Wrinkled cases

[Eliduc]

I am fairly new to reloading. I started on my son's Dillon 550. When He took it home I bought a Lee classic turret. I shoot a Colt Army Special 38 and a Taurus Ultralite 38. I am casting with a Lee frn 158g mold.
I have been having a problem with the cartridges not cambering in the cylinder. Some stop in the chamber right behind the bullet. Others half way down the cartridge and still others a quarter inch from the base. out of about 100 reloads I get 8 to 10 of these. I'm using mostly range brass but I also had the problem with new Starline brass only maybe not as bad. My son gave me 100 new Eagle 38's (2 boxes) and 8 or ten of those would not chamber while others drop right in. Where there is a visible wrinkle or ridge right below the base of the seated bullet I figure it's because the bullet is not straight in the case before seating. I notice some seat easier than others. Could the ones that use more pressure on the ram be bulging the case slightly further down? Would it help to size the bullets to 358 or 357 to make them uniform? I haven't slugged the barrel yet. I have mostly shot the Colt. The Taurus was a gift to my wife from her son and I hate guns with pink grips.

[petroid]

How does factory ammo fit? If its fine then you probably just have tight throats in your cylinders. If you have trouble pushing a 357 bullet through the cylinder it should be reamed to at least 358.

[Bullwolf]

If you are not sizing the boolits you cast from the Lee frn 158g mold sometimes you can cast a few boolits that are oversized, and they cause problems like this.

For example my Lee 358-158-RF , and even some of my wad cutter moulds generally cast a boolit around .360, and sometimes larger.

I tend to get those rare really oversize cast boolits if I ham fist grab all three handles on a Lee 6 cavity mould (two block handles and the sprue cutter) or when I get a spot of lead flashing between the blocks, then I can sometimes cast a boolit as large as .361 or more.

While I can't always fit boolits that are .360 or .361 in all of my 38/357 cylinders.... (brass and revolver specific) cartridges assembled using boolits sized to .358 always slip into the case gauge, or my revolvers cylinders.

So for consistency sake I like to size all of my 38/357 boolits to .3585 using an inexpensive hand polished Lee push through sizer die.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRtR7um-UMnSXX0twcubImN7evfCzabt8mfh50pTi32a9425u8S0Q

After sizing, I usually tumble lube, and then load em.

This way they are all the same size. It's not as quick as loading boolits "as cast" but I pretty much never get caught with a fat boolit that does not fit after going through my loading process.


- Bullwolf

[Tatume]

Your problem does not appear to be related to the bullet. Somewhere along the line you are deforming the cases. Try this. Size some cases and inspect them. Are there wrinkles (probably not)? Seat some bullets and inspect again for wrinkles. If you find them, you should probably bell your cases a bit more. You will probably detect lead shaving also. If there is no deformation at the seating stage, crimp a batch and inspect. If now you find bulging, you are putting in too much crimp.

Whatever you do, don't modify the gun. Reaming chambers to accept incorrectly prepared ammo is a bad idea, and no good will come of it.

[leftiye]

Think case lube?

[psweigle]

It sounds to me to be a resizing issue. Try taking a new starline and put it in all the cylinders before you resize. Then again after you resize. If it fits unsized but not after, readjust your swing die as per the instructions. If it does fit, then you will need to resize your bullets before loading them. Always check your cases in the cylinder after resizing. Or buy a case headspace gauge. It will save you a lot of pulling later. Good luck and be safe.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Describe the bulge or wrinkle under the boolit a little more please. Does the brass bulge out from the base of the boolit or do you just see the base of the boolit protruding slightly in the sized and loaded case?

Colt's usually have oversized chambers. I had trouble like what you are describing with a Ruger Blackhawk which turned out to be the .38 mold I was using. I'd have to run finished cartridges through a taper crimp 9mm die to get 100% of them to chamber. No matter how lightly I'd applied the roll crimp on these boolits I'd get a few that wouldn't chamber. I sized and lubed these boolits in a sizer lubricator .358" but that boolit was a 125 gr mold, I don't remember the mold brand or number. I bought it at a gunshow. I switched molds and cast 150 gr boolits and never had that problem again. I figured the mold had an inadequate crimp grove which bulged the case at the mouth. So based on my experience I'd suggest you try a different boolit and see if you get the same problem.

