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View Full Version : Muzzleloaders...in general



RBak
03-23-2005, 01:55 PM
Since this a new site, a new board, and a brand new post. I would like to start out by saying I hope we can do better now.....with all this new stuff, when it comes to muzzleloaders.

I have a few muzzleloaders, and although they are all of the "traditional" type, I still love to hear about what others are doing.

I cast for everything I own, except a .256 Newton, and it ain't worth the effort for a gun that is so seldom fired.

And I have upwards of fifty or so moulds for my muzzleloaders. And shooter575, and a few others, have even more I'm sure.

Let's start out with a little "show & tell" with some of my muzzleloaders, and see if we can't get this Blackpowder thing started.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/RussB256/MyMuzzleloaders.jpg

shooter575
03-23-2005, 02:48 PM
Hey Russ, Long time no see. I guess you got the first post on the muzzle stuffers board. I am working on a couple new projects.Will have pics for show & tell soon.
How has your winter been? We set a new alltime record for snow this year. Damm tired of it.
Awating spring

RBak
03-24-2005, 10:47 AM
Hey Jim!........I been reading a lot about your doings over the winter months, seems it hasn't slowed your shooting all that much. :)

I got in one real good shoot in Jan. over around Wala Wala, didn't win anthing much, but I did meet some very nice people. I may have broke the standing, off hand, 40 Rod, Range Record, I don't know.
The last I heard they were still still arguing the point.
I even got to shoot my first "chunk" gun. Man! What a blast! I'm hooked. :oops:

The weather here has been a disaster! We have had no snow, and no snow pack. Looks like we are headed for the biggest drought in recorded history. Several counties are on a conservation program already. And, should it continue, they will close our rifle range for shooting muzzleloaders....shooting anything for that matter.

Russ

Hang Fire
03-25-2005, 01:34 AM
For the trads I (no speak inliners) mostly hang out on three other sites, but always glad to find like minded souls on another board.

I haven't posted for several moons on the old boolits board, will try to contribute more here on the new site.

Just finished building a little .54 flinter hunting rifle with a C-profile barrel, had it out recently on a windy day to zero and it still managed to keep two three shot goups under 1 1/2" at 50 yards from rest.

Any smooth bore shooters here? Will be taking the fusil de chasse out bunny busting next week, (having a good green up here in this part of AZ and the young ones will be out hopping about) the .62 (20 ga.) throws a pretty good pattern with 1 1/4 oz. #6 over 80 grains of 3F.

waksupi
03-25-2005, 02:55 AM
I admit to shooting a few. this is my current battery, minus my *** pistol.
I can't find the pics of my Alexander Henry, right off hand. i'll try it later.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/waksupi/NSsend.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/waksupi/Ksend.jpg

RBak
03-25-2005, 09:24 AM
Waksupi....That top one appears to be an original Barnett Trade Gun.
If I am not mistaken, I "think" I see a sitting fox, facing East. This may be the first such stamping I have seen on top of the barrel.
That is quite a gun!
The Barnett has always been the gun that attracted me most because of it's history / background. I owned one once, but it was in a condition that relegated it to the wall...or so I thought. I understand it was restored and is now being shot.

Hangfire.....Like you, I don't understand a lot about the In-line shooters either. I've never owned one, never had the desire to own one. They have no appeal to me at all, it would seem to me you defeat the purpose of owning a muzzleloader by buying one, but what would I know.
I agree, the "other" board started drying up a bit, but hopefully, this one would get a few more posts.

Seems to be fewer, and fewer of us guys posting, and that's not good. Causes a feller to drift off elsewhere looking for things.

I'm sure there is enough knowledge here, but it seems you have to drag 'em out of the wood work every once and while, by saying something stupid....then they are like fly's!
I think, for the most part, the average age of this board is a bit more than others too....they like to watch the kids play, but if ya get out of line, ya got something coming.... you know what I'm saying, I'm sure.

Russ

Let's see if I got another view of that "sitting fox".....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/RussB256/Barnett_Trade_Gun_circa_1810_Fox_faces_right.jpg[/url]

shooter575
03-25-2005, 11:04 AM
Hang Fire
I shoot smoothies,love em. I restored a cutdown 1816 built in 1827,converted to caplock in 1860. Shoots a house afire at 25 & 50 yards with RB and ff Goex 80gr also. I have just started doing another a Harpers Ferry 16 for my daughter to shoot this year. I picked up a new stock for a 16 that I think I will build as a rock lock. And I have a nice maple full length stock that need to become a flinter.

