FN FAL or AR-10?

[43PU]

My Wife has given me permission to buy a semi auto 308, I don't have one, I know, I know. I have Plenty of semi 30-06 (6 M1s and a couple of Remington's) and Plenty of 8mm Mausers in semi, G43, FN49, Hakim and so forth. But I want a semi 308. A M14 is what I want but out of my price range. SO what would you get a AR-10 or a FN FAL (L1A1)

43 PU

[BattleRife]

To me, this comes with a big qualifying question: are you going to set it up as a modern combat carbine or as a classic, cold war rifle?

With fixed stock, open sights and the other hallmarks of pre-video game rifles I would go with the L1A1. But if you are going to make a railed wonder with a Keurig machine mounted off the front handguard a modern incarnation of the AR-10 would be the choice.

And if you want to really turn heads scrounge the markets and get a vintage AR-10 built on a semi-auto receiver. Best of both worlds.

[45 2.1]

Either will serve you well, but it really depends on just how you want to use it.

[Scharfschuetze]

The only SLRs (FALs) that I ever fired were the US Army's T48s that were made by H&R for the 7.62 rifle competition that ended up going with the M14. I found them to be an accurate rifle through something like 600 yards or so, but the sights on them really limited precision shooting or fine trajectory adjustment. The sheet metal dust cover over the action did not dispose itself well for secure scope mounting if that is your wish.

The only AR10 rifles that I fired were the SR25 SWC that I used on one deployment. They were as accurate and reliable as the M24 that I normally used. They also had the ability to securely mount a good scope and I see them at the range now with rails to hold most any kind of accessory.

Both have their advantages such as a gas piston for the SLR as well as a more robust construction. The AR10 series in its modern renditions can accommodate lots of different sighting systems and I think that the basic design is more accurate than the SLR. It's not as tough a battle rifle in extremis though and I've never really liked its self-fouling impingement gas system. For looks I just don't think you can beat an SLR, but then we normally don't buy a rifle to look at.

If it were me? For the memories or just for fun, I'd certainly buy an SLR; but for serious range time or hunting I'd get the AR10. With the proper iron sights on it, you could use it in the any rifle class of the National Match course or with a scope on it you could use it as an F Class rifle or as a pretty good deer rifle. If you already use the AR15 class of rifles or have served in the US Military at anytime since 1968 or so, you are already familiar with its operation.

[Artful]

It's up to you, What you want - you want, but considerations....
1) FN FAL / L1A1/SLR was used by over 90 countries, still in production today on limited basis by an American company - Accuracy and sights are battlefield (min of man) not Target - I was real happy when I got 1 1/2" groups out of some Santa Barbara ammo. Two different types of Magazine in use "inch" for L1A1 or Meteric for most other countries outside British sphere of influence. (though some Inch guns will work with Metric).
The heyday of imports of kits and receivers is long gone but some spare parts are still out there and enough stuff to meet 922 compliance.

2) AR10 platform has been around quite awhile but never standardized, So you have more than one maker using different magazines - even internal parts. The US Military Adopted Kight's Armament version as the M110. This is the version I would copy if I was building one due to accuracy and magazine availability as well as commonality of AR15 components used.

Having said the above I have several FAL's and find them to my liking, I have shot friends AR10's and while more accurate than my FAL they do seem to malfunction more often. But if I was to pick one to build today for myself it would be the AR10/SR25/M110 pattern platform.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTaeCVHZy5A

[BruceB]

The DSA Extreme mount for the FAL rifles answers the concerns expressed above.

It's very rugged and secure, and on my own rifle it has not shifted zero at all over quite a few rounds. It's NOT a quick-detachable item like the original dust cover, but using QD rings on the Picatinny rail allows almost an instant shift to iron sights if needed.

I think the price is about $80, and worth every penny.... especially when we consider the investment already made in obtaining the rifle itself!

[offshore44]

I have and often shoot an StG58 (Austrian metric FAL). I have the DSA scope mount top cover and second BruceB's recommendation. My StG58 is really my favorite rifle for general plinking and shooting, now that it is shooting cast well.

However, I would recommend an AR10 variation. Accuracy, parts availability, magazine availability are becoming an issue with the FAL's and are getting better for the AR10's. The one thing that the FAL design has going for it is that they are VERY hard to stop. One long term experiment has 16,000 rounds through an FAL with no cleaning.

[gew98]

My exeriance with reliability of 308 AR's has me not liking them. My experiance with quality built L1A1's has me loving them. I have a pre 94 Enterprise L1A1 that is all brit but the receiver. It shoots better than I can and is ergonomic as can be asked for in an issue configration weapon.

PS I like some points of the metric FAL...but the L1A1 versions are "mo better' as they say.

