Need help with Christmas pawn shop find

[Desertbuck]

So my wife and I decided to hit the pawn shops to see about getting a Christmas gift for each other. Anyway we spotted this she asks do you like it? I said she's a little neglected but I can give it a good home.
Took her apart cleaner up the barrel which was definitely neglected in a bad way for a while. Found out from writing on the stock underneath the barrel she was part of Civil War reenactments that took place in 1988.
My question to you guys are how do you take the lock apart ? It's a little gritty and needs cleaning I tried but don't want to break anything! Where can I find parts for it? I need some screws! It possibly also needs a new hammer spring.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/24/dd23a64c367a80ad66dd98ac865346cf.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/24/8769c0b69599edc3673cb32ce2600e01.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/24/90b19737ae6f3380a61269ef1912ef10.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/24/117320da265994662599163f8fa22551.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/24/6b830b737795d18e95751d389c9f4758.jpgBefore
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/24/43660d7123e78f537af415ad72f0899c.jpg
After
Also what exact model is this rifle a copy of?

[fouronesix]

Good job on the bore!

Looks like an A. Zoli "Zouave" repro to me. "Zouave" was the nickname given to the late Civil War M1863 Remington special contract 58 cal 2 band rifle musket that had brass mountings and a patchbox.

Pull hammer to half cock and loosen the two lock screws. Leave them engaged in the lock a couple of turns. Tap on each screw lightly, alternating between screws until the lock is free of the wood inlet. Rushing to do this may chip out an edge of the inletting. If you want to take the lock apart use a main spring vise as described in another recent thread in the "Muzzleloader" section about using a spring vise.

Otherwise, just spray the lock with carburetor cleaner or soak and brush the lock in solvent. Blow out excess. Oil lightly with normal gun oil.

For parts you can call or browse around sites like Dixie or Lodgewood Mfg. While close they may or may not be entirely interchangeable with other repros or with original parts.

[mooman76]

You could also try Track of the Wolf or cainsoutdoors for parts.

[hc18flyer]

GREAT find on the rifle! Sounds like wife too! Have FUN, Flyer

[zuke]

What did you use to clean the bore?
Very nice find!

[carbine]

You will need a spring cramp (clamp) if you want to remove or replace the main spring. To use bring gun to full cock, apply clamp until it makes contact, no need to torque it. S&S firearms has CW gun parts

[Desertbuck]

What did you use to clean the bore?
Very nice find!

Kroil and 10 strokes with a 20 gauge brush.

[Desertbuck]

You will need a spring cramp (clamp) if you want to remove or replace the main spring. To use bring gun to full cock, apply clamp until it makes contact, no need to torque it. S&S firearms has CW gun parts

Do I need to to release the mainspring tension in order to unscrew the hammer?

By the way guys Merry Christmas thank you for all the help.
Yes my wife is definitely a keeper she support my hobby in every way!

[bob208]

you can use a 6" adj. wrench as a spring clamp. just put the hammer on full cock tighten the wrench till it contacts the spring.

that barrel cleaned up nice zoli barrels are known as shooters. I believe the term zouave got tacked on the model in the late 50's when they were first being brought in. the proper term is 1863 Remington.

[fouronesix]

Do I need to to release the mainspring tension in order to unscrew the hammer?

By the way guys Merry Christmas thank you for all the help.
Yes my wife is definitely a keeper she support my hobby in every way!

The "circular" tumbler is connected via a link to the mainspring. These locks are very simple machines so no fear in taking one apart…. correctly. Several sources for hairpin mainspring vises and they aren't that expensive. Well worth getting one- you won't regret it. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1038/1/TOOL-VISE

The tumbler has a shaft that goes through the lock plate. The hammer is attached to that shaft and held by a screw. It's much easier to remove all the lock parts, except of course for the tumbler, before trying to remove the hammer as the hammer may be a tight swage fit to the shaft.

[pietro]

I believe the term zouave got tacked on the model in the late 50's when they were first being brought in. the proper term is 1863 Remington.




FWIW, due to their dress/"uniforms", the term "Zouave" was the title given to certain light infantry regiments in the French Army, normally serving in French North Africa between 1831 and 1962, and adopted during the 19th century by units in other armies - such as volunteer regiments raised for service in the American Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War), and Brazilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilians) free black volunteers in the Paraguayan War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War).

IIRC, the American Civil War Zouave's, aka the various New York volunteer infantry units, were armed with similar .58cal frontstuffer.