[blackpowder man]

I always seat and crimp rimmed pistol cartridges in 2 separate stage. I seat them all and then go back and crimp them all.

[Eliduc]

I always seat and crimp rimmed pistol cartridges in 2 separate stage. I seat them all and then go back and crimp them all.

Thanks for all the great comments. I think it's not just one problem. Yes, on some of the cases there is a wrinkle just below the base of the bullet on one side of the case. It could be from the bullet not in the case straight before crimping or an oversized or irregular base on the bullet or too tight of a crimp or a combination. I will start sizing them. I do tumble lube all of my bullets. There isn't any visible bulge in the ones that stick midway in the chamber. Some have a slight abraison. They do not seem to stick in one chamber more than another. I can't see any irregularity at the base of the cartridge but some of the cartridges won't seat in the camber the last quarter inch so there must be some kind of bulge or irregularity. All the cases chamber easily after being fired and before being sized on the press. I don't think I have tried chambering them after sizing but before seating. I will try that. I tried measuring a few finished cases with the calipers and they are .374 or .375 below where the base of the bullet is seated to the rim of the cartridge base but it is hard to measure accurately with the caliper. I'm pretty sure it isn't the gun because it also does it in the Taurus Ultralite. I will try a lighter crimp.

[slughammer]

Let's start with a couple of basics. What brand die set are you using? What does your expander measure? What do the boolits measure?

The off center bulge at the boolit base is due to the size of the boolit vs the size of the expander. The difference is probably too great. .002-.003 difference is normal. .004 is pushing the limit and .006 is too much. With the correct size boolit and the correct expander you may still have a slight bulge, but it will be concentric.

[Bullwolf]

If you are able to provide it, a picture of a cartridge having this issue would help us diagnose the problem much better than a written description.


- Bullwolf

[BD]

Sounds like a seating /crimping issue to me. The boolit is still being seated slightly deeper after the crimp has been applied enough to bite in. This is compressing the case against the shell holder resulting in the wrinkles. Pretty common in the .38 special. The cure is to adjust the crimp die so it is crimping into the groove at the same instant the boolit is seated as far as it will be going. This can be hard to get exactly right without a generous crimp groove. If that is the case, seat and crimp in two separate operations.

[DrDogwood]

Just a thought, are you trimming all your cases to the same length or at least checking your case length? If some of your cases are longer than others when they get crimped the case will wrinkle or crush. Also if the mouth of the case is not lined up with the crimp grove the the case has no place to go so it will crush or wrinkle.

[gray wolf]

This problem needs to be looked at one step at a time so the offending issue can be isolated and corrected.
Also as been said a picture in this case would be very helpful.

[Motor]

If you are not sizing the boolits you cast from the Lee frn 158g mold sometimes you can cast a few boolits that are oversized, and they cause problems like this.

For example my Lee 358-158-RF , and even some of my wad cutter moulds generally cast a boolit around .360, and sometimes larger.

I tend to get those rare really oversize cast boolits if I ham fist grab all three handles on a Lee 6 cavity mould (two block handles and the sprue cutter) or when I get a spot of lead flashing between the blocks, then I can sometimes cast a boolit as large as .361 or more.

While I can't always fit boolits that are .360 or .361 in all of my 38/357 cylinders.... (brass and revolver specific) cartridges assembled using boolits sized to .358 always slip into the case gauge, or my revolvers cylinders.

So for consistency sake I like to size all of my 38/357 boolits to .3585 using an inexpensive hand polished Lee push through sizer die.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRtR7um-UMnSXX0twcubImN7evfCzabt8mfh50pTi32a9425u8S0Q

After sizing, I usually tumble lube, and then load em.

This way they are all the same size. It's not as quick as loading boolits "as cast" but I pretty much never get caught with a fat boolit that does not fit after going through my loading process.


- Bullwolf

I'm not saying the other replies are incorrect but I was having the same issue and what Bullwolf posted is what cured it for me.

