breech seating

[Catch]

Being new on this forum I am curious if any of you have tried breech seating your bullets when shooting targets and using the same case each time by simply decapping and repriming it. If nothing else it is supposed to eliminate the difference between cases. I have tried it wih my old Siles Sharpes and it seems to improve the groups somewhat. I don't believe they make a gun now that has the toggle on the frame to attach a breech seating tool. I made one from a brass rod and old fired case and use it with a wooden mallet to gently tap the bullet slightly into the rifling. I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Catch

[zane]

Hello Catch----
Breech seating is an interesting subject; the most important part is the bullet shape, many of the bullets for breech seating are tapered. The base of the bullet is a .002 over groove diameter tapering in steps to bore diameter. The bullet is seated a 16th or so ahead of the case with a breech seater then fired with a loaded case. Breech seaters and tapered molds are made by a number of people, try the ASSRA site for more information. Schuetzen shooters almost all breech seat, the best shooters can keep all there shots in the 200 yard 25 ring, it is 1 1/2 inches in width. Bob

[Buckshot]

..................Breech seating is most commonly done on those rifles having exposed breeches. While taping the boolit into the lands will work, it also has the possible negative effect of expanding the base. If expanded unevenly most of your accuracy potential is out the window.

I have a friend who breech seats his slugs sometimes. I don't know why as he doesn't compete in schuetzen benchrest. Maybe as just something different? He has a Hi-Wall in 32-40 and made up a cam affair that fits against the rear of the breech block mortice. I've also seen claws added to the top of an action to receive the handle pivit for a breech seating lever.

I'm sure someone probably makes these for the various suitable rifles used for this take loading. However, not being a participant or practitioner, I couldn't point to anyone. I did read that even during the heyday of breechseating, Harry Pope was still a big fan of loading the slug from the muzzle and then running it down the barrel. He flt this was a much better method.

................Buckshot

[DonH]

"Breech seating is most commonly done on those rifles having exposed breeches. While taping the boolit into the lands will work, it also has the possible negative effect of expanding the base. If expanded unevenly most of your accuracy potential is out the window"

Breech seating when properly done is NOT done by tapping the bullet at all but, rather by pushing the bullet into the throat with one of several types of tool made for the purpose. A bullet of correct dimensions will not distort on the base when breech seated.


"He has a Hi-Wall in 32-40 and made up a cam affair that fits against the rear of the breech block mortice. I've also seen claws added to the top of an action to receive the handle pivit for a breech seating lever. I'm sure someone probably makes these for the various suitable rifles used for this take loading."

This statement is correct. There are gents who make the various tool required for bullet seating and re/de-caping, etc. They can be found at the ASSRA website forum.

"However, not being a participant or practitioner, I couldn't point to anyone. I did read that even during the heyday of breechseating, Harry Pope was still a big fan of loading the slug from the muzzle and then running it down the barrel. He flt this was a much better method."


Harry Pope, and George Schalk before him, believed in the breech/muzzle loading method where the bullet was seated from the muzzle and the case inserted from the breech. I believe this method of loading pre-dated breech-seating. Pope and his rifles enjoyed a great deal of success but rifles built by proponents of the more traditional breech seating method competed on an equal basis and also won their share of fame.
The Schalk/Pope method involved a choke lapped into the bore, thus a bullet seated from the muzzle arrived at the throat area of the bore ever-so-slightly undersized. This was fine as Schalk used straight black powder and Pope used the early bulk semi-smokeless powder with a black powder igniter charge. Either would, upon ignition, deliver a blow to the base of the bullet which would upset the lead and seal the bore. A properly fitted breech seated bullet will completely seal the throat when seated thus eliminating the liklihood of gas cutting of the bullet base by smokeless powder.

I personally know of no one using the Pope method of loading today though that is not to say no one does. I believe this (obscurity of the Pope method) to be due to the burning characteristics of smokeless powder. The very first time I fired a schuetzen rifle, I had the privilege of firing a Pope Stevens single shot belonging to an older gentleman who competed with the rifle using tools made by Pope to cast bullets and load the rifle. Of note is the fact that he used every implement Pope made for the rifle except for the false muzzle, because he seated the bullet from the breech. By the way, the caliber was .28-30 Stevens.

The breech-seating and muzzle/breech loading methods of loading rifles were developed during a time when manufacturing methods left much to be desired when it came to chambering rifle barrels. Either of these methods of loading got around chamber/throat problems by seating the bullet in the chamber throat to avoid the jump from a case resting in a mis-aligned chamber into the rifling. A modern benchrest-precision chamber could make all this unnecessary and still deliver match-winning accuracy but one will have to sort out the variables of neck tension, etc.

Don Howe

[xtimberman]

Catch, I'm new here too, but I've been shooting the old guns for many years usin the breech-seating method for target accuracy.

