What do I have?

[beagle]

Maybe, kinda off topic but I didn't know where to put it so here goes. Was breakfasting with the guys this morning and one of the guys knew that I was hunting a ML shotgun for a mantle hanger so he brought forth one. I'm looking to see what it is.

Double barrel, 12 gauge, percussion, ML. In great condition for its age. Stock grip and forend is checkered. Side plate and tang is engraved. No cracks in stock and metal looks all right (normal patina).

Only marking that has emerged so far is Mills on the sideplates. I haven't attempted a clean up at all so there may be more markings.

I found one 10 gauge double on Gunbroker similar to it.

What have I got? Who made it and how old is it? Any help appreciated./beagle

[HiVelocity]

A "Wall Hanger"! Lol!

Doug, you need to put up some photos; folks need to see all the sideplate info.

HV

[beagle]

I'll try and get the wife to make some and I'll post them. Can't find much on the net on Mills percussion guns. From the checkering and scrolling and the age, I'm guessing this wasn't your run of the mill trade gun./beagle


A "Wall Hanger"! Lol!

Doug, you need to put up some photos; folks need to see all the sideplate info.

HV

[elk hunter]

Are there any proof marks on the bottom of the barrels? If so describe them. That will give you country of origin. If there are none it is most likely made in America.

[beagle]

Haven't had time to attempt disassembly yet. Further use of oil and elbow grease has uncovered the letters Scott & Son along with "London finest twist wire" on the rib.

Mills is what is throwing me on the side of the locks.

Looks as if this gun was made in maybe Birmingham and supplied to a dealer in the US and he had his name placed on the locks. The sidelocks, hammer, tang and trigger guard is covered with what looks like factory engraving.

I'll have to get my old shooting partner to disassemble it as he's into that stuff and I'm afraid I'll bust something through ignorance.

No pictures yet. The photographer is engaged in a shopping frenzy right now./beagle

[andy h]

W&C Scott & son was a london gunmaker from the late 1800's

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It will be very useful when the pictures come. I haven't seen a thing so far that is inconsistent with this being a genuine British or American shotgun, or a copy. A reproduction W&C Scott guncase label on eBay gives the founding of their company as 1834, and the amalgamation to form Webley and Scott came in 1897. So even if the son came in later, the chances are that the name was "W&C Scott and Son" in the muzzle-loading period. But the Belgians, or their importers in other countries, were notorious for putting spurious names on their guns. WW Greener won one or two well publicized lawsuits over that, although I know of someone getting a Greener into Australia duty free because the customs man knew for a fact that "Greener" was a name you find on cheap Belgian guns.

The two names Mills and Scott are puzzling. I don't know of any gunmaker named Mills, but it was common practice for guns built in the Birmingham trade to be marked with the names of small-town "gunmakers" who didn't actually make guns. Guns with prestigious names were sometimes bought in from the trade, and even some well known gunmakers would supply guns to be sold under other names. My sidelock Gibbs bears a number prefix showing that it was "partly bought in", and Ian Crudgington, who now trades extremely professionally under the Gibbs name, thinks the barrels were made by Webley. Locks could easily be made by an outside lockmaking firm, and some crossed the Atlantic between workshop and gun. But while these might well be marked by the maker, it would probably be inside the lockplate.

Such guns would normally have only one name, though, and "Mills" would probably come with a first name or initial, and a location. It is a whole lot easier to replace parts with a muzzle loader than a breech loader. So maybe someone replaced the locks, or had badly pitted or dented barrels replaced by Scott, which was quite a conventional thing to do at the time, and shouldn't be considered any kind of fakery.

The economics of engraving weren't what they have since become. Greener, in his book, considers even British engraving to be a relatively modest cost added to a gun. The Belgians in particular, with no goldfields or Western lands for disgruntled employees to decamp to, had long-term skilled labour at very low cost, and did a lot by hand for which machines were used elsewhere. Some of their engraving is very crude, but not all. I have a 24ga shotgun by the Anciens Etablissements Pieper, which comes in around the top end of factory gunmaking, and the pheasants look more like pheasants than real pheasants do. Even more interestingly, the gun bears the Liege proof house year letter for 1923, and yet the pheasants are virtually identical to those in their 1911 catalogue. Some very bad years for Liege had intervened, so either their pheasants man had come back, or they had an extraordinary copyist.

Proofmarks can tell you a lot. British or Belgian guns will usually have them, but possibly hidden from view. Possibly the best quality firearm I possess, not excluding the Gibbs, is a Bohemian muzzle-loading rifle, with Damascus barrels of a very fine and deeply etched pattern which is more continental than British. Under the barrel it has Belgian proofmarks, probably referring to an early proof on the unfinished tubes.

