500 yards with a 308

[Ken]

I am interested in shooting targets out to 500 yards with cast bullets. I would appreciate any advice/experience on where to start.
which bullet/what loads have been successful. I am an experienced bullet caster and reloader. I have a Remington Milsspec 5R in 308 and a 30 PPC as well as a couple of 30-06s and a Savage 30-30.
thanks in advance for your help.

[felix]

I copied this from another board:

Thank you for your inquiry. The Model 700 5-R was a special run that we did in 2001. The 5-R rifling is the same type of rifling used on the M-24 SWS rifle. There are 5 lands opposed to the normal 6 lands. The lands are tapered at 110 degrees. This leads to less bullet deformation for greater accuracy. Rate of twist is 1 in 11.24". We do not have production numbers. The barrel stampings are just proof marks from production & do not mean anything special.

The 5 lands are a good thing. The twist is a good thing for 190 grainer boolits or less. The land slope is questionable per Bass Ackwards who has had a barrel with this land configuration. I am not sure he had various barrels to play with or not to sufficiently say the idea is a bad one for boolits (naked lead projectiles), but one should be leary anyway. The only way to get satisfaction is by personal experience on your part. I assume you have good experience at the 500 yard range. If the land angle works at all, your accuracy should be very good at 1800-2400 fps using the slowest powder. Your lands at the throat must be very smooth, and they should be after 1000 rounds of max velocity condoms (jacketed). The boolit must be gas checked. Other characteristics are to be determined by shooting the various forms best obtained though folks on this board as samples. Hard to say which one to request first, but more than likely I would start with a full bodied design to get a feel for the gun's desires. ... felix

[sundog]

Ken, I have the same interest. In practicality, i can't get past 300 unless I go out to the river, and there I can get 1K, but no nice range set up with benches, hard stand, nor target boards.

It seems like two things are needed external-wise, a heavier boolit to retain energy and enough muzzle velocity to keep it sonic at 500. That seems to indicate what Felix mentioned for starters, a full bodied GC boolit with lots of surface. Some other thoughts are slower twist (<10 which you have), slower powder, really smooth throat, and a well fitted boolit.

So, if I were going to try this with the boolits I have on hand, I would start with a 311284 (beagled or the latest group buy NEI version) and 314299. When those prove not workable move on to others. Powder would have to be something on the order of 4064 and slower attempting to move slower, fill the case, get a complete powder burn, and produce MV at or above ??2200??. Need to look at some tables for a starting place. That means seating as far out as possible which means the throat would have to accommodate the longer boolit. Ideally the base of the boolit would not intrude past the base of the neck. Runout is critical. Boolits will need to be weighed and segregated into .1 grain batches.

Man, this sounds like FUN! Keep us posted. I have a 700 VS LH (12 twist) that I could try it in. These loads are not going to be all day plinking loads. A heavier rifle will sure help.

[Larry Gibson]

A 311299 at 2000 fps holds to 500 yards quite nicely out of my M70 target with 12" twist in .308. I actually push the bullet a little faster as I shoot it at 600 yards. As mentioned use medium to slow burning powders and cast hard.

Larry Gibson

[Tom W.]

1000 yards with my son's Remington. Six shots. No credit to me, he set it up.....I just pulled the trigger. The handloads were ja,jac,condom bullets with Reloder powder.





http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a118/OldeFarte/100_0258.jpg

[Ken]

Yep we do that too with our 308s and jacked bullets. Still amazes me. Mansize target hits with a cast load at 500 would please me. Then I would have to go for 600 etc. It's a sickness.

[45 2.1]

I've been useing this boolit with Surplus 846 and 4895 in the 308. 380 yards and it shoots about 1.5 MOA with the Enfield 2A sights at 2200 to 2400 fps.

[Nobade]

I've been using the RCBS 165 SIL over all the AA3100 I can get into the case for highpower silhouette recently. The rams are at 500M, and I have no problem keeping all the hits on target off the bench, if I read the wind switches properly. (Now if I could only do it that well offhand!) Anyhow, a ram target is about twice as wide as a man's torso and about as tall, so what you want to do is not a problem. The rifle is my hunter class Remington, 700 with a factory sporter barrel I set back and rechambered with my Kiff 308 Match reamer, nothing special just a shorter and tighter throat than factory.

