Having trouble loading .45 ACP

[sparetime]

I am having some trouble with a .45 ACP load I'm trying to complete

I am considering getting into casting my own bullets, but I figured I'd buy some commercially produced bullets first and try them trough my 1911. I have a Sig 1911

I purchased two brands of cast bullets. Acme and SNS in 200 grain semi wadcutter. This is also my first time loading .45 ACP. Both boxes of bullets say they are sized to .452 diameter. I went through the normal case prep procedures, flared the cases and seated a bullet to 1.235 as shown in my Lyman manual. I then took apart the 1911 and tested fit the finished round in the barrel. Problem was the case wouldn't slide into the barrel (haven't purchased a case gauge yet for the finished round, but will be). It seems there is a slight budge on the side of the loaded case. A factory round slid in without any problem. My calipers seems to show the case with the cast bullet is very slightly larger than the factory round. Tried the other brand of bullet and had the same result.

I'm using a single stage press with Lee dies. My first thought is that the bullets are a little too big. Is it possible that I'd have to resize the bullets smaller before loading?

I do have a Lyman bullet sizer, but don't have any dies for it yet.

Do I need to slug the barrel? What should my next step be?

I tried adjusting the taper crimp without any change to round chambering. The die set is the 3 die set, without the factory crimp die. Would trying the factory crimp die make any difference? Do I need to slug the barrel or is there something else?

Wanted to start shooting lead because the bullets are cheaper and the 200 SWC is often an accurate round through this gun. I appreciate any help you can provide. I could also pick up some jacketed bullets and see if I'm still having the same problem.

[websterz]

The factory crimp die will make a huge difference. Once adjusted properly you'll wonder how you got along without it!

[Jupiter7]

Are you crimping and seating in same step. If so, 90 to nothing that's your issue. I haven run into a single 1911 that won't chamber a .452 bullet. Get a regular taper crimp die, skip the FCD it is a post fix to a pre issue.

[CPL Lou]

I would try adjusting my taper crimp a little tighter and see if that makes the difference.
I just loaded 700 rounds of 200 grain SWC's, all sized to .452" and they all passed the drop in test on my Brown match barrel without a hitch.
I seat to 1.245" and crimp separately
CPL Lou

[454PB]

If the factory crimp die makes them fit, you might as well just size the boolits smaller, because that's why it works.

I've owned a lot of various .45 ACP pistols, including at least 5 different makes/models of the 1911. All worked fine with boolits sized .452".

I suspect there may be something else wrong here. The first thing I'd check is seating depth......are these 200 gr. SWC's seated so the shoulder is nearly flush with the case mouth?

[sparetime]

The SWC's are seated so the shoulder is nearly flush with the case mouth.

Seems from other posts there is a lot of information about the Lee Dies and the factory crimp die. I'll do some reading on that.

[btroj]

Send a PM to either Mtgun44 or char-gar for some excellent advice. Those two can solve about any problems you have with a 45 ACP.

[BNE]

One more thing to check....

Is there any amount of lead scraping when you seat the bullet? If any lead is on top of the top edge of the brass, it will create the problem you described. Any amount of crimping will not fix this problem if you have lead on top of the brass. (trust me I've tried.) A lyman "M" die to open up and flare your brass will help. Seating the bullet and then taper crimping in two separate steps will help also.


Look at a bullet that does not fit. If you see lead bunched up, cut it out with a pocket knife and I'll bet it fits.

[35remington]

There is a great big thing you missed that is absolutely HOLLERING for your attention.

"I went through the normal case prep procedures, flared the cases and seated a bullet to 1.235 as shown in my Lyman manual. I then took apart the 1911 and tested fit the finished round in the barrel."

You said you flared the case, but you didn't mention taking the flare out. This is taken out with taper crimping. This is your problem.

As long as the bullet is seated with the shoulder of the bullet just above the case mouth a small amount, your issue is the flare.

[Fluxed]

You can't depend on a loading manual for overall length unless it is the exact same bullet. The bullets you are using should work just fine when seated to the correct length, but that is not the number in the manual. The place where the bullet should almost make contact in the chamber is the small shoulder of the bullet almost hitting the throat section of the chamber. As a good guess, there should only be a fingernail thickness of the bullet shoulder above the case mouth. Post a picture of the cartridges you've loaded.

[btroj]

There is a great big thing you missed that is absolutely HOLLERING for your attention.

"I went through the normal case prep procedures, flared the cases and seated a bullet to 1.235 as shown in my Lyman manual. I then took apart the 1911 and tested fit the finished round in the barrel."

You said you flared the case, but you didn't mention taking the flare out. This is taken out with taper crimping. This is your problem.

Dang it, forgot to mention this guy. He is a bit of a 45 ACP guru too.

[35remington]

Brad, gotta stop by over the holidays and see how the super lube recipes are going.

To the OP: The overall length that is suggested for the bullet you are using may be a bit incorrect. The operative thing is to have a bit of shoulder above the case mouth to provide a surface to taper crimp into and also provide a smooth, non snaggy transition from bullet to case.

If your bullets are of the "HG 68" type.....in other words, a longnosed SWC, proper overall length may be anywhere from your 1.235 to as long as 1.250."

It looks like the bullet in this link.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/45_acp_sig_sauer_p220%20and%20SWC%20ammunition.htm

If that's what yours look like, pay particular attention to the bullet shoulder/case mouth relationship. With some HG 68 designs or copies, 1.235" may prove to be a little short. A double thumbnail thickness of the bullet shoulder above the case mouth is about right for me.

[btroj]

Haven't made any lube in a while, the lathe keeps calling me. Heck, I cast a few bullets the other day, first I had cast in a couple months.

My 1911 drove me nuts until I messed with amount of taper crimp and OAL. Found a combination that works and just stuck with it.

[scattershot]

Two things to check: first make sure that you are removing the flare that you put in to seat the bullet, and if you are using once fired brass that you don't know where it came from, it could have been fired in a Glock or some other pistol that bulges the case at the base. Check to make sure that you are sizing the entire case. I had that problem once, and it drove me nuts until I figured it out.

good luck!

