Benchrest Technique

[Clinton]

I've been to the range a lot this month testing different 308 cast loads. The last two trips I began to notice something strange. Two or three shots would clump together nicely and then the remaining shots in the group would shift point of impact and group together. Or I would group 4 shots nicely and then get a wild flyer. So I began to question my benchrest shooting technique. I did some reading on various benchrest shooting styles and went back to the range today with 20 rounds.
124709

1. In this group the first three rounds landed directly at point of aim. The second two hit lower and right. I think mostly I was concentrating on my rest system with this group, making sure the sling swivels were not contacting the bags and prohibiting the rifle from recoiling straight back.

2. In this group I concentrated more on placing the butt firmly in my shoulder. I kept a firm grip on the "pistol grip" and also held my cheek/jaw firmly into the cheek weld. The shots grouped nicely under 7/8" but the point of impact had shifted right and down just like the last two shots of the first group.

3. In this group I tried a different technique letting the rifle "free recoil". I placed the butt into my shoulder but only held the pistol grip lightly and lightly touched my cheek to the stock. Point of impact returned to point of aim but the group opened up slightly.

4. This was an attempt to recreate what I had done with group two. Not sure what happened here. The first two rounds were similar to group two but then I followed up with three more to the center. This load was also a 1 gr increase over the first 10 rounds which explains why they impacted higher.

So I'm thinking a firm hold/cheekweld is producing better results than letting the rifle recoil freely by itself. I'm planning on loading another 50 rounds all at the same charge weight this time and just spend the day shooting with the technique I used with group 2. I may also do something different with my front bag. It is leather which seems to not let my stock slide freely through it under recoil and also its a bit narrow for the wide front forend of my stock.

I've never been a big fan of benchrest shooting other than to test loads. I've always preferred to shoot with a sling because it can be used in the field. So I guess I've taken for granted how much effort it takes to shoot consistently off of a rest. The more recoil your rifle/cartridge has the more your technique seems to matter. Any of you old time bench shooters have any tips for me?

[aspangler]

Your gun likes to be "held". Some guns like it that, way some like it to free recoil, others like somewhere in between. I have been shooting bench rest 22 for a while and everyone who shoots will tell you the same. Just go with what YOUR gun likes.

[kungfustyle]

three techniques that you didn't mention and don't know if you are doing. 1 completely rest the rifle on a rest and cup the butt of the stock with your left hand in the right shoulder.
2. Open your left eye right before you shoot, helps to stabilize. 3 try to see the bullet hit, you wont but it helps with the surprise break.

[Clinton]

three techniques that you didn't mention and don't know if you are doing. 1 completely rest the rifle on a rest and cup the butt of the stock with your left hand in the right shoulder.
2. Open your left eye right before you shoot, helps to stabilize. 3 try to see the bullet hit, you wont but it helps with the surprise break.

Never heard of that but I will give it a try.

[NSB]

I've played around with this puzzle for over fifty years . My belief is that the shooter should not exert any, and I mean any, downward pressure on the gun while shooting. If I'm shooting a bolt gun I keep the front rest (a bag,not a hard rest) under the barrel near the receiver. I sit as high as possible, straight up is preferable even if you have to stand to do it. I keep the rifle pulled into my shoulder pocket with an even pressure from shot-to-shot. One thing a lot of shooters don't take into consideration. Any wind at all, even a very mild breeze, will open your groups up. Sometimes the wind can be between the shooter and the target and the shooter isn't even aware of it. Use wind flags at the target and at mid point. Good luck.

[Yodogsandman]

" I may also do something different with my front bag. It is leather which seems to not let my stock slide freely through it under recoil and also its a bit narrow for the wide front forend of my stock."....Clinton

I dust both my leather bags with mica dust from Midway to reduce friction allowing the rifle to slide more consistently during recoil.

I'm NOT a benchrester but, having struggled with the same problems of learning to shoot my hunting rifles accurately from the bench many years back, I feel compelled to add my 2 cents, FWIW.

