Alternating the use of BP and smokeless in same brass

[chg]

Does anyone use the same brass for smokeless and BP? I've always separated the brass for BP exclusively. I no longer shoot BPCR and want to use in in my lever guns with smokeless.

[Don McDowell]

Won't hurt anything, but the pressure of the smokeless loads require full length sizing every time you reload the case.

[John Allen]

I mix and match. I just always wash the blackpowder brass with a soap and water once I am home from the range. I actually take a sealed container of water and soap to the range and drop the brass in when I shoot. I then shake it up a few times. Once I get home I just get it a good wash and reuse for whatever.

[dtknowles]

Won't hurt anything, but the pressure of the smokeless loads require full length sizing every time you reload the case.

The OP did not mention cartridge or firearm but I don't see a requirement for full length sizing, it depends on the load, action type and if the ammo will be used in more than one gun. I have smokeless loads that do not require any sizing and others that I neck size only. It just depends.......

Tim

[Don McDowell]

The OP did not mention cartridge or firearm but I don't see a requirement for full length sizing, it depends on the load, action type and if the ammo will be used in more than one gun. I have smokeless loads that do not require any sizing and others that I neck size only. It just depends.......

Tim

He did say levergun, I have yet to see a levergun that did not have a chamber on the large end of things, so that full length resizing wasn't necessary when loading with smokeless. Blackpowder doesn't require the bullet pull/case neck tension for consistant ignition that blackpowder does. If you ever get the experience under your belt running blackpowder and smokeless thru the same gun, it won't take you long to figure out the cases fired with smokeless expand more than the ones with blackpowder....

[chg]

Thanks. I used to care for it as John Allen stated in his post. Figured the pressures will be higher with smokeless and just wanted to make sure all was well. I had full length resized a couple hundred a few weeks back then had second thoughts.

[dtknowles]

He did say levergun, I have yet to see a levergun that did not have a chamber on the large end of things, so that full length resizing wasn't necessary when loading with smokeless. Blackpowder doesn't require the bullet pull/case neck tension for consistant ignition that blackpowder does. If you ever get the experience under your belt running blackpowder and smokeless thru the same gun, it won't take you long to figure out the cases fired with smokeless expand more than the ones with blackpowder....

I never ran black powder in my M94 30-30 but I did load cast bullets with pistol powder charges that I only neck sized. It was all good. I have used both black powder and smokeless in my 50-70 rolling block and I never full length size, again it was all good. No problem with full length sizing, I do it for a lot of ammo I load I just think that it is a little extreme to consider it necessary. As far as pressure, smokeless powder charges do not have to be higher pressure than blackpowder, again it just depends........

Tim

[Don McDowell]

As far as pressure, smokeless powder charges do not have to be higher pressure than blackpowder, again it just depends........


Just a few minutes reading in the Lyman Blackpowder handbook, and any of the recent Lyman Reloading Handbooks, may cause some reconsideration on that statement...

[upnorthwis]

No matter what I'm shooting in the brass, I clean the necks with a brass brush in a drill press. Then tumble.

[dtknowles]

Just a few minutes reading in the Lyman Blackpowder handbook, and any of the recent Lyman Reloading Handbooks, may cause some reconsideration on that statement...

I stand by my statement and I will include that I understand that the pressure rise rate is a variable that needs to be considered. More and more we are seeing data that are pressure vs. time plots so we can understand the way that different smokeless powders perform. If you want to use low pressure smokeless powder loads in antique black powder cartridge firearms understand that powder selection is very important and in my opinion Trail Boss is not a good choice. Do you believe than a smokeless powder load has to produce higher pressures than blackpowder?

Tim

[rfd]

as long as the smokeless loads were at trap door levels, and the brass didn't require annealing, i don't see a problem or concern ... ?

besides, i don't resize because all my .45-70s are single shots. per rifle, that specific brass is fireformed and ready to load with smokeless or the holy black.

