't shoot in the same league as the unlimited guns. I shot silhouette for over ten years and attended the Internationals when they had 600+ shooters there. I attended several Regional matches also with one hundred to two hundred shooters. It just didn't happen with revolvers......multiple banks of chickens at 200m. Just didn't happen.

I will stand corrected.
I've been thinking about that answer since I posted it and begun to doubt my own recollection.
It was long ago and memory is a fickle thing. Multiple banks of chickens at 200? Undoubtedly. Chickens at 200 with revolvers? Undoubtedly. Multiple banks of chickens at 200 with revolvers?
I think I was wrong and I may be remembering shootoffs with single shots. I reflect they didn't get revolver 40s until well into the 80s although once they started they came pretty fast and furious.

Nevertheless - the best of the revolvers DID deliver groups in the 2 MOA range often and I'll still maintain that top-level revolvers with top-level shooters behind them can do things that appear unbelievable.

Uncle R.

[gray wolf]

It can be done, and it can be done over and over, not once for a wallet picture.
Can even be done in my 70 year old day's, 73 now and I wouldn't give it a nod to do it again.

For me it takes concentration of the highest magnitude along with a good two bag rest,
Not to forget extensive load work.

Once the load and pistol are working it's up to the shooter to work, Don't go to the range with a lot on your mind, going for the gold takes a clear head.

This season I need to do better and take some new Pics.
That's the way I try to think.

:drinks:



126366

[dtknowles]

It can be done, and it can be done over and over, not once for a wallet picture.
Can even be done in my 70 year old day's, 73 now and I wouldn't give it a nod to do it again.

For me it takes concentration of the highest magnitude along with a good two bag rest,
Not to forget extensive load work.

Once the load and pistol are working it's up to the shooter to work, Don't go to the range with a lot on your mind, going for the gold takes a clear head.

This season I need to do better and take some new Pics.
That's the way I try to think.

:drinks:



126366

Let me guess, one inch and under groups at 50 yards bench rested two bags with iron sights using a stock Ruger or S&W revolver. If it is a twenty two I would guess the groups are more like a half that, just guessing it was not a .22.


Tim

[tazman]

At 12.5 grains of HS6, I don't think it was a 22.

[dtknowles]

At 12.5 grains of HS6, I don't think it was a 22.

How did you make the target legible.

Tim

[Artful]

Save the picture then open in your software and enlarge it - actually the 9.4 grains of Unique looks like a better group.

[Lonegun1894]

For those who call BS as hitting a target that appears narrower than the front sight, have you tried it? Do you have the eye sight and the trigger time to try it yourself? Here is what I would suggest, since this discussion started with a 25yd range being used. Take several plates, pieces of notebook paper, whatever, and draw a 1" square on the first, a 1/2" on the second, a 1/4" on the third, 1/8" on the 4th, 1/16" on the 5th. Put em all up at 25 yds, and see if any of them are the same width as your front sight when you aim the pistol. Fire a few shots and check your group. Now go on down the line til you get to the smallest target you can still see. Lets say it's the 1/4" square. That will be smaller than most front sights nowadays. Take really careful aim, with the square being dead center of the front sight when you aim at it. Now I said DEAD CENTER, not kinda close. Is your group still centered on the target, or is it off to one side o the other? If it is off, you aren't perfectly sighted in, so lets correct that, and then get back to practicing PROPERLY. Once you have shrunk your groups at 25, or even 5 yds, or whatever range you selected to do this test, and are confident you can do this on demand, move the target back.

Please bear with me when I say the following, cause it won't be exact measurements, but close enough to give the idea of what I am getting at:
When I was taught to shoot rifles with mil-dot scopes, part of the training was to be able to separate the space between mil-dots into increments that I can use as aiming points. A mil-dot itself is about 1" at 100 yds, and the space from the top of one mil-dot to the top of the next dot above it is about 3.6" at 100 yds. The same spacing is used for the horizontal as the vertical wires. So 3.6"@100, means 7.2"@200, and so on. If I give you a rifle and tell you it is sighted in to be dead on at 100, and the drop for this specific rifle/load combination is 3.6" below POA at 200, and ask you to hit a golf ball at 200, you have to use the space between mil-dots as your aim point, but you are easily able to do it because splitting it in half is easy to do. We were expected to be able to split that space between dots in 1/10ths. The same exact thing can be done with iron sights. It is just a matter of eye sight, trigger control, hold, and practice. Proper training and practice allows you to do things that people who have not been taught properly and have not put in the time to learn little tricks like this will never believe possible. Keep in mind that the name of the game, regardless if we are talking rifles, handguns, shotguns, archery, or any other pursuit where we launch a projectile at a target and want accuracy, is CONSISTENCY. Same gun, same load, same hold, same POA, same everything, gives you some tiny groups, regardless if you want that tiny group at 25yds with your handgun, 50 yds with your bow, or 1,000 yds with a rifle. Any inconsistency shows up on the target, the question is, do you have the experience to figure out, and be honest enough with yourself, to narrow down where the problem is and fix it. Is your gun capable, or is it a bad one? If the gun is good, how's the load? If the gun and load are both good, and your friends shoot 1" groups with your gun at 25yds, and the best you can do is 8", well, you know where the problem is. At the same time, say you have two 1911s, and one does 1" while the other does 6", with you doing the shooting for both groups, you know the problem isn't you, so it is either the gun or the load. Get the idea yet?

And as to all the calls of BS on this thread, well, I'm an ok shooter, but nothing special. I have seen shooters who I wasn't sure if I should laugh or cry when they showed me their idea of a "tight group", and I have no doubt that I could outshoot them without trying on that day. The last one of these was a (25-30yo?) guy who declared himself a sniper after shooting a 16" (measured) "group" at 10 yards with his Glock pistol, saying that no one can possibly do any better than that with any handgun out there. How he managed it with a straight face, I don't know, but he was serious. I have also seen shooters who make me look like a first time shooter. It has taught me that there are people out there that I can outshoot easily, but also others who can outshoot me. Just because I can do something, doesn't mean everyone can, but the opposite is also true. Just because I am not a good enough shot to do something, just means I cant do something, it does NOT mean that no one can.

So while some guys are talking trash and throwing the BS flag around, I will try to help the ones I can outperform and who will listen, and try to learn from the ones who are better than me. I have met both types in person, and here also. Either way, we are here to help each other and learn from each other, not argue when someone outshoots us. Or maybe that's just me and a few others.

[Bucking the Tiger]

Lonegun1894, I found your comment very insightful and full of truth! Well written too!
It is all in our perception( "head") in the end. Pushing our limits is tough, but makes us better for it. I find frustration and then elation when I push mine. I get better and find that I have so much more to learn.

[44MAG#1]

Now that there are 110 posts on this topic what have the participants learned if put in a short, to the point post.
Has anyone learned anything at all or was this an exercise in just making a post on a thread that was posted?

[NSB]

As my parents told me when I was young, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".
Also, PT Barnum said, "there's one born every minute".
I have to stop right here.

[44MAG#1]

"As my parents told me when I was young, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".

Show me where I said anything that wasn't nice."

"There's one born every minute."

You sure have that correct. No argument from me on that.
I was just alluding to the fact I knew where this topic would go from the start.
some can do it, some can't, some are somewhere in between and some don't have a clue.

[45 2.1]

"As my parents told me when I was young, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".

Show me where I said anything that wasn't nice."

"There's one born every minute."

You sure have that correct. No argument from me on that.
I was just alluding to the fact I knew where this topic would go from the start.
some can do it, some can't, some are somewhere in between and some don't have a clue.

The last five words speak volumes.............................

[fatelk]

What was the subject at hand again?

The mechanical accuracy potential of the average revolver?
The reasonable accuracy potential of the average guy who only gets to the range once in a while?
The accuracy potential of a world-class marksman with the average revolver?
OR, the accuracy potential of said marksman with world-class equipment?

Not trying to sound like a jerk, and I apologize if I'm butting in to a discussion that's way over my head, but I am curious.

[jmort]

"What was the subject at hand again?
The mechanical accuracy potential of the average revolver?
The reasonable accuracy potential of the average guy who only gets to the range once in a while?"

Yes, yes, and yes, but there has been obvious thread drift. Nothing wrong with thread drift.

[tazman]

Sometimes you get your best insights and information in thread drift.

[fatelk]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply there was. I've certainly been guilty of some thread drift myself. :)

I've just been a little confused sometimes about what is being called bs, what is being defended, and if some folks are talking apples and oranges.

I don't have strong opinions one way or the other, and frankly am learning a lot from you all. I'm seriously impressed with some of the marksmanship you guy display.

One musing I had in regards to accuracy potential of a revolver, is that there is a world of difference between 2moa and 1moa, kind of like the difference between a car that will do 140mph and one that will do 180mph; big difference. Not trying to challenge anyone or say it can't happen; just wondering.

[Whiterabbit]

One musing I had in regards to accuracy potential of a revolver, is that there is a world of difference between 2moa and 1moa, kind of like the difference between a car that will do 140mph and one that will do 180mph; big difference. Not trying to challenge anyone or say it can't happen; just wondering.

As an average amateur revolver shooter, I've noticed this too and something else also. There seems to be a BIG difference between 50 and 100 yards. That is to say, 2" at 50 yards (which is not too hard with a BFR on sandbags since heck the factory guarantees it as possible) does NOT (for me) translate into 4" at 100 yards. It's always way more. 6-8" on a good day. (and this is with a red dot)

Maybe with enough practice. But I suspect not.

I actually notice the same thing with "bad loads" at shorter distances. I have a bizzaro hot load that doesn't like the twist in my gun. Barely pie plate at 25 yards, missing paper at 50, that kind of thing. But the boolits will stack at 15 yards and I have no idea why. Useless load for me otherwise, I don't typically shoot 15 yards. That one really has me scratching my head.

[NSB]

"As my parents told me when I was young, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".

Show me where I said anything that wasn't nice."

"There's one born every minute."

You sure have that correct. No argument from me on that.
I was just alluding to the fact I knew where this topic would go from the start.
some can do it, some can't, some are somewhere in between and some don't have a clue.

44mag, you didn't say anything that wasn't nice. I was referring to myself. I apologize for even insinuating (if taken that way) that I was referring to you. You've been very polite. Here's where I'm coming from on this whole subject:
I once performed a fantastic feat of marksmanship in front of about a hundred people at a very large handgun match. I shot 9x10 shoot off chickens using a Browning Buckmark handgun with open sights at 100yds. They were using NRA rifle chickens which are about 2.25" high. The actual target area on these chickens is about 1.5". I missed the first chicken and couldn't even adjust my sight fine enough at that distance to compensate. I turned my Merit aperture a "tweek" to make the target a little more blurry and this allowed me to move my POI about a half inch. I ended up running the next nine targets in a row. I got a big write-up in the Silhouette magazine about this since it was at a regional shoot. I've never heard of anyone doing this before or since. Here's the thing. I could tell everyone I do it all the time. There were enough people there to have some believe it. They saw it with their own eyes and it was under match pressure. The truth of the matter is that I probably couldn't do it again if I tried it another hundred times. I also shot three guns at that match with 60x60 scores. I once shot a 77x80 with a Ruger Single Six revolver at the Internationals. The next Ruger on the high to low list was seventeen places further down the list.I could plain flat out shoot like you can't believe. I did about as well with centerfire when I shot it. I can't even come close to the claims you're making. The guns simply won't do it. Especially out of the box guns. Can anything happen once? Of course it can. But it doesn't keep happening, and it doesn't happen on demand. I've had shooters tell me this stuff in the past and had it come down to betting money on it. They never showed up to take the bet. Call me a doubting Thomas. I just don't see it happening on demand or on a consistent basis. Sorry.

[Lonegun1894]

What was the subject at hand again?

The mechanical accuracy potential of the average revolver?
The reasonable accuracy potential of the average guy who only gets to the range once in a while?
The accuracy potential of a world-class marksman with the average revolver?
OR, the accuracy potential of said marksman with world-class equipment?

Not trying to sound like a jerk, and I apologize if I'm butting in to a discussion that's way over my head, but I am curious.


