Anybody casting 50 cal for In-lines?

[wiljen]

Just wanted some ideas for a 50 caliber CVA inline I just came by. Anybody shooting fullsized bullets in these or does everybody now use sabots?

[skullmount]

wiljen,

Get ahold of Dan at Bullshop, he has this mold!

I picked this from a thread from a site where the White guys hang out. This is a GB that we did last year, run by the famous Underclocked.

We call the bullet the uc short. Bands are just over .506 cast, we size for a slip-fit in our .504's
Its a Lee double cavity. Weight is at 445 grains.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/cascadedad/Gun%20Pictures/Bullets200711044.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/cascadedad/Gun%20Pictures/Bullets200711043.jpg

[mooman76]

I have shot my CVA inline with several types but was distisfied with the results. Fact is I have too many projects and didn't take the time to work the loads out. I have other rifles that shoot better easier and so I didn't shoot it much. I have the Lee REAL, Minnie target projectile and the Lee improved Minnie.

[7BRU]

I was told by a very respectable person that it was the twist rate of the inlines was the culprit why nobody shoots full diamater heavy lead bullets inan inline.

BRU

[SWIAFB]

I'm shooting a Lee 360 gr improved minie out of my 50 cal optima, also have the 320 grain REAL that needs some bench time. Bye the way, 490 round ball with 20 thousand patch will shoot a tight group at 50 yards. 1 in 28 is'nt supposed to do that.

[Underclocked]

7BRU, I hate to disillusion you and in no way doubt that person's respectability - but he is positively WRONG.

[7BRU]

7BRU, I hate to disillusion you and in no way doubt that person's respectability - but he is positively WRONG.

well then my friend tell me why i don't see anyone shooting non sabot type bullets in the inlines. it's always the hawken st louis 1 in 48 guys(i got one) shooting conicals.

BRU

[Bullshop]

7bru
If you aint seein its cuz you aint lookin.
BIC/BS

[skullmount]

I picked this from the site where the White Guys hang out.
Another comment, these Whites will shoot the plastic too!
These were cast and shot by the same guy, Woodgoat, who is putting together the .350 ML, mentioned in the ML Dreamin thread.

skullmount

I got out today in the middle of the day and tried out the new Lee mould bullets. I only had 20 lubed up, and after a few shots to get on paper, I shot these two five shot groups. Shot the fffg first, then moved the elevation up a dozen or so clicks and shot the ffg group. Based on ten shots, it looks like this one wants ffg. I got lucky with my rifle and mould this time, these are shot just as they fall out of the mould, no sizing. They just barely engrave going down with just enough tension to keep em from moving when seated. I loaded these with wads cut from a golf ball box. Pro V I's for the record ;D
http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/27888/2006206256898068370_rs.jpg

I had seven left after that and just shot em all up at this bull. You can see that they started to walk up as the barrel got hot and crusty inside, but when I wiped the bore with one slightly damp patch, the last shot went right back in the group. I bleeve I can bust a deer's ace wid this stuff. ;)

http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/28808/2006299831757339544_rs.jpg

[Bullshop]

This one is with a gas check 610gn boolit from a White rifle.
http://dwbs.proboards28.com/index.cgi?board=bullets&action=display&thread=1196805679

[skullmount]

Here ya go Dan.
Hope this helps!

Another full bore conical, 610 grainer cast by Bullshop

But first I fired out the load that had been in the Ultra Mag for over 14 and a half days. The original 4 shot group from sight in on November 2nd was still attached to my target box so I fired at it rather hurriedly. I think it did not so bad (half of that displacement was probably due to my anticipation of the big bruisers I was going to shoot :o ). All shots fired today were at 100 yards.

http://aycu17.webshots.com/image/35936/2003769515913531357_fs.jpg

Used a MAP dampened patch - both sides to swab after the shot above and after all subsequent shots. Didn't bother with a dry patch.

Fired the Bull Shop gas-checked 610 grain conicals over a charge of 60 grains of FFFg Swiss. I fired each shot as quickly as I could get reloaded for reasons unknown to me. ;D I knew that I had pulled up on shot 3 the moment I felt the trigger break ::) . That "greater than" symbol was supposed to be a "less than". DOH!

http://aycu35.webshots.com/image/36634/2003719196710662614_rs.jpg

Recoil was not at all severe with that load. I think the group could have been more impressive with more carefully thrown charges and a bit more time between shots.