As for the ones that would not fit and were already loaded: I ran them into a Lee FCD and of course they all fit after that. This however is not recomended for cast bullets because the FCD can swage the bullet within the case destroying all neck tention.

I'm no "expert target shooter" but the funny thing is the ones I ran through the FCD's post sizing ring shot as good as the rest. Go figure.


Motor

[dtknowles]

I often seat and crimp as separate operations but this is how I set the die if I am going to do it as one operation. With as sized, primed, belled and charged case start the bullet in the case, put it in the shell holder with the seat crimp die I the press but backed out so it will not crimp. Run the case up to seat the bullet, adjust to the right depth but don't lock the seat stem instead back it out a bunch. With the case with the bullet seated and the ram at the top of the stroke, run the die down until it contacts the case but not the bullet. Back down the ram a bit and run the die down a partial turn, run the ram back up to remove the bell and start the crimp. Repeat this until you get the crimp you want but not too much then lock the die. If you over crimped or crunched a case back off and try again with a new case. Now with the die set properly and locked. Run the good round back to the top, run the seating stem down until it is in firm contact with the bullet and lock it in. You should be set, do another round to check that nothing moved for got out of wack in the tightening/locking process. If when tightening the lock nut on the seating stem you moved the die down a little it will ruin the setup and your ammo will get crunched.

When operating a single stage press you can often tell things are out of adjustment by feel, you can tell when it feels easier or harder. If a stroke seems harder stop, don't force it even if it only takes a tiny bit more force. Many people try to go so fast that they can't feel any difference. Smooth makes ammo and shooting fast not speed.

When I seat and crimp as separate steps, I set the die to seat to the bullets to the right depth and then to crimp, I back out the seating stem and run the die down a bunch and crimp by feel, the ram does not go all the way to the top, I can feel the right amount of force to get the crimp, it almost feels like a click as the brass curls into the groove and to press any more generates a lot of resistance, don't go there.

Tim

[Motor]

Very good post Tim.

I'd like to add that the roll crimp applied by a standard seat/crimp die does this process with very little vertical movement. Much less than the standard canalure width so even small differences in case length can change the amount of crimp a lot.

Like many others I don't bother trimming pistol brass but when loading I do try to find a long case from the lot I am loading and adjust my seat/crimp on it. This way the shorter ones will just get less crimp and I won't over crimp any.

Motor

[bedbugbilly]

If your shooting a Colt Army Special - then it's been around since at least 1926 or so back to possibly 1908. I use only "range brass" and only cast in a number of profiles. If you are getting creases near the neck - then it is probably a combination - not enough "bell" and "oversize bullet". Kind of like trying to stuff a football through a paper towel tube.

As mentioned - you might need to size your bullet down. Some of mine I can load "as cast" - I have several revolvers I can load .360 in. Most though fall around .358 - .359 and they work fine. If need be, size your's to .358.

I always seat and crimp in two different operations. I also use the Lee 4 die set that has the FCD. That's intended to make sure they re to specs as it goes through a carbide ring on the way in. Some like 'em, some don't like 'em - but I have good luck with it. If you take your loaded cartridge off the press and there's a wrinkle - if it was me I'd pull the slug, dump the powder back in to the hopper and throw the brass.

My Army Special is a 1910 D.O.B. and the chambers are quite generous - never had a problem fitting a 38 in them so I'm thinking that the ones that don't fit in yours are way out of spec due to wrinkles, oversize at the throat of the casing, etc. If you have some that don't fit - use a black sharpie on them - insert into the chamber and give a slight pressure twist and it should show where you are tight - that will help in determining what you need to change.

One of the best "buddies" you can have on the bench is a "cartridge gauge". Yes, you can try them in your cylinder but a cartridge gauge will tell you as they come off the press if they are within spec. I use one all the time.

Don't get frustrated with it - you'll figure it out and get the problem fixed. 38 spl is a pretty easy cartridge to load once you get your dies adjusted correctly and your components figured out. Check the OD of your slugs first - fix if necessary and then check to make sure you have the mouth belled enough. Good luck!

[Texantothecore]

I've seen this before. You may be crimping too hard, it should be fairly gentle to provide only a pull weight of 60 lbs before the bullet separates from the case.

Just crimp gently and it should work well.