The Back Position

[ResearchPress]

I've added an overview of the back (or supine) position illustrated with 19th century images and photographs of modern riflemen. If you look at the page, scroll to the very bottom picture which shows a photograph from 1899 at Sea Girt - as best I can work out from the rifleman's hand position he is using his thumb to fire the rifle! Any thoughts?

See: The Back Position (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/longrange/181-backposition)

David

[NSB]

I can't see where he's using his thumb to fire the rifle. His thumb is on top of the tang and no fingers are in the trigger guard.

[Boz330]

NSB the last picture in the series.
Sure looks as though that is the case. I would think that using the thumb would take a lot of practice to get use to especially when you use the index finger for every other firearm.

Bob

[ResearchPress]

I can't see where he's using his thumb to fire the rifle. His thumb is on top of the tang and no fingers are in the trigger guard.
Compare the very last picture in the series with the one of Henry Fulton immediately above it. In the lower picture the shooter's hand is bent backwards such that his fingers are placed over the wrist of the stock - he does not have the straight wrist position of Fulton who clearly is using his finger to pull the trigger.

David

[Nobade]

That first picture doesn't look like it would work too well! I agree, the last one with the Trapdoor does look like he's firing with his thumb.

Funny thing about the back gun position - when I was a little kid I couldn't hold up or reach the trigger on a long rifle. But wanted to shoot it! So I figured out I could hold it like that and shoot quite effectively. Had to get a grownup to load it for me, then I could shoot. Only many years later did I find out people really did hold rifles like that.

-Nobade

[Dan Cash]

The shooter is using his thumb and probably doing so to overcome a flinch. I have seen a Springfield sporter with a thumb trigger, though that is not the situation in the picture in question. In my own case, I flinch when shooting right handed. If I use a finger other than my right index finger, the flinch is reduced. If I shoot left handed, the flinch is gone.

[ResearchPress]

Just remembered a photograph of Sir Henry Halford from 1893 and included that with some small amount of additional text.

I knew a gentlemen who shot long range muzzle loading into his 90's. (He's the top shooter in the two colour photos). He couldn't shoot prone anymore, but from his back was fine and said it absorbed the recoil well.

David

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The back position was and probably is very popular in British match-rifle shooting, although a discipline requiring 1000 and 1200 yard ranges has inevitably declined in popularity. It is also a very useful position for hunting, in situations where you have to fire downhill, provided that your rifle is long enough to avoid fetching off a toe. My formative years were spent on land where the tops were the best place to get around surreptitiously, and rabbits and hares were almost always lower down. With a conventionally mounted scope the trick is to aim while merely reclining, then sag back to assume the position while keeping the target in the diminished field of view.

The thumb is on the inside of the human hand as usually constituted, and I think the man in that last photograph is unlikely to be pulling the trigger with his little finger. Probably he was photographed while settling the rifle into the right position, and would have switched to a more conventional position a moment later.

The interesting thing about the picture of Sir Henry Halford's thumb is that he actually has one, or at least most of it. During the trials for a replacement of the Snider he was chambering a round in the Carter Edwards rifle, an excessively early bolt action, when it went off before the bolt was locked. It removed a piece of his thumb, and created a prejudice against bolt actions. Understandable as this was at the time, his great influence in smallarms circles weighed heavily against better designs than the Carter Edwards ready for development, such as the Mauser, which would be adopted by Prussia in the same year as the Martini-Henry. As a single shot there was nothing much wrong with this, but the Mauser was readily adapted to a magazine, and the Martini couldn't be, lending added urgency to the adoption of a new rifle in the late 80s.

Dizzy in the cartoon is Disraeli, the Prime Minister, and the positions referred to are really political ones. This was quite unfair, since he borrowed money on his own initiative to buy a controlling share in the Suez Canal while Parliament was closed, and he wore Bismarck down in the Congress of Vienna.

[ResearchPress]

With the apparent smoke, I had taken it that the rifle had just been fired. Given that he has the rifle so far back and his hand supporting the butt he may have had difficulty holding the stock in conventional manner? The engravings of Halford and Fulton both show this position (with the exception of hand placement) being used with a tang mounted rear sight. The original caption for the Sea Girt picture was simply "Firing From Prone Position".

Thanks for pointing out the political satire - I should have noticed that! The other name used, Hartington, also gives a clue - the Marquess of Hartington was Leader of the Liberal Party.

Also just remembered the 1875 satire of American, Irish, English and Scottish riflemen by C.M. Vergnes for Courrier & Ives, and added that to the page.

With reference to Halford reportedly he wasn't enamoured with the Martini-Henry, referring to it as "that beastly weapon".

David

[bedbugbilly]

Over the years, I have seen a number of things written on this position. I've even tried it when I was a lot younger than I am now (I'm talking young kid) and learning to shoot original muzzle-loaders.

One thing I noticed from personal experience is that it is a big difference shooting a long barreled rifle (in my case, a flint lock with a 40" + barrel) versus a shorter barreled rifle (I tried with 22s and a chopped off 45/70 trapdoor that I once owned).