[jcren]

As a fellow rookie here, you have come to the right place for great info and support. I started out loading for the 45 and thought I may be able to pay forward the help I have received. Do the rounds not fit into the chamber at all or do they just not fit flush (out of battery)? Not fitting indicates a tight chamber and a smaller .451 bullet, thinner brass( I noticed Winchester bulges worst for me) or a Lee fcd should solve it. If it is not dropping flush, search "plunk test" here, easiest description I have found on setting oal to a given gun.

[35remington]

Finding what works well and sticking with it is the best plan there is. Nothing like doing the same thing the right way over and over.

[sparetime]

I backed the seating plug way out and played with more and more crimp until the round would chamber in my barrel. The crimp is noticeable at this point. However, there isn't any shoulder left, my fingernail doesn't catch when dragging it from the bullet shoulder along to the side of the case. The .45 ACP headspaces off the case month, so it seems I'm creating a problem by crimping this much.

[35remington]

Since crimp doesn't work to retain the bullet unless viciously applied, decide what you want it to do.

The case mouth would have to be well below .460" to preclude case mouth headspacing. For feeding, .470-.472" is enough. If you want to hold a lead bullet against movement, try .465." I don't figure the TC helps unless it is applied that much, so I go 470-.471" and let case grip hold the bullet.

Measure with calipers just below the case mouth to see what you've got.

[35remington]

Oh and by the way.......Do NOT taper crimp and seat in the same step! You will plow up lead while you're seating the bullet and cause other problems with chambering. Taper crimping should be applied in a separate step, most especially with cast bullets and any significant crimp.

Adjust your seating depth so some shoulder is present. Full cartridge chambering should occur with any case mouth diameter below about .472." Assuming the shoulder does not contact the leade early.

[prs]

The above mentioned and appearing Gurus helped me considerably when I first started with 45ACP. Try the plunk test with one of your empty, but full length sized cases. Should fit with the greatest of ease. In crimping, do leave the thumbnail or two of shoulder above the rim and crimp just enough to bring the case mouth back to the diameter of that part of the case occupied by the boolit plus the least bit more. Again use your thumb nail to check to be sure your crimp did NOT pooch out the lead ahead of your case mouth. Crimping to .472" as measured with a micrometer is usually enough. If I go much deeper than .470" the crimps pooch the boolits. If you are using new cases, you may need to chamfer the mouths inside and out just a bit to get rid of factory flash. Seating and crimping in one stage seems to be a most frustrating practice with cast boolits.


Hang in there, these guys will get Ya on track.

prs

[sparetime]

Thanks everyone for all the help.

Going to get the crimp die and give it a run another day.

[MtGun44]

THE MOST COMMON, BY FAR, problem with failure to close is total lack of,
or inadequate TAPER CRIMP, in a separate taper crimp die. In my
experience, about 85% of all failure to close problems are TC related.

Taper crimp to about .466 or so, regardless of the myriad recommendations
not to "overcrimp" by going tighter than "straightening out the flare." I have
never seen a valid explanation why "overcrimping" is a problem, especially
with commercial cast boolits, which are quite hard.

If you cannot seat the loaded round in the chamber fully with a 1 lb push with
finger tip, you need deeper seating of the boolit and/or tighter taper crimp.

H&G 68 at 1.250-1.260 with a taper crimp to about .466 at extreme case mouth
end will work in all 1911 chambers I have ever tested, even very tight match
chambers with very short throats. Most do fine with 1.260 but match chambers
often need 1.250, and there may be a few that require a bit shorter seating length,
perhaps 1.240 or even a hair less, but I have yet to run into one. .452 diameter is
right for most guns, but a few will like .451 better.

Strongly recommend NOT to buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die for this application, just
an ordinary taper crimp die.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

The 45 ACP round is very easy to load for a 1911 pistols. Your problem won't be the .452 diameter, but will be found in the seating and crimping of the bullet. If you would post a picture of the troublesome round, it would probably be a pretty easy diagnosis. Words are inadequate as they mean different things to different people and more often than not confuse rather than help.

Mtgun44 is correct about an incorrect taper crimp being the most common problem. For the umpteenth time, here is how to adjust a taper crimp die:

1. With a factory loaded 45 ACP round in the shell holder, raise the press ram to it's full heights.
2. Screw the taper crimp die down on top of the round as hard as you can, using your hand only and NO tools.
3. Set the lock ring on the die and you are done.

If you want to measure the case mouth and set the die by the numbers, then go ahead, but I don't worry about that. I just use good US produced factory ammo. I keep a round of USGI WCC 67 230 grain ball ammo with my dies just to set the taper crimp die. Works to perfection for me.

I also second the motion not to buy a FCD, just use a taper crimp.

The correct seating depth is no great mystery either. Just seat your chosen bullet until the base of the case is dead even with the end of the barrel hood. Make a dummy round without primer and powder to play with this. If the seated dummy round, will function in your magazine, you are good to go. Keep this dummy round with your dies should you ever need to readjust or if you change dies. Of course it is only good for that specific bullet in your specific handgun. Change bullets or handguns, then you need to make up a new dummy round.

An over belled case mouth will play hob with this stage of the process. If a sized and belled case won't go all the way into the chamber, you have over belled the case mouth.

I really like the Lyman M die system for this round. It does not bell the case mouth, just produces a short section a little larger than the bullet to start the bullet into the case without shaving lead when seating. Over belling issues cease to exist with this die. The older Lyman 310 expanding dies do the same thing.

Again, loading reliable and accurate cast bullet ammo for the 45 ACP 1911 is very simple, if a few basic steps are followed. Folks get into problems when they try and invent new ways of doing something that has been done for over 100 years. All the code was broken on loading this round way before our fathers were born, and I am 72 years old. I don't know why people keep trying to reinvent the wheel.

[DR Owl Creek]

... Problem was the case wouldn't slide into the barrel (haven't purchased a case gauge yet for the finished round, but will be). It seems there is a slight budge on the side of the loaded case. A factory round slid in without any problem. ...




