Loads for 44-40 (.44wcf)

[Patrick56]

Hi, I am adding a Uberti Remington 1875 to my arsenal of odd calibers. I tried to search for threads about the 44-40 but could not find any? Would like to hear if somebody has used Vihtavuori powders in that caliber. Ordered Starline cases from Germany and reloading and sizing dies from Titan. I am going to use Lee .429 bullets in the 240gr range. Have to check the real diameter of the bore and throats when I get the gun.

[BUFFALOW RED]

hay im looking for some magnum reloading recipes for 44-40 my self . good luck to you on your new gun
i use 200 g big lube boolits i cast in a lee 6 cavety mold with starline brass, there made up the road in sedalia,mo.
lee dies on a 650 dillion pumps em out

[fouronesix]

Patrick,
Pushing a 44-40 revolver into magnum territory is not wise. Clear warnings are issued in reputable manuals that the do not exceed pressure for the cartridge and the revolvers designed for them is about 13,700 CUP. There are a bunch of threads on this forum that have covered loading the 44-40, but the search engine is not the best.

Loading blackpowder is very straight foreword. Fill the case to allow for a little bit of bullet compression, seat a fairly soft 200 gr on top, lightly crimp. Shoot.

For smokeless loads, a couple of good sources of data are either the Lyman 48th or 49th.
And an online source is Hodgdon/IMR http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

[Patrick56]

Fouronesix, thank you very much for your warning, but I suppose the message was to Buffalow Red? I am in search for very modest loads for the 44-40, as I have a .44mag already ( and a .458Win mag also).:-D

[fouronesix]

Yes, good plan about staying with mag revolver for mag cartridges/loads. Thought I would mention it again as there is another parallel thread currently discussing the same thing. If you have access to Trailboss it is a good "light" load powder for these as it's difficult to double charge by mistake because of it's extremely low density.

[Outpost75]

First Group of Mild loads which should be safe in any .44-40 rifle or revolver:

200-grain cast lead bullet: (Accurate 43-200Q, wheeweights, .430")
15.4 grains #2400 1178 fps in Marlin 1894S with 20" barrel
6.5 grains Bullseye 1142 fps in Marlin 1894S with 24" barrel
5.0 grains Red Dot 894 fps in Marlin 1894S with 20" barrel - Do Not Reduce
7.4 grains Red Dot 1203 fps in Marlin 1894S with 20" barrel - Max., for Colt clones and link locked levers
24.5 grains Alliant RL7 1359 fps Marlin 20", 901 fps Ruger 5-1/2" - based on old Hercules Data "should" not exceed SAAMI pressure.

THE FOLLOWING LOADS ARE FOR Winchester 92, Marlin 1894S and RUGER revolvers only:

200-grain Remington JSP .427", Starline cases, Rem. 2-1/2 primers, OAL 1.60"
8.4 grains Bullseye 1264 fps Marlin 20", 1000 fps 5-1/2" Ruger

200-grain Hornady XTP .430", Starline cases, Rem.2-1/2 primers, OAL 1.60"
8.4 grains Bullseye 1197 fps Marlin 20", 1036 fps Ruger 5-1/2"

200-grain cast lead bullet (Accurate 43-200Q Wheelweights, .430", OAL 1.60")
7.2 grains Bullseye 1284 fps Marlin 20", 967 fps Ruger 5-1/2"
7.8 grains Red Dot 1248 fps Marlin 20", 1023 fps Ruger 5-1/2"
8.3 grains Red Dot 1317 fps Marlin 20", 1023 fps Ruger 5-1/2"
8.3 grains Red Dot 1317 fps Marlin 20", 1073 fps Ruger 5-1/2"
26 grains Alliant RL7 1420 fps Marlin 20", 1050 fps Ruger 5-1/2"

230-grain cast lead bullet, (Accurate 43-230G, wheelweights, .430", OAL 1.61")
8.3 grains Red Dot 1254 fps Marlin 20", 1027 fps Ruger 5-1/2"
24.5 grains Alliant RL7 1355 fps Marlin 20", 957 fps Ruger 5-1/2"

These loads were safe in my Marlin rifle and Ruger revolver.

