Model 92 in 32 - figured from around 1907 or so

[MrWolf]

I had posted this on Marlin Owners and just joined Cascity after reading a 22 page posting on this rifle. I will just repost what I had stated there. A lot of good information (thanks w30wcf whomever you are) has gotten me excited about developing an accurate load for her. Figured you guys would know best route for me to take. Was looking at maybe making my own brass as I understand it is brittle and I know it is harder to find then hen's teeth. I thought I was getting a 32-20 initially but. Anyway here is the post:

This summer I had won an auction for what looked like a nicely preserved Model 92 in 32-20. 26" octagon barrel, serial #3832XX. Long story short I ended up with a 32 caliber (appears to be centerfire) that has the barrel tapped for scope blocks. The rifle was also refinished (not a great job). Seller stated he thought it was just a good finish but conceded later it was refinished. Let's just say I am out north of $700 - yea I got beat. Gunbroker's fraud protection is garbage as I have been fighting with them since. They do not disclose that you must return the firearm to them and they will resell and give you proceeds less fees. Not helpful when what you got is worth half what you paid. Ok enough whining.

Action is good and tight, rifiling is still good with no pitting. I slugged the bore (.3086). Best this will be is an overpriced shooter. Trying to find 32 long brass is like trying to find hen's teeth. Assuming I eventually find some, what mould would you recommend? I will cast using probably pure and powder coat for lube. Any help would be appreciated, just don't laugh to hard at my stupidity. Seller only taking a bank check was a huge red flag and I messed up.

Update: After all my reading I saw and Ideal No 1 32 L on ebay and got it. If I can't use it or not practical, it is still a piece of history. Just looking for some advise. After reading post on making from 32S&W it appears biggest issue is inside diameter of the new brass. Would it make sensse to have Accurate just reduce the size of the heel to fit?

Ron125060125061125062

[starmac]

I'm sorta lost. What markings is on the rifle?
It might pay you to do a chamber cast to see exactly what you have.

[square butte]

What is the caliber marking on the barrel?

[MrWolf]

There are no caliber markings. I did look at pics of the firing pin and they do match the centerfire. The bore slug I took seems to match what the 32 cal should be. This is why I am asking for help. I know knothing about this caliber but it does look like fun.

[pietro]

FWIW, about 8 years ago, I bought a similar .32-20 Model 92 from ca.1907 with a round bbl & button magazine at a LGS, who had it tagged @ $700 because it was "refinished" (original condition .32-20 M-92's in the same condition were worth $1400 all day, with .38-40's & .44-40's worth even more).

The case colors were wonderful.....................

I had N.P. selling it to a dealer @ a funshow later that year for over $2500.00

Because (as I suspected when I bought it) - it was refinished by Doug Turnbull (as confirmed by him checking his records).


IMHO, @ $700 you didn't "get beat" - you got it for about what a typically well-refinished .32-20 Model 92 should sell for.



.

[MrWolf]

That is the issue. The rifle is not a 32-20 but a 32 rimfire/centerfire. The refinishing is ok to good, the barrel was tapped for scope blocks. Looks like it may be ok as a shooter.

[Vopie]

Mrwolf, do you have both firing pins? Most only have one, the other being lost to time. Colt longs used a .299 dia inside lubed hollow base boolit. Colt shorts came with a .310 dia outside lubed heel boolit. jim

[MrWolf]

I only have what looks to be the centerfire pin. From what I have read, the Model 92 in both 22 and 32 cals did not have caliber barrel markings back then.

Vopie, thanks I did not know that about the hollow base. The outside lube is what got me thinking a powder coat might work in this setup since I will not be shooting "old school". I still have a lot to learn with this caliber. I do know I have to keep the loads light as it is basically a 22 on steroids.

Appreciate the info folks, please kerp it coming.

Ron

[enfield]

theres a 1892 marlin on the "gun room" sight ( Canadian ) that's in 32 colt & 32 rimfire with tang sight for $995 neat to have, but 32-20 would be a whole lot easier to load for.