[Artful]

Parts availability, magazine availability are becoming an issue with the FAL's and are getting better for the AR10's.

The one thing that the FAL design has going for it is that they are VERY hard to stop. One long term experiment has 16,000 rounds through an FAL with no cleaning.
Parts are important and you want good reliable magazines...!

Ol' Dirty from 2008 - still not cleaned to this day - still functioning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3pFWU54skA
Inside the handguards
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab179/JamesFN/Falfiles%20posted%20photos/IMG_1640_zps8c5b2a01.jpg
Bolt Face
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab179/JamesFN/Falfiles%20posted%20photos/IMG_1638_zpsa08ccf14.jpg
Extractor
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab179/JamesFN/Falfiles%20posted%20photos/IMG_1635_zpsf534003f.jpg
Bolt Carrier
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab179/JamesFN/Falfiles%20posted%20photos/IMG_1633_zpsd9bd4b10.jpg
Receiver
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab179/JamesFN/Falfiles%20posted%20photos/IMG_1654_zpsee404287.jpg
Ejector/mag well
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab179/JamesFN/Falfiles%20posted%20photos/IMG_1623_zps5a0e30ad.jpg
Gas System parts
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab179/JamesFN/Falfiles%20posted%20photos/IMG_1666_zpsb622ed53.jpg
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab179/JamesFN/Falfiles%20posted%20photos/IMG_1661_zpsb754c193.jpg
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab179/JamesFN/Falfiles%20posted%20photos/IMG_1652_zps8229a13f.jpg
Gas Plug
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab179/JamesFN/Falfiles%20posted%20photos/IMG_1701_zps06c6f809.jpg


My exeriance with reliability of 308 AR's has me not liking them.

Got to remember a ton of research was done to get the AR15 to be reliable
- same path for the AR10/M110 is now going on
- so reliability is going to increase over time for the AR10/M110 platform.
Some of the first AR10 clones for commercial sales were not good at all.
My friends Sudanese (Dutch made?) was reliable!

[Artful]

1957 AR10 prototype from Knight's collection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCmHxieQduE

review of modern S&W M&P 10
http://www.gunblast.com/SW-MP10.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/images/SW-MP10/DSC09599.jpg

DPMS review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cg56Ur4COo
http://www.aftermath-gaming.net/timo/pics/LR308Current.jpg

AR10 suppressed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZlUoIm0oEg

[Ickisrulz]

Wait 5 years for the AR 308 to become standardized and perfected. Prices will come down to today's AR15 levels also.

[dragon813gt]

Wait 5 years for the AR 308 to become standardized and perfected. Prices will come down to today's AR15 levels also.

I don't know if it will ever be standardized. It's going to take a military contract to do that. In the mean time it's in a manufacturer's best interest to keep them proprietary. This means they are the only source of parts for a consistent revenue stream. This could back fire on them. I'm hoping for standardization but it's years out at a minimum.

[freebullet]

Artful tell the truth you've been running goex through that crud monster huh? Lol. I'll never understand why folks treat their guns as shown above. I'm all for endurance tests and such but treating a decent gun like a piece of garbage isn't something I can do. I bet the percentage of folks who never clean or lube their guns is high based on what I see in the field and on the range.

I'd go lr308 or ar10 and I'd clean & lube it when done punishing it.

[Artful]

Ol' Dirty isn't mine - and as far as I know James only adds Oil when it runs too sluggish.

[Ickisrulz]

I don't know if it will ever be standardized. It's going to take a military contract to do that. In the mean time it's in a manufacturer's best interest to keep them proprietary. This means they are the only source of parts for a consistent revenue stream. This could back fire on them. I'm hoping for standardization but it's years out at a minimum.

The desire to add after market items means standardization would generate sales. That's the way I think anyway.

[dragon813gt]

The desire to add after market items means standardization would generate sales. That's the way I think anyway.

It would mean sales for the manufacturer of the after market items. The firearm manufacturers want to sell rifles, not all things Mall Ninja. Standardization would be good and hopefully it happens.

[DCM]

AR-10 I Had failed to extract in cold weather more often than not, sold it. Tried multiple times in cold weather with different ammo.
Only FAL I ever shot failed to feed in a real bad way, there were 2 others on the firing line that cold day functioning poorly too. We were all using new FN ball ammo.
Just My real world experience with each nothing more.

[Ickisrulz]

It would mean sales for the manufacturer of the after market items. The firearm manufacturers want to sell rifles, not all things Mall Ninja. Standardization would be good and hopefully it happens.

My point is that some people will not buy something they cannot customize or change to their liking.

[historicfirearms]

Get the FAL. I've had both and still have the FAL. The AR10 was accurate but unreliable. It also didn't stir my emotions like the FAL does.
Get a quality FAL and you will love it.