I do not recommend their use in other firearms.

Use this data at your own risk.

[Bent Ramrod]

I have a Uberti 1890 Police revolver in .44-40. I would advise your using only the 200 grain weight boolits made for this caliber. My cylinder is much shorter than those on the Colt clones and even a correct boolit like the 42798 will tie up my gun if it slips forward out of the crimp from recoil. Since the 1890 Police was derived from the 1875, your cylinder should be the same size, with the only changes being you have the cooler looking web under the longer barrel.

The only boolit of larger size that would be practical is something along the lines of the Ideal 429434. Here the nose portion is the same as the 42798, and the extra weight is in the gas check shank on the base. Most heavy .44 boolits are for the .44 Special and Magnum family, and they have too much of their weight (and length) in the nose portion to suit the overall length of the .44-40.

I think RCBS has a .44-40 mould like the 42798 only with a crimping groove on the nose. That would be the one to get if you use smokeless powder.

[Patrick56]

Ok, thank you Bent Ramrod! Now I am getting worthy advises. How does your revolver shoot?Have you measured the throats, cone and barrell?
I have to check my molds as I think I also have some molds made for BP revolvers. Strange that the search engine does not find the earlier threads about the old 44-40. I have time to order new molds as the Starline cases won´t arrive until late January from Germany. Pity that the US made it so difficult to order brass. Back in the -90:s I bought a lot of things from LL Baston and Brownell´s. If somebody has tried the 44-40 with Vihtavuori powders, please tell me your loads and how they worked.

[fouronesix]

Patrick,

I use some of the VV powders for full power center fire rifle but not for handgun.

I do see a load in the Hornady manual for VV n340 under a 205 gr swaged soft lead bullet.
Start- n340 - 6.5 gr - 600 fps
Max - n340 - 7.5 gr - 700 fps

VV n320 and n330 both likely have application in the 44-40. But the VV data only lists those powders in their 44 Special data with the heavier bullet. VV doesn't list the 44-40 even in their "Cowboy" section.

[Bent Ramrod]

Patrick56,

My barrel slugged at 0.4265", with chamber mouths 1,3,4 and 6 slugging at 0.4285, and 2 and 5 at 0.4280. If I recall, I fire lapped the two tight mouths out so they were all the same. It's still always been kind of cranky with cast loads compared to my Colt clone in the same caliber. With the 42798, around 6 gr of Bullseye works pretty well, although it likes the 42499 hollow point with 17 gr of IMR-4227 better. Casting those takes longer, so I usually stick to the Bullseye load with the solids. It was easier to get good accuracy with the Winchester .426" or Remington 0.427" soft points.

The reason I have the dimensions is because of the trouble I was having getting the thing to shoot tight groups. I remember doing a lot of experiments with boolit sizing, primer changes, etc. Eventually I just settled on what worked best at the beginning. The teeny rear notch on the sight and the rather skinny grip may have skewed my results early on, as well. I made more hand filling grips and filed the sight notch out a little and I have to say it doesn't embarrass me as much as it used to. With cast, it probably averages 3" at 25 yards off sandbags. This is an early one from the 80's, so the barrel and throat dimensions might well have improved since then. All my Uberti Colt clones shoot very well, and those were bought in the last 15 years or so.

I've also used the 210 gr 429215 gas check in a pinch in the Remington, although I have to crimp over the top band and the resultant cartridge looks weird. Speaking of crimps, definitely get yourself a Lee Factory Crimp die for the .44-40; that will save you beaucoups irritation.

We have Vihtavouri powders over here but I've only used the N130, N133 and N160 rifle powders, and not in the .44-40.

[rintinglen]

Lyman lists 8.1 grains of n340 as a starting load for a 200 grain boolit and 9.0 grains max. 6.0 grains of n320 is the only other data I have seen for a cowboy load. VV powders are scarce and expensive here in the western United States. Consequently, they get little use.
I have never used any myself in 44 years of reloading.

