.44 Ranch Dog mold

[44man]

Been working with the boolit in several alloys and sizes. In the Marlin it has shot exactly the same as all of my other boolits, no improvement. Shoots super at 50 yd's but goes to pot at 100. :???:
I have a letter to send to Marlin to see what they would charge to install a 1 in 20" barrel.
I tried it today in my SBH and it does not shoot as good as the Lee 310, my 330 or the 320 LBT. It is strange! With several loads I put 3 in the same hole where it was hard to see the 3 separate shots in the paper. Then 2 were wide fliers. Fliers occurred randomly. This happened over and over. More testing will be done of course but I don't see the consistancy that I get with my other boolits in the revolver. I am tending to blame the lack of bearing surface due to the little points between the grease grooves.
I can only conclude it is not a cure all for the Marlin and I won't use it in my revolver.

[softpoint]

Are you using this bullet in .444 or .44 magnum? I have a .444 that has ballard rifling, the throat is so short on this gun that I had to seat the RD bullet well below the crimpgroove to get it to chamber. Accuracy was acceptable, but I have a Lyman 300g. semi wadcutter that will chamber with the case crimped just overthe forward driving band and is more accurate in this gun. One of my friends has an older model .444 with micro groove and the RD bullet works fine in it, and is as accurate as about anything else we have tried in that gun.
I've used some of the bullets in one of my super blackhawk revolvers, and the advantage I see there is that it is about the heaviest bullet I can shoot in that gunwithout changing the front sight(Ihave others I have changed the front sight on) I like it in that revolver.

[jeff223]

James how does that gun shoot jacketed boolits?you could always shoot XTPs,Gold Dots or Hornady 265 grain flat nose

[Bass Ackward]

The only cure is lower bullet weight which will have a shorter length. Or a smaller meplat. Meplat size eats up stabilization too.

And if you are shooting cast, then a light weight bullet will still be heavy enough for deer. Seems like the possibilities are dwindling, it's either that or the gun show. :grin:

[hunter64]

Which Ranch Dog mold do you have? 265 or 300 grn? How fast are you pushing them? Water dropping or heat treating? What are they sized too, .430 etc ?

I had similar findings with my 300 grn mold in my microgroove barreled 444 until i sped them up, another-wards top velocities about the same as jacketed bullets. I bought the 265 grn mold and size them to .432 and shoot them fast also and no more problems.

As soon as I cast a couple hundred I use water as a lube and push them thru his lee .432 sizer with the gas check and into the oven at 450 f for 30 minutes and into the sink full of cold water. I hate the tumble lube crap all over the nose of the bullet and getting jammed up in the seating die so I hand dip ever bullet in the lube. I use a cap off of a spray can and fill the cap with the LLA mixed about 50/50 with mineral spirits. I then put them on wax paper to dry. I do this twice so the grooves are nice and full of lube, probably to much but I never have problems with leading. I let them sit for about a day and then scrap off any extra from the base and let the lead fully harden for about 1 month.

At 100 yards my best group has been 1.5" using 3031 and about the same using H322. No flyer's and no leading, couldn't ask for anything more from a lever gun.

[44man]

It is the 265 gr. I have shot from 240 to 330 gr bullets/boolits to over max with all the powders. From a spitzer to WFN and all do the same, shoot great at 50 but lose stability beyond that.
It is the .44 and I think that is why the slow twist won't work. At least in the .444, you can get more velocity and spin.
I tried air cooled and water dropped from 50-50, WW and my hard alloy. .430 to as cast at .434.
LilGun showed just a little improvement so far because I got a little more speed and it needs more testing.
It shoots good enough for deer with most loads but not good enough for the target shooting I wanted to do with it.
I might have to buy something else and just keep this as the grandsons deer rifle, it is his anyway. I will wait to see what Marlin says too.

[lovedogs]

44Man... I doubt Marlin will install another bbl. with a different twist. Most mfg. don't like to do other than what is their factory norm. Since you can't get shed of the rifle you may have to settle for shooting jacketed or settling for what you can get with cast. I read of many who aren't happy with the twist rate of the Marlin with cast and feel really fortunate that mine does so well. Hope you can come up with something you're happy with.