[BruceB]

My only AR10 experience was with an Artillerie Inrichtingen (ORIGINAL) AR10 from a '50s-'60s Sudanese contract.

Made in the Netherlands, this rifle failed to impress me... at a time when I simultaneously owned the AR10, an original HK91, a couple of genuine M-14s, and several FALS (all inch-pattern).

These rifles were used extensively in one of the coldest climates on this Earth... Canada's Arctic. When properly prepared, all except the AR worked perfectly in forty-below-zero. So did my AR180 rifles in .223. The Canadian-made FAL, the C1/C1A1 series, also worked perfectly in military conditions including extreme cold.... it was my issued rifle during my time in the Canadian Army. The current SA58 (DSA FAL) in my safe is also a VERY reliable rifle, and it has never seen a factory-loaded cartridge.

Even now, in the evening of my life, I find that I can't make a choice between the FAL and M14/M1A. I suppose that's why I still own both types.

[GabbyM]

So does anyone have any dope on the latest offering from DPMS? The GII . Supposed to be lighter and have dual extractors. I had wondered what the heck they needed dual extractors for then read above post mentioning failure to extract.

First thing an AR 30 caliber would have to do to get me interested is get the weight within a pound of a bolt gun. Then reliability and accuracy. Since my FN Winchester M70 in 30-06 with 24" barrel will out shoot at long range any AR I've encountered and will also empty all the ammo I can carry in a matter of minutes. I am hard to impress. Have my M15 in 38 Special caliber for close ups. Also am an old and slow guy. But a repeater under 9 pounds with 22 inch barrel would get interesting. Baffle's me why anyone in there right mind would chose to shoot a 16" barrel 7.62. Nine rounds through one without very good hearing protection and you'll be hearing impaired for life.

[Jupiter7]

The LR308 platform has taken off in past two years. If you want to mount a scope, the ar308 is the ticket. Honestly, I'd build over buying. Fal's are awesome but in my opinion best served as an iron sighted rifle, same as a M1a/garand.

[NoAngel]

Ar10 hands down. Parts are easier to come by and they are exponentially easier to work on. Magpul makes magazines and there are just so many more options.

[43PU]

So we are 50-50% now lol

43PU

[PAT303]

Ar10 hands down. Parts are easier to come by and they are exponentially easier to work on. Magpul makes magazines and there are just so many more options.
I've never understood that way of thinking,I buy something because I want it,I couldn't care less if mags are cheaper for something else or because it has more ''tactiTOOL'' parts for it,I feel the same about vehicles,the reason I have two Land Rover Defenders instead of any ''Oh what a Recall'' models. Pat

[Lead Fred]

If I were ever to have a need for a semi 308, first (and only choice M1a)
Second choice would be the FNAR

125710

[scarry scarney]

It's your money, but if I had the choice, it would be the FN/FAL (L1A1). I've shot them both. It's just everywhere I look, I see the AR. Where I am at, I just don't see to many FN/FAL's. I also know that with the AR-10, there are too many variables. I believe there are three different AR-10's, and the mag's don't interchange. I might be wrong here, so don't flame me. I know on the FN/FAL platform, you have inch vs metric, so there are differences here as well. I also have fond memories of the FN from while I was overseas.

[DR Owl Creek]

So we are 50-50% now lol

43PU

If you would have included the metric version of the FAL in your poll, it would have blown both of the other two out of the water. [smilie=l:


Dave

[45 2.1]

If I were ever to have a need for a semi 308, first (and only choice M1a)
Second choice would be the FNAR

125710

Both good choices.......... the FNAR is a very accurate rifle also...........

[NoAngel]

I've never understood that way of thinking,I buy something because I want it,I couldn't care less if mags are cheaper for something else or because it has more ''tactiTOOL'' parts for it,I feel the same about vehicles,the reason I have two Land Rover Defenders instead of any ''Oh what a Recall'' models. Pat


That's what sets the AR platforms apart. No one is forcing you to put Tacti-çrap stuff on there. You can look classy, sleazy or mall ninja, all user friendly too. Turnbull customs makes a color case hardened, all steel, wood furniture AR-10 if that's your game. The AR has fewer moving parts and requires a lot less involvement to learn the little nuances that make them tick.
Optics are plug and play for the AR10. You can't run out anywhere and get what it takes to put a scope on an FAL.

The FAL is a rugged beast of a rifle. Tuff as nails and does what it was designed to do VERY well. It doesn't lend itself to modification or match grade accuracy....and yes, they can be very accurate but not on par with an AR10 or the FNAR.