You have a point, but here is my thought on that. How many of us have just one gun? If you have more than one, then one of the two ( or more) will be better than the other. I have a small collection, and some are better than others, but that goes for all of us. Lets say I stick with just Ruger, just because I don't have any other revolvers any more. Lets say I have ten of them, which I don't, but how can I honestly claim to have any real idea of what an "average" Ruger is capable of, when I have ten specimens out of however many millions that Ruger has sold in the decades that they have been cranking them out? I can tell you what my samples are capable of, and I can assume that they are average, but for all I know, I have the absolute best samples they have made, or I may have the stuff that never should have left the factory, but either way, that is an assumption, and we all know what happens when we "assume" something. For what it's worth, I practice with my firearms every chance I get to head to the range. The days I can't, I practice in my backyard with both pellet rifles and pellet pistols. Trigger control and sight alignment is the same regardless, so it all helps. So since we all have access to a pellet pistol, I don't accept the not having a chance to practice excuse. At different times in my life, I have practiced in my bedroom, my living room, my back yard, at various shooting ranges, etc. It all helps. The trajectories may be different, and recoil and noise are different, but it is the trigger control, sight alignment, and the other fine details that make the difference between below average, average, and a top shooter.

[Thumbcocker]

Now that there are 110 posts on this topic what have the participants learned if put in a short, to the point post.
Has anyone learned anything at all or was this an exercise in just making a post on a thread that was posted?


I think that I have learned from this thread. Probably just enough to be dangerous. Folks whose opinions I trust state that things are possible with revolvers and good loads. I have seen 45 2.1 shoot and the things that .44 man suggested in some of his prior posts helped me shoot better. To clarify I am not in the same league as either of these guys but knowing what is possible helps me try to get better. I have never fired a round in competition or ever had the benefit of any formal coaching so anything I can get that helps be shoot handguns better is pure gold. hearing from them that has been there and done that, whether they agree with each other or not, is always educational for me.

[gray wolf]

Yesterday, 11:04 PM #105 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?264409-Revolver-Accuracy-Perspection-perception-and-reality&p=3078363&viewfull=1#post3078363)
dtknowles (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?12523-dtknowles)
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http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by gray wolf http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3078258#post3078258)
It can be done, and it can be done over and over, not once for a wallet picture.
Can even be done in my 70 year old day's, 73 now and I wouldn't give it a nod to do it again.

For me it takes concentration of the highest magnitude along with a good two bag rest,
Not to forget extensive load work.

Once the load and pistol are working it's up to the shooter to work, Don't go to the range with a lot on your mind, going for the gold takes a clear head.

This season I need to do better and take some new Pics.
That's the way I try to think.

:drinks:



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126366&d=1403158886&thumb=1 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126366&d=1420426215)



Let me guess, one inch and under groups at 50 yards bench rested two bags with iron sights using a stock Ruger or S&W revolver. If it is a twenty two I would guess the groups are more like a half that, just guessing it was not a .22.


Tim

Tim you never cease to continue to bug me about my shooting, if perhaps you get better than you wont keep questioning me. Do those look like 22 holes ? really!! now.

The targets were at 25 yards, just like it is written on them. Come and visit and we can go shooting.
Fact is, everyone is welcome.

No offense Tim but you do anoy me just a tad. But not that much I have seen you in action before so I just dust it off.

[fatelk]

Lonegun, I think I see your point. It's also not really relevant to me whether any given revolver is actually capable of 2"@25yds or .2"@1,000yds, either one is better than I can shoot. Knowing the gun is capable of more than I am gives me something to aspire to. Thumbcocker, I think you and I are in much the same boat.

Realistically if I can practice to the point where I can consistently keep them inside maybe 3"@25yds, I'll be happy. I know a lot of you all are phenomenally better than that, but for me that will be a good goal. I'm sure I could do better with more dedication and practice, but for me at this time other priorities prohibit that.

For everything I've learned from this thread, thank you to all involved. It has been an interesting and useful thread.

Gray Wolf, impressive shooting! Heck, I wish I wasn't on the opposite side of the country; I'd come shoot with you. I might learn something but I think I'd just embarrass myself. On a good day I might shoot like that at 10 yards.

[fatelk]

As to expectations; I took a guy shooting a few years ago. He hadn't shot a pistol before, but with a little coaching he was able to hit the 8.5x11" target stapled to the large cardboard box maybe 30 feet away. Most of the time at least. He was happy with that, but then it was my turn and I wanted to show him that better was possible so I walked up and set up a half dozen spent 12 gauge hulls on top of the box.

He asks what are those for? I told him I was going to shoot them off. He says no way, they're too small, nobody could hit those.

Of course I did, but is this how some of you serious marksmen feel when us amateurs talk about our 4" 25yd groups?[smilie=s:

[Bignutt]

I also learned from this. That reading through pages like this there is always something to be learned. I have tried some of the best sounding ideas only to have them not work FOR ME and some of the dumbest sounding only to pick something up out of it. The point I think is to try it you never know what will happen. Maybe sometime I can shoot some of these groups that get everybody riled up.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I'm feeling a little better about myself now. No, I'll never play basketball like Michael Jordan, golf like Tiger Woods, or Drive like Mario Andretti, but I'd be happy to be able to practice to a point where I could shoot 2" groups on demand with any pistol or revolver. I just don't shoot enough. 100 rounds per day? 100 rounds in any given week would be a lot of range time for me.

I am interested in reading about loading tips or shooting techniques for exceptional accuracy, but at this point I know that I am definitely the weak link. I'm quite happy when I can get a 3" group at 25 yards. That's a good day for me. I'm seriously impressed when I see targets like some mentioned or posted earlier, but for me it's a bit like watching the aforementioned professional athletes; neat to know that it can be done, but not something I fantasize about being able to do myself. :)

Let me stop you right there and give you some words of encouragement. We ALL started off mediocre, at best. Well, except those rare few people who are gifted by God with natural inbred shooting skill/ability, but most of us have worked for it.

I first shot at 6 yrs old, when my dad let me shoot his H&R 9-shot top break revolver with a horrible SA trigger pull. I was given my first pistol at age 10, a 22 Colt conversion on a military 1911 frame. I started really shooting at age 16 when my best friend's dad became my mentor. He was an old competition shooter, cop, FFL dealer, and all around dangerously fun guy. That Summer, I told him I wanted to become a shooter. We started with rifle and shotgun, and over the years I kept up with them, but what I really wanted to be good at was handgun. I lived with him for a month (did I mention he lived in the country and had a couple acre shooting range out his back door?).

He had me bring out 22 ammo and my 1911 conversion. He had me shoot a couple hundred rounds a day, 7 days a week. After a couple weeks, he brought out a Ruger single six and had me do the same with it. The week after that he unscrewed the front sight and brought out a couple cases of clays and told me I had to shoot only from the hip. A week later, he switched me to his Colt Officers Model 38 DA, and I was shooting 100rds a day (and reloading them at night) with that while still using both 22s and occasionally hooting the rifle and shotgun. With my dad's permission, he let me order a Browning High-Power, and when it came in, 9mm was added to the routine, along with learning to cast bullets for my center fire reloading. I snuck the original 45 slide and barrel that came on my 1911 frame and added 45 to my shooting. By the end of that summer, I was about as good a shot as my best friend (the mentor's son).

My senior year, shooting became a routine of dropping off the books after school Friday night, grabbing a change of clothes, ammo, and my guns, and meeting up with a couple other friends at the pizza stand to get 2 take-outs and head to the country (mentor's house). We would watch a movie (Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, or science fiction usually), talk about what we were going to shoot Sat & Sun, and retire to the basement for a casting/reloading session until midnight or later. Saturday and Sunday were then spent shooting everything we'd loaded the night before. Late Sunday night, I'd return home and Monday-Thursday nights were spent reading gun magazines, especially Guns&Ammo (Elmer Keith) and Shooting Times (Skeeter Skelton & Bill Jordan).

The bottom line is, as others have already stated, you can become a pretty good pistol shot, just by making the commitment to practice sufficiently. It does not (and I'd say should not) be practice with any heavy recoiling gun. The 22 is ideal, because recoil is so meaningless you can focus on the fundamentals, you aren't distracted/spending time picking up empties, it's cheap, and it comes in every format of handgun.

[dtknowles]

Yesterday, 11:04 PM #105 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?264409-Revolver-Accuracy-Perspection-perception-and-reality&p=3078363&viewfull=1#post3078363)
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http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by gray wolf http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3078258#post3078258)
It can be done, and it can be done over and over, not once for a wallet picture.
Can even be done in my 70 year old day's, 73 now and I wouldn't give it a nod to do it again.

For me it takes concentration of the highest magnitude along with a good two bag rest,
Not to forget extensive load work.

Once the load and pistol are working it's up to the shooter to work, Don't go to the range with a lot on your mind, going for the gold takes a clear head.

This season I need to do better and take some new Pics.
That's the way I try to think.

:drinks:



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126366&d=1403158886&thumb=1 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126366&d=1420426215)



Let me guess, one inch and under groups at 50 yards bench rested two bags with iron sights using a stock Ruger or S&W revolver. If it is a twenty two I would guess the groups are more like a half that, just guessing it was not a .22.


Tim

Tim you never cease to continue to bug me about my shooting, if perhaps you get better than you wont keep questioning me. Do those look like 22 holes ? really!! now.

The targets were at 25 yards, just like it is written on them. Come and visit and we can go shooting.
Fact is, everyone is welcome.

No offense Tim but you do anoy me just a tad. But not that much I have seen you in action before so I just dust it off.





I agree it is good shooting but I was trying to relate your statement "It can be done" to the discussion. I don't think anyone was claiming 4 MOA was impossible specially at 25 yards. You still have not indicated what the gun and if it was iron sights. I am sorry I could not read the writing on the targets and I did not think it was a .22 but could not be sure. Nothing on the targets indicated the scale of the picture. I can shoot one inch an less at 25 yards with my Ruger MKII and I have come close with my Dan Wesson 32-20. I have not shot a box of shells with a pistol for a few months so I might be out of practice. I have been focusing on cast bullets from rifles for the last couple years. I did break out the SuperMag last summer for fun not really practice. I hit the 8 inch gong at 100 yards 3 out of 5 shots, one bag, iron sights. That was with loads that were shooting right around 2 inches at 25 yards. These were with bullets I cast and a middle of the road charge of H110, with more time I could maybe tailor the ammo to get more accuracy. I did no load development yet for .357 max. as when I got the gun brass was almost no existent and I had been shooting .357 mags. in it when I shot it. When I was able to get some brass, I was involved in other projects so I put together some ammo just to have some .357 Max. to shoot. I am not a bad pistol shot and I have some good equipment but don't doubt that you might be a better pistol shot than I am.

Tim

[Lonegun1894]

I would ask everyone, especially those who have made comments about being mediocre, or lesser shots than some others, to keep trying and have fun. I mean, no one here has yet said that they are a professional competitive shooter, as in, making a living at it. So we are all here and all shooting because we like it. Keep having fun, and you will keep improving. Here is my thing. I don't care if you currently shoot 1/2" 25yd groups, or 6" 25yd groups, if you stick with it, you WILL improve. Lets say you get 6"@25yds today. And next week, or next month, you are down to 5 3/4", you improved! Keep working at it, without making it a "job" and make sure you don't get discouraged or burned out.

As per fatelk: "It's also not really relevant to me whether any given revolver is actually capable of 2"@25yds or .2"@1,000yds, either one is better than I can shoot. Knowing the gun is capable of more than I am gives me something to aspire to."

