Resizing Time

[ColColt]

I've just went thought my 18th reload of 40 45-70 W-W cases and it seems it's time for a FL sizing. I had been neck sizing only from early on but now more than half of those cases will not freely drop in the chamber anymore, lacking about 3/16".

I wish someone would come up with a device, a sizer of some sort, whereby you could only resize the offending part of the case, the 1/4" above the extractor groove, so you wouldn't have to go through the entire process of fire forming again wasting lead, powder and primers.

[Chill Wills]

You can make one with very basic tools and use your press to push the case in and then push it out.
1/2" drill bit, small piece of steel maybe 1.25' wide, 1/2 thick and 2" or more inches long. And a short knock out rod. Easy, and you can do it. Smooth the rough places and your in business.

Can you picture in your mind what I just described?

[ColColt]

Can you picture in your mind what I just described?

I'm trying. How does the press fit in?

[Don McDowell]

I think Midway carries Wilson resizing dies that do just what you're talking about.

[ColColt]

After looking through seven pages I only see their seater dies and neck size bushings. I wonder if one of those would work in the proper size...if they make them that large.

[Gunlaker]

I've never had that particular problem, but I've heard of others solving it by cutting down an existing sizing die.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

That would work I'ld think. Just set a regular resizing die to size the case head, mark it a bit above the loc ring, and make a trip to the chop saw..

[Gunlaker]

The only thing I was wondering ( I'm no machinist ), is whether the die would be too hard and need annealing before cutting and then re-hardening.

Chris.

[fouronesix]

Start with a full length sizing die. It is a bunch cheaper than having a custom die made!

Grind about 1/8" off the bottom of the die and chop saw the die about mid-body. Doing both slowly will not overheat the die. The only finish work to it is chamfering the entry at the die bottom and the top cut. Works very well as a semi- small base body die.

[Hiwall55]

I will second what fouronesix said ,that's how I solved the problem.

[country gent]

With the taper on the case it would be easy to relieve the die 1/2" or so above the end by .010-.015 to the end allowing for only the base to be sized, the first 1/2" above the rim. On carbide pistol dies it only the carbide ring that does the sizing ( why you can get away without lube. A used scratched die could be bored out and a new ring at the proper length dia fit pressed into place. Would one of the neck bushing dies with out the bushing accomplish this maybe? I have a mecham bbusing die for 45 -70 that also works for 45-90 and 40--65 with the right settings or bushings. Not sure if with out the bushing it would touch the case though. Another quick thought is loaded that many times have you annealed? It may be time

[ColColt]

I'd rather buy one(if available) than go through all that. It seems the neck size bushings don't go large enough for my purposes. I've never heard of a "chop saw".

[fouronesix]

A chop saw is a saw that uses a large flat fibered abrasive blade to efficiently cut all manner of metal. Cutting off a section of a die could be accomplished with a small rotary tool with an abrasive cutting disc- if done with care.

I'm afraid you may not find a small base die for the 45-70 that will work like you want without having to order a custom die from one of the makers. Do whatever you like but the price tag of a used or new single FL 45-70 die will be $10-20 and using it to make a short body die like you are wanting is quite easy. Or give someone like RCBS or Huntington Die (whichever is doing the custom dies now?) or you name the maker a call, get a quote, be prepared to wait a long time and spend a pile of money.

[ColColt]

CH4D could no doubt do it but as you said, probably a long wait and mega bucks.

[Chill Wills]

The press provides the power. Beats hammering. A lot of ideas offered but for a problem that does not happen often, why expend so much time and $ when something easy will work fine.
It's Christmas. Send me a PM with your shipping address and a will make and send you what you need.

[Maven]

ColColt, Have you considered the .45-70 Lee Loader? It consistently neck sizes ~1/3 of the case and works rather well, if not slowly. Btw, the LL includes a decapper, which is very handy when you want to want to either reload at the range or get a head start on soaking the BP soiled cases in a vinegar & soapy water.

[ColColt]

Never thought about it. I neck size using a Lyman die. I always carry a large mouth bottle of hot soapy water to the range and decap while there and chunk the cases in that bottle till I get home and baptize them in the Thumler's Tumbler for about four hours.