.

[fouronesix]

"It's a little gritty and needs cleaning I tried but don't want to break anything!"

The large musket locks are large and pretty robust so little chance of breaking anything.

By gritty, do you mean dirty or rough feeling when the hammer is pulled to full cock?
A very simple thing to polish, that commonly causes a rough feeling when pulling to full cock, is the toe end of the sear spring scraping into it's contact surface on the top of the sear. That small spring sometimes has a very sharp edge that digs into the sear during cocking. You can carefully polish both the sear contact surface and round&polish that sharp edge of the sear spring with a fine stone to smooth that function. A crock stick works well for the slightly concave surface of the sear in that area.

The other issue with design of these type locks is that they are simple trigger so the tumbler doesn't have a fly. If you pull the trigger very slowly, as when target shooting off the bench, the sear nose will barely slip out of the full cock notch in the tumbler and may hit the leading edge of the half cock or "safety" notch- damaging both parts. If you pull through, what's likely a fairly heavy trigger let off, with authority it will pull the sear nose up far enough to clear the half cock notch. It may or may not be an issue with yours, just something to be aware of when shooting for accuracy by slowly squeezing the trigger.

[Hanshi]

You made a good find. I owned one back about 45 years ago and really enjoyed it. Eventually traded it but later replaced it with a US M1841 "Mississippi" rifle in .54.

[KCSO]

To take the lock apart you need a spring cramp. This is what the little end wrench that came with the muskes really is. Cock the m=hammer sli on the cramp and let the hammer down and you can take out the spring with no problem. Let me know what screws you need as I have a drawer full for the various Itye muzzleloaders.

[Hellgate]

I think the American CW Zouaves were mounted infantry and were better served by a shorter rifle than foot bound infantry hence the 2 band rifle vs the usual 3 band infantry rifle. My Zouave has taken two deer. The big old minie will go lengthwise through the deer. An early article on BP hunting in Africa showed Turner Kirkland using some pretty stout loads in them. Zolis are the best of the bunch quality wise.

[bob208]

first the 1863 Remington was never issued to any zouave troops. it was issued to infantry troops. the zouaves were not mounted. there were zouzve units on both sides.
the proper terms for a two band gun was rifle. a three band gun was a rifled musket.

[Reg]

I honestly would recommend that you do not take the lock apart. Take it out of the stock, give it a good cleaning with any of the recommended spray type cleaners , work it a couple of times and put it back in the wood.
Locks, once removed from the wood are so open and exposed that a good spray solvent type cleaner will do all the cleaning that any rifle ever needs. Yes, you can take them completely apart but that should only be done when something serious in the name of repair needs to be done.
Nothing is ever to be gained by totally striping them down and the chance of something getting broken , I. E. , the mainspring, etc. rises.

[doc1876]

The "circular" tumbler is connected via a link to the mainspring. These locks are very simple machines so no fear in taking one apart…. correctly. Several sources for hairpin mainspring vises and they aren't that expensive. Well worth getting one- you won't regret it. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1038/1/TOOL-VISE

The tumbler has a shaft that goes through the lock plate. The hammer is attached to that shaft and held by a screw. It's much easier to remove all the lock parts, except of course for the tumbler, before trying to remove the hammer as the hammer may be a tight swage fit to the shaft.

as previously stated, put it on half cock. This will hold even when it is free from the gun. after taking the screws out , I like to gently bump the heads into the stock/lock to release the lock from the stock. This is hard on hte threads for replacement, so please be very gentle here if you do this.
I will tell you the truth about the mainspring clamp, you don't have to have one, but if you don't, I would not recommend the other very painful way to get it apart. (and you may never get it back together) The sear spring is usually the ones that break, so inspect it for cracks, and for rust weekening it.

[Desertbuck]

I would like to replace the hammer screw because I ended up burgin it up. :( It does not wanna move! My own dang fault. I did get the lock to come out of the stock just fine with the hints you guys gave me turned out it just needs a little bit of lubrication it was bone dry.
One more question do you guys think I should go with round ball or a mini ball?

[waksupi]

I honestly would recommend that you do not take the lock apart. Take it out of the stock, give it a good cleaning with any of the recommended spray type cleaners , work it a couple of times and put it back in the wood.
Locks, once removed from the wood are so open and exposed that a good spray solvent type cleaner will do all the cleaning that any rifle ever needs. Yes, you can take them completely apart but that should only be done when something serious in the name of repair needs to be done.
Nothing is ever to be gained by totally striping them down and the chance of something getting broken , I. E. , the mainspring, etc. rises.