THAT is exactly it! It depends on your needs and wants. To me, I have always been driven by trying to prove people wrong who kept telling me to quit because something "can't be done". Realistically, most of my shooting is on paper, with some hunting thrown in, but the hunting and defensive use are the end goals for me. When I am going after a hog or deer, I get a target area that is 6-8" big. I can keep my shots in that within any reasonable range that I intend to hunt at, but I like pushing my limits. I also keep in mind that there is a difference between wants and needs. For hog hunting, I NEED to be able to hit a 6" vital zone at say 50 yds (mostly because I try to sneak in as close as possible instead of shooting at the longest possible range), but I WANT to shoot a much smaller group. As long as my group is small enough, I am happy, but everything I do to get a smaller group is just a bonus. I figure we all need to set a minimum goal, and be happy with it, but strive to beat it at the same time. Keep tightening the standard group you accept. And this doesn't have to be the same standard for all guns by any means. Last week, I shot a 3/4"@50yds with my scoped .357 Mag Contender, 1.75"@50yds with my Ruger 7.5" BH .45 Colt, and 4"@50 with my Ruger 2 1/4" SP101 .357 Mag. I am happy with all these groups, and any of them is plenty good enough to take a deer or hog at 50 yds, but I also want to improve all of them. The best I have done with the SP101 at 50 yds is 1.25", ONE TIME, but that is not a realistic expectation for me. My usual groups with that gun are 4-6"@50yds. I'd be disappointed with that with the Contender, but the SP101 isn't carried for the same purpose, so I don't hold it to the same standards. As long as your chosen weapon does what your intent for it was, it is good enough, but I still try to improve. WE all hit spots where we get a bit stagnant and just get stuck in a rut for a while, but work through them, and don't allow yourself to settle for it and you will get back out of that rut and start improving again. Some times it will be improvements that you won't believe and impress yourself with, other times it may be 1/16", but it is ALL improvement, so keep having fun and stick with it. Make sure you can always meet your needs first, but also make sure your wanted accuracy level always exceeds your needed accuracy level. YOU are your own toughest competition, and also your only true competition.

[dubber123]

Good advice to keep trying to do better. Don't ever be happy with just so-so. Don't make yourself mental, and don't take the fun out of shooting.

My first "good" handgun was a S&W 4" tapered barrel model 10-5. I shot several of my early handloads, and every factory round I could scrounge as a 15 year old. It shot no better than 6" at 25 yds. from a solid rest. I was very disappointed. I almost sold or traded it off many times. For some reason, I kept it, and kept shooting it. Lo and behold, groups shrunk, and my poor shooting revolver was a sub 1" at 25 yd. gun. I squirrel hunted with it for 2 years, and one didn't want to poke his head out at 50 yds.

How much shooting did it take? I don't know. I do know at my peak, I fired very close to 35,000 rounds through that 1 revolver, in 1 year. Do I think you need to shoot that much to be "good"? I don't know, I guess it depends on your skill and natural ability. I know I don't shoot enough now, and it shows.

I believe most good revolvers are capable of much better accuracy than given credit for, and some minor tweaks to them can reap major benefits. 44mans comments about loading techniques making a huge difference should be noted, as I think he is really on to something. My loading habits are probably way too lax to see the most from my guns. I may stop and visit him some time soon to pick his brain.

I'm no longer 15, I have crappy, scratched up plastic lensed eyeglasses, (always have), but I can still pull off enough sub 1" 25 yd. groups to show me it's not the guns, it's me. Keep shooting, and try different things. Grip consistency is HUGE. If your gun has a crappy trigger, FIX IT. If the barrel is rough, or has a choke point, FIX IT. If the throats are under size, FIX IT. None are expensive, none are hard, and all can cut group size by 1/2. Keep shooting.

[paul h]

All I can relay is personal experience. I've never shot competitively, but have shot quite a bit and my shooting buddy used to compete in IMSA and is still a very good shot with a handgun.

The original question was in regards to 1 1/2 - 2" groups at 25 yds being mediocre accuracy from a revolver. Both of us got some of the first Ruger srh 480's off the production line, topped them with simmons gold medal 2.5-7 scopes and as we were both tinkerers and there was little load data available we did a lot of load work and tested a good dozen cast bullet desings from 310 gr to 460 gr.

What we found with those guns, from a rest, at 50 yds is that once we found the load the gun liked we could put 5 shots into 1", repeatedly. Once I was done with my load work, I pulled the scope as I prefer to pack an iron sighted gun and found my 50 yd groups were 2". I have no doubt if I'd replaced the factory red insert sight with a good patridge blade, found an ideal target to hold rock steady and with practice I could get my iron sighted groups close to 1".

Conversely I had a 4 5/8" blackhawk 357 that with extensive load work and cast bullets from 125-200 gr would group 3" to 5" at 25 yds. It did suffer the dreaded barrel choke so I taylor throated the barrel and now with a scope from the bench it'll shoot most loads to 2" at 25 yds, and some loads approach 1".

With all that background my personal thoughts are I'm not happy with a revolver that will shoot worse than 2" at 25 yds, and I consider 1 1/2" reasonable 25 yd accuracy. I wish all my revolvers would group 1" at 25 yds but that's not a realistic expectation. I wouldn't be surprised to find a revolver that will group 1" at 50 yds as I have one.

It all comes down to your needs and expectations. If you need a highly accurate revolver, then you'll go about buying or having one built. You certainly can't shoot any better than the mechanical abilities of the gun and that's the rub of having the tools to improve your skills and then going about improving your skills.

If you really want to improve your skills, get a competition air pistol, set up a 10m range and practice until you can shoot one hole groups. You might just find with some practice that handguns are much more capable of than you thought. You might also find that some peoples claims are a bit beyond belief.

[Tar Heel]

Handguns are accurate. Shooting handguns accurately takes practice to develop the smoothness required. Shooting large bore handguns accurately takes extreme mental discipline on top of all the practice mentioned above. Want to see what a black powder handgun can do offhand, one handed hold, at 15 yards? It is a Uberti 1851 Navy w/23gr Pyrodex-P charge, homemade lubricated over-powder wads, and a cast RB. Watch the bottom point for the ball impact. The impacts near the center are the wads hitting, sticking to, and getting bounced off the target.

http://youtu.be/Au_AUZiZlrk

This is the handgun I routinely win bets with at 100 yards. You have heard of the famous 100 yard shot taken during the civil war? It is easier than you think if you practice and know your equipment. I hit the 10" gong at 100 yards routinely with this rascal. I miss some too, but mostly hit it with the first shot.


http://youtu.be/1soPqZ7DC2k

[robertbank]

Sometimes you get your best insights and information in thread drift.

Canada 5
Russia 4

Canada wins Gold in World Junior Hockey Tournament

The USA finishes out of the medals again due in part to stupid internal politics with Hockey USA. They leave some of their best players off the team because the young lads feel they are better off learning the game in the Canadian Major Junior Hockey leagues.

At some pint we just have to discuss an important event.

[Tar Heel]

Weren't we supposed to be discussing the accuracy potential of OPEN SIGHTS? I think this picture was made using a scope, at least that's what the image is named. (target pics from new scope.jpg)

126543

[Tar Heel]

Canada wins Gold in World Junior Hockey Tournament


The only game where they play 3 of the requisite quarters. :bigsmyl2:

[tazman]

Weren't we supposed to be discussing the accuracy potential of OPEN SIGHTS? I think this picture was made using a scope, at least that's what the image is named. (target pics from new scope.jpg)

126543

Thread drift.

How you going to find out just how good the gun is unless you use the best system you can to find out?
After that it is all up for grabs.

[robertbank]

Weren't we supposed to be discussing the accuracy potential of OPEN SIGHTS? I think this picture was made using a scope, at least that's what the image is named. (target pics from new scope.jpg)

126543

Opps.

Bob

[Tar Heel]

Jeez....yoose guys....

[Hickok]

I am satisfied, and thanks for all the answers and useful information.

My goal is 2" groups and under @25 consistently, benched with iron sights. When this is met, with handgun, load, and myself I move on to the next step.

I practice field positions, at differing range, differing shooting scenarios, various weather and light conditions, etc, all geared to promote better shooting and build confidence in hunting conditions.

I enjoy reactive type targets, clay pigeons, water filled milk jugs, etc, set anywhere from about 30 yards out to a max of 100 yards.

MY sights are usually set for a dead-on 50 yard zero.

Just what works for me.

[dubber123]

I am satisfied, and thanks for all the answers and useful information.

My goal is 2" groups and under @25 consistently, benched with iron sights. When this is met, with handgun, load, and myself I move on to the next step.

I practice field positions, at differing range, differing shooting scenarios, various weather and light conditions, etc, all geared to promote better shooting and build confidence in hunting conditions.

I enjoy reactive type targets, clay pigeons, water filled milk jugs, etc, set anywhere from about 30 yards out to a max of 100 yards.

MY sights are usually set for a dead-on 50 yard zero.

Just what works for me.

If you haven't tried it yet, try sitting with your back braced against something, and shoot with your wrists/arms resting between your knees. I believe Elmer Keith preferred this for long range shooting, and have seen Brian Pearce use it for some of his articles. I can almost equal my bench rested groups this way.

If you have a good gun/load combo, you'll hit your 2" at 25 yard goal without too much issue. Grip consistency is my, and I suspect many other shooters biggest hurdle. Once you get consistent, 50 yards is your next step, the same principles apply, but you'll really start to see where loads matter. I have made a lot of loads that seem great at 25, but are falling apart at 50.

[ole 5 hole group]

Shoot however you want but just keep in mind the cylinder gap. At a very young age I found out what it does to a pant leg and skin - some learn young, some learn old, some don't learn at all while others learn from reading and not experiencing any pain.


Leather is a very useful item close to a cylinder gap.:smile:

[Whiterabbit]

Shoot however you want but just keep in mind the cylinder gap. At a very young age I found out what it does to a pant leg and skin - some learn young, some learn old, some don't learn at all while others learn from reading and not experiencing any pain.


Leather is a very useful item close to a cylinder gap.:smile:

Ouch.

I thought it would be stable to rest the butt of my 460S&W BFR on my kneecap while sitting on the ground for long range stability. Did it once.



...Won't do that again.

[Bignutt]

You mean I'm not the only one with a hole in his pantleg??? I thought it was a good idea to rest my 454 off my leg while trying to figure out how to shoot 'creedmoor' style. All I learned was Levis aren't made of leather and I didn't know what I was doing!!

[Hickok]

Shoot however you want but just keep in mind the cylinder gap. At a very young age I found out what it does to a pant leg and skin - some learn young, some learn old, some don't learn at all while others learn from reading and not experiencing any pain.


Leather is a very useful item close to a cylinder gap.:smile: Did that years ago with a Smith .357 magnum. Had the revolver resting nice and tight against one knee while sitting. Yep, it cuts right through pants legs and eats skin.!

[dubber123]

Did that years ago with a Smith .357 magnum. Had the revolver resting nice and tight against one knee while sitting. Yep, it cuts right through pants legs and eats skin.!

I guess I'm lucky, or something.. :) I shoot my 4-3/4" .475 Linebaugh with 50,000+ Psi. loads that way and haven't so much as scorched my knickers yet. Maybe next time..

[ole 5 hole group]

I hope that day never comes dubber 123, as a 475L cylinder gap will tear hell out of anything close, except good leather. Had an acquaintance that wanted to shoot one of my 475L's but he wanted to used his "special" set-up bags - one shot and that $90 bag was history. I advised him to shoot off-hand or use my bag but he did it his way and I still grin about it every now & then.


I know you know what you're doing but some never give that little item (cylinder gap) any thought and when trying different shooting positions they learn real quick about heat & pressure if the front of the cylinder isn't clear. I've seen some nasty finger/palm/hand pictures posted that were too close to that gap once the 500 S&W came on line and sold to the public. That is a hard way to learn, but an effective way I guess???

[dubber123]

I hope that day never comes dubber 123, as a 475L cylinder gap will tear hell out of anything close, except good leather. Had an acquaintance that wanted to shoot one of my 475L's but he wanted to used his "special" set-up bags - one shot and that $90 bag was history. I advised him to shoot off-hand or use my bag but he did it his way and I still grin about it every now & then.


I know you know what you're doing but some never give that little item (cylinder gap) any thought and when trying different shooting positions they learn real quick about heat & pressure if the front of the cylinder isn't clear. I've seen some nasty finger/palm/hand pictures posted that were too close to that gap once the 500 S&W came on line and sold to the public. That is a hard way to learn, but an effective way I guess???

You are surely correct. I assume most shooters know to stay away from the gap, but in truth, most probably don't. I've wrecked enough bags myself to know what that little gap is capable of. In fact my old pistol rest was basically an "L" shaped wooden contraption with a "V" notch for the barrel to rest on. Version 1.0 was all pine. 1 shot from the .475 split the V and blew a piece somewhere, all from the blast from the B/C gap. I made Version 2.0 from some hard wood, and it has survived many rounds now.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If you haven't tried it yet, try sitting with your back braced against something, and shoot with your wrists/arms resting between your knees. I believe Elmer Keith preferred this for long range shooting, and have seen Brian Pearce use it for some of his articles. I can almost equal my bench rested groups this way.