My favorite homemade breechseaters are fashioned from old wood-handled screwdrivers. This doesn't always work because a sight or other protrusion might get in the way of a straight line seater, but it works OK on a couple of my rifles if I turn down the tang sight.

I had a drawer full of various old screwdrivers with different sized handles and shafts and boogered-up tips. I would choose one with a shaft long enough for desired clearance and of appropriate size for the case. Then I would grind down the tip to fit inside the primer pocket and solder it on. A hardwood dowel segment can be tightly fitted into the case as a plug to seat the bullet to your desired depth.

If you use an old screwdriver with a nice big hand-filling grip and a bullet of proper size and alloy, you won't have to do all of that tapping - you can get a good grip and shove it ahead of the case, and be less likely to damage the base of the bullet.

[StrawHat]

I had a drawer full of various old screwdrivers with different sized handles and shafts and boogered-up tips. I would choose one with a shaft long enough for desired clearance and of appropriate size for the case. Then I would grind down the tip to fit inside the primer pocket and solder it on. A hardwood dowel segment can be tightly fitted into the case as a plug to seat the bullet to your desired depth.

If you use an old screwdriver with a nice big hand-filling grip and a bullet of proper size and alloy, you won't have to do all of that tapping - you can get a good grip and shove it ahead of the case, and be less likely to damage the base of the bullet.

xtimberman,

How about a photo?

[4060MAY]

Top one is a push seater made from a case and a screwdriver, a button is attached to a screw thread with lock nut for depth of bullet adjustment, for 40-60 on a Rolling Block
next is a Russ Weber seater for 32-40 on a Ruger No.1
next is one i made for a 30-06 Ruger No.1
right is a Pope style de and re capper made by a guy in Indiana
similar to the one BACO sells.

one consideration in using a breach seater, the bullet will seat easier with softer alloys, ww are a little harder to use than 20-1 even tho the BHN is about the same

the throat should be set up for the bullet used

[xtimberman]

StrawHat,

I'll do that tonight. My wife is the picture-taker and poster, so I'll ask her to help me figure it out.

Mine are a whole lot simpler than 4060's. His top one is made from a screwdriver, too, but puts mine to shame!

xtm

[xtimberman]

Here is a photo of loading tools for a .32-35 Maynard. One of my screwdriver-handled bullet breechseaters is in the middle. Since the Maynard is a tip-up, the shaft of the seater can be short and straight. Also, due to the relatively small size of the case and caliber, I used a small screwdriver. For a .40-63 and a .45-70, I used proportionately larger screwdrivers.

The other small items are old-time Maynard tools: .32 cal. wad punch, Maynard straight-line seating tool for properly seating bullets in the case, and on the bottom, a Hadley patent re & de-capper for boxer-primed .32-35 everlasting cases. An old cast iron Ideal #5 powder measure is in the background - hard to beat for handling black powder charges.

xtm

[buckstix]

Anyone know of a mechanical breech seater for an original 44-1/2 stevens rifle?

[xtimberman]

I've never seen one on an original that wasn't modified. There're no mortice cuts or studs inside the breech or outside of the action to get leverage on.

One of the breechseater models Ideal sold 100+ years ago for use in Stevens 44 1/2s looks very much like the top one in 4060's pic.

He's correct about that alloy thing, too. A bullet of proper alloy and size will breechseat much easier than one that's oversized and with too much tin or any antimony in the mix. Don't waste your time trying to breechseat some of those Lasercast .32-40 bullets from Oregon trail, you'll have to pound 'em in and be somewhat concerned about a pressure spike, IMO. Those are primarily meant to be seated in the case and loaded into leverguns for Cowboy shooters - and work fine in that manner.

xtm

[buckstix]

Yes, I'm familiar with typical breech seating .. I use a soft 25:1 pure lead to tin for all my bullets in all my rifles. I've had real good success with that mix.

I have typically used the Russ Webber Seater (I've got 9 of them) and I really like them, but he doesn't make one for an original Stevens 44-1/2 ... (only for the modern repro)

If anyone has one for sale that will work for my rifle ... drop me a note ..

http://members.aol.com/buckstix/buckpics/pope7a.jpg

http://members.aol.com/buckstix/buckpics/pope7b.jpg

[4060MAY]

Buckstix
when Jerry D. comes back from Florida, I will take a picture of his seater. He uses a plugged case and the modified sight base to push against. similar to the one I use on my Ruger, except he made the pivot screw for the sight longer and to hook on

[xtimberman]

Your excellent photos jogged my memory. I have seen a modern mechanical one for Stevens 44s and 44 1/2s and it levers against the front of the tang sight and a long front screw extension. I'll have to ask around and research old SSRN letters to see if I can get the name of who made them.

