Martini-Henry Project Gun

[OKSaddletramp]

I just came across a M-H carbine in 577/450 at Southern Ohio Gun for $295 with "missing small parts" and "non-firing". I'm wondering if this would make a decent donor for a re-barrel project I have in mind. A couple of questions.

Are these worth buying to make a shooter out of? I'm afraid this might be one of those "Khyber Pass" ***. Anyone know for sure?

How dificult is it to replace the barrel on a Martini? I have no experience with these rifles, but have always wanted to give them a try. They seem VERY popular around here.

While the project I have in mind would probably be better done with a Cadet rather than a full size M-H, I haven't found any Cadet actions anywhere, and if the SOG gun is usable at all, I doubt I'll hurt it with the caliber I have in mind (.357 Maximum).

[skeettx]

GET IT :)

https://www.marstar.ca/dynamic/category.jsp?catid=78979

[curator]

Get the folks at SOG to assure you it is not a Kyber Pass gun. I recently bought a "long-lee" Enfield from them listed as "original." Guess what? Yup, Kyber Pass model. I would not attempt a rebuild on anything made in Pakistan or Afganistan.

[Tackleberry41]

Doubt you would want to run something in the 357 maximum pressure level thru a martini action anyways. It was designed around BP, so under 20k, even then is probably pushing its safety limits.

I have 2, the Nepalese ones, but still in the original caliber. Thought of rebarreling one, but with parts availability iffy just bought some chamber inserts to shoot 45-70 thru them.

[Hooker53]

Hello Saddle. I was right in the middle of the same questions you are asking a year or so ago. Like they said above. First, identify your MH. I have a 1/2 doz or so around both in the 577 and the Cadets. None of them luckily are not the K Pass vintage. If yours is, keep your pressures down and BP only. I would also not hasitate to barrel down to a small Caliber lime 32 S&W Long or smaller. If its a Mk 3 or 4 I would do low presure 357 but sneak up on your loading. If your like me when your on the line like this, I would strap it to a tire and try it that way for a few. Ha. The biggest thing that helped me was a lot of reading on what other folks is doing with theirs. Keep us I formed on how you are coming with it and good luck. They are a fun rifle. Love fixing this old stuff up.

Roy
Hooker53

[skeettx]

I rebarreled my Enfield 1887Mk IV long lever 577-450 SHOT to 444 Marlin and it does quite well !!

Home Gunsmithing Digest (1970) has a great article on making a Martini rifle in .444 marlin.

Mike

[Jedman]

For $ 295.00 you wount be buying a real MH rifle. I got taken on a Kyber Pass rifle in .303 British and tried to rebarrel it. All I can say is it had a very odd thead on the barrel shank, I could not cut anything like it on my lathe so I forgot about that project. The gun is a constant source of frustration so I would recommend you beware of buying the gun you are describing. SOG has been known to sell Kyber Pass copies and not state that they are not British made guns.

Jedman

[zuke]

I paid $250 for my Brit Martini in 577-450. It took me about 5 month's of research to be able to shoot it.

[Jedman]

zuke , You are very fortunate to get a genuine MH rifle for what you paid. I Watch for Martinis all the time online and 9 out of 10 that claim they are the real deal are counterfeits.
I notice they almost all have poor quality pictures of the receiver and any identifying features.
Once you have seen enough of them you can spot a fake fairly easily.

Jedman

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If they have ever sold Khyber Pass copies as originals, nobody can be sure on the basis of what we have heard here. Real or fake are both possibilities, but I wouldn't assume the worst from the price. "Small parts" can count for a lot with Martinis, for they can be expensive to buy when they are available (which for the commonly broken ones isn't always), and a lot of people are afraid to gamble on getting and fitting them. I've milled, sawn and filed an extractor from 01 tool steel, with a small amateur milling machine. It worked, looked good to its loving parent, and took only a day. But the lack of one ought to reduce a rifle's price considerably.