[M-Tecs]

My Wife has given me permission to buy a semi auto 308, I don't have one, I know, I know. I have Plenty of semi 30-06 (6 M1s and a couple of Remington's) and Plenty of 8mm Mausers in semi, G43, FN49, Hakim and so forth. But I want a semi 308. A M14 is what I want but out of my price range. SO what would you get a AR-10 or a FN FAL (L1A1)

43 PU

I would holdout for what I want. I love the M14/M1A's. I have three. I also have a couple of AR 10's but I have not fallen for them like the M14/M1's. I don't have enough experience with the FN FAL (L1A1) to comment.

Buds has a base model starting at $1,273 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_41/products_id/84428/Springfield+M1A+STD+308+GRN+COMP. I have seen some used NM rifles for under a grand recently.

Good read on FN FAL's http://www.guns.com/2014/03/03/fn-fal-free-worlds-right-arm/

[A pause for the COZ]

Wait 5 years for the AR 308 to become standardized and perfected. Prices will come down to today's AR15 levels also.

Thats starting to happen now!!!
I had been on the hunt for a while. Found the real FAL's cost way more than i wanted to pay. I did not want to enter into the unknown with a used Century model.

The M14 style cost too much.

The AK variants cost reasonable. But was not my 1st choice or 2nd choice.

AR10 builds were scary to me since their is no standardization yet. Buying a pre built was expensive.
Until now!!!!

Palmetto has broken the mold for an entry level AR10 with the PTAC TAC10 16 inch carbine.
Looks like the price has went up just a bit since the Black Friday deal they had.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18778/s/ptac-tac10-16-carbine-length-308-win-1-10-rifle/

Got mine for $699 thats AK 308 money. So of course I jumped at it. Scratched both my itches.

So far I am a happy camper. Does every thing I expected and more. As long as your not expecting a $1500 gun in a $699 package. Its all good.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9665_zpsb1f1cf09.jpg

Still going to get a FAL some day, but now can wait till I find the right one for the right money.

[Ickisrulz]

Thats starting to happen now!!!
I had been on the hunt for a while. Found the real FAL's cost way more than i wanted to pay. I did not want to enter into the unknown with a used Century model.

The M14 style cost too much.

The AK variants cost reasonable. But was not my 1st choice or 2nd choice.

AR10 builds were scary to me since their is no standardization yet. Buying a pre built was expensive.
Until now!!!!

Palmetto has broken the mold for an entry level AR10 with the PTAC TAC10 16 inch carbine.
Looks like the price has went up just a bit since the Black Friday deal they had.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18778/s/ptac-tac10-16-carbine-length-308-win-1-10-rifle/

Got mine for $699 thats AK 308 money. So of course I jumped at it. Scratched both my itches.

So far I am a happy camper. Does every thing I expected and more. As long as your not expecting a $1500 gun in a $699 package. Its all good.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9665_zpsb1f1cf09.jpg

Still going to get a FAL some day, but now can wait till I find the right one for the right money.


I'd like to see an AR 308 rifle that is as reliable as top tier AR15s (e.g., BCM) for the same price. The PSA-10 looks promising, but has had some growing pains if the internet can be believed. The Aero Precision 308 looks good too. I just don't want to be the beta tester. I'm going to wait until a know quality and pattern is established.

[Dave18]

it sure seems the fal is like the ak, it just runs and runs, remember ole dirty is up to 16000 rounds, how many AR10s or m1a have you seen act up on a few hundred rounds, (more than a few )

but guns are like women, everyone has their likes and dislikes,


but the fal is hard to beat, for a basic rifle,

[A pause for the COZ]

I have about 500 rounds through mine with out issue. but of course I cant speak for any one else. But for me its a win.

[dragon813gt]

I'm liking that FNAR. A little odd looking but it's price is reasonable.

[country gent]

Another aspect of the AR10 that needs to be considered is another upper and it can be switched to 243, 260 rem, 7-08. I have an AR10 that I rebarreled the original upper to 243 win with a krieger barrel 1-7 twist for long range accross the coarse rifle matches. With 105 grn jlks it is a laser at 600 yds ( 9 mins from 200 to 600 yds) beats the wind nicely, and will pretty much hold the 1 1/2" spotting disc when I steer it right. I have also built a second upper in 22-250 with a second upper krieger 1-7 twiat barrel. Again this rifle shoots way better than most can hold it. With 80 grn vlds its 7mins from 200 to 600 yds. For those days when the wood chucks charge your position. I have also considered another upper in 338 federal lately. A new upper and pop pins caliber can be changed easily. I did have to modiy mags for the 22-250, but it is worth it. My uppers are set up with a custom made rail extension that allows scope mounting or my warner match rear sight. Muzzles are turned so my ladder front fits. Lower is set up with jewel trigger and a cross over bolt release just below the mag release. These parts I made.