[MrWolf]

theres a 1892 marlin on the "gun room" sight ( Canadian ) that's in 32 colt & 32 rimfire with tang sight for $995 neat to have, but 32-20 would be a whole lot easier to load for.


That is why I wanted the 32-20. Now that I have her, kinda interesting and excited about getting her to shoot well. Just order casting compound from RotoMetals to determine throat. Hard part is gonna be finding brass :violin:

[Muskrat Mike]

I'm confused! Is it 32-20 or not??? If 32-20 brass is not that hard to find.

[MrWolf]

Hehe. No the rifle is actually a 32 rimfire/centerfire that was refinished, etc. Actually not a bad rifle but was not what I was expecting. The auction I had won was supposed to have been the 32-20 which is way easier to reload for, but the seller made a slight misrepresentation! So now I have a bit more of a challenge in store in getting her to shoot cast accurately.

[skeettx]

OK, here is what I would do
Get some of this
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/941420747/starline-reloading-brass-32-h-and-r-magnum

They see if the head will fit in the bolt
Then see if it will chamber, if not shorten it, then try again, then continue the process.
Find the correct length and then load :)

[MrWolf]

So far I have heard of reworking the 32S&W and 320 Euro. Think I am going to need to start looking at specs but process is a lot harder without a lathe.

[runfiverun]

you are gonna be going with skeet's plan pretty much anyway,, unless fiocchi makes ammo for this one.
I'd also p.m. 30wcf-30 here and talk to him about it some more.
if anyone knows these old guns it is him.
if I had a dollar for every rim diameter and rim thickness I have had to file down by hand to make something work, I could just buy odd ball brass for one of my project guns I wanted to shoot.

[Vopie]

Ron watch the gun shows for brass and old ammo, I believe w-w still loads 32 colt short but they may be hard to find with the way ammo has been the last couple years. Sorry to say but I sold all the brass and mould that I had. I had a '91 2nd variation, fun gun, but watch it, carp do charge if not hit in the head with one of these.....jim

[MrWolf]

Here are some pics if the Ideal No 1 32l. Hope it works but if not neat little tool.

125280125281

[MrWolf]

Turns out the Ideal No 1 32l is not for the 32 long colt but for the 32 Ideal. Fits the single shot Stevens44 and 44 1/2. Now I am going to have to get another rifle so I can use the mold!

[w30wcf]

In addition, it would make a nice plain based bullet for the .32 W.S., :) something that is a bit rare today!

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

So far I have heard of reworking the 32S&W and 320 Euro. Think I am going to need to start looking at specs but process is a lot harder without a lathe.

Another option is .25-20 SS basic brass which has pretty much the same o.d. as .32LC brass.
http://www.captechintl.com/proddetail.php?prod=2520B20pcs&cat=7

w30wcf

[MrWolf]

Another member and myself just reached a swaping deal which will give me 60+ pcs of 32 long colt. Win-Win for both sides like it should be. This will get me started [smilie=w:

[TXGunNut]

In addition, it would make a nice plain based bullet for the .32 W.S., :) something that is a bit rare today!

w30wcf


Agreed, finally gave up and had Tom from Accurate make me one.

[TXGunNut]

Another member and myself just reached a swaping deal which will give me 60+ pcs of 32 long colt. Win-Win for both sides like it should be. This will get me started [smilie=w:



Congrats, any progress on a mould?

[MrWolf]

Not yet. I am going to make a chamber cast this week to see what see looks like. I will probably get one of the Accurate moulds; looks like he offers three for the 32 long IIRC.

[w30wcf]

Glad to see that you found some brass. :) The Accurate 31-090A was developed for use with the .91" long case. I don't resize my brass so I wanted a press fit into my as fired cases so I had specified the .305" heel diameter when designing that bullet.

That would likely be too large for sized brass in which a .301/.302" heel would likely be better.

Chev William had purchased the Accurate 31-090A mold but with a smaller heel diameter (I don't remember the size). Since he doesn't cast, he had the mold sent to Matt's Bullets who has made the bullets for him.