Are you sure you're starting the bullets straight and evenly in the case? Not many seating dies will straighten out a bullet that is seated cock-eyed in the case. You can usually see a bulge where the bottom of the bullet is pressing out unevenly on one side of the case when the bullet is not seated straight.

Go back and read MtGun44's and Char-Gar's posts above. After that, go back and reread those two posts a few more times. They will give you your answer.

Forget the Lee FCD!!!!!

Dave

[62chevy]

I use the Lee FCD with great results. Yes I had to play with it to make sure it didn't swag the lead boolit down. The end result was well worth it. On the other hand no amount of adjusting would stop swaging my .380 boolits but then being cast at .359 has a lot to do with this. I'll buy a 357 sizing die to solve that problem.

[Char-Gar]

I use the Lee FCD with great results. Yes I had to play with it to make sure it didn't swag the lead boolit down. The end result was well worth it. On the other hand no amount of adjusting would stop swaging my .380 boolits but then being cast at .359 has a lot to do with this. I'll buy a 357 sizing die to solve that problem.

Please define "great results". That means whatever it means to you and is very subjective. What are the average 50 yard group sizes or scores on standard Bulleye pistol targets?

When I had younger eyes, nerves and muscles I could shoot regular scores of 95 to 98 - 6X. One a good day I could do better, sometimes much better. That was one handed off hand. Firing two hands with elbow support I could fire 100-8X almost at will. The handgun and load was capable of 100-10X with the limitation being my shooting ability. That is my notion of great results.

It takes very little precision from the gun, ammo or shooter to slam rounds into center mass of a combat type target at 50 feet. In that type of shooting I would call "great results" the ability of the gun, ammo and shooter to produce 50 yards head shots 100% of the time. Even so, that is coarser shooting than needed to be a competitor in Bulleye match shooting.

For those not familiar with the 50 yard slow fire pistol target, the black contains the 9, 10 and X ring. The entire black bull is 8", the 10 ring is 3.3" and the X-ring is 1.7". You only have to cut a line to get the higher score, so a 100-10X perfect score, could be about 2.5" in group size properly centered. A good match pistol and match ammo could do that without drawing a short breath. I never saw much sense in shooting a pistol that didn't have more accuracy than the shooter was capable of using. If the shot was not perfect, then I wanted to know it was my fault and not the pistol.

There is no way at age 72 I could shoot that well today. However I still shoot competition every saturday in a fun club 22 falling plate match. These days I use a Clark Custom Ruger Mk II with a Douglas barrel and a Burris Speed dot sight. I am the oldest guy on the line, but I still manage to make a few buck at every shoot. I am not the top shooter, but let those two folks have a misfire or a bad day and they are in trouble. While the speed is not there anymore, accuracy wise, I can still shoot rings around the top local shooters in that field even though they could be my grandchildren.

Pardon the long post and it was not intended to be a brag or a trip down memory lane, but to illustrate the subjective nature of what folks consider to be "great results". Many folks post lots of things on this board without the necessary information to evaluate or even fully understand the post.

[DougGuy]

Not every 1911 will chamber a .452" boolit either. There is NO RULE that says it has to. A few manufacturers want to adhere to the minimal side of dimensions so they can claim "match grade" barrels and the throat is the same diameter as the grooves in front of it, and often times the throat is too short and the rifling begins too abruptly to chamber a handload assembled with .452" boolits, and so the throat must be slightly enlarged and lengthened.

This is a different issue than the bulge of a seated boolit in the side of a case. I too would recommend a taper crimp die AND seat then crimp in separate steps. Once you have ironed out your crimp, then proceed with plunk tests. You should be able to seat with the shoulder forward of the case mouth and still chamber the round. Often when this doesn't work, instead of addressing the problem, many shooters will seat the boolit deeper in the case to get by the issue which is nothing more than creating a second problem to work around the first problem. Once you deviate from suggested COA length in load data and seat deeper, now you have to decrease powder charges to maintain safe pressures, this is not a fix at all. Even though people do it.

The proper way to address this is to have the barrel "throated" which is very inexpensive and takes care of the issue once and for all, the RIGHT WAY. This will allow the boolit to be seated in the throat when the gun goes into battery, and in every instance it will shoot more accurately than one seated flush with the case mouth where the case in the chamber is aligning the boolit with the barrel, or not, instead of the throat doing it, which the 1911 is designed to do.

OR you could size to .451" and live with the factory throat. Most would agree the .452" will seal in the bore better than a boolit the same diameter as groove diameter, and is the reason why most of us use .452" in .45 ACP.

On the left, is a stock Springfield Armory 1911 barrel showing the stock factory throat. This barrel would not plunk test 230gr LRN loads sized .452" until the throating was done. On the right is the "throated" barrel, which feeds and fires anything you stick in it now, and is plenty accurate.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Both1_zps194dd462.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Both1_zps194dd462.jpg.html)

[62chevy]

Please define "great results". That means whatever it means to you and is very subjective. What are the average 50 yard group sizes or scores on standard Bulleye pistol targets?




That means getting my rounds sized at the .473 as per Lyman #49 and I can shoot 2" groups at 30'. Before that I was all over the place with some key holing.

I do have admit the FCD worked well for the 45 acp but not so much for the 380 acp.

[454PB]

Maybe I'm the only one that does this, but I crimp separately, and do it by "feel". I don't (and doubt anyone else does) trim all my brass to the same length. My brass length may vary by up to .010", resulting in variation of crimp from round to round.

I set the crimp die much as Char-Gar described, but I then screw it in another 1/2 turn or so and crimp by "feel".

[Char-Gar]

Maybe I'm the only one that does this, but I crimp separately, and do it by "feel". I don't (and doubt anyone else does) trim all my brass to the same length. My brass length may vary by up to .010", resulting in variation of crimp from round to round.

I set the crimp die much as Char-Gar described, but I then screw it in another 1/2 turn or so and crimp by "feel".