If you have a good gun/load combo, you'll hit your 2" at 25 yard goal without too much issue. Grip consistency is my, and I suspect many other shooters biggest hurdle. Once you get consistent, 50 yards is your next step, the same principles apply, but you'll really start to see where loads matter. I have made a lot of loads that seem great at 25, but are falling apart at 50.


Did that years ago with a Smith .357 magnum. Had the revolver resting nice and tight against one knee while sitting. Yep, it cuts right through pants legs and eats skin.!

Well, I'm glad you all brought this up. I always shot revolver, off hand, while standing. Some days I hit the target better than others. When I first read dubber123's post, I thought to myself, next time I'm at the range and am having a bad day hitting targets, I'm gonna try that.

Now I am well aware of the blast from the cylinder gap ...and always keep my fingers/hand away from it...but I surely wouldn't have thought it'd BITE through denin. Thank's for the heads up !

Besides, this fat man would have a hard enough time getting down to the ground to a sitting position with a loaded gun ...as well as, back up again ...let alone doing that while having the pain of a burn and probably bleeding too :)

[Whiterabbit]

The gap can be pretty wild. I've lit sandbags on fire before.

I remember shooting 460 with a S&W fan at the range, we used to see each other every other weekend or so to shoot. One time we got lanes next to each other (right in front of the RO office/registration desk), so we pulled the vertical barrier between stations for one large shared space and went to town.

The RO's said we brought all activity in the office to a halt for awhile :)

Anyways, that puts our hands at roughly the same spot, and right in the blast path of the cylinders, albeit 2-3 feet away. My buddy was wearing shooting gloves and didnt notice. The back of my right hand looked like a 14 year old boy's face after a few dozen rounds, impact from shed material from his cylinder gap!

Just wild.

(I've also been hit in the face with debris shed from shooting lead fmr the "jacketed" bullet brake on an X-frame. Also wild.)

The gap is no joke.

[Whiterabbit]

Just look at the cylinder fireballs from this picture:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=99992&d=1395251665

No joke indeed.

[44MAG#1]

How many on here DID NOT know that a blaze of fire and crud, to some degree or another, did escape from the flash gap of a revolver?

[tazman]

I remember an older CSI tv episode where the burn from a cylinder gap on a persons hand identified the shooter.

[Char-Gar]

Back to the OP. There is target shooting and there is computer shooting. Outpost75 is talking about target shooting and mirrors my experience down the line.

I am not the best shooter and also far from the worse. At 72, I could shoot better "back in the day", but I can still do plenty good for my enjoyment and purposes.

You just have to take these "computer commandos" with a grain of salt. The world is full of people that feel the need to be better than others, and will say what is necessary to make it so. It is a common malady. Many of them have computers.

[Char-Gar]

Re: Hot gasses from the cylinder gap

I think it was Will Rogers who said; "Some folks learn by reading, some by listening and some by watching. All the rest have to pee on the electric fence."

I had to pee on the electric fence, but once was enough!

[MarkP]

Pressure bbls in revolver calibers are usually vented to account for this. They a EDM a slit.

Have you ever shot or shot next to someone that had a revolver out of time. Feels like horse flies bitting it really stings and burns.

[Airman Basic]

But I seem to remember Elmer shooting in the 'tween the knees position in a pic somewhere. Guess he held the revolver farther out to get past that. This looks safe enough.
126720

[ole 5 hole group]

Re: Hot gasses from the cylinder gap

I think it was Will Rogers who said; "Some folks learn by reading, some by listening and some by watching. All the rest have to pee on the electric fence."

I had to pee on the electric fence, but once was enough!

I did it for a couple of years - you just need to know how to hold it and when to fold it!! as Kenny Rogers would say.:smile: bad timing can be a real pain as you and a couple of my friends know all too well - a weed burner burns weenies.

[DougGuy]

I remember an older CSI tv episode where the burn from a cylinder gap on a persons hand identified the shooter.

That's hollywood for you... Nobody that shoots a wheelgun puts their hand anywhere near the cylinder gap in normal shooting.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

How many on here DID NOT know that a blaze of fire and crud, to some degree or another, did escape from the flash gap of a revolver?


Pressure bbls in revolver calibers are usually vented to account for this. They a EDM a slit.

Have you ever shot or shot next to someone that had a revolver out of time. Feels like horse flies bitting it really stings and burns.
Yeah, I did learn about the Cylinder Gap the hard way...

As a youth, I hunted with my Dad, using a shotgun for birds and Deer (slugs), and "his" 22 rifle for squirrels...we didn't do much target shooting. So I never learned anything about revolvers in my youth. I started target shooting with friends when I was about 20 yrs old.

Sometime in my early twenties I was standing along side someone shooting a 22lr revolver, that had seen better days...All I can say is, Yeah, it was like horsefly bites. I sure got out of the way in a hurry. That's when I learned of the "blaze of fire and crud"

[glockky]

But I seem to remember Elmer shooting in the 'tween the knees position in a pic somewhere. Guess he held the revolver farther out to get past that. This looks safe enough.
126720

This looks like a shooting event I would enjoy participating in.

[dubber123]

This looks like a shooting event I would enjoy participating in.

It does look fun. The elevated muzzle, and helper with a spotting scope makes me believe they aren't shooting 7 yard combat drills. :)

[dtknowles]

One day I was shooting and there weren't many other shooters at the range. There was a guy there with a buddy and an x-frame Smith in 460. The X-frames were new and I had never seen one so I chatted with him for a bit. It turned out we worked at the same factory and had some acquaintances in common. He let me take a few shots and I shot a very nice group (gun was awesome) from an impromptu rest. I thanked him and went back to my shooting. A few minutes later I heard him scream some swear words and I came right over to see what happened. He got his left thumb up by the gap and it was cut very deeply, down to the bone and there was flesh missing and burned. Some rounds are way scarier than others.

Tim

[M-Tecs]

Back to the OP's question. "Maybe my expectations are low" No they are very realistic. Three factures come into play. What is the gun capable of? What is the ammo capable of? What is the shooter capable of? Some guns, ammo and shooters come together to do much better but they are the exception and not the norm.

[Hickok]

Thanks M-Tec.

Been using this as my standard for over 40 years of revolver shooting with iron sights. It has worked for me hunting with many deer kills over the years.

I do own a .357 mag Model 686 6" barrel that is tack driver with the Lyman Keith #358421 @ 1150 fps, consistent 3-4inch groups at 100 yard, benched, iron sights. Probably more due to light recoil than anything else.

I also squirrel hunt with a S&W Model 22 k-frame 8 3/8" barrel. It will put 5 shots into 1 inch and under at 25 yards with me behind the trigger. Patience and stalking with this revolver brings home the squirrels!

[apen]

I've shot a lot of groups. I only remember and photograph the best ones. If you shoot hundreds of 5 shot groups a year, you will get some really good ones. I don't think citing what you did on one certain days with certain targets is reflective of anything other than the law of averages.

[44man]

I try to show the bad with the good because there is something to be learned from a bad group.
I can no longer do like I used to and it is me now. I can't see as good or hold as steady.
You learn to sort out things and can tell if you messed up so nothing is done on demand. Yet my guns and loads themselves never change but I do.
It was a joke on a lot of sites when I said I could tell what primer or die set you used.
One day a friend brought out a new S&W in .45 ACP. We both sprayed a 25 yard target. Down in my basement I found the gun was good but kept looking at the little case. I told John the primer is too much so I went to the lathe and cut bushings for a SP primer. He went down and was shooting 1" groups at 25 yards. He clanged my ringer at 100. He bought 1000 SP cases for it and his 1911 because it even improved that gun. I hear of guys tossing those cases, you don't know what they will do!
The best thing for you is to not follow, think for yourself. Long range accuracy is that little round in your hand so it is better to stare at it and figure it out.
Someone will say you MUST use this or that, OK, can you test? 90% will be wrong in the end.
Someone will say you MUST use a magnum primer in a .44---WHY? Because someone or a book said so. Funny I went to the top shooting the Fed 150 in the .44 with 296 and I still use them.
Someone says soften boolits to obturate so now you have slump and skidding. I go the other way to hit at 500 meters.
Hard lead will lead the bore???? I have revolvers not cleaned in 3 years.
I see tails hanging to drag on, why would you do that?
Be your own man and never stop testing until you see just how good a revolver will do. It is on your shoulders.
Look at the silly gun with 5 or 6 chambers and tell me they can't shoot.

[44man]

I recently bought a 30-30 Marlin, Remlin really. Seen I needed to buy a book to make it accurate. Crazy modifications never to be done by me.
I started work and made some molds. I got to 1" at 100 yards, YES 100, it is a rifle and is never shot at 25. I actually got a 3/16" group at 100. No, not all the time but it showed I was on the right track. What did I find? BRASS. I seen .020" to .030" run out on boolits so I neck turned and fire formed brass. I got to .0002" to zero run out. I went all out with BR techniques on a lever gun.
IT IS THAT HUNK OF BRASS! I refuse to modify a great gun.
I just prepared more brass and found weights from 124 gr to 139 gr so I sorted. I fully expect 1" or under at 100. Please do not show me 25 yard patterns at 25 yards from a rifle.
You can't do that with a micro groove and cast? You need Ballard rifling but measure it and see the Ballard is still .003" deep, same as micro groove but less lands and grooves. Until Ballard is made .006" deep it can be WORSE.
I have revolvers that out shoot many rifles at any range and a lever gun as good as a bolt gun. Tell me how to improve them.

[Groo]

Groo here
+10 44man.
Cant do it any more[eyes bad] but on college my friend and I would shoot at pop cans at 100yds.
Got so we could hit 50%+ of the time with Pythons off hand 2 handed.
All it takes is "buckets" of bullets.
That was 40 years ago so cant do so well now. Paper plates from a rest now.
The thing is getting over the idea that a pistol won't "shoot" that far.
I miss the old days.

[44man]

Groo here
+10 44man.
Cant do it any more[eyes bad] but on college my friend and I would shoot at pop cans at 100yds.
Got so we could hit 50%+ of the time with Pythons off hand 2 handed.
All it takes is "buckets" of bullets.
That was 40 years ago so cant do so well now. Paper plates from a rest now.
The thing is getting over the idea that a pistol won't "shoot" that far.
I miss the old days.
We do get old but have memories that nobody else can reach yet, until they get old enough.
No trigger should be pulled until the load is right and even back in 1956, I matched Elmer's distance. I thought I knew it all but it was a drop in the bucket after many years. I found a lot of leaky buckets but they are still sold today.
I have made so many mistakes but we move on and all the gun rags are mostly wrong.
In the old days I head shot chucks better the 600 yards with a pre 64 Winchester in .220 swift. I actually did shoot a five shot 1/4" group at 350 yards with it. My .300 Weatherby would do 1/2" all day. My 1892 marlin in 25-20 did 3/4" at 100, open sights with cast. The Marlin Mounty did 3/4" at 100 with WW high speed HP's. The 71 Winchester head shot chucks at 100 with cast. I shot the Ruger flat top over 400 yards in 1956 and hit targets. Elmer's load of 22 gr of 2400 with the 429421 but not with his soft alloy. He was wrong with a few things and I don't think any of his boolits were as cast when they left the guns. 16 to 1 at 1400 fps-- get real. No wonder he complained over a lube groove change. It still persists.
I find so much wrong but to keep piece, I go out of sorts to agree with what I know is wrong.
Shoot pure lead at 1400-1500 fps, or 50-50 at 2000 fps. See me hang my head!

[44man]

Tin will harden boolits??? I have pure here an it runs 5 to 7 BHN. Add it to pure and get a harder boolit?? I use the LBT tester and it pokes a deep hole in tin. Will it harden pure lead? Maybe a tad. I have piles of 20 to 1 BPCR boolits, guess what BHN they are? SEVEN. Oh WOW, good for 1400 fps!
I have a hard time when you are told to add tin to harden a boolit.