The big boolits are magnificent bastichez but did fit a little loose in my Umag's bore. I could live with that. :)

Thankyouverymuch

[7BRU]

very nice. where do i jump on the bandwagon. but wait a minute. where are the targets shooting 2 pellets or 3 pellets. or if you wish 120 grains of loose powder magnum charge.



BRU

[Red River Rick]

7BRU:

What are you wanting to kill, elephants? And throw those pellets in the bush as far as you can, they are good for .............

You'll get better accuracy with loose powder. Accuracy would be my primary goal, pushing the coal to her would be next. Besides, after firing a few 600 grainers backed by 120 grs of HOLY BLACK, you'll soon change your mind.

The pictures in the previous posts most certainly prove that full bore slugs can and will shoot well in modern muzzle loaders with fast rates of twist. The key is to find the right combination.

RRR

[7BRU]

oh i don't know about elephants but i usually shoot at least 80-100 grains. never have liked to shoot over 100 gr of loose because i never saw much of an improvement and yes i agree with u RRR about the pellets. they just suck.

I just want to be able to shoot a conical around 400 gr with 80-100 gr of loose and hit the broadside of a barn without having to clean the gun after one shot.

thanks BRU

[skullmount]

very nice. where do i jump on the bandwagon. but wait a minute. where are the targets shooting 2 pellets or 3 pellets. or if you wish 120 grains of loose powder magnum charge.
BRU

7bru,
surely you jest, pellets.......:???:

No jumping involved here, just time. The right bullet, the right charge and lots of time at the bench.......just like the other irons that you push lead thru...............


oh i don't know about elephants but i usually shoot at least 80-100 grains. never have liked to shoot over 100 gr of loose because i never saw much of an improvement and yes i agree with u RRR about the pellets. they just suck.

I just want to be able to shoot a conical around 400 gr with 80-100 gr of loose and hit the broadside of a barn without having to clean the gun after one shot.

thanks BRU

Look at the target, and the loads listed there. One of the best lessons I have learned about thisover the years is, "Less is More"
Less powder=More accurate

What are you shooting now? Is your bore consistant, from muzzle to breech?
What kind of lube is used?
Slug your bore.

[lungbuster1]

I personaly shoot the U C Shorts out of my Inlines with 85gr loose 2fg 777 And I will tell you that I am very Impresed with th accuracy all My Inlines carry a 1/28" Twist GM Barrle , I can shoot a 1" to 1.50" 5 Shot group at 100yds All day long I purches these from Dan AT BULL SHOP . AWSOME to say the least.
Ron

[Rayber]

Hi, I never thought my 1st post would be in the BP section. My son was a dedicated Sabot shooter but since we cast and shoot 7 different calibers (adding 2 rifles this week) we decided to give CB's a try. I soft cast straight WW strips in the LEE R.E.A.L mold. I then tumbled them in hot Johnson's Floor wax. He loads them with a wad of Borebutter on top of 100gr of Pyrodex (by weight) After firing 3 rounds (<1.25") he gave up sabots. Since seeing his results I pickup a CVA for X-mas. If it ever gets warm and dry at the same time we are going to try replacing the Johnson's wax and Borebutter with BPRC from White Label Lube (http://www.lsstuff.com/index.html)

[See it doesn't hurt to make a post..LOL Great Forum] I guess I'd better find an avatar next.

[7BRU]

U C shorts. thanks lungbuster. and rayber thanks also. i got a FRIEND that has a lee real mold like u speak of. looked at it just a few minutes ago. how much does it weigh?

see thats what i am after. 200 yard range 300 gr full fifty caliber cast slug.

less is more. less powder means more trajectory.

BRU

[Onlymenotu]

I soft cast straight WW strips in the LEE R.E.A.L mold.
.

your so called strips of ww....... I take it you mean stick on ww...they are pretty mutch pure soft lead.... [smilie=1: I cast up some R.E.A.L's out of clip on ww... big big mistake on my part......I got one flush with the top off the muzzle,,, and could not drive it any farther with a short starter.....my hand was bruzed- soar for a week I end up taking it back to the house and drilling it out,,,,,,was told I could anneal them and make them work* soft'n em up * never had any luck at that,,,, either smelted them back down to a useable ingot...... and only cast the R.E.A.L's,,,,, out of soft lead from that point on

My Dad was shooting the 240 grn 50 cal R.E.A.L's out of his 1-28 twist * they are twin guns* and I was shooting the Lee C452 300 RF grn 45 cal with a Harvester Sabot my 300 grn 45 cal shoots mutch flatter than the R.E.A.L does with less powder sighted at 50 yards we were shooting 85 grns of 2f tripple f sub at 50 yards we're both on the paper me 1" high him dead on....... at 100 yards i'm about 1'' low..... and he is completely off the paper..... we had to jack him up to 120 grns* max load* to get him back on the paper.....