No, you are not the only one that does that. In fact most taper crimp dies can't be used to seat bullets. At least my RCBS and Lyman will not.

If you are having ten thousands variation in case length it is time to sort your cases by length or trim to a uniform length. Variations such as that are the kiss of death for high end accuracy.

With the same make and lot of brass, variations such as this seldom occur. While trimming 45 ACP brass is seldom necessary, I have done so and will do so again if necessary. A uniform case length is necessary for consistent headspacing and consistent crimping, both of which are needed for accuracy.

[Horseman1]

It sounds like you have tons of expert help, so I dont have anything to add to your procedures or process. The contributors so far all have much more experience than I do. I do have one recent experience with purchased cast bullets that I would like to pass along, that may apply. I was the unfortunate recipient of some bullets cast by a different company than you have listed, that were not sized correctly. They claimed to be sized at .401, but were inconsistent and some percentage of them were much larger. I had what appears to be the same problem you are having on many of the rounds I made, only with a 40 SW. It was a Springfield Armory XD40.

During the troubleshooting process, I colored the rounds with a Sharpie pen to see where the color was wearing off on the brass when performing the plunk test. I had to do some pushing and twisting. This showed the problem was around the seated bullet base.

A couple of fine gentleman helped me resolve the issue. One actually sent me a micrometer to measure my bullets and we found the issue. Another, resized them correctly for me to .401. Problem was resolved in spades.

If I failed to see where you measured the bullets with a micrometer, please forgive me. Given the recent high demand for bullets, it might be that some bullets slipped through the mfg quality control. Mine most certainly did. It wouldnt hurt to measure them to be sure and be done with that part.

I dont want to provide the company I got these from, as I didn't give them a chance to resolve the problem. I considered it a valuable learning experience for me :).

[fredj338]

The factory crimp die will make a huge difference. Once adjusted properly you'll wonder how you got along without it!
Yep, A great tool for guys reloading with poor technique, as it fixes mistakes. I have been reloading for 35yrs, never needed one, don't even desire one after a bit of testing.
To the OP, check the seating stem. It's likely the Lee dies came set up with a RN stem. This can cock the bullet as you seat, producing the one sided bulge.

[Char-Gar]

That means getting my rounds sized at the .473 as per Lyman #49 and I can shoot 2" groups at 30'. Before that I was all over the place with some key holing.

I do have admit the FCD worked well for the 45 acp but not so much for the 380 acp.

OK that answers my question. For you 2" groups at 30 feet is great. For me it would take 2" groups at 50 yards to be considered great. At 30 feet all the bullets should go into the same hole or nearly so. Isn't rocket science to load ammo that will do this. Just start with a good set of RCBS, Lyman or Redding dies and add a taper crimp die. I have 45 ACP dies in each of those makes and they are all good. Precision dies cost more to make than low end dies and there is a good reason for that. I am not saying that precision ammo can't be loaded with low end dies as I have not wanted to find out. Maybe they can and maybe they can't, but I don't want to start out with a handicap of any kind. Quality dies are a lifetime investment and in the scope of things only cost a sawbuck or double sawbuck more than cheap dies. That is not much to spend for what you get.

Using any quality die, properly adjusted and set for the press, you will get sized cases of the proper dimensions. At least that has been my experience. It is always a good idea to use the same make of shell holder.

I don't have that Lyman book.

On the issue of cast bullet size, all I can report is my experience. I have owned, loaded for and shot probably 30 1911 pistols of various makes and vintages and they have all done well with .452 bullets. I do have one with a late version of the Colt National Match barrel and another with a Bar-Sto barrel. Both of these do just fine with .452 bullets. The Bar-Sto barrel does have a noticeable tighter chamber than standard barrels, but none-the-less does fine with .452 bullets. More than this, I just can't say about bullet size.

[Char-Gar]

Yep, A great tool for guys reloading with poor technique, as it fixes mistakes. I have been reloading for 35yrs, never needed one, don't even desire one after a bit of testing.
To the OP, check the seating stem. It's likely the Lee dies came set up with a RN stem. This can cock the bullet as you seat, producing the one sided bulge.

Why would anybody want a tool to fix loading mistakes. Just learn how to do it right and don't make mistakes. "Mistake correct" ammo could never good good ammo. It might feed and go bang, but not much more.

I have two seating stems for my 45 ACP dies. One is the factory round nose and the other I have turned flat with the lathe. The latter will work fine for any bullet with a flat on the top of the nose.

When Lee dies were new on the market I bought two sets, one in 38/357 and the other in 44 Magnum, because they were cheap. Both sets produced bulged cases on one side from the expander not being dead center in the die body. I trashed both sets of dies, not wanting to pass them on to some unsuspecting buyer. I understand Lee makes better dies these days, but that soured me for life.

[Horseman1]

It sounds like you have tons of expert help, so I dont have anything to add to your procedures or process. The contributors so far all have much more experience than I do. I do have one recent experience with purchased cast bullets that I would like to pass along, that may apply. I was the unfortunate recipient of some bullets cast by a different company than you have listed, that were not sized correctly. They claimed to be sized at .401, but were inconsistent and some percentage of them were much larger. I had what appears to be the same problem you are having on many of the rounds I made, only with a 40 SW. It was a Springfield Armory XD40.

During the troubleshooting process, I colored the rounds with a Sharpie pen to see where the color was wearing off on the brass when performing the plunk test. I had to do some pushing and twisting. This showed the problem was around the seated bullet base.

A couple of fine gentleman helped me resolve the issue. One actually sent me a micrometer to measure my bullets and we found the issue. Another, resized them correctly for me to .401. Problem was resolved in spades.

If I failed to see where you measured the bullets with a micrometer, please forgive me. Given the recent high demand for bullets, it might be that some bullets slipped through the mfg quality control. Mine most certainly did. It wouldnt hurt to measure them to be sure and be done with that part.

I dont want to provide the company I got these from, as I didn't give them a chance to resolve the problem. I considered it a valuable learning experience for me :).