[sojerguy]

Gotta disagree with both choices. I ran across a FN49 (Argentinian conversion) in .308 and tried it out against 2 FN-FALs, 1x M1A, a HK91 clone (wonderful sights), with a variety of ammo over about 3 months. Ended up selling my FN-FAL and my HK clone.

My buddy that loaned me his metric Fal (to match my inch pattern one), and the M1A has sold both (after acquiring his FN-49).

Just a flat out wonderful rifle.

[Artful]

FN49

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n636/MountainPrepper/Camping/Firearms%20Parts/FN49_308_action.jpg

Wow - cool '49, I was aware that the FN49 came in more calibers than any other military rifle and was sold directly from FN on a contract basis to each of the individual countries, and even a few individuals, police forces and companies while in production. But had not seen this version.

According to sources on the net wiki has some of the information wrong,


FN did not modify the bulk of the Argentine rifles, in fact FN only converted ONE as a test on order from the Argentine Navy... The full contract to conversion was produced by Metalurgica Centro/Halcon in Argentina. They did a nice job and at first I thought the stamped numbers indicated an FN job, no, MCH copied the stampings and matched the rifles to the conversion parts. Every rifle in the Argentine contract except a few samples purchased by individuals and museums was converted - over five thousand.

The contracts were Argentine, Belgian, Belgian Congo, Brazilian, Colombian, Egyptian, Indonesian, Luxembourg, Luxembourg Police, and Venezuelan, there were Sniper versions and many prototypes, presentation models and special orders for small orders even some individuals...

Who's magazine was modified for the '49?

[BruceB]

Oh well..... "differences of opinion make horse races."

I owned, loaded for, and extensively fired FN49 rifles in both 7.92x57 (Egypt) and .30-06 (Colombian I think).

This experience came along well after I'd been shooting various FAL rifles, and the '49 didn't seem TO ME to be a better rifle than the FALs.

In fact, I could clearly see the improvements in the '49 design which were incorporated into the later rifles.

Even so, a man with a good FN49 is a very well-armed gentleman indeed....

[Artful]

Ah, Columbian FN49 in .30'06 - I still regret not getting the chromed one I saw at a gun shop back in the 80's.
I had my heart set on a Garand so turned it down.

[Bob Busetti]

FAL by all means.

[pacomdiver]

I have a metric fal, a m1a, a cetme and 2 armalite ar10s,(one 18.5in dmr and a carbine) I prefer the ar10s way more than the fal, which is why my fal sits in the safe. my 10s mags are based off the m14 mag, so they latch right in my m1a, win win. the sights are so much better, the fal is a PITA to mount a scope and I put a troy rail on the m1a to solve the cheezy mount to keep the scope solid

[ProfGAB101]

If its my life on the line, I'd hope to be carrying a FAL. The iron sights keep a man honest instead of doing something brave and stupid, like shooting farther than a 100% sure thing.

[DR Owl Creek]

The DSA FAL scope mount/replacement top cover is as solid as a rock. It's easy to put on too. There are others that are cheaper, but it's the best one out there.

Dave

[Artful]

It's not hard to scope a FAL with right parts.
from this
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/364.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/364.jpg.html)
to this...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/349.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/349.jpg.html)
in 15 min.

But less and less FAL parts are available every year and the price to build one goes up.

More AR-10 makers around now then in any time in my memory.

[Ickisrulz]

I see on various sites that the FAL is not the most accurate thing out there. Something like 3-4 MOA. Any truth to this? I know the AR 308s do better.

http://www.dsarms.com/popup.aspx?title=FAQ&topic=Metric%20and%20Inch%20pattern#9

[Combat Diver]

I love the FAL, had a FN and a SA/Imbel SAR-48 Bush rifle with a ARMs scope mount. Have also used couple Belgians that I acquired in Iraq. Same token used a M14 NM in Iraq. Used to have a Venezuelian 49 in 7x57. Now on the AR10 have used the Knights SR25 Mk11 in Haiti and worked on them in Afghanistan. They all work if you keep them maintained. Couple of other notes on the AR10 platform. Easier to suppress, better support, easy to change stocks, triggers and more parts available. One thing I haven't understood is why no one chambers the AR10 in .358 Winchester. I'll buy one in a heart beat.


CD

[M-Tecs]

my 10s mags are based off the m14 mag, so they latch right in my m1a, win win.


The AR-10B magazine does not have the latch plate on the rear surface like that of the M-14 magazine. What locks it into the M14?