[Denver]

Another boolit worth trying if you can get ahold of some is the RCBS silhouette slug. RCBS # 429-240-SIL. I've no doubt the mold would have to be beagaled to get them fat enough for the Marlin. I never tried it in my Marlin 44 but have a mold for the 357. It shoots well out of my Marlin 357 94s, but I can't use the crimp groove as it makes the OAL too long to feed thru the action. I think it would give better stability and accuracy at longer ranges where your large meplat types are losing accuracy. Hate to see anybody have to resort to using "bullets". :(

:castmine:

[44man]

Denver, it is not only the WFN types. One of my boolits is a nose pour with only a small meplat from the sprue. It will shoot a very tiny 50 yd group but is actually the worst at 100. Even the nice RCBS Keith boolit goes haywire. I actually get better 100 yd groups with the Lee 310 gr. The RD boolit equals the Lee 310, just not better, as I hoped it would be. Boolit weight doesn't seem to have any effect for stability in the Marlin either. It might work with a round ball though! :mrgreen:
I have no stability problems with WFN boolits from my revolvers to 500 meters. Some of my best 100 yd groups have been shot with them. I have never believed the story that they are not stable and have proved it time and time again that they shoot accurately as far as you can get a boolit to reach. The only thing I see them do is drop a little more at long range. I see zero difference in accuracy between a WLN and a WFN at any range. I like them so well that all of my deer boolits are now the WFN. Deer thumpers supreme! :Fire:

[Denver]

I actually did shoot round balls in my 44 mag and they would shoot tighter groups out to 35-40 yds than would the other boolits until the bore leaded up, which kinda lead me to think that lighter boolits might be the way to go for the slow twist. Never had a mold for anything under 200 grs tho.

[44man]

I was thinking of casting round balls from my hard alloy, then putting some Felix lube in the case in front of the ball before crimping. Or just put some on the ball itself, the portion sticking out.
Might have to make a 180 gr boolit mold.

[Ranch Dog]

44 Man...

I hate hearing that the bullet is not shooting well in your Marlin rifle. I have no claim with the pistols, the bullet is not intended for them. I shot this group out of my 336-44 on the 12th of this month with 21.9-grains of H110, this is my favorite load with this rifle. The bullets alloy is a Lyman #2 clone, water quenched. I use the Lee sizer and Alox. Cartridge OAL was 1.56". This is what I expect. Velocity was 1600 FPS (71° & 29.64").

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TLC432TrophyRoom/Targets/33644/TLC432265RF_219_H110.gif
This is a 50-yard target shot during my pressure trace testing (group should be actual size on your screen). The POI is high as I have this rifle sighted with the 300-grain bullet at 100-yards.

Speaking of which, here is my final 100-yard sight-in with the TLC432-300-RF at 100-yards.
http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TLC432TrophyRoom/Targets/33644/TLC432300RF_210_H110.gif
I hunted whitetails on the ranch this year with this rifle. My load is 21.0-grains of H110 with a cartridge OAL of 1.61". Velocity is 1591 FPS (94° & 29.83").

I've shot thousands of them, they have plenty of bearing surface.

[Lloyd Smale]

44 man i watch these posts closely. As ive said ive got one thats the same. Mine seems to be a tad better then yours but isnt a tack driver by any means. I really wonder about this as my buddys got two 94s one with ballard and one with microgrove and both of his out shoot mine. I wonder if the porting is in some way effecting these guns. mine like yours shoots real well at 50 but opens up at a 100 and even at 50 yards took alot of load developement to find an exceptable load. Much more so then any other marlin ive owned. I just have never seen a gun that will shoot one inch at 50 yards open up to 4 inchs at a 100 and do it with about every bullet and load ive tried. I will get fooled once in a while and get a 2 inch 100 yard group and figure ive got it figured out and then the same load the next time is 4 inch. My favorite load with it is the 240 rcbs swcgc with 19 grains of 820. that load will shoot an inch or less at 50 and about 3 inch at a 100 but most other loads dont even come close. I dont get as wrapped up in it as you as that level of power and accuracy is fine for any hunting chore ill use the gun for but it does frustrate me that it is so finiky as its one of the slickest little rifles i own.

[miestro_jerry]

I shoot the Ranch Dog 300gr in my 44 Mag Contender Super 14 and it does extremely well. I Use 18.2 grains of H110 powder and a Magnum Primer.