[9.3X62AL]

No use of VV powders here, sorry. I have a Winchester 1873 carbine (c. 1897) having a throat of "fat .428" dimensions; a two-year old Uberti SAA clone (4-3/4") also has fat .428" throats and .428" grooves. .429" sizing shoots well in both arms. SAECO #446 is the casting used in this caliber, usual dosing is 14.0 grains of Alliant 2400. This load shoots right to the sights at 25 yards for me, about 2.75"-3.00". The carbine manages about 2.5" at 50 yards. Neither arm is Camp Perry-capable, but neither am I--so I enjoy the guns immensely.

The single-best upgrade I've made to my 44-40 WCF loading was the addition of Starline brass to the ammo cabinet. FAR superior to the W-W or R-P brass, which will bend/fold/staple/mutilate itself if looked at intently. Once Starline brass becomes available again, I will be scrapping ALL of the major-player 44-40 brass I have and replacing it with SL.

[Patrick56]

The reason why I want to use VV is simple, very hard to find any others than domestic. I did check my inventory of molds and found one Lee swc 240- 430 (with micro grooves for lube?) that I have used in a Win 94 chambered for .44mag, and a Lee combination mold with ball and R-E-A-L bullet in 45(?)200gr with two very big lube grooves. The first one makes it possible to adjust the LOA as there is many grooves to crimp in. Have to check if it is possible to size the "real" bullet to .428 or .430 as I have the sizing dies on the shelf. Usually I use Lee Alox as bullet lube.

[Patrick56]

Ordered today a Lee factory crimp die, a Lee 200gr .429 RF double mold and some 100 Starline cases from Grauwolf, Germany.

[Bent Ramrod]

Looks like you are on your way. Let us know how it shoots. A good .44-40, properly loaded, is very accurate.

[doc1876]

Please be cautious, there is a picture of a .45 Uberti on here somewhere that blew up due to an over load. The Uberties, and Colts are not to be experimented with., If you need any real life experiences with the Colt, read some of Elmer Keith's work. He blew up a lot of them in the thirties.
I run several loads in my 44-40s, but I also have never seen this Vihtavuori powder

[Patrick56]

Hi Doc, I ordered some weeks ago a book written by Keith. Had to take a copy of the "Sixguns" as the original book costs a fortune. I have still copies of Guns & Ammo from the -80 where Ross Seyfried tested a lot of loads for different SA revolvers. Have to dig down in the attic to find the old magazines. 44-40 is new for me as I have been playing with the .38/ 357 and .44 for almost four decades.

[9.3X62AL]

Doc 1876 is correct to caution about adventurous loadings in Colt single-action revolvers or their clones. Same goes for 1873-series Winchester rifles and their replicas. I see a few repro makers are offering 357 and 44 Magnum chamberings in 1873 Winchester platforms. No way in hell I'll trust those rifles with those calibers, even in their presently SAAMI-neutered 36 KPSI format. Loads of that sort are Win 92 and Marlin 94 country to me.

[doc1876]

Hi Doc, I ordered some weeks ago a book written by Keith. Had to take a copy of the "Sixguns" as the original book costs a fortune. I have still copies of Guns & Ammo from the -80 where Ross Seyfried tested a lot of loads for different SA revolvers. Have to dig down in the attic to find the old magazines. 44-40 is new for me as I have been playing with the .38/ 357 and .44 for almost four decades.

I think Elmer was the Eric Clapton of the six gun. I accidentally bought his Sixguns recently, I say accidentally, as it was signed, and the seller I guess did not understand the difference. Once in a while even I get lucky.
This is my load for my Uberti Henry. as it has the brass frame, and the toggle links, I am not going to push it at all, my six guns are a little more stout, however no where near a max load:

200 RNFP .427 DIA
14g of IMR 4227
O.A.L. 1.592

[Larry Gibson]

The reason why I want to use VV is simple, very hard to find any others than domestic. I did check my inventory of molds and found one Lee swc 240- 430 (with micro grooves for lube?) that I have used in a Win 94 chambered for .44mag, and a Lee combination mold with ball and R-E-A-L bullet in 45(?)200gr with two very big lube grooves. The first one makes it possible to adjust the LOA as there is many grooves to crimp in. Have to check if it is possible to size the "real" bullet to .428 or .430 as I have the sizing dies on the shelf. Usually I use Lee Alox as bullet lube.