[1bluehorse]

I'm kinda happy with minute of tin can at 25 yards, and an occasional miss. 50 yards, an occasional hit. 100 yards, cause for celebration, especially with witnesses.

Have no idea where I-20 is, but I'll say you and I could shoot together all day and then some and have a very good time......we could bet a quarter a shot and by the end of the shooting we'd probably be even-steven....:2_high5:

[44man]

Have no idea where I-20 is, but I'll say you and I could shoot together all day and then some and have a very good time......we could bet a quarter a shot and by the end of the shooting we'd probably be even-steven....:2_high5:
Naw, come here and I will put you behind a revolver from a rest and you can hit awful small stuff at 100.

[sw282]

l-20 runs thru the middle of DIXIE..SC GA AL MS LA TX..l take it to Shooters where l practice w/my 44.. lts got a red dot on it.Why ?? Because it is IMPOSSIBLE to focus on open sights AND the target at the SAME time... Target fuzzy. Sights sharp.

0ptics made focus on sight/target together possible

[apen]

One day a friend brought out a new S&W in .45 ACP. We both sprayed a 25 yard target. Down in my basement I found the gun was good but kept looking at the little case. I told John the primer is too much so I went to the lathe and cut bushings for a SP primer. He went down and was shooting 1" groups at 25 yards.









Now why didn't Brian Zins or the AMU think of that? Those wacky inept clowns...

[44man]

Gun writers only advertize today. Look at a gun test and see a full page ad next. They do no work, use factory loads provided free. Just make money for the rag. Most rags are done with one session on the toilet. You need a $1500 scope or a $5000 rifle to shoot
Look at my Marlin 30-30 with cast at 100 yards using 3031 and a Fed 155 LP mag primer, only three shots, darn sorry for that. You can not shoot cast with rifle powders, need Unique or 2400. Need a LR primer. Need a LP mag in the .44---WHY, because it says MAG on the case!129401 who is Brian Zins? Is he smarter then you?

[45 2.1]

Seems a might harsh Jim.......... calm down, you'll live longer. These youngsters haven't figured out a lot of things yet........... give 'em time.

[cbrick]

Well, I'm a month late to this party but I'll add a truism to the thread.

For anyone that has a hard set conviction that a revolver cannot do it it's a cold hard guaranteed fact that YOU never will do it or believe that anyone can.

I started the Extravaganza of Silhouette at the Los Angeles Silhouette Club 20 years ago. A three day event, entries fired through on Saturday, Sunday and a half day on Monday (Labor Day Weekend). Shoot-offs to break tie scores on Monday afternoon. On the second annual Extravaganza in the two and a half days of competition there were over 600 entries fired and I had a half day to conduct the shoot-offs. At the time full size chickens were used at 200 meters for shoot-offs and there were numerous shooters there quite capable of cleaning bank after bank of these targets, including in Master Class Revolver. In other words I was in quite the pickle, how to conclude the shoot-offs in time to also compile results and hold the trophy presentation and be finished by late Monday afternoon, not Tuesday sometime. That was the match that 1/2 size chickens at 200 meters were introduced to long range handgun silhouette. For those that aren't familiar with silhouette target size, a 1/2 size chicken is about the size of a pack of cigarettes. The plan worked, I did get the shoot-offs finished in time but there were shooters that did clean a bank of the 1/2 size chickens, even in revolver class. Just thankfully not bank after bank of them. After that match 1/2 size shoot-off targets became the norm in long range handgun.

Not just revolver shooting Creedmoor but silhouette handguns overall. Central Coast Silhouette club in Central California holds an annual 500 meter silhouette match on their normal rifle course and combines the silhouette rifle shooters and handgun shooters into one match. Rifle shooters must use shooting positions legal in rifle silhouette competition and handgun shooters must use legal shooting positions in handgun silhouette. The rifles have never won this match. The only perfect score of 40X40 that I am aware of ever fired on the 500 meter course was done by Richard Mishler shooting a 10 inch BF from Creedmoor. To prove it wasn't a fluke he did it again a couple of years later.

To the Nay Sayers this is all impossible because the guns can't do it. The reality is . . . Yes they can and so can many shooters.

Rick

EDIT to add: In the 500 meter rifle/handgun matches ALL of the rifles are scoped, most of the handgun shooters are using iron sights. Mr. Mishler uses an iron sighted BF pistol, not a scope.

[45 2.1]

To the Nay Sayers this is all impossible because the guns can't do it. The reality is . . . Yes they can and so can many shooters. Rick

Good synopsis Rick. Yep, it is possible and quite a few people can do it...... several different ways in fact.

[Whiterabbit]

l-20 runs thru the middle of DIXIE..SC GA AL MS LA TX..l take it to Shooters where l practice w/my 44.. lts got a red dot on it.Why ?? Because it is IMPOSSIBLE to focus on open sights AND the target at the SAME time... Target fuzzy. Sights sharp.

0ptics made focus on sight/target together possible

diopter on your shooting glasses. It's amazing. Try it with a piece of tape and awl sometime. Someday soon I absolutely must buy a legitimate one for my glasses.

[cbrick]

diopter on your shooting glasses. It's amazing. Try it with a piece of tape and awl sometime. Someday soon I absolutely must buy a legitimate one for my glasses.

I wouldn't go near a range without one.

Merit Optical (http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/978528/merit-optical-attachment-with-suction-cup?cm_mmc=ps_google-_-google-_-ST_Range_Supplies_Equipment_Alpha_G-_-merit+optical+attachment&gclid=CL-80qKvxsMCFcECaQodwA4AZA)

Rick

[bcp477]

Heck, I am happy to get 2" groups at 10 yards ! I hardly ever have the chance to shoot at 25, so I probably would be very lucky to stay inside of 12" at that distance. I do have an S&W revolver that is marvelously accurate. From a machine rest, I swear that thing could put all of them through one hole - but I can't produce anything like that, myself.

[cbrick]

Heck, I am happy to get 2" groups at 10 yards ! I hardly ever have the chance to shoot at 25, so I probably would be very lucky to stay inside of 12" at that distance. I do have an S&W revolver that is marvelously accurate. From a machine rest, I swear that thing could put all of them through one hole - but I can't produce anything like that, myself.

There is a perfectly logical reason why you can't do it. It's because you have convinced yourself that you can't.

Now convince yourself that you can & learn what it takes to do it. My money is on your being a happy camper with your improvement and much quicker than you might think. Telling yourself you can't is convincing yourself to be defeated before you even begin. Learn how and stop defeating yourself.

Rick

[BigboreShooter]

I guess I need more practice!!!!

BigboreShooter

[cbrick]

I have no idea how much experience you may have Bigbore so don't take this as an insult but . . . More of the right kind of practice, practicing old bad habits won't help much.

Rick

[sw282]

l started shooting my 629 Magnum Hunter w/factory red dot 3 times a week beginning 2015. My best groups @25 yards are 50% smaller than they were before Christmas. l shoot 'revolver standing' class.
Turned 68 in Sept and made up my mind l am going to stick with shooting ONE gun.. Regardless of my score l will be having FUN and will look into the diopter lense... Thanks for the tip..


282

[MakeMineA10mm]

I'm the firearms instructor on my department and we qualify jointly with other departments over a week-long period at the Sheriff's Office range. I get to see dozens of shooters, several times a year, and have been a participant (not instructor, but for the last five years) in this for 25 years now. In all that time, I met and saw ONE natural great shot. He never practiced and routinely shot perfect scores.

I worked my butt off to become a good shot since I was 16, and I've got a shelf full of trophies. There are still people who beat me all the time. Not every day is a perfect, or even a good, day at the range. Still, I've got some good memories.

One was when we still carried revolvers, and after a naysayer said it couldn't be done, I started shooting a 3-lb coffee can at about 50 yards (it happened to be laying in the gravel pit we were at), and kept it rolling down the range to about 130 yards away. (Standing, 2-handed, unsupported, double-action.)

Another was at the county range for a night shoot, where I rang a 1/3-man sized steel silhouette at 100+ yards in the dark. (It was a black target and could not be seen. The quarter moon was behind the berm, creating a shadow where the target was. Even the instructor didn't know how I was hitting it. I think I hit it 12 times out of 15 shots. I finally confessed my secret a year ago to my then-Lieutenant, who witnessed it and is a member here at CB. It's one of my best memories, because there were 20 guys there whom I respected greatly, and they were convinced I was a 10mm Jedi Knight using my Glock 20 like Yota uses a light saber. :) )

It's amazing watching trained officers shoot, how many of them look at the target, make the gun go off, not watch the front sight, grip wrong, stand wrong, don't use dominant eye, etc, etc.

Yet, 15 years ago, with a similar cross-section of officers (poor to average shots), we ran an "Advanced Marksmanship" class. It was three days, started up close and concentrated on fixing/addressing fundamentals. Then moved back. We shot a LOT. We kept addressing fundamentals. We taught the concept of the "100-yard Pipe" and by the third day, we had everyone shooting 90% plus in the 8-ring of a B-27 target with at least 1 or 2 10-ring hits at 100 yards, standing unsupported with 2 hands. Now, these aren't great groups, per se, but it shows that concentrating on fundamentals, good instruction, and quantity practice can get any of you up to doing -- which is what the naysayers would consider "impossible," or "amazing." (By the way, none of those officers can still shoot as good, because they didn't maintain their proficiency... Shooting at this level is a perishable skill.)

[tazman]

I haven't heard of the "100 yard pipe" concept before. Is there a link available to more information on this?

[BigboreShooter]

CBrick
I agree completely!!!

BigboreShooter

[MakeMineA10mm]

I haven't heard of the "100 yard pipe" concept before. Is there a link available to more information on this?

Tazman,
I'm not sure, I never googled it. Essentially, one envisages an imaginary 3" pipe which starts around the 10-ring and extends back to the muzzle of your pistol. You must do the fundamentals (we ran through a quick checklist in our head), but the 100-yd pipe aspect was about keeping the muzzle of your pistol inside that pipe. This allows one to stay visually focused on the front sight while the subconscious keeps the muzzle aligned with the target.

Staying focused on the front sight and proper trigger control and break are all one needs to be a really good shot at 25-50 yards. Add in some other details, such as stance and grip, and with a little practice, one can be a great shot. Add in volume of practice and increasing challenges, and you may surprise yourself...

My secret for shooting the "invisible" black steel silhouette at night? First, I had the skill to hit it in daylight, so stance, grip, trigger control, front sight, etc. were good, and I practiced weekly or more back then. The "trick" was that I knew the target was in the corner of the backstop, where the north-south berm met the east-west berm. That crevice or seam where the 2 berms met was just visible, so I used that for windage. I also knew it was at chest/neck height, so if I kept my arms straight (parallel to the ground), elevation was good. To check my sight alignment, I aimed into the lighter moon-lit sky above the berm. Due to my skill level from all that practice back then, I could lock in my stance and just bring my arms down after lining up the sights, and when I knew my arms were at normal elevation, I squeezed off the shot. You just need to see the front sight, have great trigger control, and have solid fundamentals. You technically don't need to see your target. :)

[tazman]

I am not sure my fundamentals are sound but I don't know who to ask to find out around here. I do understand and practice my trigger control but it is my greatest weakness. I am getting better though. My groups are consistently half the size they were 6 months ago and those were smaller than the ones 6 months before that. Proper eye focus and hand steadiness I am working on. There are some limits to those.

You would think that being a state champion target archer would translate but it hasn't for me. At the time I stopped shooting my bow I could shoot smaller groups at 30 yards with my bow than I could with my scoped rifle offhand.

[kweidner]

It's all about PROPER repitition to learn a skill. I got to be an above average handgun hunter by purchasing a Taurus .22 revolver. Practiced cases of round using field positions.
The next couple years squirrell hunting that's all I would take. The first season or two I would have starved. Now it is nothing for a proper head shot.
Yes this one is scoped. I also practice out to 100 on my distance AR500 plate. I use the post of the crosshair in the leupold 2x and hit with boring regularity. I can do it off hand using both hands most of the time and rested I would say 95 percent or better depending in wind conditions. It can be done.
Leave the long guns home and depend on the handgun and you will make yourself a better shot. Ever heard the saying fear the man with one gun? There is a reason. I am guilty of moving from patform to platform. I have often thought of selling most of the collection and spend more time with just a few. It would probably make me an even better marksman.

