Creedmoor Bullets Won't Fit

[ColColt]

I just bought some 540 gr Creedmoor bullets from Sagebrush Outfitters and they looked good. Unfortunately, they're not going to work in my Browning BPCR. I charged the cases and compressed the powder .230" to come up to the bottom of the front drive band and found they won't chamber. In fact, they lack about 1/4" closing. I took a dummy case, inserted a sized bullet and chambered it and it was pushed back to over the top of the drive band. I decided to reseat, knowing I'd probably ruin the bullet as they're all 1:20 alloy and seated it to just over the top of the drive band. Still wont chamber by nearly 3/16". It's engraving the bullet way up on the nose.

The nose measures .450" just like my other two moulds but you'd have to seat it so deep as to either compress over .250" or reduce the charge. Looks like I have some nice but useless bullets. This is what the bullets look like.

http://www.sageoutfitters.com/catalog/item/8932692/7451992.htm

With the bullet in the case up to just over the bottom of the drive band you can see the engraving of the lands. I even full length sized the cases but that did no good.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Misc%20Stuff/_1DF3180a_zps60d0a1aa.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Misc%20Stuff/_1DF3180a_zps60d0a1aa.jpg.html)

[Dan Cash]

How are you compressing your powder charge? If it is with the bullet, you have swelled the bullet in the process. For a .450 bullet nose, it looks like you have very deep engraving from the rifling.

[martinibelgian]

My thoughts too - the bullet was used to at least partially compress the powder. Try an unused bulled, inserting it nose-first at the muzzle end and tell us how it fits.

[oldred]

I had (have) the exact same problem with my 45-90 using what is apparently that same bullet, I say "apparently" because what I had looks to be the exact same bullet and was 540 grains but was purchased from a small gunshop in Ky. I doubt that I had distorted the bullet while seating but just like you it would not chamber the last 1/4" or so. I know what I have said is of no help solving the problem but the timing of this thread really caught my attention since just in the last couple of days I spoke again of this very problem although it happened to me about a year and a half ago.

FWIW, When I encountered the non-chambering rounds I was told by two different people at the time, both supposed to be knowledgeable BPCR shooters, that in my case it was because I had chambered the rifle using a Winchester type chamber. The reason given was that the 45-90 WCF vs the Sharps 45 2.4 (my reamer is marked 45-90 WCF) was designed for the Winchester 45-90 using a 300 grain bullet that results in a chamber made for a cartridge with a shorter COL. I just took their word for it until a couple of days ago when prints of these reamers were posted for comparison but now I am not so sure, however could it still be the chamber design and do we share the same problem?

[Don McDowell]

Take a bullet from the box and insert it into the muzzle, if it will drop in to the driving band then you know for sure it is to big. If it will drop in , then there might be something in your seating operation that is bulging the bullet.
I have a mould that drops bullets to big at the base of the nose to fit into the bore of the rifle I'ld like to use it in.. At least you're just out the cost of some bullets you can melt down and reuse and not a set of mould blocks.

[Gunlaker]

Is the nose engraved on all sides evenly? If not then you might have a runout problem. With low neck tension it'd self straighten, but with higher neck tension not necessarily.

Oldred, the .45-70 Browning BPCR chamber is a real simple design. It has zero freebore and tapers at, if I remember correctly, 12.5 degrees.

If the bullet is bad, at least you didn't buy the mould. My Browning likes the Brooks Creedmoor bullet, but mine has a slighly smaller nose, I think 0.449". I have two of his Creedmoor moulds, one has a .450" nose like your bullets. I've only played with it a bit, in one of my C. Sharps rifles, and it looks like the only difference between the big and small nose is that th big one leads the bore.

If you like I can make a diagram of the bullet that the BPCR rifle likes. It has two reduced driving bands, so sits out a bit, and uses a little more powder.

Chris.

[ColColt]

I have a BACO compression die I use but usally leave the last .030" and compress with the bullet. I've done this with all other moulds and no problem. I did check the diameter of the nose and it was still .450". The engraving is rather deeply but not even all the way around. My expander for a .459" bullet is .457" so there's low tension.

Using one of the bullets it will only go as far as when the nose changes to .450". It doesn't even come close to getting down to the drive band. I don't know of the chamber design but all bullets from the Lyman 457125, Brooks Postell and his 540 gr Creedmoor bullet work fine. I liked the looks of the "Paul Jones" Creedmoor bullet Sagebrush offered and thought I'd try some just for the heck of it. So far, they're not working out. I had no choice in specifying the size of the nose or would have went with .448".

[ColColt]

I just double checked the dimensions of the nose on the 457125 and it's .4485" whereas the Brooks Postell is .4487. The Sagebrush Creedmoor mics at .4505".