I tested VV Tin Star extensively for use in CBA shooting for a cartridge company. In the 44-40 I think you will find a good load between 6.5 - 7.5 gr N32C under the 200 - 205 gr RNFP bullets to be very useful in your SAA. I use 7.2 gr N32C under the Lee TL 240 gr bullets in my own 44-40 as it shoots to point of aim. The pressures of any of these loads is quite mild and entirely safe in your SAA.

Larry Gibson

[cajun shooter]

Patrick, I posted on another of your postings today but I had to add what I know on this one. First I have shot the 44WCF cartridge for several years starting in the 70's. I have shot this caliber in SASS shooting since 2007 in the Frontier Cartridge class because as far as I'm concerned, I feel it's the best cartridge ever designed for shooting the real Black powder that it was designed to shoot.
This cartridge was never meant to shoot 225 grain bullets, stick with the 200 gr class bullet. The Lee REAL bullet was never meant to be fired in a cartridge case, it was intended to be fired in a muzzle loader from the front of the barrel.
There also has been a lot of talk about the different sizes on the 44WCF guns, that is not the fault of the cartridge but the gun makers who build guns for it.
Marlin and Ruger are two great examples of what I'm speaking about. Marlin decided to build all of it's rifles in 44WCF with 44 mag barrels that had .430 bores. As we all know, the standard that was set for the 44WCF is .427. Marlin only had to make one size barrel for all of it's 44 guns, a decision by a bean counter most likely. Ruger has been all over the board on this caliber with some of it's guns being too small and others being too large. They had persons who had Ruger revolvers with cylinders that were .428 and bores that were.430, that does not work well.
Now for my next little bit of info. The 44WCF was brought out in the 1873 Winchester lever action to be an answer to Colt's 45 Colt in it's SAA. It was never designed to be a high pressure cartridge to get 44 magnum results from. A smokeless load of 8 grains of Unique will give about 950 FPS as will the original load of 40 grains of BP will.
The best case to purchase is the Starline as it will outlast all the others by many loadings and they are much cheaper than Winchester or Remington.
I know I can't help you by sending you any cases but I may be able to send you plenty of info on loading for this cartridge. I was a Firearms Instructor and Armorer for a very large Police department and know that since the Twin Towers, all of the rules have changed. I will look into it and see what I'm allowed to send you if you are interested. PM me with your info. Take Care David


PS Do a search on this forum and the SASS forum for postings on this cartridge. My SASS handle is Fairshake even though I go by Cajun Shooter on this forum.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I bought the RCBS 210 gr mould because it has a defined crimping groove. The nose is flat too as should all .44-40 boolits be. I cast ww and sized to .427" Alox lube and load 6.0 gr of Alliant American Select. Out of my 3rd generation Colt SAA with 4 3/4" bbl chronographed 844, 835, 840, 736 and 689 fps with CCI 300's and Starline brass. This was all I needed so I stopped any further research. I really don't shoot the .44-40 much, Colt's gave me the second cylinder in .44-40 for my .44 Special. It hits a little low but is very pleasant to shoot.

Original .44-40 boolits didn't have much of a groove but the boolits didn't recess down into the cases because the compressed black powder provided sufficient resistance against the spring tension in the tubular magazines even under recoil.

The thing about the .44-40 is the brass is thin and prone to crushing if your ham handed. I have to load the .44-40 on a single stage to protect my brass whereas the .44 Special runs through my progressive no problem. And there is that extra step of having to lube the cases because your running bottle neck cases through steel dies. I'm sure everyone has quit reading this my now because my comments are so elementary.