I neglected to mention that I did try a Lee factory crimp die to resolve this issue early on, before I knew I had oversized bullets. What I found was that it swaged the bullet down to where the round would now nearly pass the plunk test and chamber. The problem with this was that the brass sprung back some, but of course the lead bullet did not. This appeared to me to reduce neck tension. I did not find that a viable solution and possibly a dangerous one.

[62chevy]

Yep, A great tool for guys reloading with poor technique, as it fixes mistakes. I have been reloading for 35yrs, never needed one, don't even desire one after a bit of testing.
To the OP, check the seating stem. It's likely the Lee dies came set up with a RN stem. This can cock the bullet as you seat, producing the one sided bulge.


Why would anybody want a tool to fix loading mistakes. Just learn how to do it right and don't make mistakes.


What are you calling a loading mistake? Needing to flare a case so you don't shave lead? Or something else.

[jcwit]

On the left, is a stock Springfield Armory 1911 barrel showing the stock factory throat. This barrel would not plunk test 230gr LRN loads sized .452" until the throating was done. On the right is the "throated" barrel, which feeds and fires anything you stick in it now, and is plenty accurate.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Both1_zps194dd462.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Both1_zps194dd462.jpg.html)

Just wondering how accurate "plenty accurate" is.

[DougGuy]

Just wondering how accurate "plenty accurate" is.

Good enough to make the owner plenty happy and not one single FTF afterwards.

[bruce381]

What it worth 200-185 gr SAECO AWC @ 1.255 OAL tapper to .470 in a few Baers no feeding problems

[Blackwater]

Char-gar has it right. What happens when you seat and crimp in a single step is that the bullet is still going upward as you crimp, and when the case mouth is turned in while the bullet is still going down in the case, is that the case mouth pushes up a ring of metal around the full diameter of the bullet as the case mouth turns inward with the crimp. This ring of metal sometimes breaks off and can be deposited on the very front of the chamber, making subsequent chambering very anywhere from inconsistent to impossible, depending on how bad it is. This is why the ONLY solution is to crimp in a separate step AFTER the bullet is seated. Then, the case mouth is turned slightly inward just enough to serve as a bulwark against the bullet being set back in feeding when it hits the feed ramp and whatever else it might strike. Crimp as a separate step, and I'll bet a dollar to a dime that your problems go away completely. I learned this over 40 years ago, and though I wasn't keen on doing yet another step, I WAS keen on my gun being absolutely reliable. Oh! And you'll likely find it needs LESS cleaning, too, which at least partially offsets the extra time it takes to crimp in a separate operation. The crimp is applied so quickly that it really doesn't take very long to crimp in a separate step, so it's not nearly as much a drudgery as people make it out to be, and it IS the only really reliable way to make truly reliable .45 ACP ammo, so give it a try whether or not you believe this, and prove it to yourself. Everything deserves one good and realistic try, doesn't it?

[bangerjim]

My 2 cents worth:

I have 1911's 45ACP and I tried EVERY suggetion people had on here. Nothing worked. Until Larry Gibson recommended sizing to 451 and using a Lee factory crimp die. BINGO! EVERY round, I mean EVERY ONE, chambers and cycles 100%! I was about ready to sell the guns but now everything is perfect. I powder coat all my boolits and use the 451 die after casting AND after PC'ing. The FCD allows a perfect "plop" test every time I test a cart.

Now don't forget.......these are MY guns.......not yours. Guns ARE different. You will have to just try a few things as you have been told above. But I finally found my ACP valahalla by following the above plan.

Many bemoan the FCD and complain about it all the time, but it has been said it is the most popular loading die Lee makes! I have one for 9mm and 45ACP. Solves all cycling and loading problems in both cals for a very cheap price!

It adds an extra loading step, but for me, it sure is worth it.

Good luck on your research!

banger

[sparetime]

Thank you to everyone for their response.

I have learned some things that seem to have me progressing in the right direction. I did over flare the case mouth. Tried to seat an unloaded, but flared brass in the barrel (removed from the gun) and it wouldn't go. So yes, I over flared.

Also, I was trying to crimp and seat at the same time. I stopped doing that. I also learned that the instructions for setting up the die that came with it are different than in the video on Lee's website. Followed the process a number of posts back. Loaded a empty brass in the press, raised the ram, screwed die down - not going to repeat everything.

Also, going back to the reloading room and use the micrometer (how do I read that thing again) vs. the calipers. I looked at the accuracy published for my dial caliper and realize that it isn't good enough.

I loaded 25 bullets in the case and seated them in one step. yes, I was using the over flared cases. Then I backed the seater out and reset the die for taper crimp by loading a factor round and tightening it against the round. I found that I had to give it a little more turn, maybe a 1/4 or so - but my hand strength isn't the greatest right now due to injury. After following this, about 1/2 of the rounds plunked into the barrel just fine. I then gave the sizing die a little more turn to see if I could get the others to go. After this attempt, I was reading .467 on the case mouth with my questionably accurate calipers (still heading down to measure with micrometer after refreshing memory on how to read it, youtube should guide me there). Most of the cartridges fit fine at that point. There were still a few that didn't. I am using various brands of brass, so there could be a length issue. I didn't see a bulge at the base of the case, but it could be there.

Does this sound like residual effect from the over flared case at this point?

Appreciate all the help.

[sparetime]

Yep, youtube had the video on using the micrometer. Dah, that was easy

After zeroing the micrometer, then checking some of the rounds that chambered properly, I was still running .472 or so. The ones I had to run through again were sizing at about .468

One I was having trouble with came out to be .475 ish, which explains some of the problem I guess.

Also pulled the die apart and the seater is set up for a round nose bullet.

[bangerjim]

If you have trouble reading the thimble of a standard mic, buy a digital one! I have 4 of them, 2 are 0.00005. I have 4 thimble ones I never use anymore.

I have been using standard mics for years and I still have to stop and think "what am I actually looking at here?!?!?" And with olde tymer's disease vision setting in, squinting at those little marks is a real PITA.