I think that Matt now does commercially offer the 31-090A bullet made from Chev William's mold (with his permission) even though it is not listed on his website.
http://mattsbullets.com/

w30wcf

[Cag40Navy]

That a .321 mould?

[MrWolf]

I did bite the bullet so to speak and bought an Ideal No 1. This time in 32 long. The mould looks to have the heeled bottom but I won't know till I get it. Yes it would have been cheaper to just get a mould, but I kinda like the history too.

[Cag40Navy]

Here are some pics if the Ideal No 1 32l. Hope it works but if not neat little tool.

125280125281

What is the size of this mould? .321?

[MrWolf]

What is the size of this mould? .321?

I don't know what it will drop as it is for the 32 Ideal. Finding out what these old tools would drop at really requires that thay be cast then measured. When the weather gets warm again I can cast some. I will also cast the 32 long at the same time. I know the tools are not really made for extended casting as the handles are basically heat sinks, but I figure on making something for them to make em caster friendly.

[MrWolf]

I will post pics of the Ideal No 1 in 32L when I receive it.

[w30wcf]

Nice find on the Ideal No. 1 in .32 LC. :-D I have a couple of the early Ideal tools with the attached mold and find that if I wear a decent thickness glove that I can cast as long as I would like to........

w30wcf

[MrWolf]

Hopefully I got it right this time :groner:. I will post pics as soon as I get it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There is no way the Marlin 92 could have been made in .32-20 (that is somebody else's 92), or the brass could be made from .32-20. The head diameters are quite different.

If I didn't already have mine, I would be delighted to find a well refinished rifle for half of £750. It sounds as if MrWolf is pretty well set to start shooting now. As far as optimum accuracy is concerned, those unmarked Marlin 92s in .32 caliber can use what might more fairly be called two different centrefire cartridges.

The original .32 Long Rimfire, by using a spare firing pin which came in a brown paper envelope most rifles have lost, also fired the .32 Long Colt with a heel bullet which was probably around .314in. diameter. (I expect Marlin sold this cartridge under their own name rather than Colt's, as was common practice then, but it was the same thing, and I doubt if different rifle and revolver loads ever existed. I think but do not know, that early Marlin 92s had a groove diameter close to that of both bullets

Then both cartridges changed. The .32LC was changed to an inside lubricated bullet of .299in. diameter. This had a hollow base to expand it into the now oversized rifling. But I am sure it would have performed badly in any Marlin 92. I suspect that it would have performed fairly badly in the inexpensive pocket revolvers which were most of the weapons chambered for the .32LC. But those users were less likely to notice the difference.

For rifle use, possibly as a result, the .32 Long Rifle round was introduced somewhere around 1905. This had a smaller diameter non-heeled inside lubricated bullet, and the case was lengthened to cover the lube grooves, making a round of unchanged overall length, as tube magazine lever actions usually require. My 92, which the serial number records in Brophy's book suggest was made around 1906, has a groove diameter of .307 and land diameter of .302, which conforms perfectly to a table Marlin published in 1909.

I don't know whether the bore diameters were larger before the Long Rifle existed, or reverted to being larger when the .32 ammunition ceased manufacture before the rimfires. The Marlin 1906 catalogue shows the rimfire and centrefire .32 Long Rifle rounds in the same illustration as the .32 Short rimfire and the centrefire ".32 Colt's Short". So I don't think there ever was an inside primed "Short Rifle". The rifle, unlike Winchesters, could accept different cartridge lengths internchangeably, without a replacement carrier, and clearly Marlin didn't consider the diameter question dangerous. But I think the user of shorts was left with mediocre accuracy.

It is an extremely good rifle, and functionally has changed very little to the modern 39A. It was really the first time Marlin had gained a lasting ascendency over Winchester, for they had got their hopes up with the 1881 .45-70, only to find Winchester turning out the much stronger 1886 five years later. We probably owe the removable sideplate to the fact that the .22LR, a Stevens development, didn't crimp onto the bullet until about 1900, and an occasional detached bullet in the action was pretty well inevitable.