[9.3X62AL]

Since I started messing around with the 44-40 WCF cartridge about 15 years ago, it has impressed me as a pretty darn capable cartridge in both long arms and side iron. Specific to the revolver, it launches a 200 grain-class bullet at 900-950 FPS. This seems to be the velocity window chosen by all the Facklerite jello-blasters as the Ideal Velocity to prompt Controlled Expansion of properly designed jacketed hollow point bullets. Compare these ballistics to that of the original 44 Special--a 240 grain RN loping along at 700 FPS. One look at the current Bestest And Mostest anti-goblin chambering extant--the 40 S&W--and we see its 180 grain JHP running 925-950 FPS in the real world. This is an exact duplicate of the 38-40 WCF's revolver performance, same weight/velocity/diameter. The late Frank Barnes was absolutely correct when he asserted in his first "Cartridges of the World" that "There really is nothing new under the sun. The 44-40 in a revolver runs a bullet 11% heavier and 4% wider at the same clip produced by the vaunted 40 S&W........what's not to like? It has shown itself to be a decisive stopper of bad guys historically, which the passage of time won't modify--and no slouch as a game fields caliber in a lot of woods or broken country environments. The little '73 Winchester in my gun safe has grassed more game animals than the rest of my rifles all combined, owing to its tenure as a ranch rifle for 30+ years extending into the Great Depression. It more than did its part on muleys and a few black bears over those years.

[Patrick56]

Ok, thank you Larry, I have to search for a can of N32C. I have on the shelf n310,320 and 340 but I have never tried the 32C. N340 works well in my Winchester 65 25-20 and I use it also in my .38spec. Loaded also some 30-30 with it, not to mention my Win 94 in 44magn.

[Savvy Jack]

Hi, I am adding a Uberti Remington 1875 to my arsenal of odd calibers. I tried to search for threads about the 44-40 but could not find any? Would like to hear if somebody has used Vihtavuori powders in that caliber. Ordered Starline cases from Germany and reloading and sizing dies from Titan. I am going to use Lee .429 bullets in the 240gr range. Have to check the real diameter of the bore and throats when I get the gun.

UMC Manufactured a lead hollow point for Remington's 1875 and 1890 SA Revolvers and called them "44 Remingtons"
http://www.oldammo.com/january06.htm

[Texas by God]

This is timely as I have a 44 WCF project in the works. Published "scary" loads can be found in the back of the 1970s Lyman manual. 200 gr jsp around 2000 fps scary..........! No thanks; I tried some in my Rossi lever long ago and the magazine crept forward on recoil. My new rifle will be fed around 1100 fps with a 200ish boolit.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[oscarflytyer]

Pat - MY Uberti throats are ~.430. I size bullets to that size. Recommend you size to the throats. Using Starline brass/Lee dies. Started with WW+2%tin cast/~12bhn. Plan to move to 20:1 alloy/10 bhn. using a Lee 44-200 mold that drops 215 for me (WW alloy). Traditional 44 WCF load data

44 WCF 205-215 grn Bullet 840-950 fps
Powder grns fps
HP 38/W231 7.1 (7.3 is traditional) 850-875 7.1 accurate in mine. exoect 7.3 same
Unique 8.0-9.0 840-950 8-8.5 accurate in mine. 8.0 is very pleasant
Power Pistol 8.0-8.5 (Taffin 8.8) 865
Bullseye 6.0-6.5 850
2400 13.0-14.0 850-900

[Lloyd Smale]

I had a smith DA and a ruger Blackhawk. both shot real well with a 200 rf lee and 9.5 grains of herco. Unique and power pistol worked well to at that level but both guns did there best with herco.

[9.3X62AL]

Lloyd--

What do ya know, ANOTHER place where Herco does good work. I have used Herco for years in 1-1/4 oz 12 gauge and 28 gauge shotshells, and it does well in mid-level magnum revolver rounds (900-1100 FPS/plain-base castings). I have used it in place of now-obsolete SR-4756 in the 32/20 WCF revolvers. I need to try these loads (9.5 grains) under SAECO #446 in my 44/40s.