Waksupi, That my friend is a fine musket! Real nice....

waksupi
03-25-2005, 11:41 AM
I built the trade gun, and the Pennsylvania rifle. The trade gun was made about 25 years ago, from one of Curly's kits. If you were familiar with them back then, they came in a box, and the stuff inside the box vaguely looked like they could possibly be made into a gun of some sort.

Found the pictures of my Alexander Henry English sporting rifle. This was built by Tim Mitchell, engraving by Larry Merical and Franz Marktl.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/waksupi/englishcomposite.jpg

Hang Fire
03-25-2005, 11:53 AM
Hey waksupi,

Those pieces would look very good in any rack, but would also be great afield.

Hang Fire
03-25-2005, 12:01 PM
shooter575,

I love the smoothies too, versatile comes first to mind, followed by, wow, they really are a great dual purpose tool. My fusil has a 46 inch oct. to rd. swamped tube, swings and mounts to the shoulder on target unlike any gun I have ever owned.

RBak
03-25-2005, 06:42 PM
Hangfire....Let's see some pictures of that thing. Ain't nothing better than looking at pitures of nice guns.

Waksupi...That last one is very nice. Imagine the time that went into all that engraving...wow!

Do I understand that you built that first rifle, in the pictures, (The Trade Gun) from a kit??

Russ

waksupi
03-26-2005, 12:20 AM
Russ, yes it was built from a kit, but as you may have inferred from my previous post, back then, the kit was a very generous name for them. There was a block of wood, and some metal parts.
The ones from Matt Dennison, down at Frenchtown Mt., North Star West, gives you a lot more running start at the whole thing, as compared towhat they were 25 years ago. You still had better have a bit of knowledge about tackling any kit of this type. They aren't a CVA/Thompson throw together. the finished quality will be what effort you put into it. If any of you ever do any ML buildig and have any questions, i'd be happy to tell you what I can. I'm far from an expert. I have some neighbors who are, such as Tim Mitchell, and Monte Mandarino, who have given me good advise over the years.
As far as time on engraving. I do a bit, and have been working at it maybe five or six years. I'm still a pilgrim. Once again, I have the advantage of having such friends as Larry Merical, Franz Marktl, Dan Goodman, Ed Morgan, Monte Mandarino, and the late Tony Lageose, who all put anything I do to low shame. I wouldn't be surprised if you would do a search on any of those on the internet, you wouldn't find some of thier work featured. I know some of thier work is in Steel Canvas.
The hardest part of engraving is the original art work, and the layout. Doing the actual engraving goes comparatively fast. Franz apprenticed in Austria, and all he was allowed to do for the first two years was sweep floors, and they didn't even let him start drawing design until the third year, let alone cut any metal. By the way, he is the only European Master working in the US.
I'd suggest everyone to try some engraving. Get Meeks, Book of Engraving from Brownells, and you will get a very good basic instruction. Once you do, you can engrave your tape measures, coffee cups, car keys, anything but a firearm until you have done lots of practice pieces.
Curiously enough, I had figured that brass and German silver would be good metals to begin on. Not neccessarily. A properly sharpended graver tends to bite deep on these soft metals. I guess it is good for teaching you very good control methods, but are not a real confidence builder. The thing to start your practice on is mild steel plates, about 2"X3". Those are more than enough to begin work on.

Hang Fire
03-26-2005, 02:20 AM
To RussB,

Will get pics of some I have put together, none are fancy, just plain Jane hunting pieces.

waksupi
03-26-2005, 02:32 AM
Some of Ed Morgan's work

http://www.edmorgangallery.com/Rifle.html

Some of Franz'. I'll give him a good bio plug here, as I've known him about 25 years, and he is a very close friend. I have a sterling silver totem, that he engraved a Past Masters' Masonic emblem on for a gift to me, that I greatly cherish.
One of the top in the world, and much of his work is available to be seen .