[26Charlie]

I shot National Match COurse once with cast, .30-06 pushing 311331 220 gr. (Like 311284) at 1650 fps. OK at 200 and 300 yd., but at 600 yd had to run the sight up about 75 minutes from 100 yd. zero. The bullets were going subsonic and arcing in noticeably downward, according to the guys in the pits. The MRT must have been about 10 feet, whereas the jacketed BT in about 3 feet.
That puts it up where winds can take it.

[Ken]

Can I push a 311 291 at 2200 fps usin linotype and wheelweights water dropped?

[Larry Gibson]

Yes you can push a 311291 at 2200 fps. Again, if you've a 12" twist barrel you might maintain accuracy to 500 yards but I would not bet on it. Velocity will be down in the mid to low 1000 fps at 500 yards so the bullet will be subsonic or going so. Thus accuracy at 500 yards may not be at it's best.

Larry Gibson

[Ken]

I'm about ready to try. I will post results

[Larry Gibson]

Patiently waiting.

Larry Gibson

[Ken]

I cast some 190s this afternoon and water dropped them. I used the ghost turds to cover the water and prevent splashing, worked great. If I understand, I need to wait up to 30 days for the bullets to get max hard. I sized them .309.
I used some homemade beeswax/lithium grease lube. Any suggertions on something better?
I read somewhere that a case full of WC 860 works. Any comments on that?
Thanks

[Bret4207]

LAR45 has some lube that set some records. His link is at the bottom of the page. Bullshop also sells lube that is good, again link at bottom of page.

I'm no long range genius, but "max hardness" may not be needed to get where your going. 5 days will probably tell you what you meed to know. A 311291 doesn't have the BC for long range, or so conventional wisdom would say. Some of the Silhouette designs might make a better choice or something like the Saeco RG4 design.

A former member here designed a high BC cast boolit a few years back. Not sure how it worked out. Might post a question up in Cast Boolits about "Aladins HBC" and see if anyone has any good scoop.

[VTDW]

Ken,

I am in the same mode as you bro. I am working with the new Marlin Express .308 cartridge. I am using Ranch Dog's 165 gr boolit that is 170 gr. with my alloy of 50/50 WW/Lino water quenched, lubed and gas checked. I am interested in your results. My bore is firelapped and is .3085 while I am sizing to .311 and the rifle has a 1:12 twist. I am using Felix Lube with some LLA added and so far no leading at well over 2,000fps. Next time out I am going to be pushing them really hard and will have chrony data along with accuracy potential using BLC-2, Varget and Re-15.

The factory fodder is supremely accurate and lots of sub MOA groups with this new cartridge are being reported.

Dave

[Ken]

Interesting on the Marlin. Hard to keep up with the new stuff that's coming out. Good Luck in getting it to shoot.
I prepped 50 LC Match brass for the 308. -Trim to length, deburred primer holes-How do you recommend that I size the necks. I usually use a standard sizing die followed by a light bell mouth then straighten out the bell mouth when I seat the bullet. Any better way to do it?

[Larry Gibson]

Interesting on the Marlin. Hard to keep up with the new stuff that's coming out. Good Luck in getting it to shoot.
I prepped 50 LC Match brass for the 308. -Trim to length, deburred primer holes-How do you recommend that I size the necks. I usually use a standard sizing die followed by a light bell mouth then straighten out the bell mouth when I seat the bullet. Any better way to do it?

Neck sizing; I use an old Lee Target loader, Redding bushing die or a Bonanza/Forster bench rech neck sizer. The Lee gives best concentricity but the Redding Bushing die allows me to just size the neck for the amount of tentsion wanted on the bullet (no squeeze down then expand up). Either use a Lyman M die to bell or the Lee expander die. Some like the Lee collet dies.

I don't bother with straigtening out the bell as I bell only enough to seat the bullet without shaving and it does not interfere with chambering. Seams to prevent some lube blow back on really reduced loads if the mouth is belled to the diameter of the chamber neck. Some think it increases accuracy by keeping the bullet centered.

Larry Gibson

[Ken]

Thanks Larry,I will go to the range next week, Any issues shooting a CB through a muzzlebrake?

[Tom W.]

I did some horse trading and came home with a NIB 2003 year model Savage Model 12BVSS-S single shot bolt gun in .308..... As soon as I get it sighted in, I'll try the long range stuff, and not need my son's gun!