Being fully digital, there is no guesswork on the easy-to-read display. I have checked them against NIST standards and they are dead on, so please......nobody start complaining about digital inaccuracies! "Ya gets what ya pays for." Starrett and Mit are excellent brands. Avoid Harbor Freight, if possible.

banger

[MtGun44]

You are getting there. Good job.

Bill

[jcwit]

Good enough to make the owner plenty happy and not one single FTF afterwards.

Not an answer, dancing around the bush. Totally subjective as to what the gun is capable of accuracy wise.

I knew a fellow who had a car that was fast enough, till he got in a race. Second place is always the first loser.

[bobthenailer]

MY friends Sig 1911 had a short throat , would not chamber a HG-68 loaded @1250 col. I dropped in my Match finishing reamer to clean up the forcing cone leade .

[Char-Gar]

My 2 cents worth:

I have 1911's 45ACP and I tried EVERY suggetion people had on here. Nothing worked. Until Larry Gibson recommended sizing to 451 and using a Lee factory crimp die. BINGO! EVERY round, I mean EVERY ONE, chambers and cycles 100%! I was about ready to sell the guns but now everything is perfect. I powder coat all my boolits and use the 451 die after casting AND after PC'ing. The FCD allows a perfect "plop" test every time I test a cart.

Now don't forget.......these are MY guns.......not yours. Guns ARE different. You will have to just try a few things as you have been told above. But I finally found my ACP valahalla by following the above plan.

Many bemoan the FCD and complain about it all the time, but it has been said it is the most popular loading die Lee makes! I have one for 9mm and 45ACP. Solves all cycling and loading problems in both cals for a very cheap price!

It adds an extra loading step, but for me, it sure is worth it.

Good luck on your research!

banger

For the record, nothing I have ever posted about loading the 45 ACP has any application or utility for folks that powder coat bullets. That approach introduced new variables into the loading process. That is a whole new and different breed of cat. Those who go this way are in world unknown to me.

[725]

Like the above, a proper taper crimp will solve the problem.

[DougGuy]

Not an answer, dancing around the bush. Totally subjective as to what the gun is capable of accuracy wise.

I knew a fellow who had a car that was fast enough, till he got in a race. Second place is always the first loser.

I only get the barrels jcwit, never the whole gun, so I don't get to shoot these before and after or shoot them for group. People have been real happy with the work and I get good feedback from owners.

[dudel]

Not an answer, dancing around the bush. Totally subjective as to what the gun is capable of accuracy wise.

I knew a fellow who had a car that was fast enough, till he got in a race. Second place is always the first loser.

And what if Doug's standards are higher than yours? You don't know that aren't.

He's happy with his results, end of story. His goal should be his happiness; not yours.

[Blackwater]

Sparetime, you've just done what the vast majority of us here have gone through before. That is adapting and modifying our techniques to get our loads to work just like we need them to, or want them to. Congratulations! You've just proved the value of experimentation and open mindedness in this, our favorite hobby and avocation. NOW, it's gonna' get REALLY interesting, but don't let it get you down if and when ALL your experiments don't turn out just like you'd imagined them to go. That, too, is part of our learning curve. It helps to have good instincts, like not loading loads that are far outside the load books, but other than that, the field is pretty much wide open. Ya' done good, sir. REAL good!

[DR Owl Creek]

Sparetime,

I'm glad things are coming along for you. I've always learned more from my mistakes than from anything else. What you've learned here will help you with everything else. Good luck!


Dave

[ColColt]

I haven't read each post so if it's already been answered ignore what I say. For the 45 ACP I use the Lee Turret press. I used the HG 68 bullet in three 1911's and without exception they all feed like FMJ bullets. After charging and flaring the case, I seat the bullet to an OAL of 1.250" which barely exposed the front band. I made that determination not only with a case gauge but took the barrel out of the pistol and after taper crimping to .468" dropped it in the chamber. Holding the barrel upward and looking at where the rim is in relation to the hood on the chamber if it's flush or slightly below, you're good to go.

[prs]

For the record, nothing I have ever posted about loading the 45 ACP has any application or utility for folks that powder coat bullets. That approach introduced new variables into the loading process. That is a whole new and different breed of cat. Those who go this way are in world unknown to me.

My bet is that you know more about it than you think. The powder coat paint was associated with NO changes in my hand loading parameters. The coated boolits are sized the same as traditionally lubed or tumble lubed specimens. The seating die is set the same, the crimp die is the same (although I apparently crimp less severely than some old hands here). Now, if PC makes some small difference in pressure curves, I don't know. If PC changes the accuracy of the loads to where they will not meet your expectations or demands; I don't that either. But, so far as the mechanics of hand loading, best practices are going to be very similar.

prs

[Char-Gar]

I haven't read each post so if it's already been answered ignore what I say. For the 45 ACP I use the Lee Turret press. I used the HG 68 bullet in three 1911's and without exception they all feed like FMJ bullets. After charging and flaring the case, I seat the bullet to an OAL of 1.250" which barely exposed the front band. I made that determination not only with a case gauge but took the barrel out of the pistol and after taper crimping to .468" dropped it in the chamber. Holding the barrel upward and looking at where the rim is in relation to the hood on the chamber if it's flush or slightly below, you're good to go.

Yep..that is pretty much all there is to it.

[Char-Gar]

My bet is that you know more about it than you think. The powder coat paint was associated with NO changes in my hand loading parameters. The coated boolits are sized the same as traditionally lubed or tumble lubed specimens. The seating die is set the same, the crimp die is the same (although I apparently crimp less severely than some old hands here). Now, if PC makes some small difference in pressure curves, I don't know. If PC changes the accuracy of the loads to where they will not meet your expectations or demands; I don't that either. But, so far as the mechanics of hand loading, best practices are going to be very similar.

prs

I only post about thing I know from experience and I don't powder coat. Ergo, I don't know anything about it.

[DougGuy]

And what if Doug's standards are higher than yours? You don't know that aren't.

He's happy with his results, end of story. His goal should be his happiness; not yours.