[Don McDowell]

in my opinion Trail Boss is not a good choice

Well at least you got that part right.
Have a Merry Christmas

[dtknowles]

Well at least you got that part right.
Have a Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas

[cajun shooter]

I'm sure that they have certain smokeless loads like the 38 spl. loaded with 2.7 grains of Bullseye that are very low pressure when looking at smokeless powders for pressure. I will how ever have to agree with Don as I'm a shooter since the early sixties and have had the chance to shoot both in many calibers. BP does not have any high pressure loads as you can't put enough in the case to achieve that goal. Maybe if you loaded a 45-120 with the fines from the screenings you could reach such a goal but that is one thing I would not care to try. Merry Christmas to all. Cajun Shooter

[dtknowles]

I'm sure that they have certain smokeless loads like the 38 spl. loaded with 2.7 grains of Bullseye that are very low pressure when looking at smokeless powders for pressure. I will how ever have to agree with Don as I'm a shooter since the early sixties and have had the chance to shoot both in many calibers. BP does not have any high pressure loads as you can't put enough in the case to achieve that goal. Maybe if you loaded a 45-120 with the fines from the screenings you could reach such a goal but that is one thing I would not care to try. Merry Christmas to all. Cajun Shooter

I asked "Do you believe than (sic) a smokeless powder load has to produce higher pressures than blackpowder?" I did not mean to indicate that black powder makes really high pressures, just that you can safely load some smokeless powders to low pressures so they are safe for antique firearms. The highest pressure I have seen reported for a black powder load is about 30,000 psi, I guess you could get higher pressures if you do something wrong or deliberately make a bomb. I have seen smokeless powder loads intended for use in antique firearms with pressures as low as 8,000 psi

I have 8 antique firearms that I might use smokeless powder in, three are shown in my avatar picture. I have fired those three with smokeless powder, I believe safely, I expect the pressures were running in the 11,000 psi range. If I ever can find an antique pump or lever in 44-40 that I can't resist, I will probably shoot smokeless in it. I can't talk myself into using smokeless in my 450 BPE double rifle even though the black powder loads are probably producing close to 25,000 psi but that is because loading smokeless in the huge case is more advanced than I am ready to try in such an expensive piece (not much published smokeless load data).

Tim

Cajun Shooter, you ever shoot at Honey Island?

[Chill Wills]

I agree about making use of time/pressure traces. Real data is helpful for seeing what is going on. There are smokeless powders that work on all sides of the range that Black powder(in all grades) operates in.
I have an old IMR data flyer that shows the full line of IMR powders from the era, pressure tested in the 45-70 and other cases. It is very interesting. A full load of IMR 4381 in the 45-70 is all but a squib.

[montana_charlie]

I have an old IMR data flyer that shows the full line of IMR powders from the era, pressure tested in the 45-70 and other cases. It is very interesting.
A full load of IMR 4381 in the 45-70 is all but a squib.
How old is that flyer ... or ... how long ago was 4381 discontinued?

CM

[Don McDowell]

Cajun shooter. David it's good to see you posting, hope that means you are on the road to recovery and will be back at the shooting again soon.

[Chill Wills]

How old is that flyer ... or ... how long ago was 4381 discontinued?

CM

The flyer is '70's or maybe 1980
Not sure when IMR 4831 went away. really stopped following ..... I guess I did not know it was. I have most of two 8lb cans and can't remember when I last used any. (not trying to be a smart a)

[montana_charlie]

The flyer is '70's or maybe 1980
Not sure when IMR 4831 went away.
You said 4381, earlier.
Did you intend to say 4831?

4831 is still available (I believe) but I had never heard of 4381.
Ergo my questions ...

[Chill Wills]

Sorry Charlie I transposed the number.
IMR 4831 in the powder.. Fast fat fingers are to blame. alliteration :shock:

I don't know of a 4381 powder - the flyer shows 405 gr bullet, 56gr compressed IMR-4831, velocity=1390fps, 17,800 pressure.
Might be a fine load if that's what someone needs.

[Don McDowell]

:veryconfu Dangedest place a fella would ever think to find bp pressure data, but in the Lyman 47, in the 45-70 Ruger #1 and #3 only data... 70 grs 2f, under the 457124 bullet 1329fps at 14,400 cup.

[cajun shooter]

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year Don, To you and all of your family.
Don, I have been home bound for the past 2 1/2 years. As you know, I had to quit BP shooting and casting and sold all of my SASS guns and casting equipment that included quite a few custom molds. I've been like a fish out of water, as I would look in on the forum from time to time but never posting.

On Nov.10th, my pain doctor implanted a new pain pump as the other one had reached it's active life and the battery was failing. I had no pain after the surgery and was so elated that I could not believe that I was able to feel that way ever again. After about 5 days, the old pain started to slowly come back but to a much lower level than before. I found myself able to walk to my shop where I did my casting at one time.
I was able to turn on my Wagge pot which I kept to maybe cast some 45-70 bullets. I also had my Accurate Molds with the bullet I had Tom make for me to shoot my 44WCF guns in SASS matches. I put them on my one burner electric mold heater and ended up casting about 150 bullets before having to
stop. I was so happy that I walked faster than I have in years to tell my wife. She started to tear up as she was happy to see me back doing what I love and have done for almost 50 years.