[JSH]

Tazman, I did opposite of what you said. The bow greatly helped my bullseye shooting. Follow through. Just from having done somthing similar as you describe, I would say you are dropping the gun down after the shot, in order to see the target. Revolvers are a challenge for sure 5-8 different chambers for one gun. An auto theory should be more accurate. None the less it is very interesting to watch a bullseye match and see several shoot 290-299 averages. Just makes me shake my head.
Jeff

[44man]

Good information to get better but I still preach one thing over all else for long ranges. How accurate you load! You will never shoot good until you wring out the top accuracy your gun can do. You can practice forever with a bad load and stay miserable.
That is why I have worked so hard with revolvers and I know Rick has too. You can not shoot IHMSA with a load that does 4" at 25 yards.
My best group was from my 45-70 BFR, 2-1/2" at 500 yards but understand that load did 3/16" at 50 yards from a rest.
Then recoil, I know it bothers some so any pain from a grip has to go away. If it hurts, it takes too much grit to overcome. I have done it when a guy came to the range to shoot his SBH, the square trigger guard got me every shot when he let me shoot it. From Creedmore I hit a milk jug every shot at 200 yards with blood flying. He could not keep paper at 15 yards. I told him to remove the sharp edges or put Pachmeyer grips on it.
So it led me on a new course. I teach with a bigger gun so recoil is learned without pain, then a smaller gun is easy. I have made guys shoot my .500 first, then watched them take a can at 100 with a .454 off hand.
Learn with a .22 and if I hand you a .44 or .475, you will be lost with fear. Your brain will say "look out." A .22 is good to learn the trigger control but it is just not enough. I have never seen anyone move from a .22 to a .475 with control.

[FLHTC]

I wasn't a firm believer in revolver accuracy until I shot one that could produce it. Some might laugh but those who own, or owned one know exactly what I'm referring to. A Dan Wesson 15-2, proved to me that revolvers could to be made to shoot, right out of the box. Whatever factors came into play with their guns, and I assume it was the barrel design, worked and worked well. Bar none, the DW was the most accurate revolver I ever fired. A 2" group at 25 yards would be a bad day.

[44man]

I was one of the top archers in Ohio, belonged to the Eight Ball club and shot demos at the Cleveland Sportsman shows. Bow tuning is like loading. Tuning off and you throw shots. I was able to shoot a bare shaft to the bull at 60 yards. I figured out broad head tuning that Easton uses today. I made the first lighted bow sight for night owl shoots and dim light deer hunting.
I overcame buck fever and shot three deer my first season, Ohio, MI and PA. At the time it took an archer 17 years to get one.
Buck fever from a few friends is unbelievable. One can take the heart out of a deer target with his .44 all day but can not hit a deer. He shot one small deer in all these years, 270 rifle at 100 yards--GUT SHOT!
Don't overlook buck fever or pressure at a shoot. Competition can turn you to a rag and if you miss, you get worse. You need to relax and depend on the confidence of your gun and loads.
Casual shooting with friends with no pressure will make you better. Don't get up tight, shoot for fun but never stop looking for accuracy, that is too hard if under pressure.
One other thing I found is do not hold your breath when setting up to a target, keep breathing so your vision does not fail. Only at the very last should you control your breathing. Deep breaths will speed your heart so don't hog air. Keep breathing normal, let some out and hold.

[tazman]

44man
From your statement about the bare shaft it sounds like we were using the same or at least very similar bow tuning methods. I never read anything from Easton on bow tuning so I do not know what they use. I worked out my own method by studying how the bow worked. It worked for me anyway.
My biggest problem with handgun accuracy is a tendency to jerk the trigger when the sight crosses the bull. I don't do that with a rifle but do with a handgun. My revolver groups well from a rest. Much better than I do when shooting it offhand. I need to get steadier on target and control the jerk. When I do it right I hit center.
I really have to focus on control. If I focus on holding steady, I tend to jerk the trigger. If I focus on trigger control, the sights wander all over.
I often practice trigger control from a rest so I don't have to deal with the sight picture moving. Hard to focus on several things at once.

[Whiterabbit]

Learn with a .22 and if I hand you a .44 or .475, you will be lost with fear. Your brain will say "look out." A .22 is good to learn the trigger control but it is just not enough. I have never seen anyone move from a .22 to a .475 with control.

I have been forced to agree with this conclusion completely. also with the comment about comfy grips. The ability to hold my BFR "weak" (not quite tea-cupping, just 'weak') has been a major boon to my groups. It works because my hand is so stretched around the grips I chose that under recoil the gun actually gets tighter in my hand under recoil, not looser or breaking free! Meanwhile, my buddy who LOVED to shoot my BFR (with OEM grips) refuses to do so now, it's so uncomfortable for him. Interesting stuff.

but back to 22 vs heavy recoil, it was very clear I could practice with a 22 or even a 45acp till my eyes bled from focus and it wasn't going to help me simply due to recoil management. There is no replacement for range time with the exact gun and load you are using. None of this "put two light loads in there with three heavy ones" **** either. I'm not here to scare myself randomly when shooting, I am here to train my muscle memory to react properly when my trigger breaks at. Every. Single. Shot. To this end, I stopped shooting all loads except one, turned the BFR into a one-load, one-gun gun. I can use other loads later.

Having learned this lesson on the BFR but not understanding that it applies to ALL firearms, I bought a trainer 22 for my safari rifle. Both are CZ, both have the same stock config, same sights, they are nearly identical except the 22 is a little lighter (I've considered correcting even this). It's a TERRIBLE trainer. You can't put 100 rounds of 22 downrange using the same stance and grip on the rifle as will be used on the safari rifle and expect that to translate in any way when you have a 460 weatherby necked up to .510 in the chamber. Just doesn't work that way. The solution? Put on the big boy pants, put 20-40 rounds down range per range session, and shrug off the embarassment of everyone else watching me miss 40 times at the range for the first 10 range sessions, because after those first 400 rounds I will shoot that rifle better than they can shoot their scoped AR-15's.

[44man]

44man
From your statement about the bare shaft it sounds like we were using the same or at least very similar bow tuning methods. I never read anything from Easton on bow tuning so I do not know what they use. I worked out my own method by studying how the bow worked. It worked for me anyway.
My biggest problem with handgun accuracy is a tendency to jerk the trigger when the sight crosses the bull. I don't do that with a rifle but do with a handgun. My revolver groups well from a rest. Much better than I do when shooting it offhand. I need to get steadier on target and control the jerk. When I do it right I hit center.
I really have to focus on control. If I focus on holding steady, I tend to jerk the trigger. If I focus on trigger control, the sights wander all over.
I often practice trigger control from a rest so I don't have to deal with the sight picture moving. Hard to focus on several things at once.
Yes I have the same problem. It is very hard to control the trigger when the sights move around. Your first thought it to pull as the sights go past the bull. It is still best to ignore the movement and keep the trigger pull until the gun fires without aid from you. Anytime you make the gun go off, you will miss. Even speed shooters control the pull so as not to make the gun fire when wrong. They have my utmost respect. I used to be able to do it but that takes so much practice it gets out of hand. I could hold my pistol in my left hand and throw a bottle with my right hand, grab the pistol and break the bottle. A few days off and you start all over. That stuff goes away but trigger control will not unless you make the gun fire as it passes the target. It is VERY hard to control when the sights wander around. It is still best to add pull even when moving. It is why I hit moving deer easier then a standing deer. I need to lead and track without keeping the gun still.
It is easier to swing through a flying bird then to shoot a can off a post with a shotgun.
I do not make deer stop so I can shoot. The swing removes shakes. Even a walking deer is easier then a standing one. I seem to have a crazy built in lead as to distance, speed, or gun used. No thinking involved, just natural. The hardest thing for me is a still target. Then a rest, even from my knees is best.
I do it with a rifle too. I can hit a running deer at over 200 yards but play heck with one standing at 100. I find rifle fit to you really counts too. I make stocks to fit me but some factory stocks will never hit where I look. The best shotgun stock ever for me was the Ithaca 37. I shot many rifles off hand at 100 where I was so bad it was a laugh. I shot too many revolvers better.
It took years of revolver shooting deer to get over what my thoughts were. I kept looking at the stupid little gun and wanted a rifle stock but in the end, they work and I have full confidence now.
I prefer a walking deer that makes me move the gun instead of the shakes moving me.

[cbrick]

For those having trouble with revolver groups here are the single biggest tips you can get.

Revolvers are the MOST grip sensitive firearm you can shoot. Period! Compared with other action types such as a bolt action rifle they have very slow lock time and far slower barrel time. ANY change you make to the grip will make huge differences in point of impact every single time the grip is different. If you squeeze the grip slightly harder you WILL shoot low. If you ease up on the grip you WILL shoot high. If you move your hand up or down on the grip in the slightest you have changed the point of impact and WILL shoot high or low. If you move your hand right or left on grip you have changed the point of impact right or left. Even a 22 rimfire revolver will move in your hand upon recoil. It must be replaced in your hand exactly as it was on the previous shot. As an exaggeration you can almost squeeze the trigger, break the sears and put the revolver down on the bench BEFORE the bullet exits the muzzle, consider that with different gripping of the gun causing completely different muzzle rise before the bullet exits with each shot. You can see this effect at 25 yards, it is huge at 50 and with no more difference than changing your grip you will be lucky if you even keep it on the target at 100 much less group.

Next is follow through. Once again consider the slow barrel time and muzzle rise. Identical grip allowing consistent follow through on every shot is critical to grouping a revolver.

Next is grip size. The revolvers grip must fit your hand properly. If like me you have large hands the typical single action grips are almost impossible for me to shoot consistently with. All of my single action revolvers wear Pachs. Yep, I agree completely, ugly as sin but ask yourself this . . . Do you want to look good or do you want to shoot good? Pick one and if your answer is shoot good then fit the grips to your hand.

Rick

[44man]

Nothing more needs said after some of the best respond. You need look no farther.

[tazman]

cbrick said-----Next is grip size. The revolvers grip must fit your hand properly. If like me you have large hands the typical single action grips are almost impossible for me to shoot consistently with.

That would explain my problems with the single action revolvers then. Never have been able to shoot one consistently.
I am working on getting myself accurate with good double action revolvers at this point. I know the gun is capable. I know the cartridge is capable. I just have to make myself capable.
I have been trading emails with 44man to improve the accuracy of my handloads. I think I am there now.
All I need to do now is get the bugs out of my shooting.

[Whiterabbit]

If you are like me and have thin and wiry hands but long palms and LONG fingers, you need these grips:

http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/02/24/1133846_01__45_70_bfr_revolver_640.jpg

(not my gun)

When I first installed them my pinky screamed at me "this feels unnatural!" but the groups downrange, even after the first hundred rounds or so, told the whole story. Now it feels just fine. My buddy will still refuse to shoot my revolver now.

Again, I do not have bear-paw hands. I do have very large hands, but they are narrow and LONG. Makes fitting a trigger finger to a trigger difficult at best and painful at worst. Those grips work.

I bet bear-hands wouldn't have the pinky issue I had.

-------------------

They do rub the inside of my middle finger, to the point that I will bleed there (skin rubbed away about 2mm x 2mm), no amount of shooting seems to toughen it up. I don't know what to do about that yet. only takes a week or so to heal for now, so I just live with it.

[bosterr]

Ok Whiterabbit, where did you find those Hogue grips? I have those on my S & W revolvers and they work the best for me. You described my hands exactly!. XL glove size, but narrow palms. Are they made for the BFR or are they modified Ruger grips? Hogue's web site only lists them for Rugers. Not shown on the MRI site, but they're shown on the cover of their owner's manual. I'm dying to take my .475 to the range, but too much snow everywhere. All I was able to do so far is fire 20 rounds at twigs on a dirt pile. It rolled in my hand like my Rugers did, but I like more control. I learned way back in my handgun silhouette days that consistent grip was everything.