A post-1903 92 has another advantage today. It has a flat top, drilled for the Hepburn receiver sight which probably spawned those on the 1903A3 Springfield and M1 Carbine. The holes can be used for a rear scope mount. You could put the front one on a barrel band, epoxied and driven into place with a lining of annealed Coke can aluminium so as not to score the barrel surface.

[w30wcf]

Ballistics In Scotland,
Thank you for the write up.

One observation if I may:

The .32 Long Rifle first appeared in the 1895 U.M.C. catalog That moniker disappeared by the mid 1920's and thereafter was known as the .32 L.C. I.L. (Inside Lubed) until about the 1940's when it was simply called the .32 LC up until it was discontinued by the mid 1970's. All were factory loaded with a .299" diameter hollow base bullet.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/32longrifle.jpg

I have tested some of the 1970's vintage in my '92 Marlin which has a .309" groove barrel and they shot better than I thought they would, producing 1 1/2" - 3" 5 shot groups at 50 yards.

w30wcf

[MrWolf]

I just received my package from Reg and was pleasantly surprised to find about 30 loaded cartridges! He also gave me a pulled hollow point for reference and an original ammo box they came in! My Ideal tool in 32 L arrived today also and it looks like the right one and the mould is in good shape. Now I just need some warm weather to start playing!

[MrWolf]

Lookey at what I found when I pulled some of the loaded cartridges I got from Reg. Seems someone did not want a heeled or hollow base projectile. The two swaged ones are 99.75 grains each - pretty consistent. The hollow base is 81.64 grains. One cartridge had 3 grains and the other had 3.8, a decent spread between them of a flat, light colored disk powder which is currently residing in a potted plant as fertilizer. Not sure if you can see with the standing cartridge, but the copper jacket is slightly above the case mouth and the brass is splitting. There is also a ring around the brass where the copper jacket ended. I have also included pictures of my Ideal No 1 32 L tool and mould. I think this is the right one but will know more once I can cast and find out. Pretty interesting so far! I also included a cool looking original box Reg sent also. you have to look at these standing on your head - no idea why it does that.

Ron

126656126657 126655

[w30wcf]

Since I have a bit of trouble standing on my head......
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/32lcmrwolf.jpg

Nice! Based on its appearance, the box is from the 1940-1950's and the cases are likely the SHBP type (Solid Head Button Pocket) aka Balloon Head. I have a box from the same era and have reloaded the SHBP cases several times with no issues. Bullets were all I.L. (inside lubed) and hollow base :smile:

The bullet with the partial jacketed appears to be a Speer 100 gr. Plinker which is .308" diameter.....unless someone resized it.

Nice find on that vintage tool. Hope it all works out.

Did you see my response on your other thread on the .320 die vs. a 32 LC die?

w30wcf

[MrWolf]

w30wcf, I did and good info. Based on what you stated, I think I am going with the 32 long colt dies. I think I am going to enjoy trying different things!

[Wayne Smith]

Check out Old West Molds. Bernie has all of the original Old West catalog, including all the heeled bullet molds.

[MrWolf]

I did receive the package from a guy on Armslist for the 32 long colt. I was supposed to have received about 200 pcs of brass and ammo. Super excited when I opened the package until I saw everything was 32 S&W L and 32 S&W NP. He did have 10 pcs of 32 colt long. Spoke to the guy and educated him on the differences (learned a lot from here, Cascity, and other sites). He was good about it and was taking everything back and reimbursing me the $12 shipping charge. He texted me the next morning, thanking me for explaining the differences and said he was just gonna refund my money and I coukd keep what he sent. Looks like I have some 32 S&W L to play with when I try converting them to the 32 colt longs! I do appreciate all the knowledge that everyone has so nicely provided.

I also watched a youtube video on using the Ideal tool. I can do basically everything with that which will get me started, from making the bullet to a complete cartridge. C'mon warm weather!

[MrWolf]

Ordered the 32 long colt dies and shell holder from CH4D on Monday and they were delivered today! Had a long conversation with Dave about the 32 long colt. Lots of knowledge there and he is a great guy.