I posted some, "I need guns postings" on the SASS wire and located a very early Interarms 92 in 44WCF. I was able to get two Uberti Smokewagons in the same caliber and this last one will make you believe in fate.nn
A fellow shooter called me and said he had seen the good news and wanted to help me out with my quest to burn some good ole BP. He stated that he knew that I had sold my TNN SXS hammer gun to another local shooter and he had purchased it from him. He told me that he sold the gun to a shooter in Mississippi and that shooter sold it to another guy but he did not remember his name. I then felt like I had heard a story for nothing and asked him why he had told me that the gun had been sold three times and was now lost. He said , Wait just a minute. He was at a shoot in North Texas and by chance was put on the same posse with the guy who had purchased the gun. My friend Brad told him the story about my shotgun and that he would like to buy the gun back for me. The guy said that he didn't want to sell but would think about it. He decided to sell and shipped the gun to my friend and now I have my original SXS hammer gun back to start shooting again.
Sorry about the long tale but I thought it was one of those that show you about fate and how it works at times in our lives.
My hunt for all the small extra's is caught up and now all I need to find is a gun cart that I can manage in and out of my truck.
We also shoot at two ranges in this area with both ranges being about 20 miles away. The problem with the one range is that it's almost 100 yards from the stages with the same on parking. I'm thinking that I need to find a golf cart or something that will help me in getting from point a to z.
Take Care and we will talk soon. Your Friend David

A

[Don McDowell]

David ride into the wind and keep your eye on the skyline..

[bigted]

David ... tho we have never met ... I consider you a friend [even tho it be in this strange siber stuff] and as we had a correspondence a bit ago , I have wondered how your battle is going from time to time. thanks for the update and god bless your progress my friend.

[scarry scarney]

[QUOTE=dtknowles;3059894]in my opinion Trail Boss is not a good choice{/QUOTE]

I have very little experience in using Trail Boss (reduced loads for S&W 500). I would like to know more..
Thanks

[Don McDowell]

[QUOTE=dtknowles;3059894]in my opinion Trail Boss is not a good choice{/QUOTE]

I have very little experience in using Trail Boss (reduced loads for S&W 500). I would like to know more..
Thanks

Go to Hogdons web data and read it. Pay particular attention to the extremely low velocity the stuff gives, then look at the pressure data.. Dang near down right scary, in and of itself, but the worst part is the folks that look at low velocity and automatically think low pressure.... Then we wonder why there's so many blown up gun pictures on the net....

[dtknowles]

[QUOTE=dtknowles;3059894]in my opinion Trail Boss is not a good choice{/QUOTE]

I have very little experience in using Trail Boss (reduced loads for S&W 500). I would like to know more..
Thanks

Don, nailed it. High pressure relative to velocity. Ok for modern guns but not the way to go for guns from the BlackPowder era. It would be fine in the S&W 500 to prevent double charges on light loads.

Tim

[johnson1942]

my 45/70 brass is very very old, about 20 years at least. the federal nickle plated brass isnt nickle plated any more. ive drilled all the flash hole out to a larger size as was popular back then. recently i cleaned them very very good, called the makers of reloader 7 and asked are they safe for reloader 7. they said yes as it is a low pressure powder. i use a lighter load of 35 grains behind a paperpatched bullet. these old cases shoot great. as stated above i full length resize each time to reload. one of the reasons is my two 45/70s are not the same in the chamber. one is tighter so when i resize the loaded cases fit both guns. i dont crimp and the paperpatch is just set in the case against a 60 thousands fiber wad. ive never had to trim the length of these cases and they are checked often. of the various kinds of cases i have ive always be partial to federal. a case has to be clean in side as if their is grit the case sticks to the bullet and seperates. what a mess, learned that the hard way over 30 years ago. ive cleaned good since then. recently i loaded a few hundred of these old case as described above and let my 13 year old grand son shoot and shoot and shoot. he shot the 45/70 more than any other gun when he visited. it hit every thing he shot at. i saved gallon milk jugs for a year waiting for his visit. a good tip on cleaning cases is mix you wifes laundry spot remover with water and soak the cases over night in that. their are also a lot of other cleaners out their but the laundry spot remover and water is very good and doesnt eat up the case.