[Whiterabbit]

https://www.magnumresearch.com/Grips/Magnum-Research-BFR-Hogue-Pau-Ferro-Wood-Grips.asp

[bosterr]

https://www.magnumresearch.com/grips/magnum-research-bfr-hogue-pau-ferro-wood-grips.asp

thanks!

[wquiles]

This thread has been "very" helpful - thank you guys. I have been trying to maintain a more consistent grip, and it is helping. Nothing to brag about, but these are the best 50 yard groups I have ever shot with a handgun - sitting on the bench, 1x red dot scope. Load is an Accurate 265 gr boolit, 20gr Lil'Gun (about 1200 fps per QuickLoad our of my 4-5/8" Ruger SBH):
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/Feb6_2015/20150206_161503.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/Feb6_2015/20150206_161528.jpg
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/Feb6_2015/20150206_161510.jpg


I really need to try with a 2x scope, as I am confident I can shrink these a little if I do my part.

Will

[Lonegun1894]

That's plenty good to hunt with to 50yds, and if you manage to maintain that same type of consistency,so that the bottom group translates to 8"x3"@100yds, you'll make meat at that range too. The trick is to keep improving and not give up when your improvement hits a plateau for a while, and not settle for whatever your performance is then. You're doing great, especially for one of those cheap throw away SBHs. :) ( I have a BH in .45 Colt and a SBH in .44 Mag, and need to get a .357 mag to complete my line-up)

[44man]

129843You are getting there, don't give up. These are groups at 50 yards with PB boolits from my .475. Left target has two five shot groups during sight in. Ultra Dot. 129844This is my SBH at 50. Ultra Dot. 129846Shotgun shell at 100 with my BFR in .500 JRH, missed the first by 1/2" second got it. Ultra Dot, darn hard to hold at such a small target.
Yes it can be done and everyone that shoots my loads does the same or better with their guns.

[44man]

I get a big grin when most friends out shoot me. It is because I made it so at the loading bench. Designed my own boolits, made the molds too.
I wish I could convince all that most of your guns and how you shoot is OK.
It was not an overnight thing, took me years to fully understand the revolver. Started with jacketed until a .44 would do 1/2" at 50 meters. Then the challenge of cast to equal jacketed. You will soon see rifle shooters at your range pack it in and leave after seeing what you do.
Then the single shot pistol, there are very few rifles that can match a good SS.
Like benching a rifle, you must remove yourself and all the shakes and movements to test a load. It really is true you can out shoot a Ransom Rest. Even if your vision is good, you can do 1/2" at 50 meters with open sights on your revolver.

[wquiles]

Thank you guys. I will keep practicing :)

Will

[44man]

Sitting and thinking is better. Evaluate your targets and figure out what caused the fliers. What lube? Is it too slippery so a primer breaks case tension or so hard it throws boolits out of balance? What primer? New brass or fired brass? Brand new has the worst tension evenness. Alloy? Powder?
Once things come together, I found no difference in calibers or guns unless your guns dimensions are not correct.
Imagination to see what happens in the revolver in your mind can really help. You can imagine your trigger squeeze and hold too, it really does help. Most of what I have found is from day dreaming.
I bought the BFR 45-70 with a 10" barrel and knew I was in trouble with the short barrel and huge case. I wanted it because I have everything and anything for the caliber but it took 2 months before I broke the sear on it. Testing started and I got it to work. A 1" target at 100 yards is easy and I shot and hit every shot to 500 meters. I have never, ever shot a 45-70 rifle that will do what it does. I shoot over 7 different boolits from it and all will do the same.

[apen]

I shot at 50 yards the other day.
Ruger gp 100 with 1" 4moa ultra dot
Sierra 158 JSP 16.0 grains H110
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn117/1911govt/IMG_0766_zps5c4ef5f4.jpg[/URL ([URL]http://s302.photobucket.com/user/1911govt/media/IMG_0766_zps5c4ef5f4.jpg.html)]

My ruger SBH 265 grain Ray Thompson style gc bullets 23.0 grains h110 and a fed 150 primer. Factory iron sights.
I can get better groups with iron sights using the smaller timed/rapid 25yd targets at 50 yards than the larger 50 yard slowfire targets.
With the ultradot, the smaller timed/rapid targets are harder to get a good sight picture.
Not award winning, but the best I could muster.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn117/1911govt/IMG_0771_zps775f18b2.jpg[/URL ([URL]http://s302.photobucket.com/user/1911govt/media/IMG_0771_zps775f18b2.jpg.html)]

[35remington]

Let's point out, for posterity once again, that off the shelf Smith and Wesson and Ruger and whatever make you want to mention are not capable of 1/2 inch at fifty yards for an average, nor anywhere near it.

Reality is using realistic expectations. If the guns aren't capable of it with all human error eliminated, half inch groups at fifty yards should not be mentioned as a goal to be achieved.

REALITY is in the title of the thread. People can make whatever claims they want.

Whether they are believed and realistic is quite another matter.

[Rodfac]

Good thread...I'm 68 now and wear bifocals daily. For shooting, I use the 'reading' part of my glasses or Walmart 1.75x cheaters to focus on the front sight alone. Lighting makes a big difference and I do my best with morning light from behind me. The target also affects group size for me. I use as a standard, 10" paper plates with a 3"x3" piece of blue masking tape giving me some sort of uniformity to judge performance of load and gun.

I blacken the sights with a candle and use as uniform a grip as I can manage...no gloves even in the coldest of weather or the potential recoil of the combination under consideration.

I also use the same position...Keith's old long range position: seated with my back to a support, knees drawn up and the gun extended between my knees with both hands on the gun. For me, that position is more accurate than shooting off bags, and gives me the same point of impact that I have offhand in the field or from a seated deer stand type shot. An important consideration for me.

With all that accomplished and with a good gun and load combination I can get very close to 1" gps at 25 yds with my eyes. Of all the variables involved these three are most important in my opinion and experience: front sight focus, grip uniformity, and trigger manipulation...all about equal in their affect on grouping. Any variation, shot to shot, will open the group by an inch...they're that important.

Here's a pic of the position...the beauty of this old stance promoted by Keith in his old tome, "Sixguns", is that it's available anywhere you want to shoot...no bags nor bench rest necessary...Rod

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/Rodfac/Positions%20Holster%20Shoot/SittingGrip.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/Rodfac/media/Positions%20Holster%20Shoot/SittingGrip.jpg.html)

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/Rodfac/Targets/D44Tgt.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/Rodfac/media/Targets/D44Tgt.jpg.html)

[cbrick]

Outstanding shooting Rodfac.

I have a question. Just what do you think your doing in that first pic shooting from my back deck? :shock: Leaves and all.

Rick

[44man]

Let's point out, for posterity once again, that off the shelf Smith and Wesson and Ruger and whatever make you want to mention are not capable of 1/2 inch at fifty yards for an average, nor anywhere near it.

Reality is using realistic expectations. If the guns aren't capable of it with all human error eliminated, half inch groups at fifty yards should not be mentioned as a goal to be achieved.

REALITY is in the title of the thread. People can make whatever claims they want.

Whether they are believed and realistic is quite another matter.
That is not true at all. We have amazing revolvers right out of the box.

[44man]

Good thread...I'm 68 now and wear bifocals daily. For shooting, I use the 'reading' part of my glasses or Walmart 1.75x cheaters to focus on the front sight alone. Lighting makes a big difference and I do my best with morning light from behind me. The target also affects group size for me. I use as a standard, 10" paper plates with a 3"x3" piece of blue masking tape giving me some sort of uniformity to judge performance of load and gun.

I blacken the sights with a candle and use as uniform a grip as I can manage...no gloves even in the coldest of weather or the potential recoil of the combination under consideration.

I also use the same position...Keith's old long range position: seated with my back to a support, knees drawn up and the gun extended between my knees with both hands on the gun. For me, that position is more accurate than shooting off bags, and gives me the same point of impact that I have offhand in the field or from a seated deer stand type shot. An important consideration for me.

With all that accomplished and with a good gun and load combination I can get very close to 1" gps at 25 yds with my eyes. Of all the variables involved these three are most important in my opinion and experience: front sight focus, grip uniformity, and trigger manipulation...all about equal in their affect on grouping. Any variation, shot to shot, will open the group by an inch...they're that important.

Here's a pic of the position...the beauty of this old stance promoted by Keith in his old tome, "Sixguns", is that it's available anywhere you want to shoot...no bags nor bench rest necessary...Rod

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/Rodfac/Positions%20Holster%20Shoot/SittingGrip.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/Rodfac/media/Positions%20Holster%20Shoot/SittingGrip.jpg.html)

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/Rodfac/Targets/D44Tgt.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/Rodfac/media/Targets/D44Tgt.jpg.html)
Wonderful and proof to what I said. Don't ever tell me a revolver will not shoot.

[35remington]

44, it is quite true. Suggesting that out of the box revolvers average half inch groups at fifty is ocean foam for the gullible neophyte. I am not of that type. I know much better than that.

Remember that this is about realistic expectations. Never said they can't shoot well. I will contest half inch at fifty claims that are insinuated as typical accuracy. This must not be thought of as attainable accuracy for the stock revolver.

[tazman]

44, it is quite true. Suggesting that out of the box revolvers average half inch groups at fifty is ocean foam for the gullible neophyte. I am not of that type. I know much better than that.

Remember that this is about realistic expectations. Never said they can't shoot well. I will contest half inch at fifty claims that are insinuated as typical accuracy. This must not be thought of as attainable accuracy for the stock revolver.

If that is what you believe, then for you that will be true. Your belief restricts what you can do in this case.
I disagree with your position.

[35remington]

Half inch at fifty for an average with stock revolvers won't happen as typical accuracy. What is believed has nothing to do with it. We are not looking for beliefs, but rather realistic expectation.

Disagreement with my position will not suddenly make half inch fifty yard revolvers the norm, sorry. We're looking for actual events, not doubtful claims in this thread.

I would suggest anyone believing half inch revolvers occur with frequency at fifty yard ranges ought to look for more credible sources of information than this thread, which has been misleading from some sources.

[robertbank]

Half inch at fifty for an average with stock revolvers won't happen as typical accuracy. What is believed has nothing to do with it. We are not looking for beliefs, but rather realistic expectation.

Disagreement with my position will not suddenly make half inch fifty yard revolvers the norm, sorry. We're looking for actual events, not doubtful claims in this thread.

I would suggest anyone believing half inch revolvers occur with frequency at fifty yard ranges ought to look for more credible sources of information than this thread, which has been misleading from some sources.

Poof! I am back in Kansas.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

Half inch at fifty for an average with stock revolvers won't happen as typical accuracy. What is believed has nothing to do with it. We are not looking for beliefs, but rather realistic expectation.

Disagreement with my position will not suddenly make half inch fifty yard revolvers the norm, sorry. We're looking for actual events, not doubtful claims in this thread.

I would suggest anyone believing half inch revolvers occur with frequency at fifty yard ranges ought to look for more credible sources of information than this thread, which has been misleading from some sources.
I have owned 5 or 6 S&W 29's that all did 1/2" at 50 meters with open sights. Only problem was grip sensitivity. Groups would change POI as my hold changed. new SBH hunter did 1/2" every group while sighting it in. Every single BFR has reached 1/2" at 100 yards out of box. I shot beer cans at 200 yards with 3 different SRH's. Even had a Taurus .44 here that did 1/2" at 50. HOW WRONG IS THAT? If you think you need a $3000 custom to shoot when a Ruger will make it look sick, you can't load right.

[35remington]

If they were stock I don't believe a word of that....sorry.

Ask yourself.....why do people pay big coin to custom makers like Clark for revolvers that won't shoot anywhere near that well even given the best barrels and accuracy techniques?

Could it be because stock revolvers really don't shoot as well as you claim they do?

Think about it.

At some point super grandiose claims of accuracy just aren't believable. Just serving notice you are at and beyond that point. Now we are talking half inch BFRs at 100?

Now I'm waving the BS flag.....but this sort of thing brings it out.

[35remington]

Apologies for being blunt enough to say it rather than just think it......but this thread IS about realistic expectations.

[44MAG#1]

I don't doubt for a minute that half-inch groups can be shot with a good revolver.
BUT, again BUT, It only matters what one can do the VAST MAJORITY of the time. Not even just 50 percent of the time but the VAST MAJORITY of the time.
When I look at my shooting, and also while talking about my shooting with others I talk about what I can do the VAST MAJORITY of the time.
That is only what counts.