[pacomdiver]

the new armalite mags don't have the tab anymore, the early ones that were converted from m14's during the awb still did and I converted ones from my m1a, its just a milled notch on the side

[Artful]

I see on various sites that the FAL is not the most accurate thing out there. Something like 3-4 MOA. Any truth to this? I know the AR 308s do better.

http://www.dsarms.com/popup.aspx?title=FAQ&topic=Metric%20and%20Inch%20pattern#9

Depends upon who built it and if the gun likes the ammo - most FAL's are shot with surplus ammo - and there are vast differences in the accuracy of those. I have the one FAL with the scope on it - it will shoot 1 1/2 with the Santa Barbara ammo it liked. It shoots 4 - 6 inches or larger with Paki surplus - DAG german surplus shot 1 1/2 to 2 inches in that same rifle. I don't try generally load for guns I use surplus ammo with - but I have on occasion just to see - my HK91 with correct load shot several 3/4x7/8 inch 100 yard groups with iron sights and me shooting it - I let someone who was a better high power shooter try it and those groups shrunk some. But the AR-10 design is a better accuracy platform than the FAL, I would agree.

[M-Tecs]

the new armalite mags don't have the tab anymore, the early ones that were converted from m14's during the awb still did and I converted ones from my m1a, its just a milled notch on the side

Thanks. Learned something new.

[Artful]

M-Tecs (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?5251-M-Tecs) lots to learn about AR-10 / SR-25 / M110 magazine compatibility

http://308ar.com/compatibility.htm
There are three main styles of magazines in the .308 AR's, and a mythical 4th.

From Most prevalent to least:

Original AR10 style mags (including KAC mags, and PMAG-LR)
work with
KAC (Knights Armament Company)
LMT (Lewis Machine Tool)
Larue
DPMS
LWRCI
Sig 716
2013 Armalite
2013 Bushy
2013 S&W

Eagle Arms/Armalite AR-10 a modified M1A style mag w/ slot milled in side for mag catch
Pre 2013 'new' Armalite AR-10
Noveske N6

Hk417 mags
Hk417
MR308

FN FAL Metric Mags
~2006 Bushmaster -- not sure if any actually shipped other than SHOT demo models

Realistically the 7.62 AR standard mag is the KAC Mag based on the original Gene Stoner AR10 magwell.
With over 17,500 SR-25 style guns (M110/Mk11/M110K1) shipper to US and Allied government
- and at least 10 mags for each gun sold
- its pretty much been solidified for new manufacturers by the introduction of the PMAG-LR by Magpul.

[M-Tecs]

Artful. I was aware of most of that. What I was not aware of was the AR10B Generation I mags left the latch plate on the rear surface of the M-14 magazine. The AR10B Gen II mags do not.

The 2013 Armalite reference as to type of mag is not correct. Armalite is currently producing both styles of lowers AR10A & AR10B. Armalite is only manufacturing the Gen II mags but they do resell PMAGs for the AR10A's they make.

http://308ar.com/AR-10A_VERSUS_%20AR-10B.htm

http://www.armalite.com/images/Manuals%5CAR10BAJULY13.pdf

I have Armalite AR10B's, M-14/M1A's and a Tubb 2000 that takes original style AR10 Mags. It gets confusing at times since the Gen II's and the originals look the same but they will not work if you grab the wrong one. Just for this reason I wish my two AR10B's where AR10A's. I purchased them before the M110 was adopted.

[bruce drake]

I've owned and used M14s, AR10, HK91 and CETMEs over my long career in the military and I've borrowed and used a FAL one time.

I voted AR10 in the poll as the FAL is only being built by DSA currently while multiple companies are re-developing the AR10 rifle. DSA loves their rifles and are nearly the same price as most M1As being built today. Funny thing is that the only 308 Semi-Auto that I own is a Century built CETME that is more than accurate and dependable enough for a range rifle out to 200 yards. I wouldn't take her out to a highpower match but she shoots cast and jacketed equally well.

Bruce

[DR Owl Creek]

I see on various sites that the FAL is not the most accurate thing out there. Something like 3-4 MOA. Any truth to this? I know the AR 308s do better.

http://www.dsarms.com/popup.aspx?title=FAQ&topic=Metric%20and%20Inch%20pattern#9

Like Artful says, it depends.

There are, or were, a vast number of different FAL part sets available at one time. Some saw very little use and were in very good condition. Others were heavily used and really ragged out.

Back in the mid 1990's, I bought an Austrian StG58 parts set from DSA. When I received it, I was really surprised. It had that "never fired and only dropped once" look. I ordered two more right away, and they were just as nice as the first once. I had these built using Imbel receivers, and with decent milsurp ammo, like LC '84 and LC '85, and with iron sights, they will shoot far better than 3 MOA.

Shortly after that, I also bought an Israeli heavy barrel parts set from a place in Minnesota that is no-longer in business. The condition of that one more than made up for how nice the first three were. I ended up trading that one to the guy who reparkerized my StG58/Imbel rifles, as part of the deal for doing the refinishing.