You need to buy on a clear understanding that it is being sold as the real thing, and you can return it if it isn't. If they are an established firm with a long-term customer base, they are unlikely to go back on that. Even a copy could mean just about anything. Those gunsmiths in the border area built (and still build) firearms for the tribesmen themselves to use, and that was an extremely knowledgeable and extremely lethal market. "Refund and you can keep your other eye" is a powerful persuader. I don't doubt that some of these have been finding their way out in recent years, but they may not be readily distinguishable by finish from the murderously dangerous wall décor, and I wouldn't try to distinguish.

Some of the signs are notorious: misspelt inscriptions, inverted letters, ciphers etc. made from more than one punch, cyphers reading VR after 1901 or GR before 1901, etc. (the year George V succeeded Victoria.)

The military Martini is not a weak action. Although BBP pressures were fairly low, they increased when the bore was heavily fouled, and the huge case head meant that thrust on the block was considerable. I once did some very rough calculations on a modern rifle with modern cases and pressure, and found that the case alone could withstand rearward pressure roughly equaling that of a .38 revolver. With the coiled brass of the Martini it simply didn't, permitting more pressure to be sharply decanted onto the breech face.

All marks of the military Martini were successfully converted for early smokeless loads of the .303. This was not entirely trouble free, for there were some failures of the breechblock which made it function badly unless a special .303 block was used, or the existing one was modified. Sometimes this was done by dovetailing in a piece of hard steel, which also provided the hole for a smaller diameter firing pin. I have had good results by grinding back the face enough to silver solder in place a piece of .04in. thick spring steel cabinet scraper. What I have not heard, though, is that any of the block failures were dangerous. I think they only jammed the rifle.

If you plan a high pressure round, the .303 Martini-Enfield is the best starting point. For one thing, the extractor is closer to fitting most modern case heads. The legs of the larger one work if bent inwards. But I would feel happier annealing first and rehardening afterwards.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

In answer to your other question, a good British Martini-Henry is very easy to rebarrel. The flat receiver is easily gripped with thin metal or card protection in an ordinary engineer's vice - by the front end, and never substitute a wooden or metal bar through the action, which is very likely to crack or twist it. The barrel is likely to have a double nock's form, above and below. You can often turn it with a large adjustable wrench. Or do it the other way round, barrel in the vice and front end of the action in the wrench. If there are no nock's forms (i.e. if the barrel is round for all its length), turning a roughly tapered hole in the biggest aluminium block that will fit the adjustable wrench, and fixing it to the barrel with epoxy as well as a driving fit, has worked for me. You can release it by heating after the final fit.

Belgian Martinis are usually good. Very early in its history a large delegation from the Liege gun trade was invited to inspect the Enfield factory, which was no skin off the nose of the government's military arms factory. Some may have a different thread from the usual 1in.x14tpi thread, 55 degree Whitworth form. A Lee-Enfield barrel is the same, and you just have to shorten the threads till the block clears the barrel, deepen the chamber, and cut the extractor slots. There are special dies in 1in.x14 Unified, incliuding on eBay, and I have seen them clean up quite enough bright metal on a Belgian Martini.

[truckjohn]

SOG is known to have sold a bunch of Khyber martinis....

Even if it is legit - spares for 150 year old guns are thin on the ground.... and would require hand fitting *IF* you can get ahold of them.

Use appropriate caution.

[Harter66]

Atanta Cutlery still has untouched HMs from the massive buy a few yrs ago in india. 189 plus shipping possibly missing /possibly extra small parts wall hanger or winter project, from their ad . My Dad is thinking about a 45-?? single shot. They're 489 cleaned up and prettied up some with all the parts.

[skeettx]

http://www.atlantacutlery.com/p-736-m-1878-martini-henry-short-lever-infantry-rifle-untouched.aspx

http://www.atlantacutlery.com/c-162-guns-rifles-untouched.aspx

Happy New Year !!