[35remington]

Yes. A half inch once in a great while hardly makes a representation of what the gun will do.

I am sorry I have to be one of those to drag a thread supposedly about REALISTIC expectations of revolver accuracy back to realism, but sometimes it gets a bit deep in here.

Expecting a stock revolver to regularly shoot a half inch at fifty is far from realistic. The gun itself is not capable even if shooter error was somehow eliminated

[45 2.1]

It only matters what one can do the VAST MAJORITY of the time. Not even just 50 percent of the time but the VAST MAJORITY of the time.

If we were looking for an average that would probably be true. They post record groups for a reason, don't they.....................................

[45 2.1]

Expecting a stock revolver to regularly shoot a half inch at fifty is far from realistic. The gun itself is not capable even if shooter error was somehow eliminated

Hahahaha............. Some revolvers do just that when fed something it likes with someone that really knows how to do that. I've seen that several times in person myself and done it myself also with stock handguns. The gun isn't the week link, the shooter is...................... whether you choose to believe it or not.

[35remington]

I believe the shooter is a weak link, but with claims running to a half inch at fifty yards the stiock revolver is very much challenged as well and is also the weak link. Stock revolvers are not capable of such as a "more often than not" situation.

To claim otherwise is to draw my derisive laughter as well. I am not that gullible.

Whether you choose to believe it or not. I am sure both Ruger and Smith and Wesson would concur, and if they were informed their run of the mill stock revolvers were half inch at fifty capable for averages they'd run up the BS flag in a flash.

[robertbank]

Some of the claims here would put an Olympic Gold Medalist to shame. Half inch group using a 44 with iron sights is as close to a one hole group as damn is to swearing.

Welcome to Kansas.

Take Care

Bob

[45 2.1]

You guys are welcome to believe whatever you want (right, wrong, black or white), but your belief does not alter what has already been done by others whether you are capable or not with your guns and loads.

[tazman]

What was that old saying again. It ran something like -----"Don't tell me what I am doing is impossible while I am standing there doing it. It's just annoying"

[robertbank]

Yup back to the old mystic claims of special codes and lexers. If only......

Take Care

Bob

[35remington]

Quite true. The same points will not suddenly make a half inch revolver at fifty yards a regular occurrence in stock form even if all human error is eliminated.

Just ain't gonna happen. Realism dictates otherwise and nobody here can change that no matter what is said.

[45 2.1]

Really Bob........ it's so nice to be able to ignore you now that you're no longer a mod............... just like a bunch of us have said to you before. You have a good day now.

35.... we are not into realism or rationalization................. just what we see happen. We don't know what you shoot or what ammo you use, but handloads in S&W models (14, 624, 19, 29, 657), Ruger Blackhawks in (357, 41, 44 and 45) and TC Contenders with a 10" 45 ACP barrel have all did this when everything lined up.... all depends on what you put in them and how salty you are.

[44MAG#1]

Just because there are SOME that can wring half-inch groups from a stock revolver or semi-auto does not make it REALITY for most which makes it UN REALISTIC for most . If you do, that makes your perception of REALITY hard for most to live up to.
Again if those type of groups were that frequent for so many there would be no reason to show the tiny little groups. That make groups like that the exception to the rule. While those groups are a reality, due to the fact they have been shot, does not make them realistic.

[cbrick]

I competed in long range handgun for 30 years. The revolver category is part of the production class meaning that only over the counter production guns are allowed. It is also an open sight category, no scopes. The ONLY modifications to the revolver allowed are grips, after market sights and a trigger job and that only if they can be installed without modification to the revolver. NO other modifications to the over the counter out of the box revolver are allowed.

Now consider the NRA National Championships in Master Class Revolver and the IHMSA International Championships in International Class revolver. Shoot-offs to break perfect score 80x80 ties are at 200 meters (218 yards) and the target size is right about the size of a pack of cigarettes and it is not uncommon for these shooters to clean a bank of these targets, done it myself a time or two. Creedmoor, no artificial support of any kind and no benches. Now if you can hit five consecutive packs of cigarettes at 218 yards would one of these nay sayers like to explain what the group would be at 50 meters with a production revolver?

Rick

[44MAG#1]

How many shooting ranges doe you know of that is being overrun with shooters of that caliber?
We are now being realistic about reality and how it is perceieved and our perception of reality and realistic.

[35remington]

Stock revolvers and their capabilies......more often than not.

Half inch capable at fifty? Lay very heavy odds on "not."

You may all step up to the plate with your guns and feel free to eliminate human error however you can.

Again, if you want to claim stockers are capable feel free. The more outrageous the claim the less we figure you're likely to put up.

[robertbank]

I wonder why folks pay Bill Wilson $4,500 and up for custom 1911's that come with a 1" guarantee at 25 yards when they could spend $500 on a Ruger BH and shoot 1/2" groups easy peasy at 50 yards.

45 2.1 your ignore button isn't working. Get it to work.

35 Remington you are into the ether of the outerworld where a 10" Contenders becomes a revolver and where we find the obsolescence of the $5K Olympic Free rifle deferred to the $500 Ruger stock Blackhawk. If only they knew.

Take Care

Bob

[35remington]

I've wondered that myself. Accurization services like Clark performs should have zero demand given the zillions of half inch fifty yard revolvers out there.

[cbrick]

How many shooting ranges doe you know of that is being overrun with shooters of that caliber?
We are now being realistic about reality and how it is perceieved and our perception of reality and realistic.

You have missed the point of my post completely and totally. Obviously the shooters doing that have years of practice and a strong desire to be able to do it and they have sent an unimaginable amount of ammo down range. IE they WORKED mighty hard to get there. That is NOT the point of the post.

They ARE USING STOCK OUT OF THE BOX REVOLVERs TO DO IT. That IS the point of my post. Too many people posting in this thread that the revolver cannot do it. There are far too many people that are doing it with STOCK revolvers to begin to think the gun is incapable.

So why do people make such posts? Very simply because they cannot do it and since it couldn't possibly be them it just has to be gun.

A poor mechanic ALWAYS blames his tools.

Rick

[35remington]

Can I shoot half an inch at fifty for averages? Sure....but not with a stock revolver, nor has anyone I've witnessed or heard of.

Feel free to prove your gun capable.

Absolutely unarguable point....nearly ALL stock revolvers are not capable of doing so.

Realism is often unkind. It is also better to gauge your revolver by.

[44MAG#1]

The KEY word that all this rests on is REALITY. While it is a REALITY that some can do it does not mean it is a realistic and commonplace occurance. I have been a member of a club that has had some high master class bullseye shooters that and have not seen the place being overrun with the half-inch guys.
THat is like saying: just because a certain driver can take a certain curve at 80 MPH in a curve hugging car that the majority of drivers can do it. Even in the same car. Glad that speed,limits are not set by the best of the best or the worst or the worst drivers.
Now let's talk realistic accuracy standards.

[45 2.1]

You have missed the point of my post completely and totally. Obviously the shooters doing that have years of practice and a strong desire to be able to do it and they have sent an unimaginable amount of ammo down range. IE they WORKED mighty hard to get there. That is NOT the point of the post.

They ARE USING STOCK OUT OF THE BOX REVOLVERs TO DO IT. That IS the point of my post. Too many people posting in this thread that the revolver cannot do it. There are far too many people that are doing it with STOCK revolvers to begin to think the gun is incapable.

So why do people make such posts? Very simply because they cannot do it and since it couldn't possibly be them it just has to be gun.

A poor mechanic ALWAYS blames his tools.

Rick

Rick, I think you have summed up the situation very well, especially the part I highlighted in blue. Most arguements here revolve around the same premise. Those that can (natural talent and those that work hard and persevere) and those that can't (the folks that haven't tried enough or long enough.... some of which usually end trying to buy there expertise with custom pistols guaranteed to shoot well) who have to blame something other than themselves.

[45 2.1]

The KEY word that all this rests on is REALITY.

Reality is demonstrated by the bell shaped distribution curve, straight out of a Statistics textbook. What it says in a very large sample, some people couldn't hit the barn from inside it to those that can drive the nails deeper in the boards with everybody else in between. Look it up, you might get some insight from it. Same thing happens with most things made by humans. And if you shoot a lot, some things get easier...... of course, you need to shoot enough to do that... and some folks don't.

[44MAG#1]

Statistic can be manipulated to show anything the gatherer wants to prove.
Now if one could prove that the majority of gun clubs are being over run with the Half-Inch guys by an entity that has nothing to prove either way I would say that Half-Inch guns and shooters are realistic.
Now, I know that isn't going to be proven so until it is it is not realistic. Maybe a reality since it has and can be done but not realistic.

[M-Tecs]

The quickest way I have found to get to reality is friendly little wagers. I have done this with long range claims and the grouping ability of rifles I build. Normally I like to put up a hundred dollars but I have going down as low a twenty to prove a point.

As a firearm and hunting enthusiast I often hear claims of shooting deer at a 1,000 yard etc. As a long range competitor I have access to a surveyed 1,000 yard range. When I hear bubba making these claims I make a wager and invite them out to the range. Through the years I have had only had three takers. Out the three two just handed me the money when they saw what a surveyed 1,000 yards looked like. The third did put a round down range but judging from the trace he hit the 200 yard berm. Some of the guys I compete with can make this shot often enough that I would never bet against them.

On the flipped side I build match rifles on the side. If I state it’s a ½ minute gun I am more than willing to put my money where my mouth is. I have had four takers on AR Match Rifles. I am up $400. Rules are 5 shots at a 100 yards with wind 7 mph or less. We both tape a c-note to the target and any targets ½” or less I keep. Anything over ½” they keep.

How does this apply to the subject at hand? I will make the same wager to any and all takers. Let’s do 10 targets at 50 yards using open sight stock revolvers for 5 shot groups. We will tape a c-note to each target. Anything over a ½”I get to keep. Anything a ½” or under you get keep.

2014 IHMSA world result, targets and rules below.

2014 world results http://www.ihmsa.org/2014-world-championship-results.html (http://www.ihmsa.org/2014-world-championship-results.html)

IHMSA targets http://www.ihmsa.org/targets/ (http://www.ihmsa.org/targets/) and http://competitions.nra.org/news-and-events/silhouette-programs.aspx

Rules http://ihmsa.org/uploads/3/1/0/9/3109400/2014_official_rules.pdf (http://ihmsa.org/uploads/3/1/0/9/3109400/2014_official_rules.pdf) G. Tie-Breakers and Shoot-offs

[35remington]

As I said, I'm half inch capable at fifty with a scoped Contender and all the rest I can get.

What I and most other experienced pistol shooters likely have a problem with is suggesting half an inch at fifty is possible as averages with stock guns even with unlimited skills as the revolvers themselves can't do it

Sorry to break this incredibly obvious bit of information here....but they just can't. . In terms of revelations this is like saying the beach is often sandy.

Truly realistic expectations do not make the virtually never seen the norm. Many here would do well to remember that......and their claims would seem a whole lot more believable. The average intelligence of this board is higher than that.

Some must figure this usually goes unchallenged but that is a disservice on a thread like this.

[cbrick]

Statistic can be manipulated to show anything the gatherer wants to prove.
Now if one could prove that the majority of gun clubs are being over run with the Half-Inch guys by an entity that has nothing to prove either way I would say that Half-Inch guns and shooters are realistic.
Now, I know that isn't going to be proven so until it is it is not realistic. Maybe a reality since it has and can be done but not realistic.

Here's something very realistic for you. The mantle over my fireplace.

It has about a dozen National Championship trophies sitting on it. I EARNED them by working hard for years and using stock revolvers to do it.

Now instead of a lame attempt at convincing others and probably yourself that revolvers cannot do it I suggest you try the alternative. Work at it at 200 meters. Work even harder on your loads. Send 300-400 rounds down range every week for say the next 5-7 years. Until you make the effort and do the work yourself you have no basis for your claims other than YOU cannot do it.

Until you do that your right, not only is it unrealistic it is impossible. Well for the shooter, the revolver is right there waiting for you.

Rick