I also have a DSA SA58 Paratrooper that I ordered right after the Clinton gun ban expired. That one, with a scope and handloads tailored to it, will shoot just as accurately as my scoped Springfield Armory "loaded package" rifle with handloads tailored for it. It would have to be a really good AR10 to beat either of those in terms of accuracy. IMO.

I really like my .308's. I would still like to have a really nicely set-up AR in .308, but that probably isn't going to happen very soon, unless I hit the lottery.

Dave

[DR Owl Creek]

BTW:

I love that "poll" at the top of the page. I keep watching the numbers. Right now it's:
L1A1 36 56.25%
AR-10 29 45.31%

That means that 101.56% of the voters have spoken. It's been like that all the way along. Must be the new "maf"... :drinks:


Dave

[Artful]

You missed the part above it that show 64 total votes but 36+29=65 - sounds like a chicago voting machine.

[SAndy37]

I own 4 FALs, a SIG 716 and a SIG 510 AMT. There is a reason why I own 4 FALs. Not the most reliable rifle, but battle reliable, not the most accurate, but battle accurate, not the most everything, but it carried me through some tough times....
it works, and just works. My 716 ( I'm a SIG junkie) is h ard to run, accurate as sin, but a bitch to shoot, same with the 510. I carry a FAL on duty every day in a fairly hardcore environment on duty as a LEO and have no problems.( South African police)
dont know if this adds anything here, but here goes...

[Patrick56]

If you find a AR10 made in Eindhoven, Holland it is a real collectors gun. I tried out one back in 1977. It was the version with the Stellite barrell liner. Nice gun but I think I would opt for a metric FN FAL Paratrooper.

[DR Owl Creek]

You missed the part above it that show 64 total votes but 36+29=65 - sounds like a chicago voting machine.

You're right. I was so mesmerized by the percentages, I didn't notice the actual numbers.

Now there's another thing I have to watch. :veryconfu


Dave

[Lowpower]

Poll over?

I owned an original FN FAL but sold it off because that pencil barrel starts spraying bullets around after the 4th shot.
I used to shoot it scoped out to 300 yds. I've shot a friends AR-10 which was up to the task at 300 yds. keeping the group much closer.
I normally shoot 600 yds using my old mil rifles and take my target, bolt actions out to 1K.

I f I had to chose between the two I'd go with the AR platform. If I had to actually carry one around for extended periods of time. I'd toss
them for an AR-15 for no other reason I can carry more ammo for the same or less weight. I'm really not fond of AR-15's either being old
and all and having them shoved down our throats. 50 Years of tinkering with the things did what?

Imho you can take a pig out of the stye and stick him in a pool but he's still a pig.

Bob

[Multigunner]

The British were interested in a Sniper rifle based on an updated AR-10 type platform.
Its supposed to be pretty accurate.
The Philipines were using an AR-15 type rifle as a sniper rifle, though its more like a designated marksman rifle.

[gew98]

Poll over?

I owned an original FN FAL but sold it off because that pencil barrel starts spraying bullets around after the 4th shot.
I used to shoot it scoped out to 300 yds. I've shot a friends AR-10 which was up to the task at 300 yds. keeping the group much closer.
I normally shoot 600 yds using my old mil rifles and take my target, bolt actions out to 1K.

I f I had to chose between the two I'd go with the AR platform. If I had to actually carry one around for extended periods of time. I'd toss
them for an AR-15 for no other reason I can carry more ammo for the same or less weight. I'm really not fond of AR-15's either being old
and all and having them shoved down our throats. 50 Years of tinkering with the things did what?

Imho you can take a pig out of the stye and stick him in a pool but he's still a pig.

Bob


Well bob , I don't have flyer issues with my L1A1. I have had reliability issues with the AR clones in 308 , which is why I won't have one. If I have to sacrifice a wee bit of accuracy for reliability it's a no brainer to do. It's not like one would be going down the bullet hose AK way.

[GCBurner]

I think the AR10 is more inherently accurate of the two rifles in the poll, but my personal preference in a .308 battle rifle is my M14, built on a parts kit from the CMP and a new semi-auto receiver and Criterion barrel from Fulton Armory. As I recall, it ran less than $1k, it's accurate, it's reliable, and USGI parts and magazines abound. I doubt if the CMP will ever get any more parts kits for the M14, but there are othersw out there that have them.

[Lindenwood]

I went with the Ar10 platform (DPMS LR308 Carbine, Gen1). I felt like, as has been mentioned, their consumer popularity was on the rise vs on the decline, which meant more parts and accessory availability than the others. The only other option I was looking at was the M1A SOCOM II, which I think looks better, but it was significantly more expensive and didn't offer anything in return.