Your forend should fit the front bag, a little narrower is better than wider.

Slide the rifle back and forth in the bags imitating recoil coming straight back prior to shooting.

I generally first try a light trigger hand grip, forend about 1 1/2" inch back from a sling stud on the front bag, squeeze the rear bag for elevation adjustment, breath and squeeze or press the trigger during execution of the shot.

You'll find that different rifles like what they like as far as technique goes. Some like a little more cheek pressure, some like support just forward of the magazine box on the front bag, etc. You just have to experiment a little with each individual rifle. Just this year I learned to support my single shot, break action rifle just forward of the hinge with just very slight cheek pressure to get decent groups.

[runfiverun]

one more thing you can try is using both hands on the grip like a revolver.
my AR type rifle grips respond to this technique quite favorably.
another thing to be aware of is slightly rolling the rifle in the bags, it will throw shots wide of the group.

[popper]

Yes, rolling in the bags doesn't help and recoil torque will mess up a group too. Maybe the reason the 2 handed grip on AR helps R5R. I haven't tried that yet.

[Clinton]

Yes, rolling in the bags doesn't help and recoil torque will mess up a group too. Maybe the reason the 2 handed grip on AR helps R5R. I haven't tried that yet.

I think that's why a loose hold doesn't work well with the rifle. Unless I hold it firmly it will "torque" in the front rest sometimes.

[dtknowles]

It is hard to know where in this thread it throw in my comments so without quoting anyone here are some thoughts.

Yes, you have to go with what the gun likes but it is really not the gun it is the system, gun, shooter, bags, trigger, stock, load, bench. You said .308 loads, are we talking a bolt gun in .308 Win with a sport weight barrel and hunting stock? How hot are your loads. I suspect that the systems recoil is quite stiff, that would make getting small groups shooting free recoil hard and the torque mentioned just adds to the problem. I would go with a firm hold. I know that you changed techniques during this test but do you know how consistent the ammo was to start with? How much of the differences are the bench technique and how much is ammo.


Eyes, open, and follow thru. I think the suggestions are good but I would add don't close your left eye at all but that might require some practice but the practice can be dry fire. It took me a little time but I can now shoot with both eyes open and can change focus from one eye to the other. I use three wind flags and a 40 power scope so none of the flags show thru the scope but I can see them with my left eye and switch back to the target in my right eye without moving my head. Trigger pull and follow thru, even more important with a hunting trigger than with a target trigger but it is always important. I judge my technique by where the sights end up after the shot. The amount of variation is alarming, why don't the sights always end up in the same place if the gun recoiled the same way? I am just not a consistent as I would hope. For me the follow thru is not done until the gun has stopped moving.

I have been shooting a .22 RF target rifle off the bench lately and I expected that it would do best free recoil since the recoil was so light but I have been shooting smaller groups with it with a fairly firm grip. I think this is because the recoil is so light that the bag friction variation is a problem but when I hold it tight and to my shoulder the movement is almost not existent. With more work maybe free recoil would be better if powder the bags and get a better fit to the front bag, it is hard to say.

Cheek pressure, even when I hold the gun tight I try to keep my cheek pressure to a minimum but certainly free recoil, I don't even want my cheek to touch.

Parallax, one of the guns I shoot off the bench a bunch has a scope that does not have a parallax adjustment. I shrunk my groups a little by paying attention to my head position to as to not induce parallax error.

Ammo, cast bullets and fliers or strange groups. It can be so frustrating, my cast bullet groups will often have two or three bullets touching but the other shots a bit away. I have had groups with two shots touching with two more shots touching a half inch away and the fifth shot all by itself. I have tried 10 shot groups and seen them form two nice groups 4 shots here and 6 shots an inch away and it was not like the first 4 were here and the last 6 moved other there, no, the shots randomly picked one group or the other. I don't see this when I shoot jacketed bullets so this is not a technique issue but an ammo/bullet/lube issue.