[Lead pot]

Have you checked your brass so you know for sure where the case is getting tight, base, neck or is it just the length?
You can check this pretty fast by using Dykem 80300 Steel Blue layout fluid or just a felt tip marker after you size the case and insert the case in the chamber.
If the base is the problem then you can send Wilson a couple cases and tell them what your problem is and they will make you a base swage die or you can grind off the easy edge your sizing dies has down to the start of the threads but then the shell holder might cover to much of the base to swage it down anyway if the base is a problem.
It's best if a full length sizing die don't solve your problem you better find out where the problem is first before starting the shot gun treatment with your brass.

[ColColt]

It's not the length. Most all run 2.095. It starts getting tight the final 3/16" or so at the base. FL dies fix the problem but as I mentioned early on, you have to start all over again when you FL size.

[montana_charlie]

For resizing a 45/70 case in the area just in front of the rim ...

This drill jig bushing is 1/2" thick, and has a 1/2" ID.
OD is one inch, and it costs around ten bucks.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-drill-bushings/=v5zf20

With no die screwed into the press, hold this bushing against the bottom of the press top and use the ram to shove the case all the way up into the bushing.
Then, turn the bushing over and use a 3/8" rod raised by the press ram to push the case up out of the bushing.

Examine the bushing to find the rounded side for inserting the case, and remember to use case lube ...

CM

[ColColt]

That's simple enough but pushing the case into the bushing will size about an inch of the case from the base upward as the fired cases mic at .499-.501" in the middle down. Cases are .503" at the very base. At least it's not sizing the full length of the case.

[Chill Wills]

For resizing a 45/70 case in the area just in front of the rim ...
This drill jig bushing is 1/2" thick, and has a 1/2" ID.
OD is one inch, and it costs around ten bucks.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-drill-bushings/=v5zf20
With no die screwed into the press, hold this bushing against the bottom of the press top and use the ram to shove the case all the way up into the bushing.
Then, turn the bushing over and use a 3/8" rod raised by the press ram to push the case up out of the bushing.
Examine the bushing to find the rounded side for inserting the case, and remember to use case lube ...
CM

BINGO Charlie! You nailed it.
And for anyone with a hand drill or better (drill press or lathe), a 1/2" HSS drill, maybe a file, some emery cloth and a bit of 3/8th dowel or coldroll will solve the problem. No bushing needed. It is not like you will need to resize the case base each loading cycle. Colt said something like 18 loads have cycled and now they need a little touch up - easy! .....or costly and more elegant - everyone has they preferred way.
Some people do not have even this level of tool making and that is OK too. I will be sending Colt what he needs.

[fouronesix]

Here's a "small base short body" die made from an extra FL sizer I had, Lee IIRC. About 1/8" ground off the bottom and cut off about mid-body. You could cut it even shorter if desired to reduce the re-sizing of the upper case body.

[Chill Wills]

Colt, it is the base up one inch that is the problem - Right? If you could size the base to 0.501" you would be back in business - Correct?

[Chill Wills]

Here's a "small base short body" die made from an extra FL sizer I had, Lee IIRC. About 1/8" ground off the bottom and cut off about mid-body. You could cut it even shorter if desired to reduce the re-sizing of the upper case body.

Yup. Those are good. But the area between the case rim and above the shell holder still does not get resized.
If - and only if the fat part of the case that is preventing the case from easily entering the chamber is the area just in front of the rim, you still have the problem. What I do resizes all the case to the rim - no shell holder involved to get in the way.

[fouronesix]

I thought the OP was wanting to resize the area just above the rim and maintain the fire formed condition of remainder of the case?

[Chill Wills]

I thought the OP was wanting to resize the area just above the rim and maintain the fire formed condition of remainder of the case?

I think so too. Maybe I miss understand something?????

[Gunlaker]

ColColt, there is one other thing that might be worth checking.

I have a highwall that was built with an improperly cut extractor combined with a fat chamber. Fireformed cases would hang up on the extractor sometimes. This was because the part of the case nearest the rim doesn't change dimension, but just ahead of that will upon shooting. Let's say in my case the base diameter was 0.505", but the chamber was a few thousandths larger. The extractor was cut just enough that only a 0.506" case would fit past it, but after shooting, the case expanded to 0.507" in from of the web. Thus cases that won't extract nicely, or chamber properly.

I'd forgotten about this as it happened some time ago on a rifle that I was breaking in with low pressure smokeless loads and cast bullets. The smokeless loads expanded the cases so that they would not extract without knocking them out with a cleaning rod. Black powder loads might only show this after repeated loadings.