Not knocking this position in any way - my thoughts are though that you really need to practice and pay attention to what you are doing - on a short barrel rifle the muzzle is behind you feet - screw up or paying attention to your "style" and not your foot position could cost you a toe! I have seen others shoot in this position as well and the one thing I noticed is that everyone has their own "position" for their legs and supporting the rifle that works best for them.

Interesting article and illustrations - thanks for posting!

[M-Tecs]

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/longrange/181-backposition

Finally, pictured below is an unusual variant where the rifleman appears to be using his thumb to fire the rifle. Compare the hand position with that shown in the above picture of H. Fulton. In the picture below the rifleman's hand is bent backwards and his fingers are over the top of wrist of the stock. This picture is from the US range at Sea Girt in 1899.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

With the apparent smoke, I had taken it that the rifle had just been fired. Given that he has the rifle so far back and his hand supporting the butt he may have had difficulty holding the stock in conventional manner? The engravings of Halford and Fulton both show this position (with the exception of hand placement) being used with a tang mounted rear sight. The original caption for the Sea Girt picture was simply "Firing From Prone Position".

Thanks for pointing out the political satire - I should have noticed that! The other name used, Hartington, also gives a clue - the Marquess of Hartington was Leader of the Liberal Party.

Also just remembered the 1875 satire of American, Irish, English and Scottish riflemen by C.M. Vergnes for Courrier & Ives, and added that to the page.

With reference to Halford reportedly he wasn't enamoured with the Martini-Henry, referring to it as "that beastly weapon".

David

You could be right about his just having fired, but that smoke seems consistent with its being taken a second or two after firing, and there surely wouldn't be enough leverage in the tip of the thumb, extended under the hand, for most triggers. For a set trigger possibly. I thought the main point of that position would have been to get the eye the conventional, front-position distance from the rear sight.

I think Halford's condemnation of the Martini-Henry was aimed more at Henry's barrel than von Martini's action. The angular rifling design made sharpening the rifling tool easier, and probably could impart a lot more torque to the bullet than it needed. Metford successfully span a bullet with the "rifling" made with coarse emery powder on a lead lap, although that would soon have eroded away, even with black powder. Henry's rifling trapped fouling far more than other designs, and some of the Martinis used at Rorke's drift cooked off rounds and glowed visibly in the dark.

Assessing actions and barrels separately seems like a fine idea. But I have seen Henry's entry for the barrels trial, in the Kelvingrove Art Galleries museum in Glasgow. It is a very specialized heavy, round-barreled muzzle-loader, with short forend and no ramrod. The committee appear not to have grasped how ramming a patched bullet down the barrel reduced the fouling problem.

Part of the problem was that Metford, the leading barrel designer of the time, submitted no entry for the trials. He had fallen out with the government when they refused to pay him royalties on his exploding bullet for the Snider, on the grounds that the empty cavity, to improve accuracy, didn't actually explode. He only got back into government work with the rifling we now call Metford type, for the aborted .402 Martini of 1886, and the Lee-Metford, although the segmental rifling of the Lee-Enfield was also his work.

[Dan4570]

In you first photo he is using a finger, trigger finger in the sketch.
Not shure about the other photo posted up, I cant say, it does appears that his luck apparently held, and I see no holes in his feet !! (always a good thing)

I have attempted some of the odd ball 19th century shooting positions, I decided I liked my toes where they are, and I don't want to be the chuckle-head explaining in the ER how I managed to put a round ball, or bullet ranging from 200, 230, 250, 400, or 500 grns of soft lead bullet through the top of my foot ( I like 45 cal)....of course you have to explain again to the cops (shooting ! have to file a report) and again to your boot repair guy,,,,your friends,(followed by years and years of heckling) and yes the wife. (I am not sure which of the last 2 would be the worst !!!)

If you try it good luck, I gave up some of that old stuff. Very odd feeling on your leg and foot as that bullet flies by. Recoil can be odd too. and some of the old target handgun positions are just plain scary!! (I will not atempt them again unless it is life or death and I have no other choice)
If you must try this set one foot flat on the ground, knee bent, cross your other leg, placing your ankle on the back of your other knee, this will help you prevent unwanted holes and well......... see list of explanations because I was a knuckle head above and now there is a large hole in my foot!! Rest the stock of the rifle at a angle from your shoulder across your ankle and the muzzle should extend away from your knee, body, and feet. Prop up your upper body slightly to sight the rifle. This is the safest way I have found for a supine shooting position. not bad with a .22 or my 45 colt Uberti 66 rifle.

The prone is much safer, and easier to do. If your too round in the middle for prone, (hey, no laughing it happens !) find a low spot for your belly.

Later, hope this helped.

Dan

PS: If ya do it as pictured and miss....ie.. hit yer foot....please take video for the rest of us to watch. I hate to miss a good YouTube worthy moment. I promise, for every wise crack we will pass along, there we be just as many get well soon wishes.

[Keith]

Here is an Aussie shooting at the World Creedmoor in Brisbane in 2006.
Keith
http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad232/123rover50/shooting/Creedmoorno2001_zpscb87dc0f.jpg (http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/shooting/Creedmoorno2001_zpscb87dc0f.jpg.html)

[.22-10-45]

That last pic seems safe enough..but I do notice alot of black stained grass in front of muzzle when shooting prone..wonder what that guys boot looks like at end of match?