Jerry

[44man]

RD, I am betting you have the micro groove. I have the so called Ballard that are the same depth as the micro grooves are, just less lands and grooves. I have less grip.
I am not blaming the boolit because I put 8 in 1/2" at 50 yd's. I blame the rifle.
As far as the revolver, there is something going on that I think I can solve. Twice I put 3 shots out of 5 into one tiny hole. I'm talking 1/8" and 3/16"! It could be my crimp die is sizing the boolit so I am going to try the other one. I might need a little larger expander too.
I had to pull 2 for some reason I don't remember and found they were smaller. ( OH yeah, they were neck sized and would not chamber the rear of the brass.) But I don't know if it was from being pulled from the crimp or if the brass or die sized them.
It could also be something as simple as the sand bag I was using.
I go out of my way with using different tools for the rifle because I don't worry about boolit pull as much. But I used my regular die setup for the revolver.
You might have designed it for the Marlin but it shows great promise in the revolver. I am going to work with it a lot. I have to find what caused the fliers, I am only talking 1-3/8" out.

[Ranch Dog]

RD, I am betting you have the micro groove. I have the so called Ballard that are the same depth as the micro grooves are, just less lands and grooves. I have less grip.

Interesting, which rifle is this (model/year)? The 336-44 is Micro-Groove with the 1:38. I do shoot this out of my 444P, with the ballard 1:20, and this was the rifle used when I developed the bullet.

I ask that you also remember that this bullet was designed for the 444 Marlin, without ever looking at the 44 Mag. I do have TMT chamber cast drawings of all, and will get them posted here soon for reference if you would like. I'm supposed to be doing something else now :neutral:

[Lloyd Smale]

gun is a 44p. A ported 18 inch ballard rifled gun

[felix]

44man, the typical 06 sizing die will size down the base of an oversized 44 mag fully loaded enough to get into some cylinders, chambers, etc. If not, try an 06 die for making a small base. Makes no difference that it is an exact 06, but of the 06 family, naturally. ... felix

[44man]

Yep, same gun as Lloyd's and same exact problems.
Felix, I neck size for my revolvers until they are shot so much they get hard to chamber, then I run them full length once and go back to neck sizing. I just got 2 of the over expanded ones mixed in. They were ready for the full length bit. It was my fault. I dumped them all in the tumbler and forgot to sort them.
This time around I just full length sized all of them so it doesn't happen again.
The only 06 die I have is my friends Lee collet since I sold most of my rifles.

[Ranch Dog]

Lloyd has a point about the ports or at least a point I've always wondered about. My guess is that the 1894P is very much like the 444P, a very large bore and groove diameter for caliber. Here are the TMT images of chamber casts taken from my rifles.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TMT/444 Marlin/444T/TLC432265RF_444T_Cutaway.gif http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TMT/444 Marlin/444P/TLC432265RF_444P_Cutaway.gif

Without a chamber cast or image of one for comparison, a couple of thoughts come to mind. Make sure that the sizer is not reducing the bullet below the intended .432". For my 444P, I've actually taken the sizer out a bit by polishing it so that the die just crimps on the gas check and the bullet is shot as cast. What I've run into with a .433" bullet is problems with bullet seating dies and the Lee pistol Factory Crimp Die. Basically, the bullet makes contact with the die body.

Somebody up stream mentioned the bullet needing to be seated deeper in their 444P. Marlin probably needs to look at that rifle. It is a tight fit with no freebore and a short throat, especially compared to the earlier rifles but it should be cut to accept up to a 2.55" OAL with this nose profile.

I've got the same type of images for my 336-44 if you would like to see them.

[Ranch Dog]

44 Man and Lloyd,

You didn't mention powder or charge, what are you using? I've found that my best has been near max loads of H110. Max for the "265" is 23.0 and for the "300" 21.0. I've shot H4227 and Lil Gun but velocities and accuracy doesn't compare. I've shot the pressure trace data for H110 in both bullets and have it waiting my time for formatting. I have to reshoot Lil Gun because I lost the strain gage while shooting the string, they have a finite life. I gave up on H4227 as it has some scary pressures.

Just as a reference, same story with my 444P. Great accuracy with max loads.

[runfiverun]

i dont think you could get 44 man to shoot 4227 anyways

[44man]

I started at 21 gr's of 296 and went to 23.5. Very little difference, all shot good at 50 but all were close to same large groups at 100.
I don't think the ports are hurting anything because of some of the super groups I have shot at 50. I still think they are not spinning fast enough and once the velocity drops it goes unstable.
I seated one boolit in one of my tight cases but did not crimp it. I pulled it and measured it and it was still .432. I rolled crimped them to shoot out of my SBH, instead of the profile crimp.