I have a Lee C309-160R mould that shoots well from my 30/30 and 30-06. Do you suppose that this will work well in the Savage?

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks Larry,I will go to the range next week, Any issues shooting a CB through a muzzlebrake?

I've not seen any problems with them but I've not used them on rifles that much. I do have flash suppressors on several rifles and have had no problems with them and cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I did some horse trading and came home with a NIB 2003 year model Savage Model 12BVSS-S single shot bolt gun in .308..... As soon as I get it sighted in, I'll try the long range stuff, and not need my son's gun!

I have a Lee C309-160R mould that shoots well from my 30/30 and 30-06. Do you suppose that this will work well in the Savage?


Savage doesn't list the 112BVSS-S currently in .308, that doesn't mean they didn't make it though. They currently list the 112FVSS-S in .308 with a 10" twist. They also list the 12F/TR in .308 with a 12" twist. You might want to measure the actual twist in your rifle. If it is a 12" twist you may get a accurate load with that Lee bullet that will hold sonic to 500 yards but you will have to work for it. If it is a 10" twist then the Lee bullet probably will shoot ok but you more than likely will not get an accurate load that will stay sonic to 500 yards.

Larry Gibson

[Tom W.]

The paperwork with the rifle, and also measuring it, is 1-10. My son loads and shoots long range, altho he uses jacketed bullets. I've never loaded for anything except hunting loads in my rifles, the cast bullets for shooting turtles and plinking in my other rifles. That Model 12 is a heavy rifle, and I think I'm about to enter a whole new world in shooting sports...

[Ken]

My first range tests were uninspiring. I got about 2.5 inches at 100 yds. I am going to try some different things to bring the group size down.

[jahela]

I'm following this thread very interested.

I plan to cast the Lyman 311679 for my Steyr SSG 69 which have a 1/10" twist.
Here in germany it's quite uncommon to cast bullets for fast rifle loads (thats the reason for my login here).
I also read the article from Rick Kelter at http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm concerning heat-treating of Antimony-alloys.

What I'll do next is making Ingots from 94/4/2 Pb/Sb/Sn, casting the bullets, heat-treating them to 22-25 BHN, lube them with "Jake's Scarlet"http://cgi.ebay.com/Jakes-Scarlet-High-Speed-Cast-Bullet-Lube-10-Sticks_W0QQitemZ380011264501QQihZ025QQcategoryZ730 8QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Has anybody experience with this lube?

Then I'll make loads with VV N140 for 2200-2500 fps with VV N140.
Do you mean I need a filler?
I'll post the results...

Dirk

[Bob S]

I shot National Match COurse once with cast, ...

26C:

What were your scores?

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

I copied this from another board:

Thank you for your inquiry. The Model 700 5-R was a special run that we did in 2001. The 5-R rifling is the same type of rifling used on the M-24 SWS rifle. There are 5 lands opposed to the normal 6 lands. The lands are tapered at 110 degrees. This leads to less bullet deformation for greater accuracy.
. ... felix


Do you suppose that these are Obermeyer barrels? My Palma rifle has an Obermeyer 5-R, and it performs as advertised with Palma loads. Never tried cast in it, though.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[4060MAY]

Ken
I shoot Sil. with a No3 Ruger in 30-40 Krag, 1-10 twist
314299/32 Varget knocks Rams over with reasonable accuracy, taking into account recoil and flinching.
The 30-40 is about the same case capacity as the .308 win.

41gr surplus 4350 works also but the recoil in a 8# gun is trying for me at 15 shots. WC852 slow works well also.
the MV/weight is at least 2000fps/200gr bullet, to consistently knock over rams, consistently being the key word.

Off the bench with a .357 levergun I knocked over two rams in a row one day, really surprised me. tang sight was taped on the stock, the gun belonged to 45-70bpcr from the list

[Ken]

I just got a 311644 mould that i am going to try. It looks like it should shoot. It is a tapered bullet.

[Ken]

I wish I could buy another 32 lbs of WC852. I am on my last 8 pounder

[Tom W.]

4350 beats the crap out of me, but shoots really well, at least in my 30/06 A.I. Haven't tried it in the Savage yet, as I'm going to try Varget first....