MY GOAL is my customer's happiness!

WE handloaders, boolit casters, bathroom ballisticians, are on the short end of the schtick with the gun mfgrs for the most part, if factory ammo works in it, shoo it out the door by the hundreds. OUR standards generally, are a little more exacting. To that end, we have to sometimes go a little out of our way to insure proper boolit fitment, and that might involve manipulating cylinder throats or barrel throats until they suit our liking. No big deal..

It's awfully handy to have this ability at our fingertips, I try to offer this service in an affordable, fast, professionally executed manner that is as close as I can get to the factory doing it. The work is done right, it looks good, and it functions perfectly. How well my customers shoot is up to them, but I have heard nothing but good reports from the barrels and cylinders I send out of here weekly.

You know for a fact that if a guy has a problem with a barrel I throated, we would have heard about it by now. If it shot 2" groups before throating and now the groups look like he fired a shotgun, you know full well THIS would be all over this forum but it's not. I am getting reports that say groups are better, with no leading, and ZERO failures to go into battery. For twenty dollars plus shipping and insurance. Gotta love it!

[newton]

My bet is that you know more about it than you think. The powder coat paint was associated with NO changes in my hand loading parameters. The coated boolits are sized the same as traditionally lubed or tumble lubed specimens. The seating die is set the same, the crimp die is the same (although I apparently crimp less severely than some old hands here). Now, if PC makes some small difference in pressure curves, I don't know. If PC changes the accuracy of the loads to where they will not meet your expectations or demands; I don't that either. But, so far as the mechanics of hand loading, best practices are going to be very similar.

prs

This is my experience too. I jumped on the PC bandwagon a few weeks ago. Best thing since sliced bread. lol

One thing you forgot to mention is that there is no lube to ever clean out of the dies now. That alone is one major change because once you find the right spot on the dies you can leave them like that just as if you were loading jacketed rounds.

[newton]

I am having some trouble with a .45 ACP load I'm trying to complete

I am considering getting into casting my own bullets, but I figured I'd buy some commercially produced bullets first and try them trough my 1911. I have a Sig 1911

I purchased two brands of cast bullets. Acme and SNS in 200 grain semi wadcutter. This is also my first time loading .45 ACP. Both boxes of bullets say they are sized to .452 diameter. I went through the normal case prep procedures, flared the cases and seated a bullet to 1.235 as shown in my Lyman manual. I then took apart the 1911 and tested fit the finished round in the barrel. Problem was the case wouldn't slide into the barrel (haven't purchased a case gauge yet for the finished round, but will be). It seems there is a slight budge on the side of the loaded case. A factory round slid in without any problem. My calipers seems to show the case with the cast bullet is very slightly larger than the factory round. Tried the other brand of bullet and had the same result.

I'm using a single stage press with Lee dies. My first thought is that the bullets are a little too big. Is it possible that I'd have to resize the bullets smaller before loading?

I do have a Lyman bullet sizer, but don't have any dies for it yet.

Do I need to slug the barrel? What should my next step be?

I tried adjusting the taper crimp without any change to round chambering. The die set is the 3 die set, without the factory crimp die. Would trying the factory crimp die make any difference? Do I need to slug the barrel or is there something else?

Wanted to start shooting lead because the bullets are cheaper and the 200 SWC is often an accurate round through this gun. I appreciate any help you can provide. I could also pick up some jacketed bullets and see if I'm still having the same problem.

When you slide them in the barrel, can you see where the barrel is rubbing a bright or dull spot in the brass?

I am having a similar issue as you are. Of course every gun is different.

Hang in there, enjoy the process, sooner or later you'll get down whatever it is that your gun wants.

[Echo]

I backed the seating plug way out and played with more and more crimp until the round would chamber in my barrel. The crimp is noticeable at this point. However, there isn't any shoulder left, my fingernail doesn't catch when dragging it from the bullet shoulder along to the side of the case. The .45 ACP headspaces off the case month, so it seems I'm creating a problem by crimping this much.
Well, that's what they SAY, but if one were to take a dial caliper and measure the depth of the .45ACP chamber, one would usually find that the chamber is a few thousandths longer than the case, causing what is known as end-play. The solution to that problem is to seat the boolit out so that the shoulder is maybe 15-20 thousandths proud of the case mouth, causing the boolit shoulder to engage the rifling, effectively setting up headspace. So what if the soft lead boolit engraves slightly on chambering? There is plenty of energy in the closing slide to easily engrave the shoulder lightly. This from world-class gunsmiths...

[jcwit]

I only get the barrels jcwit, never the whole gun, so I don't get to shoot these before and after or shoot them for group. People have been real happy with the work and I get good feedback from owners.

Now that's a good answer. Understood!

[sig2009]

I would try adjusting my taper crimp a little tighter and see if that makes the difference.
I just loaded 700 rounds of 200 grain SWC's, all sized to .452" and they all passed the drop in test on my Brown match barrel without a hitch.
I seat to 1.245" and crimp separately
CPL Lou

They fit because they are being resized to smaller than .452. I stopped using the FCD for cast boolits.

[prs]

Did CPL Lou mention use of the Carbide FCD? I missed that part.

prs

[prs]

I only post about thing I know from experience and I don't powder coat. Ergo, I don't know anything about it.

That is a fine recipe for staying out of trouble. Carry on!

Banger Jim; when you use that Lee CFCD, does the ring actually make contact with the cases?

prs

[bangerjim]

That is a fine recipe for staying out of trouble. Carry on!

Banger Jim; when you use that Lee CFCD, does the ring actually make contact with the cases?

prs

Yes, It slightly squeezes the mouth back into factory spec. And allows the cart to plop in! I was never able to get a standard die crimp to let the ACP's chamber and cycle.

Without it, everyone of my carts would not chamber. And I used the min amount of belling...just enough to allow the PC'd boolit to slide into the case.