I have put 1300 rounds through it in about 3 months so far. I was going to not clean it for a while to see how it ran, but my wife expressed an interest in shooting it which led me to pursue reduced loads. So, I cleaned it after a 350-round string, only to give the reduced loads a chance. Turns out it will run on about 800ft-lbs of energy (I have gotten reliable cycling down to 1500fps with a 150gr bullet). Other than expected malfunctions from extremely reduced loads as outlined above, I haven't had a single issue with it. It will even feed those 147gr FMJBT M80 ball bullets backwards (and they shoot about as poorly as forwards: 5-6MOA). I also had some good luck yesterday running .30 Carbine (110gr RN) bullets through it. Yesterday was the first time I ever tried a rear rest--well, a rolled-up towel under the grip--having previously only been using a bipod while prone. I shot two 5-shot groups with some 168gr AMax handloads, and got 1.0 and 1.3MOA with my non-magnified prismatic optic.

All in all, I am extremely pleased with my decision to go with this rifle. I was also torn between a .300BLK and the .308, and am really glad I went this route given how easy it has been to get recoil down to manageable levels for long practice sessions or for my wife. This is my first AR, my second centerfire rifle (owned a .308 Handi Rifle several years ago), and I had a 10-22 like 7 years ago that I sold to a friend.

Oh, and I paid $865 into my hands going through Gunbroker! Very accurate, runs on about anything off the shelf and even stuff most wouldn't dream up (backwards bullets? Haha), easy to work on, and tons of parts availability? I couldn't have asked for a better deal.

[43PU]

Well I went with the FN FAL, I found an IMBEL at a local gun store, it has the Rhodesian stock on it? with 5 mags and the bayo. I haven't shot it yet but it is the simplest gun I have ever seen..... now its time for some loads...

[Artful]

43PU - congratulations - got pic's?

[Artful]

M14 accuracy
http://looserounds.com/2015/01/30/the-m14-not-much-for-fighting-a-case-against-the-m14-legend/

[M-Tecs]

M14 accuracy
http://looserounds.com/2015/01/30/the-m14-not-much-for-fighting-a-case-against-the-m14-legend/

Interesting read. Personally I love the M-14's. I do not have any combat experience with them but I do know a couple of people that effectively used the MK 14, Mod 0 EBR in combat. Neither one of them cared much for the M110's. They preferred the MK 14, Mod 0EBR for better reliablity in the conditions in Afghanistan.

What I do have experience as is an armorer and team captain for a state National Guard Team. I have about 30K down range with a M-14 and the rifles I worked on totaled over a 1/2 mil down range under my tenure. One rifle had been rebarreled 11 times with the only broken parts being firing pins and a cracked flash suppressor. It did get new bedding and a complete inspection at every rebarrel. I rebarreled it three times but it had all of it's range cards so I knew its history.

I do agree that (after Clinton had all the parts destroyed) maintaining them with quality parts is an issues. For for ease of maintaining accuracy the M110’s clearly have an advantage.

After that the article is pretty much a hatchet job.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/2/23/the-m14-enhanced-battle-rifle/

http://www.m14.ca/articles/The_M14_EBR.pdf

[mj2evans]

Get a METRIC FAL (many more mags made so much cheaper). I have built a few FALs with friends and never run into problems with reliability (ok, brazed on one gas tube). Now you cannot get a decent free float tube for a FAL and you stuck with mil spec barrels so I would assume (no personal experience) the AR10 can be made more accurate. I don't plan on parting with any of my FALs even for straight up trade for a tricked out AR10.

[Multigunner]

http://looserounds.com/2015/01/30/the-m14-not-much-for-fighting-a-case-against-the-m14-legend/

The only thing said in that article that I would consider to be a legitimate concern was that some higher pressure cartridges like the M118LR if degraded by excessive heat could generate enough gas port pressure to cause a bent op rod.
Which is odd since the M14 self regulating gas system is designed to take into account variations in gas port pressures, and is designed for use with ball powders.
Aside from that I see nothing there but grousing about maintaining the rifle properly.
The M14/M1A has not been on my wish list but from my meager experiance with the M1A my only objection is that I don't much care for such a large magazine for a semi auto rifle. That could be easily taken care of by cutting down a mag to carry mag proportions of ten rounds or so, with spare 20 round mags handy if needed.

The fore end feels much like that of the No.4 Enfield, but I like the feel of the Garand fore end more. There have been synthetic replacement stocks that have the fore end with the same profile as the Garand.

For my purposes the M1A would serve better than either the FAL or the AR.

[M-Tecs]

More complete info on the 118LR history & issues. http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2012/02/cartridges-762-nato-long-range-match_04.html