[Reverend Al]

I've loaded for an original '73 Winchester, four '92 Winchesters, plus a Remington pump all in .44-40 and all have responded very well to the RCBS bullet cast medium hard (about 200 grains), sized big at .430" (to fill up and seal those big old original rifle bores), and loaded with 7.5 to 9.0 grains of Unique depending on the personal preferences of each rifle. I've used the same loads in a pair of Uberti SAA 5 1/2" revolvers in .44-40 too. These were all used for CAS so high performance / high velocity loads were never needed or wanted.

[Lloyd Smale]

Yup it always made me shake my head. Ive about allways got better accuracy with unique in the 41s and 44s but the 4440 and the 45 colt have allways seemed to like herco better.
Lloyd--

What do ya know, ANOTHER place where Herco does good work. I have used Herco for years in 1-1/4 oz 12 gauge and 28 gauge shotshells, and it does well in mid-level magnum revolver rounds (900-1100 FPS/plain-base castings). I have used it in place of now-obsolete SR-4756 in the 32/20 WCF revolvers. I need to try these loads (9.5 grains) under SAECO #446 in my 44/40s.

[Savvy Jack]

This is timely as I have a 44 WCF project in the works. Published "scary" loads can be found in the back of the 1970s Lyman manual. 200 gr jsp around 2000 fps scary..........! No thanks; I tried some in my Rossi lever long ago and the magazine crept forward on recoil. My new rifle will be fed around 1100 fps with a 200ish boolit.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Tex, Buffalo Bore is now manufacturing 44-40 ammunition that replicates original black powder velocities of 1,300+ fps and remain under the SAAMI max chamber pressures of 13,000cup/11,000psi

I load my own ammo but I did purchase a box and I am very pleased with the ammunition they offer. I got extremely good groups at 100 yards.

Here is the link to the thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355133-Buffalo-Bore-s-quot-Heavy-quot-44-40

And here is the link to the 44 website write-up: https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/buffalo-bore

[Savvy Jack]

Yup it always made me shake my head. Ive about allways got better accuracy with unique in the 41s and 44s but the 4440 and the 45 colt have allways seemed to like herco better.

lloyd, take a look at this powder. I dont think it's Herco but...
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/team-44-40/515641-buffalo-bore-s-heavy-44-40-a.html#post7024713

[pbcaster45]

Sorry, can't help with the hard to find VV powders. My favorite powder for full power loads was SR-4756, but it's out of production. Alliant Herco works great too!

Bullet: Suter’s Choice 200 gr. RNFP (.428)
Powder: Alliant Herco 8.6 grs.
Primer: Federal 150
Case: Starline 44-40
Average Velocity: 990.45 fps
Gun: 7 1/2 inch USFA Single Action

[BUFFALOW RED]

I been using 200 gr big lube boolits sized .429 with 6.3 gr of 231 ball powder works well in Uberti 1866 clone.

I also shoot Rugers in 44-40 I was looking for a max load for them only as Rugers can shoot 44mags with cylinder change but I don't need another caliber to load.

[Savvy Jack]

Sorry, can't help with the hard to find VV powders. My favorite powder for full power loads was SR-4756, but it's out of production. Alliant Herco works great too!

Bullet: Suter’s Choice 200 gr. RNFP (.428)
Powder: Alliant Herco 8.6 grs.
Primer: Federal 150
Case: Starline 44-40
Average Velocity: 990.45 fps
Gun: 7 1/2 inch USFA Single Action

Looking closer SR-4756 could be close. It is slower burning so 10.5gr could put the 44-40 close to 12,000 psi.....but if it is hard to find, may not be it.




I been using 200 gr big lube boolits sized .429 with 6.3 gr of 231 ball powder works well in Uberti 1866 clone.

I also shoot Rugers in 44-40 I was looking for a max load for them only as Rugers can shoot 44mags with cylinder change but I don't need another caliber to load.


I would like to try a few powders for my 44 Mag frame Uberti "Buckhorn" with 44-40 cylinder but for now, 10.5gr of Unique works well to include a heavier charge of 4227 and 2400.

Thanks for those reports fellas!