I was trying to get away from the xtra cost of a sabot,,, when plinking but for hunting ,,, I'll pay the xtra cost for the flatter shot,,,,

[skullmount]

Where is wiljen? He asked the question.

Maybe he is sittin on the sideline with a big grin!

[Underclocked]

Carl, that posting of mine didn't really transfer all that well. :mrgreen:

http://www.missouri-whitetails.com/data/500/49Elite020106.jpg

http://www.missouri-whitetails.com/data/1/49bigboys.jpg

some of those are actually mine. :-D The 220 yarder and the two at left center. Some of the others were shot with bullets that I had cast. And these were put together before Dan (Bull Shop) was lured into the world of big conicals by us White shooters. I don't think he regrets it. :)

The thing about the trajectory... if you are expecting .270 performance from a muzzleloader then you should perhaps just buy a centerfire and be done with it. But you can certainly get .270 ACCURACY from a muzzleloader and you can do so at good distance. The trajectory arc is severe past about 150 yards, but it is also VERY repeatable.

[Rattus58]

U C shorts. thanks lungbuster. and rayber thanks also. i got a FRIEND that has a lee real mold like u speak of. looked at it just a few minutes ago. how much does it weigh?

see thats what i am after. 200 yard range 300 gr full fifty caliber cast slug.

less is more. less powder means more trajectory.

BRU

I just had to pipe in here a little. Sabots have long been the favorite of the inlines due in major part to the marriage of Tony Knights fast twist barrels and the discovery of a plastic cup, the invention of Del Ramsey I think it was which enabled folks to shoot small bullets at very high speed out of a muzzleloader. Hard to load, but cool to talk about.... 1700 fps... 2000 fps .... 2200 fps... sizzling

Accuracy of sabots is good but because of the component system there is room for wiggle, offset, deformity, and sabot failure, which has import downrange unless care is taken on every shot.

Conicals, which have been with us since the beginning of 19th century became refined in the 1860's. At that time, the caliber that produced the absolute best accuracy was .451 with twist rates of 1-20 for a 500 grain bullet. Whitworth, Rigby, Henry, all took on this caliber with various wrinkles to each. At the beginning of the NRA rifle matches at Wimbledon in 1860, a Whitworth rifle was fixed to a table and allowed to slide on a steel plate during recoil. The idea was to have the queen pull the first shot with a lanyard, which she did. The result was a hit 1.25" from center.... 400 yards away.

Long heavy bullets during trials of Whitworth rifles were very accurate, with 3" groups at 300 yards, 8" groups at 500. Try this on yer 270... :)

With a 50 caliber, 1-24" makes it right as well.

Aloha... :cool:

[skullmount]

rattus,

that was a short lesson, compared to others I have seen..............[smilie=1:

[Rattus58]

That's only cuz I fell asleep..... :) I realized that this was a mediocre attempt... but I'm fresh and ready now.... :mrgreen::mrgreen:

[Bullshop]

7BRU
If you really want to get the performance you are talking about the place to experiment would be with gas check boolits and alloyed lead. I had hopped to do some testing in that area but as yet have not found the time.
I have been observing the DWB's and takeing notes. As you have seen from them gas check boolits will do quite well from a quick twist ML. If I apply some of what I have learned from shooting cartridge guns of the same caliber with barrels of the same or even faster twist I feel certain a ML will perform equally well at similar velocity.
As with a ML a cartridge gun will limit out with PB alloyed boolits at about 1500 FPS.
If you add a gas check the same boolit even in pure lead can still do well at upwards of 2000 FPS and if alloyed a bit harder than lead quite a bit faster.
This is fairly wide open to experimenting as I have found very little written about it.
The one major differance between the cartridge gun and the ML is the ML begins with bore diameter boolite and must obturate up in diameter to fill the groove and the cartridge gun starts out with its boolits at groove diameter or slightly over.
Even so I have seen some test done by the DWB's shooting .451" fully jacketed bullets in a .451" bore and using T-7 fffg powder that shot extreamly well showing full well that a hard bullet will obturate up to fill the groove.
With gas check boolits and alloyed lead using barrel twist of 18" to 20" in 45 cal it is no real chore to get fine accuracy at up to 2500 FPS with a cartridge gun if you can stand it.
The big challange with a ML will be in finding an acceptable fuel that can safely acheive the higher velocities you are looking for.
If you have an idea that you may like to experiment with alloyed boolits and gas checks I would be glad to help you out. God willing I hope to clear a bit more of that trail this summer.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Rattus58]

What makes conicals work best is the manner in which they are loaded as well as the environment that they work in. Bullets shoot straight when they are loaded aligned with the barrel and this is accomplished best with either a bore sized bullet that follows the bore or false muzzle that aligns the bullet while also sometimes engraving it. An old zen saying... a centered bullet has straight path in life...

