lever action magazine explosions

[jaystuw]

My title is deceptive. if you expected to see a tubular mag explosion pictured, its a disappointment.(maybe someone will show us one!) In truth, this thread is about bullet to primer explosions in under barrel magazines and how rare an event it is in sport shooting.

One might think under barrel tubular magazines are safe because shooters learn early to never put a pointed bullet in a mag tube, Its a corner stone of firearms safety.But Shooters also learn not to put fingers on the trigger and muzzle control, yet firearm mishandling is all to common. tubular mag blow-ups are almost unheard off. Are mag tube, bullet to primer explosions hard to do or is the ammo industry just good at making bullets lead faced, not to pointy and primer faces reasonable hard?

My feeling is that you need to be a reloader to blow up a under barrel tubular magazine - and you have to work at. A pointed fmj bullet and a fair amount of recoil are probably the easiest way to get into trouble. Also, maybe a softer pistol primer and a pointed hard lead bullet combination might work, who knows? Anyone ever seen a blown up or bulged lever action rifle magazine or know anything about it? Is blow up or explosion to strong of a description? Would a primer hit cartridge in the mag just bulge the tube or could it jam each bullet into the next primer and set off multiple cartridges? Is that enough to "blow up" the magazine tube with shrapnel and pieces like we see with a cartridge in the chamber of a rifle blow up? - seems implausible but I really don't know.

Jay

[Catshooter]

Jay,

I have never seen one. I've only seen pics of one. In a gun mag. It was in the eighties I think and the gun was the Ruger semi-auto 44 Mag. If I'm remembering right. The round was a 240 grain round nose full metal jacket and the nose was curved enough and hard enough to set off the primer in front of it in the mag.

They showed pics of the pieces of the rifle. Pretty impressive actually, the explosion took the rifle apart nicely.

I've never even heard of another example.


Cat

[jaystuw]

jeez Cat, I won't of expected the rifle to go to pieces! Wow, that's enough to get ones attention. I'm a little surprised stuff like that doesn't happen more often. This the first tube blow-up I have ever heard about and it wrecks the whole rifle. So, getting hurt in a mag tube explosion is real possibility! Jay

[Artful]

I also remember a few stories of Ruger Deer Stalker 44 mag's going up
http://www.retro.co.za/gundex/articles/GunDigest/TubularMagazinesAreSafe1.jpg
http://www.retro.co.za/gundex/articles/GunDigest/TubularMagazinesAreSafe2.jpg
http://www.retro.co.za/gundex/articles/GunDigest/TubularMagazinesAreSafe3.jpg
http://www.retro.co.za/gundex/articles/GunDigest/TubularMagazinesAreSafe4.jpg

Got this from Beartooth:

"Buffalo Bore went to a small rifle primer, seated deeper than normal, when some customers managed to have ammo go off in the magazine tubes. With the Marlins, it's apparently possible for a hard cast bullet with just the right meplat to get a bit cocked in the mag tube, and put the edge of the bullet nose on the primer of the cartridge ahead of it.

Email BB if you have questions, Tim was very upfront about this...."

we do have a thread from the past
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?142885-Tube-dentation
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?73196-how-flat-is-flat-nose-for-tube-mag&highlight=magazine+tube+explosion
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?179497-RN-bullets-in-levergun/page2&highlight=magazine+tube+explosion


http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15792

win375hh wrote:

I had a magazine tube detonation in my Marlin 1895SS while firing Buffalo Bore's 430 grain hard cast 45/70 ammo. Damage to the gun was limited to the magazine tube and I was unharmed. Upon contacting Buffalo Bore Tim Sundles informed the same thing happened to him with the same ammo. He places blame on the design of the Marlin 1895SS, says the "bump" in the rear of the mag tube causes round to tip and contact primer. He went to Marlin with this and they didn't buy it. He wanted my rifle sent to him so he could try again. I talked to several reliable sources, including the NRA and NSSF, who advised me to send rifle to Marlin.

The NSSF specificly recomended I Talk to Harold Watterman at Marlin. I sent the rifle to Marlin who promptly checked and repaired it. When I received the rifle it came with warning, "WE ADVISE NOT USING BUFFALO BORE AMMO!"