Tim

[Clinton]

This is the rifle.
124728

VZ24 Mauser. It weighs 11 lbs and has a 2 lb Timney trigger. The loads are not hot at all. 185 gr cast boolit over 21 gr of IMR 4227. I've been thinking the load was the problem but I'm more inclined to think its the shooter. I'll know more after my next trip to the range.

[lightman]

There are a couple of things that I did not see mentioned. Its possible that you missed a condition. Do you use a wind flag? Even a piece of survey ribbon helps. And do you have a concentricity gauge? A bullet seated only slightly crooked can wreck a group.

[JWFilips]

I have found the placement of the forestock position on the bag to be very critical in many of my rifles. I keep notes & find what guns shoot best at what forestock positions on the front rest. Sounds crazy but I have improved all my rifle shooting by doing this. Somewhere a while ago I read that it has something to do with barrel harmonics...I don't know anything about that but it works for me.
If the forestock position in the rest changes after a few shots that is sort of what my targets will look like.
After recoil it is very easy to readjust the rear to get back on target but it is best to make sure the forestock position has not changed!
Just my humble opinion

[Clinton]

There are a couple of things that I did not see mentioned. Its possible that you missed a condition. Do you use a wind flag? Even a piece of survey ribbon helps. And do you have a concentricity gauge? A bullet seated only slightly crooked can wreck a group.

No, wind was next to nothing today and I don't have a concentricity gauge.

[Yodogsandman]

Hey! That's a nice one! My VZ24 is one of my best shooters!

Do you have a jacketed load that shoots good? A baseline average group that the gun has proven to show it's capabilities. Even factory ammo could show if it's the rifle, load or shooter technique. It could rule out your load. It would certainly give you more confidence if you've shot some good groups with it.

Some would call it blasphemy but, I have proven jacketed loads worked up for all my rifles prior to working up cast boolit loads. Then I know what the gun and me as the shooter are capable of.
I'm still working on besting jacketed performance with my cast boolits, though.

I'm inclined to think it might be some part of your loading technique, powder selection or a lube problem. SR4759 with a dacron tuft filler worked best for me in .308 with 180-200gr boolits. Do you use a neck expander die? Or crimp? Filler? A lube proven with rifle loads?

[Clinton]

Yeah I have a jacketed load that works well. I'm hesitant to use it because I just removed all the copper fouling from the barrel before i started working up cast loads. I may load 10 rounds of jacketed just for kicks anyway though.

[country gent]

ANother couple of things to watch for or "yse to your advantage are Parrallax and mirage. Mirage can bend what your seeing and affect groups also. A scope that parrallax isnt set for the range makes head position even more critical. Watching mirage is a learned thing and can be a big help in no wind the mirage boils and affects what you see. under light wind it flows in the direction of the wind and makes reading wind easier once learned. Light wind shows better with mirage than a flag at times. After 10-12 mph mirage gopes flat and isnt as important. Watch it and shoot in the same condition. I also perfer a more erect position on the rest and bags as it makes recoil easier to manage and more consistant. Talc or baby powder on the bags also will help with slide. Theres alot to it and experimenting will show what works and what dosnt. Some dont hold the rifle hardly at all and "pinch the trigger using the back of the trigger gaurd. Some may hold lightly others have a death grip on the rifle. What I ussually do is set up so Im not bending or slouched. Set rifle up solid and on target or slightly high on target with nothing touching it. I lightly grip the [pistol grip with strong hand and with offside hand I grip the rear bag. I sqyeeze the rear bag to make small elevation changes. Always fire on the same breath each time inhale and then exhale a small amount to have enough oxegon for each shot. ( while you may not notice it your eyes will notice quickly when oxegon runs low) Have parrallax set properly and scope focused. A spotting scope can be used to watch target and read mirage set it just slightly out of focus so the miage shows. This works, but being able to read the mirage in the rifle scope is best as it is quicker. Another trick is to put the groups "off" the aiming point. Try bracketing the square in a corner of the crosshairs and the group hitting in the bullseye. This way the bullets impacts arnt changing the aiming points apperance

[tomme boy]

Who put the rifle together? Are they familiar with mausers and what they need to be put together? Is it bedded?