It was easy to diagnose by pulling out the extractor and chambering the brass. The fix was quite easy then. I just wrapped some fine emery cloth around a cartridge case and gently took a couple of thousandths off of the extractor.

Chris.

[montana_charlie]

That's simple enough but pushing the case into the bushing will size about an inch of the case from the base upward as the fired cases mic at .499-.501" in the middle down. Cases are .503" at the very base. At least it's not sizing the full length of the case.
If you search McMaster-Carr for 'drill jig bushing' you can drill down to the page where you specify dimensions.
You will find that bushings are available with inside diameters of .5", .501", .5156", and .53125"

The bushing we use in the Kal-Max case stretcher is .500", but you can pick your poison from the offerings listed.


On another tack ...
Have you ever made a chamber cast for that rifle?
Your dimensions don't seem to indicate anything that should keep a cse from chambering, but you need a good image of the hole it's supposed to drop into.

And, finally ...
How sure are you that there is nothing in the chamber?
No crusty powder, or accumulated lead in the front end that could be stopping the case ...

CM

[SgtDog0311]

I'd rather buy one(if available) than go through all that. It seems the neck size bushings don't go large enough for my purposes. I've never heard of a "chop saw". Might try Wilson then. Maybe they'd take a fired case and work from that. I don't know if they do that but worth asking.

[EDG]

It seems you need a steel .480 Ruger sizer and you will have to cut the top off of it if it is a closed top die.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/rcbs-sizer-steel-480-ruger-475-linebaugh-35232.html

[rfd]

is all this something that can be addressed with something like a lee case bulge buster?

[EDG]

Midway has a .480 Ruger trim die on clearance or sale.

[Lumpy grits]

Cheaper/easier to trim the shell holder down.
Have you ck'd the OAL of your cases? They may need some trim'n.
LG

[ColColt]

Lumpy-I think a check of the OAL of cases is most academic and if you'll check some of the earlier responses you'll find this has already been addressed and doesn't bare repeating.

[Lumpy grits]

Lumpy-I think a check of the OAL of cases is most academic and if you'll check some of the earlier responses you'll find this has already been addressed and doesn't bare repeating.

Then you need to do a chamber cast.
As somedangthing is out of spec.
Have you used duplex loads in this gun?
LG

[ColColt]

The chambers in a Browning1885 BPCR for the 45-70 is right at 2.125...at least in this one. So, even if a case should grow by .010" it's not going to prevent it from being chambered. What's causing these cases to give a bit of resistance is their repeated firing(18-20 times) and now need resizing.

Nope, I never use smokeless powder in a traditional black powder rifle.

[Lead pot]

Cheaper/easier to trim the shell holder down.
Have you ck'd the OAL of your cases? They may need some trim'n.
LG
No lumpy I been down this rout. To much of a chance pulling the top of the shell holder off.
Making a case head swage die is as easy as Michael said how to make one. You can use your loading press like a arbor press by putting a knockout from a electrical box over the shell holder and push it in the die up to the rim and knock it back out. I have dies made that will take a .503 diameter head down to .498 in two steps. My dies are small enough in diameter that I take the 7/8x14 bushing out of the press and the die has a lock ring that bridges the hole in the press and I can use a punch to drive the case out using the press ram.
The easiest solution if you don't have simple tools is cut down the die base and top if you need to and grind an easy edge on your cuts and sand the inside edge so you don't scratch the case.
The problem with the OP made to start with, with very little information given where the problem really is in the case leads to a lot of guessing for solutions.

[Lumpy grits]

I have reduced many a shell holder height to help with sizing and never an issue.
OP-Just do a 'lite' FL resize after each firing.
Lyman FL sizing dies are handy-just set to resize the case .002-004" smaller after firing.
Bet your groups get smaller too.
LG

[John Boy]

I've just went through my 18th reload of 40 45-70 W-W cases
With that many reloads on the cases, I'd FL size and anneal the brass. They have to have a severe case of work hardening

[John Allen]

Start with a full length sizing die. It is a bunch cheaper than having a custom die made!

Grind about 1/8" off the bottom of the die and chop saw the die about mid-body. Doing both slowly will not overheat the die. The only finish work to it is chamfering the entry at the die bottom and the top cut. Works very well as a semi- small base body die.


i am going to try this myself. It is a good idea.