I posted this warning on the Marlin web site talk forum. Tim Sundles responded defending his ammo, as to be expected. In defense of his product he has resorted to telling bold face lies. He claims I told him I bought the rifle and his ammo and fired it without checking bore or cleaning--LIE! The rifle was cleaned and had 2 boxes of Federal 300 grainers fired through it before his ammo was even purchased. It is true it was my first Marlin 45/70 , but not my first rifle by a long shot. I have firearms ranging from 22LR to 375H&H Magnum for years and handloaded them safely in this time. He insinuates I am some ignorant first time shooter who blew up a gun and that is wrong.

The fact is there are TWO documented cases of Marlin mag tube detonations in the last 27 YEARS-BOTH WITH HIS AMMO!!

Instead of trying to blame the gun and lie about the shooter he should accept responsibility for his defective product!!
Thanks, Jim F.

...

I was firing Buffalo Bore's 430 grain hard cast through my Marlin 1895SS at the VFW range. Fired most of box singly and had some irratic performance by some of the ammo--ie..sticky extraction. Decided to finish off last four rounds off hand. I loaded one in chamber and three in the tube and proceded to fire. The first round went off without a hitch, so I worked the action {leaving two in the tube} and fired again. When the gun went off I noticed increase in recoil and stinging on my face. I didn't realize what had happened til I looked down at my gun. The action was jammed open about 1", the round that was at the bottom of the tube was now in the receiver UNDER the bolt while the final round was stuck in the mag tube with the case burst. Damage was limited to the mag tube assembly.

Tim Sundles believes that the "hump" was the cause, Marlin and Randy Garrett among others disagree. When I posted this on the Marlin Talk site a lot of guys starting tearing into their guns trying to figure it and come up with ways to prevent it--one guy tried using a piece of spring steel in the "bump" to force the cartridge to stay aligned.

I just find it hard to believe that if this was a design flaw it would have taken 27 years to show up and only be documented with one brand and load of ammo.

I don't know of any "official" meplat size guidelines you could use, Randy Garrett has formed a pretty strong opinion that meplats should be wider than the standard .300"--check his website for more info.

Thanks, Jim F.

Hmmm - the 1881 US Army trials do note 45-70 tubular magazine detonations...
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDUQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dtic.mil%2Fget-tr-doc%2Fpdf%3FAD%3DADA471224&ei=NTWdVNOgGJa3ogT56ILgBA&usg=AFQjCNEKZa37Vf-wcaIzXVWxLgU-ZbQzxQ&sig2=KYI7Tau94WyGEUIcObrifA&bvm=bv.82001339,d.cGU
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[muskeg13]

Here we go again. Do a search on this website: Magazine tube explosions. I recommend starting with: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?179497-RN-bullets-in-levergun/page2&highlight=magazine+tube+explosion My posts begin with #38. Photos are attached in this thread and in the links. I had 6 lead flat nose .44 Mag cartridges chain fire in my magazine explosion.

Here's another with more info and photos: http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45773

By the way, R.W. Ballou recanted part of his findings in later articles. In a personal letter to me, he agreed that not only can magazine explosions occur, but one can be seriously injured.

[GoodOlBoy]

Honestly I been around leverguns my whole life. Never seen it happen. Been hearing that stuff since I was a kid.

GoodOlBoy

[MT Gianni]

I saw one my gunsmith was rebuilding. The thoughts were a cocked swc hit a primer, what got me was the detonation went off the tube exploded then a few cartridges were not detonated while an upper one was. It may have been a high primer in there as well

[Artful]

It's real - but not real common - thank God

[starmac]

I would think with any tube detonation, that there would be a very good chance of injury.

[fouronesix]

Yep,
A smokeless cartridge igniting out in the open and by itself isn't much of a deal. I imagine there is just enough confinement by being stacked in a tube, the powder comes up to a much higher pressure resulting in a much bigger deal.

[jaystuw]

Thanks Artful for going to the trouble of posting so much great info, and an added thanks to all of the guys for posting your thoughts, feelings and insights. Sorry that this subject has been posted before and is old news. I usually watch the threads pretty closely but didn't catch it and did no research, just typed away! However,as a safety issue I think it doesn't hurt to bring it back on the radar and have a fresh look at it just for kicks.

Jay