It isn't difficult to remove the barrels from most percussion shotguns. There is likely to be a transverse key in the forend, and you simply push or tap the small end with something softer than steel, until it slides out. It should be unlosable, being held by a pin once it has gone past the lug under the barrels. Some guns require you to unscrew the tang behind the breechblock. But more often the tang is meant to stay in place, and the rear of the barrel simply unhooks from it. This is the point at which accidents used to happen, when people tried to put away a loaded and capped barrel in the case. If you drop it, it naturally falls heavy end down.

[beagle]

Hey buddy. Good to hear from you. Been some years now.

From my research, Scott & Son's markings changed to W Scott & Son and eventually into Webley & Scott. No doubt when I crack this thing open and can see any proof marks things will be come clearer. Right now, we still have company from the holidays and when they're clear, I'll get pictures. By then, maybe this cold weather will moderate some and I can get up to the shop and disassemble it and get pictures. I'll post more then.[

Thanks for the comments./beagle

QUOTE=Ballistics in Scotland;3071981]It will be very useful when the pictures come. I haven't seen a thing so far that is inconsistent with this being a genuine British or American shotgun, or a copy. A reproduction W&C Scott guncase label on eBay gives the founding of their company as 1834, and the amalgamation to form Webley and Scott came in 1897. So even if the son came in later, the chances are that the name was "W&C Scott and Son" in the muzzle-loading period. But the Belgians, or their importers in other countries, were notorious for putting spurious names on their guns. WW Greener won one or two well publicized lawsuits over that, although I know of someone getting a Greener into Australia duty free because the customs man knew for a fact that "Greener" was a name you find on cheap Belgian guns.

The two names Mills and Scott are puzzling. I don't know of any gunmaker named Mills, but it was common practice for guns built in the Birmingham trade to be marked with the names of small-town "gunmakers" who didn't actually make guns. Guns with prestigious names were sometimes bought in from the trade, and even some well known gunmakers would supply guns to be sold under other names. My sidelock Gibbs bears a number prefix showing that it was "partly bought in", and Ian Crudgington, who now trades extremely professionally under the Gibbs name, thinks the barrels were made by Webley. Locks could easily be made by an outside lockmaking firm, and some crossed the Atlantic between workshop and gun. But while these might well be marked by the maker, it would probably be inside the lockplate.

Such guns would normally have only one name, though, and "Mills" would probably come with a first name or initial, and a location. It is a whole lot easier to replace parts with a muzzle loader than a breech loader. So maybe someone replaced the locks, or had badly pitted or dented barrels replaced by Scott, which was quite a conventional thing to do at the time, and shouldn't be considered any kind of fakery.

The economics of engraving weren't what they have since become. Greener, in his book, considers even British engraving to be a relatively modest cost added to a gun. The Belgians in particular, with no goldfields or Western lands for disgruntled employees to decamp to, had long-term skilled labour at very low cost, and did a lot by hand for which machines were used elsewhere. Some of their engraving is very crude, but not all. I have a 24ga shotgun by the Anciens Etablissements Pieper, which comes in around the top end of factory gunmaking, and the pheasants look more like pheasants than real pheasants do. Even more interestingly, the gun bears the Liege proof house year letter for 1923, and yet the pheasants are virtually identical to those in their 1911 catalogue. Some very bad years for Liege had intervened, so either their pheasants man had come back, or they had an extraordinary copyist.

Proofmarks can tell you a lot. British or Belgian guns will usually have them, but possibly hidden from view. Possibly the best quality firearm I possess, not excluding the Gibbs, is a Bohemian muzzle-loading rifle, with Damascus barrels of a very fine and deeply etched pattern which is more continental than British. Under the barrel it has Belgian proofmarks, probably referring to an early proof on the unfinished tubes.

It isn't difficult to remove the barrels from most percussion shotguns. There is likely to be a transverse key in the forend, and you simply push or tap the small end with something softer than steel, until it slides out. It should be unlosable, being held by a pin once it has gone past the lug under the barrels. Some guns require you to unscrew the tang behind the breechblock. But more often the tang is meant to stay in place, and the rear of the barrel simply unhooks from it. This is the point at which accidents used to happen, when people tried to put away a loaded and capped barrel in the case. If you drop it, it naturally falls heavy end down.[/QUOTE]

[skeettx]

For fun, look here

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=percussion+shotgun

Once that barrels are off, see if it has any of these markings

http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

Good luck
Mike