[ColColt]

As I stated in the first post, the problem is the cases won't go all the way in the chamber. There is no accumulation of carbon in the chamber or leade. You can take a new case and it drops right in as does a FL sized case. The problem is the base needs to be reduced either by FL sizing, which I wanted to avoid having to fire form them all over again, or some sort of bushing/die to reduce just the base itself for about half an inch.

I annealed those cases every 3-4 firings so, that's not the problem. Some of the cases would almost go all the way in but needed a little persuasion with the thumb. Others wouldn't go at all, lacking the 3/16" I mentioned earlier.


I thought the OP was wanting to resize the area just above the rim and maintain the fire formed condition of remainder of the case?

That is correct.

[EDG]

No work hardening if they have not been worked.
He has not been sizing the cases so I doubt there is any significant work hardening.


With that many reloads on the cases, I'd FL size and anneal the brass. They have to have a severe case of work hardening

[montana_charlie]

As I stated in the first post, the problem is the cases won't go all the way in the chamber. There is no accumulation of carbon in the chamber or leade.
I read your opening post carefully, and provided a means of doing what you think is needed ... with some follow-up information added in a subsequent post.

You're sure your cases are too fat to chamber (and you may be right), but you resist all advice to make a chamber cast ... so you can know definitively what dimension the case needs to fit within.

You believe the 'fatness' is right at the case head, but it could be deeper in the chamber where a dimension mismatch stops the case ... with 3/16" still poking out.

Again, a chamber cast would allow you to find that point of conflict, if one exists. or prove that it doesn't exist.

Finally, here is something else to check ...
Choose one of the problem cases and mark it's headstamp with a felt tip pen, so that you can know the orientation when repeatedly chambered.
Turn it a quarter turn each time you try to chamber it.

Does the amount sticking out of the chamber change noticeably as the orientation changes?

[ColColt]

Does the amount sticking out of the chamber change noticeably as the orientation changes?

No change. The dimension of the chamber is approx. 2.120" in that trimmed down 45-90 Starline cases will drop right in at 2.115" trim. I think after repeated firings the case head for about 1/2" has just gotten somewhat larger.

[Lumpy grits]

Use a candle and 'smoke' the entire case.
Then, chamber it and see where the rub marks are on the case.
LG

[Lead pot]

<img title="Confused" class="inlineimg" alt="" src="http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif" border="0" smilieid="20">&nbsp;I personally don't know what your problem is that you cant seat your case in the chamber.<br>The only thing that can happen that will make your cases get larger then your chamber and that is stretching, or dirty brass or chamber damaged brass during loading, fired in a different rifle or belling the brass and seating a bullet in the case larger then the chamber will except or a bullet with an oversized bore riding section.<br><br>I only full length size my brass once and that is when I get new brass and it never gets run through a full length sizing die again. <br>The only cases that will get full length sized more then once is the brass I make for the .44 cut down from .45 basic formed &nbsp;using a full length sizing die or the case form die I made using the two&nbsp;reamer set my chamber was cut with and the reamer that cut the sizing die.<br>I have brass that has been loaded countless times, many more times then the 40 times you said yours have been and they chamber just fine and the most they get worked is using a taper crimp die so the PP bullet will not fall out when I load it in the rifle. <br>You have something going on that I mentioned above. I case just don't get larger in the chamber then the chamber is unless you damaged the chamber, like a chamber ring starting making the case neck increasing in diameter or your over flairing the case mouth seating the bullet.<br><br>If you would be making a bottle neck case from a straight wall basic brass and then shooting this case to finish blowing out the shoulders you are fire forming the case to match your chamber. Full length sizing a straight wall case that was shot in the rifle you are not fire forming anything.<br>

[Lead pot]

I don't know what happened with that post??? maybe the computer is dyeing or this thread died :) :)

[Gunlaker]

Kurt I've had this forum do weird things. A while back it removed most of the spaces from my posts :-).

I've also never had the case chambering problem in the way described ( I've got some cases with 250+ firings on them ). But I did have that problem with the highwall with a fat chamber and poorly cut extractor. The case would swell above the web and then the bulge would hang up on the extractor. It still has the fat chamber, but I fixed the extractor. A fellow who has run one of the local gun shops since the 50's guessed the nature of the problem for me.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Chris.

I can understand that. As well as a Auto loader. My Gold Cup will swell the heads.
But I don't understand the problem CC is having from what he has mentioned and replied to in his posts.