And I do NOT get swaging of the boolits with the FCD as so many claim it does. Just gottta hold your mouth right!

banger

[prs]

banger; have your problems with use of taper crimp only dies been with one particular die or a variety of them. I am wondering if it may be true that all dies are not created equal. For the 45ACP my only crimp only die is from Lee. This die works quite well for me when the seating die ahead of it is set just above the level that crimps. My seat/crimp combination die from the Lee 4 die set seems more finicky if used as a seat only die. Seating and crimping in one operation has not been awarding for me at all.

prs

[bangerjim]

Seat/crimp works (for me at least) for all carts EXCEPT 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45ACP. semi's. Those 3 cals I do not let the seating die do any crimping at all....just seating. I then use the Lee FCD to finish the work.

All of them now plop, shoot and cycle perfectly. It adds another operation but, hey, we ARE doing this for the fun......right!?!?!?

For everthing else I use the standard Lee seat/crimp die in the set. Revolvers and long guns do not care one bit!

banger

[CPL Lou]

Shoot 'em and see if you get a leading problem.
If you do, don't use the Lee FCD. If not, you have a winner !
I don't have one and have never found a need for one. Taper crimping seems to work just fine in all 4 of my .45 autos (3 1911's and a Sig 220). All have match barrels installed.

CPL Lou

[DR Owl Creek]

Seat/crimp works (for me at least) for all carts EXCEPT 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45ACP. semi's. Those 3 cals I do not let the seating die do any crimping at all....just seating. ...


banger

Actually, you've raised a very good point. Thank you.

I do crimp and seat at the same time for revolver cartridges, or any others where the bullet has a cannelure, AND I'm using a roll crimp. For any others where the bullet has no cannelure, AND I'm using the taper crimp die, I ALWAYS seat and crimp in two separate operations. Since we were discussing the 45 ACP here, that wasn't brought up.

Dave

[bangerjim]

I now use the FCD on ALL semi's, due to their extremely tight (picky!) tolerances of my specific guns. No leading with PC....ever. The FDC die does take an extra step.....but it warms the cockles of my heart to know I solved a long-existing problem (for me at least) simply and at very little cost.

I use standard Lee seat/crimp dies on all revolvers & long gun loads. No leading with PC....ever.

The FCD dies work for me very well. Those that have actually USED them and had problems with them are probably cramping them down too hard, compressing the brass too tightly on the bare lead, and causing problems. I have broken down numerous rounds and the PC is not scraped off when exiting the brass. And the PC'd lead is not swaged. Again........hold your mouth just right!!!! [smilie=w:

I played with probably 200 rounds of 9 and 45ACP each until I almost got everything aligned and defined over a period of time....yet still many failure to chambers. After using the 451 sizing die and the FCD on the ACP, all the rounds I tried were perfect. 9 is also a go!

But I agree.........try it and see if it works for your situation. Barrels vary....loading techniques DEFINITELY vary.

To FCD or not to FCD........the choice is yours. Whatever process you choose, have fun out there!

banger

[DR Owl Creek]

...

Many bemoan the FCD and complain about it all the time, but it has been said it is the most popular loading die Lee makes! ...

banger

To each his own I guess. Somebody somewhere said that just because McDonalds sells more hamburgers than anybody else doesn't make them the best. I agree.

After seeing and using a lot of Lee equipment, I'd say it's more like comparing Vienna sausages to something from Wolfgang Puck's or Ruth's Chris steak houses. :bigsmyl2:


Dave

[Char-Gar]

It does no harm to seat and crimp in one operations IF the last little bit of seating doesn't scrap lead from the side of the bullets. Seating a bullet with a wide crimp groove for a revolver is an example of where this works fine.

If you are seating and crimping on a slick sided bullets for autopistol rounds in one operation, you are asking for shaved lead, which is never a good think. Here is where you need two different operations.

So the one die vs. two die things, isn't hard and fast, it just depends on the bullet.

_____________________________________________

I have never bought nor used a Lee Factory Crimp die, so don't have an opinion on it's use. All I can say it that it receives more negative reviews with cast bullets than positive reviews. As my roll crimp and taper crimp dies work just fine, I seen no reason to buy a Lee FCD to find out who is right and who is wrong.

I will add that having been burned badly 30 years ago with Lee reloading equipment, Lee is not on my list of approved reloading equipment providers. I don't intend to invest my money to find out of they have gotten their act together over the years.

_____________________________________________

I have two taper crimp dies for the 45 ACP an RCBS and a Lyman and they both work just fine.

For a roll crimp on 45 Auto Rim or 45 Cowboy Special brass I use the crimp ring in either my RCBS or Lyman seating die. I have found the RCBS seating die chokes on bullets over .452 while the Lyman is more generous and will take .454 bullets with ease.

When the Redding Profile Crimp dies came on the market, I bought a full set for all my handgun calibers, but have not found much use for them. They combine a roll crimp and taper crimp.

[bangerjim]

To each his own I guess. Somebody somewhere said that just because McDonalds sells more hamburgers than anybody else doesn't make them the best. I agree.

After seeing and using a lot of Lee equipment, I'd say it's more like comparing Vienna sausages to something from Wolfgang Puck's or Ruth's Chris steak houses. :bigsmyl2:


Dave


Let's keep this on the OP's track and not turn it into a Lee bashing threat.......AGAIN!

banger

[prs]

Char-Gar; thank you for mentioning the various models of taper crimp and hybrid dies. The taper crimp insert in the Lee Carbide FCD die that came with my 45 Colt set makes a crimp that I would term as hybrid, sort of a tapered-roll. I use its crimp ring in a spare powder through die so as to avoid the mooshing of my soft .454 black powder cartridges. Works fine that way. I would not use it on a cartridge that spaces on the mouth. The similar Lee C FCD I have in 45ACP is a taper. I mostly use that die without the crimp ring as a push through die to rehab brass that has been stepped upon or such. Have never used it as Lee promotes. Today, I took that crimp ring out of its storage box and set it upon a cartridge made-up previously with a Lee taper crimp only die. The fit was perfect, so at least they are consistent.

Banger, I wonder if the OP got his problem corrected yet? We do tend to stray a bit.........

prs