Some of the other aspects of these big ol bullets that make them follow the path of those before them, is a bore that is rifled with just enough depth to guide rather than grab. Wide shallow grooves fill easily, seal off over-running hot gasses quickly and don't deform the bullet. The use of a wad under the bullet helps with protecting the base of the bullet, helps contain hot gasses that can melt lead, and if tamped on to the powder prior to loading the bullet, can keep the bullet resting on the powder without being "mashed down" onto the powder that so many seem to feel is important to do. A pampered bullet is a happy bullet, and when spun right, will deliver the goods far far downrange, with the average bullet we shoot, maintaining over 1000 fpe well past 300 yards, and when you read of a quackenbush airgun dropping deer and pigs with round balls and a 2000 bison with a .457 bullet, extending those ballistics, our bullets theoretically woulda dropped that same bison at 800 yards... which of course some did back in them ol days.

Big bullets also don't need "three pellets" or "two" for that matter, to work well. 70-80 grains will launch the bullet to a 1000 yards with quackengush airgun power all the way.

As far as accuracy goes, well you've already seen UC's evidence and this is typical and I'm confident in saying that with proper loading 2" groups or better are guaranteed with the proper barrel.

Aloha... :cool:

[Rattus58]

Gas checks.... yes... well I learnt from the master hisself.. I've not sent a gas check much past 1800 fps I don't think, but there is a process that has to be done to make them work well. On my .452 bullets, the gas check has to be annealed or it won't load.. period. On my 50's, I have a .499 sizer that I can squeeze them on to the first groove then resize to .500 to .504. without having to anneal, but if you were to size the bullet to .503, you'd have to anneal first or it won't load. You cannot load a .504 gas check in a .504 bore... well you can, but the bullet will look like a meteorite has been loaded,

Gas checks fly faster than do unchecked bullet in ALL of my guns. I don't know if this is the check providing a much better seal than can a wad or not (which I still use with the gas check to tamp the powder). I can probably say with accuracy that leading is impossible with a gas check bullet at below 1800 fps.

Aloha :cool:

[wiljen]

Where is wiljen? He asked the question.

Maybe he is sittin on the sideline with a big grin!

I've been watching and learning - thinking I'm gonna order a few things from bullshop.

[idahoron]

I have a green Mountain .458 barrel on my Renegade. It is 1-18 twist and 32" long. I have used soft and alloyed lead in it. When I first started to shoot it I was using a 475 gr Lyman Whitworth bullet. I shot them soft at first. They did not impress me. I started to use a over powder wad and they did a little better. Then I cast some out of reclaimed lead shot. They were HARD! The bullets measure .454 so they did go down pretty well. I used a over powder wad and I got sub 2" groups with 90 gr of pyrodex P.
Then I got a Lee 459-405-HB mould. These bullets are supposed to be 405 gr. All I could get them to weigh was 385 to 388 max with soft lead. I tried them with several different types of lead soft, hard, and a couple of mixes I made. I sized them down to .454 to get them to go down. I used a felt wad under the powder and still I just was not getting under about 3"
That is when I tried Paper Patching. I have shot both soft and hard lead with great success. The hard ones go down pretty hard but they go down and are accurate. The only problem is the point of impact is quite different. The HARD lead bullets shoot about 3" higher and about 3" to the left compared to the soft ones.
This picture is a test group. The first three shots were soft lead and I used a BPCR lube and a felt wad, it is the bottom group. I cleaned the gun and shot a group with Paper patch soft lead with a little Hornady great plains lube on them. I am sold on PP for muzzle loaders. Ron
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/11-24-07--45-70.jpg

[Rattus58]

What is your actual bore diameter, do you know? Every bullet is different, and it sounds like your Lyman bullet was actually doing pretty well.

Aloha... :cool:

[skullmount]

:-D
looks like idahoron is doing his hom...I mean rangework.....

great job of reporting too

looks like your testing is paying off! :-D