This is a pic of the Brooks Creedmoor(left) and Sagebrush Creedmoor.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Misc%20Stuff/_1DF3183b_zpsecda3be4.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Misc%20Stuff/_1DF3183b_zpsecda3be4.jpg.html)

[Chill Wills]

I have a BACO compression die I use but usally leave the last .030" and compress with the bullet. As you might know, that is a problem, we've all done it, at least be accident. That last 0.030" on already compressed powder can really take a big push to get it moved. I've done this with all other moulds and no problem. I did check the diameter of the nose and it was still .450". The engraving is rather deeply but not even all the way around. My expander for a .459" bullet is .457" so there's low tension. This is a lot for the soft tin-lead bullet because of the spring back after the expander is removed from the sized case. It is uncommon to use this much for target work. Great groups can be shot with using the same size expander as the bullet. The case will spring back to give the bullet a nice hug and ammo will be tight in the case - close to a slip fit but still snug. - no bullets falling out but the chronograph and the target can have pleasing data.

Using one of the bullets it will only go as far as when the nose changes to .450". It doesn't even come close to getting down to the drive band. I don't know of the chamber design but all bullets from the Lyman 457125, Brooks Postell and his 540 gr Creedmoor bullet work fine. I liked the looks of the "Paul Jones" Creedmoor bullet Sagebrush offered and thought I'd try some just for the heck of it. So far, they're not working out. I had no choice in specifying the size of the nose or would have went with .448".

That bullet on the right looks more like a Postell.

[ColColt]

They call it a PJ Creedmoor.

[Chill Wills]

They call it a PJ Creedmoor.

Yup, but it is a dead ringer for the new Lyman Postell. Creedmoor as Paul Jones made, look somewhat more like the one on the left. Creedmoor bullets as shot in 1874 are a but different yet and those that have access to some of the old bullets can post pictures of them but, of the pictured bullets above, I was "just saying".
Good luck.

[ColColt]

I didn't take a side by side shot but this is a Steve Brooks Postell.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF41511_zpsee5ba9fd.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF41511_zpsee5ba9fd.jpg.html)

[EDG]

I also have some of the Sage Brush Creedmore bullets. Mine measure .448 on the nose ahead of the first band.

[ColColt]

These mic .451" right above the drive band but .450" further up.

[Freightman]

Take this the way you want but I had the same problem so I took some 1500 deg. hi-temp stove paint, cleaned the nose section with acetone and with a small brush painted the nose section of the mold. put it in my little toaster oven at 300 deg. and cured it, worked great, problem solved.

[Chill Wills]

Freightman, I think he purchased the bullets but .....great idea to cure an over sized mould! I have not used the brush on paint - just the spray stove paint to make the old wood burner look 'OK' again for my wife.
Hi-temp stove paint Hmmm, good idea!
Sorry to hijack this!

Colt - that Brooks design pictured above is the old style Postal from 100 years ago and is a good bullet - just work up a load and enjoy!:-D:drinks:

[ColColt]

Yep, store bought bullets. I'm glad I didn't buy the mould. I do get some great groups with the Postell but, I wanted to try the Creedmoor they offered.I'll stick with the moulds I already have.

[Lumpy grits]

Stop ANY compressing of the powder, with the bullet.
Measure the bullet nose in front of the top band. Use a micrometer....
LG

[ColColt]

I've already mentioned I did that. .451" in front of the drive band and .450" on up.(post #14)

[Lumpy grits]

Before loading into a case, OR after????
LG

[ColColt]

Both. I wanted to see if it had swollen and it hadn't. I think the bullets are just too big...at least for this rifle.

[Lumpy grits]

Anything over .449 on the nose is fat for a .45 cal bore, especially when you factor in fouling.
My PJ C'moor runs .4485.
Call Harlan, and let him know--
LG

[ColColt]

Here's the odd thing about that. Brook's Postell bullet mics the same on the nose at .450" yet there is no problem with it at all. In fact, it's my most accurate bullet besides his Creedmoor. I don't know what the deal is with the Sagebrush Creedmoor bullet. All I know is it won't work in this rifle.

[Jon K]

Paul built moulds to fit the rifle(size specific).
Harlan has several or the 45001 design. Might be they vary a little.

Mine drops .4587 at the nose and .4592 in front of the 1st band, 1:30 mix.

I'm sure Brooks will make the mould in sizes you specify. PJ is not taking new orders.

Jon

[ColColt]

These bullets mic at .450" on average, at the nose. That's the problem with the style bullet apparently. I wrote them a week back but have not heard anything. It appears I may as well turn those bullets into alloy.

I have Brooks' mould and it's perfect.

[Dan4570]

I normally crimp just over that band, not on it. I do like a fairly aggressive crimp though.

I have been interested in the bullet your having trouble with, and was debating on ordering some to try.
I have sort of come at the hole long range game sideways, starting with my lubes. I wanted a bullet of that nose design falling between 485 and 500 grns, however I had a few small changes in mind for the lower half of it, Harlan tried very hard and very nicely to convince me that what I wanted wouldn't work for long range....in my opinion and well opinions are like ... uhm, noses, most people have one....I thought it sounded like a good idea at the time, and I have not abandonded my idea yet, I just put it on hold for a bit. I explained it and I did get his interest spiked in my design.