Franz Marktl is one of the few European-trained engravers still practicing their art. Beginning at age 14 as an apprentice, Mr. Marktl has now reached the top of his craft. An Austrian National Treasure, it has been said of Mr. Marktl, if he were a singer, he would be Pavorotti, and if he were a painter, he would be Michelangelo.

Specializing in wildlife, Franz Marktl has the ability to capture the animal in its natural environment. He has spent his life traveling around the world studying wildlife anatomy.

Franz Marktl engraved custom guns and knives are sought by collectors the world over. He has been commissioned by the White House and by foreign heads of State to produce his treasures. His work has been shown at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and at the Smithsonian Museum to name a few.

Each master engraving begins with a detailed drawing. The artwork is then transferred onto a thick sheet of sterling silver. Mr. Marktl uses hand made tools to remove bits of metal, sculpting each hair, each rock, each leaf. Every detail is precisely shaped to capture its beauty for all time. A special mold is made at the Heritage Pewter Foundry to faithfully reproduce the intricacy of Mr. Marktl's spectacular work.


http://www.swshotguns.com/investment/P_V_PIC/p_v_pic.html

http://www.dressels.com/id180.htm

Here's one more from Franz, done on some of Eldon Peterson's kives, another local boy.

http://www.plazacutlery.com/eldon_peterson%20Piggyback%20Engraved%20Set%20big. htm

This one is an exceptinal piece by Monte and Dan. The pics aren't very good. This is one of the first rifles I saw done by these guys. Montehad even made scale cartridges for this rifle, and it would shoot. Maybe an .080 caliber.

http://www.muzzleloaders-etcetera.com/a_cased_miniature_mauser.htm

I just thought you may like to see some good craftsmanship in the scope of muzzleloaders in particular, and firearms in general. Over the last 25-30 years, this area has been a Mecca to custom gun builders and related crafts.

KCSO
04-12-2005, 04:41 PM
Waksupi
I also built a trade gun from one of Curly's kits in the 70's being cheap and having a bucket full of 12 Ga wads I had him send the gun out in 12 bore. After sever calls and much discussion I had a trade gun that met the approval of Curly and Charles Hanson at the Museum of the Fur Trade. A 6 1/2 pound 12 gauge. Needless to say with full loads that gun kicked. In the next 25 years that gun made the rounds of all the clubs in Nebraska and I got it back several times in trade. You could always tell who had that gun because they were somewhat squinty eyed and they rubbed their shoulders a lot. I currently shoot an Officers fusil in 20 bore.

waksupi
04-12-2005, 05:51 PM
My first one I owned many years ago was also a twelve bore. Didn't take long to get tired of that! I managed to stay head to head with a flint rifle shooter last weekend with my 20 bore at our local shoot. I think I was actually one target up on him, but neither of us cared enough to argue the point very far. He is convinced he needs a trade gun now.

Ballistics in Scotland
04-13-2005, 04:20 AM
A rifle is more susceptible than a smoothbore to uneven or wrinkled patching, since if the centre of mass of the bullet is off-centre, it actually travels in a spiral down the bore. On exiting, it heads off on a straight line pointing where the last part of that spiral did. A smoothbore is immune to this effect, but I think its superiority would rapidly deteriorate beyond 70 yards or so.

RBak
04-15-2005, 02:33 PM
A rifle is more susceptible than a smoothbore to uneven or wrinkled patching, since if the centre of mass of the bullet is off-centre, it actually travels in a spiral down the bore. On exiting, it heads off on a straight line pointing where the last part of that spiral did. A smoothbore is immune to this effect, but I think its superiority would rapidly deteriorate beyond 70 yards or so.

BIS....I don't think I've ever heard this explaination before. But, after "sleeping" on this for a day or so, it is starting to make good sense.

That may be the reason I decided that cutting the patch at the barrel, vs pre-cut patches, gave me a bit better accuracy, and cut down on flyers.

I have often thought the observation was not vaild, meaning there was another reason for the occasional flyer that couldn't be accounted for, but if the patch isn't "squared" to the bore, and the ball, you will get a flyer.

I suspect the same principal applies to the smoothie, but with less frequency, because the vast majority of patches are cut at the barrel, and would have "less" uneven, or wrinkled patches.

Russ