I might get pretty hinkey about marring the tang and sight base of that rifle, though.

xtm

[xtimberman]

Buckstix,

This is as close as I'm gonna come to having any Stevens-Pope Schuetzen equipment. HeHeHe!

xtm

[buckstix]

Cool ... would you be interested in selling?



Buckstix,

This is as close as I'm gonna come to having any Stevens-Pope Schuetzen equipment. HeHeHe!

xtm

[xtimberman]

Nope, sorry....... besides, it's a .32-35 and unlikely to work with your rifle anyway - probably the wrong cartridge base - don't think too many S-Ps were ordered in that cartridge - the CFs I've seen were most often .32 & .33-40s, with a few .28-30s and various .38/.39s thrown in.


xtm

[4060MAY]

go here http://www.meachamrifles.com/
look under reloading tools/ pope re-decapper
$99.00 plus whatever

There is a guy in Indiana that makes an exact copy of the Pope tool.
if I can find his name and phone number I will PM it to you.

[xtimberman]

Jerry Simmons
17 Middlebury St.
Goshen,IN 46528

Simmons re-de-capping tools

I think buckstix wants original Stevens-Pope tools to match his original rifle/cartridge. They can be hard to find.


xtm

[buckstix]

Yes, I'd like originals. I collect vintage re-decappers. Anyone have any for sale?

[nitroproof]

A question about breech seating...
I like XTIMBERMAN's home made seater. My Whitney rolling block will allow a straight in approach so I'm gonna make one like his.
Here's my question: How deep do I need to seat the boolit (tapered Saeco 38/55)?

[xtimberman]

How deep do I need to seat the boolit (tapered Saeco 38/55)?

I don't know what type of propellant you're using, but you'll probably need to experiment with different seating depths to see what your rifle-powder-bullet combination prefers.

IMO, a good starting point is 1/64" ahead of a case that has been fireformed to perfectly fit the chamber.

One of my screwdriver-handled seaters uses a lathe-turned brass plug set perfectly flush with the mouth of the case - the others use a little segment of fitted wooden dowelling sticking out ~1/64"-1/32". The wooden plugs seem to be just as good for the task as the brass one.

xtm

[Dale53]

Buckstyx;
I have a CPA Stevens 44½ and I use a plugged cartridge case to breech seat. The rocking action of the Stevens designed action easily seats a 20/1 or 25/1 lead/tin cast bullet.

With my Peregrine actioned schuetzen rifle, I use a "conventional" breech seater that operates against the breech block mortise and seats a 25/1 bullet almost effortlessly.

Dale53

[nitroproof]

OK all you breech seaters...I've made my breech seater tool. Now...

How do I or do I need to put something to hold the powder against the primer? I'm planning to try breech seating this coming Saturday morning.
I have a .38 cal punch and lots of news print discs. Would one of these work to hold it in place?
Have been shooting SR-4759 (15.8 gr) in my regular loads, planning to try this same load.

Am I on the right track? :confused:

Thanks

[leftiye]

So how do y'all think a freebored chamber of boolit bearing area length would perform as compared to breech seating? Say freebore was boolit diameter plus .0002", and boolit diameter was groove diameter plus .001" (or .002")? Sounds like it might be great with a 38-55.

[4060MAY]

Catch
I have never put a wad against the powder.
I use floral foam about 1/4" thick pushed into the end of the case to keep from dumping powder into the action.
I'm using WC680, and a load into a Ruger is a real pain to get out.
I use SR4759 in my 38-50 with fixed ammo and haven't seen the need for a wad.

[calaloo]

DO NOT PLACE A WAD AGAINST THE POWDER. It has been proven that when the wad is pushed back to hold the powder against the primer that chamber ringing can result. I use floral foam purchased at Wally World and sliced into 1/8 inch sheets on a band saw. There is at least 2 kinds of floral foam. The kind you want turns to ash when burnt. The other kind melts into a blob. The stuff that I buy comes in a shrink wrap package with three blocks that are each about 3 inches cubed. Another commonly used material is cork cut from a sheet about 1/16 thick. You might want to cut some wads from a milk carton to place at the bullet base. This will keep the powder granules from sandblasting (powderblasting?) the base of the bullet and may improve accuracy.

Bill

[nitroproof]

My "prototype" breech seater (straight push type) looked good and worked at the reloading bench trials, but the hickory plug was actually too short and pushed 1/16" into the case at the range! It will work as a bullet inserter thought.

So... I made a new one (glued the plug) and will try breeching seating next trip to the range. Will round up some Floral Foam in the meantime to cork up my pre charged cases.

Did have about 40 fixed loads so I did do some shooting. Am finding that the harder boolits work better than my 30:1 lead/tin alloy with smokeless. Haven't shot "Holy Black" in the .38/55 in years... may have an application for those 30:1 Lee 379-250-RF boolits rather than the pot for making .45/70 slugs :-D