Good advise. If it ain't broke, don't take it apart.

[fouronesix]

A patched roundball usually shoots very well out of slow twist rifled muskets. Historically, the Minié is the proper thing to shoot but requires doing it right for best results and accuracy. Once the Minié is mastered, they are quicker and allow longer shot strings without cleaning- it's the reason that system was standardized during the Civil War.

About the buggered hammer screw. Pretty much a non-issue and cosmetic. Apply a little heat to the screw head, apply Kroil. Let it cool down or leave outside to get really cold. Tap on a properly fitting screw driver while turning to loosen. Very easy screw to replace. Might be metric.

If there is concern about taking one of those locks apart? Then there should be real concern about reloading a 60k PSI modern rifle cartridge and pulling the trigger with the chamber perched a few inches in front on your face. :shock:

[Desertbuck]

About the buggered hammer screw. Pretty much a non-issue and cosmetic. Apply a little heat to the screw head, apply Kroil. Let it cool down or leave outside to get really cold. Tap on a properly fitting screw driver while turning to loosen. Very easy screw to replace. Might be metric.


Holy smokes it wasn't as easy as you were saying lol I spent the last 3 1/2 hours heating it spraying it with Kroil then putting it in the freezer, tapping it hard and it still took an extreme amount of force to loosen. I've never met such a stubborn small screw on anything. I literally bruised my skin because of turning the screwdriver so hard. It finally came off though!!! And nuthing got bent. I also took the lock workings apart. I used a small crescent wrench as a mainspring vise and it worked good. Good thing I did there was lots of rust surface rust anyway in all the joints of moving parts. I think little bit of water got into the lock workings from the previous owners cleaning procedures my thinking is he or she never took it apart the entire time he or she owned it.

[gkainz]

nice job on the picture down the bore ... how many tries did that take? :)

[zuke]

Anyone know of a source of Kroil in Canada?

[skeettx]

http://navyarms.com/manuals.html

[Desertbuck]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/07/73da4a696cfe404d59aaa199fd312c29.jpg

Well here it is all cleaned up new hammer screw fresh coat of boiled linseed oil barrels all cleaned up and polished and posing with some of the lazy man paper cartridges I made.

[Hellgate]

One thing I do to reduce wear on my Zouave is to make a small flash guard to put over the nipple that extends behind it a bit to prevent gas cutting of the stock right behind the nipple. If you have been firing heavy loads there will be more flame coming back out the nipple which is focused back down onto the nipple and exposed wood. I have made oval shaped flash guards out of thin aluminum sheeting but leather, rubber, brass, etc. would also work. You need to cut out (I used a narrow wood chisel) a square shaped hole for the guard to slip down over the nipple to be flush with the bolster(? where the nipple screws in). There probably is not a lot of cutting if the rifle has only fired blank charges with low pressure. With the flash guard the gun will continue to look barely used. TOW has flash guards but I don't think there is one for the Zouave.

[fouronesix]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/07/73da4a696cfe404d59aaa199fd312c29.jpg

Well here it is all cleaned up new hammer screw fresh coat of boiled linseed oil barrels all cleaned up and polished and posing with some of the lazy man paper cartridges I made.

Looks really good! Hope it shoots well.

Having taken apart a bunch of 150 year old originals, I know how stubborn some screws can be. If it was buggered from the get go- no worries about putting some "force" to it. The worst case would have been breaking the head off. Even then not too hard to redrill and retap. Interesting the stubborn part was the screw. Sometimes a press is used to swage the hammer onto the tumbler shaft. Removing hammers so installed and rusted in place can be real buggers because there is real potential for doing bad damage to a major part.

[bigted]

just seen this and gotta ask bout your "lazy mans paper cartridges". I see the shotgun hulls but I cant see how you went about the procedure ... do explain as im bout as lazy as they come and im interested in the arctic engineering of others discovery's.

[bob208]

rather then a flash guard. get a nipple that the nssa uses it is like a hot shot nipple it stops the flash back of the hot gasses.

[fouronesix]

just seen this and gotta ask bout your "lazy mans paper cartridges". I see the shotgun hulls but I cant see how you went about the procedure ... do explain as im bout as lazy as they come and im interested in the arctic engineering of others discovery's.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?268399-Lazy-man-s-musket-paper-cartridges

[59sharps]

lodgewood or S & S Firearms