I did find that Mr. Sage was a rather nice guy on the phone, You may want to let him know about your issue with the bullet, and I am a firm believer in calling on the phone. It often bears better results than writing. I know the price of those bullets and that is some expensive alloy !

[Don McDowell]

Dan4570, try some bullets from the saeco 645 mould , they work quite well in the 45-70 out to 1000 yds and a wee bit beyond.

[ColColt]

I haven't talked with Harlan, I just sent them an email explaining the problem and never heard back. Those bullets were right at $50 counting the cost plus shipping. Looks like all I can do with them is dump them in the pot...expensive alloy for sure. With the nose having a long bearing surface and being at .450" they just won't work in this rifle.

[Lumpy grits]

I haven't talked with Harlan, I just sent them an email explaining the problem and never heard back. Those bullets were right at $50 counting the cost plus shipping. Looks like all I can do with them is dump them in the pot...expensive alloy for sure. With the nose having a long bearing surface and being at .450" they just won't work in this rifle.

BEST to call Harlan.
LG

[Tom Myers]

You might try what I did.
If you have a 44 mag or 44 special sizing die, you can screw it a short way into your press and then run the loaded round up into the die. The base of my 44 mag die sized the nose of the bullet down to 0.448 and then the rounds chambered fine.
If the die is a steel die, you could probably hone it out to where the bore riding nose would just kiss the tops of the lands when loaded.
I tried to hone my die but it is a Lee carbide sizing die and all I could accomplish was to polish it to a high shine.

[Chill Wills]

Very cool Tom but do you mean size the nose to 0.449" 0.450" ?
OR
I am I missing how the fat bore ride nose gets smaller?
I am not sure how the 458 would help?
MichaelRix

[John Boy]

... and found they won't chamber. In fact, they lack about 1/4" closing.
Remove the bell on the case mouth of your reloads! It sticks out like wings past the driving band. Don't crimp just flatten down the bell to the OD of the case
Put some magic marker on those bells, chamber and you'll see scrap marks when you extract the round as the issue why the rounds won't fully chamber

[Bent Ramrod]

Have you tried the lever tool from Sagebrush Outfitters? I use one when the cartridges seat hard by thumb pressure. You'll likely wind up needing one once in a while anyway, and it should save your $50 boolit investment.

[Tom Myers]

Very cool Tom but do you mean size the nose to 0.449" 0.450" ?
OR
I am I missing how the fat bore ride nose gets smaller?
I am not sure how the 458 would help?
MichaelRix

Yep, Michael, that 458 was a typo. I edited the post to read 0.448.

After posting, I got to thinking that I have an old RCBS 44 Special die set and dug it out to measure the mouth of the sizer die. I was going to try honing that one out to where it would size the bullets from an oversize Postell mold that I have to a perfect fit to the lands in the 0.4505 bore at the throat of my Pedersoli Sharps 45-70.
Rats, the mouth of the die measures 0.452 so there isn't any help there.
That sure is a big difference between dies of the same caliber so I checked the SAAMI specs on the 44 Spec an 44 Mag cartridges and each is speced at 0.4570"
It would seem that my suggestion would only work with a Lee Carbide sizing die.
But, if ColColt has a 44 Mag or Special die, it sure wouldn't hurt to check the diameter. At least he might be able to shoot the bullets instead of melting them down.

[MT Chambers]

I have, in the past, sized the front portion of the bullet only, making it a "bore rider", using a die that matches land to land measurements, size nose first on an RCBS lubrisizer using a flat top punch, this has been done for a long time by cast bullet benchrest shooters.
The bullet will meet more resistance going into the die when it hits the first driving band and that's when you back off and eject the bullet.

[Chill Wills]

Right. And I think most of us would do that. ....Given that you have the correct obscure size lube/die.
The problem here is, Colt is just trying to save 50 trial bullets from the remelt pot. He would not buy a 0.449" sizer just for that.

Tom's idea was that he might already own something that could work.
all the best,

[Don McDowell]

Have you tried the lever tool from Sagebrush Outfitters? I use one when the cartridges seat hard by thumb pressure. You'll likely wind up needing one once in a while anyway, and it should save your $50 boolit investment.

If they still making those things out of plexiglass, much better to get one from arizonasharpshooters.com. Those are made from aluminum, and won't shatter and leave your action full of plexiglass dust. Plus the hook on the end of the handle lets you extract a cartridge that is stuck just far enough the guns extractor can't get ahold of it.

[ColColt]

I have one of those aluminum cartridge seaters Don's talking about and it comes in useful now and then but I don't want to have to use it on every cartridge and that's what I'd have to do with these bullets. Since Sagebrush has deemed it unnecessary to get back with me those bullets are going in the pot-lessons learned. The closelst think I have to a .449" die is a .452" so, liquid they become.