[Clinton]

Who put the rifle together? Are they familiar with mausers and what they need to be put together? Is it bedded?

An old man installed the barrel and hand reamed it for me. I did everything else. Yes it's bedded. It will shoot 1/2 - 3/4" groups with jacketed bullets. There's nothing wrong with the rifle.

[Love Life]

I like the stock

[Clinton]

I like the stock

Yeah I believe it's a Faijen. Been so long since I put it together I really don't remember. I think I bought the barrel and stock together from midway for a couple of hundred. Shame you can't buy those stocks anymore. The action came from an old beat up VZ24 for $75. The man who installed the barrel for me used to build a mauser ever week it seemed. Went over to his shop when he was working on mine. The rafter boards were lined with mausers in boxes. Must have been at least a hundred of them up there. How times have changed.

[Yodogsandman]

An old man installed the barrel and hand reamed it for me. I did everything else. Yes it's bedded. It will shoot 1/2 - 3/4" groups with jacketed bullets. There's nothing wrong with the rifle.

That rules out your bench shooting skills and your rifle.

[Love Life]

Yeah I believe it's a Faijen. Been so long since I put it together I really don't remember. I think I bought the barrel and stock together from midway for a couple of hundred. Shame you can't buy those stocks anymore. The action came from an old beat up VZ24 for $75. The man who installed the barrel for me used to build a mauser ever week it seemed. Went over to his shop when he was working on mine. The rafter boards were lined with mausers in boxes. Must have been at least a hundred of them up there. How times have changed.

I've seen a couple manufactured today that are close to that. I really dig the Hart stocks. Sorry to derail your tread.

[tomme boy]

Just checking, Some don't know that the Mauser barrel is supposed to seat against both the inner and outer ring. Most make them to seat just on the outer ring. The other thing with a Mauser is they take a little getting used to to shoot well like a AR series rifle does. The slow lock time takes some practice to make the rifle shoot to its full potential.

To me it looks like you are having more problems with your parallax not adjusted right and not looking straight into the scope. You need to add a check rest so you are not chicken necking the scope. You need to get straight behind it. Then learn to adjust and check the parallax. Then start checking your groups.

[MattOrgan]

Clinton,

Some good advice, but except for my 6mm PPC set up specifically for benchrest shooting with a front rest and rear bag set up for that rifle I find "free recoil" technique impractical. It also requires a trigger that has a let off measured in ounces. Since you are capable of 1/2 minute groups with the rifle I'd say your technique with the high velocity jacket loads is better than average.

The issue I've had to over come with low velocity cast bullet loads and .22 LR from the bench comes down to not muscling the rifle and follow through. Not muscling involves having the reticle on target in while you are in your shooting position closing your eyes and exhaling. We you open your eyes the reticle should not have moved. I've heard this called a "natural point of aim." If you are muscling as soon as you decide to fire the rifle will move trying to revert to the natural point of aim. The other issue is follow through, not moving or changing anything for a beat or a count after the shot is fired. The reason for both of these is the longer bullet bore time with low velocity bullets. Any movement with the rifle can cause point of impact changes, all the greater with a longer time the bullet is in the bore the greater the shot dispersion will be for any given movement. I've always found one of the toughest rifles to shoot good groups with at 100 yards is a 22 RF.

Another thing I've found very helpful is not to shift to look through my spotting scope in the middle of a group. Just adds another change in a string of shots. I've forgotten my spotting scope shooting iron sighted or aperture sights and gone to check after my first five shots. Upon returning to the bench and completing my 10 shot group only to find two nice 5 shot groups, slightly separated. Good bench shooting is a skill that requires a lot of practice and consistent technique.

[Clinton]

Another thing I've found very helpful is not to shift to look through my spotting scope in the middle of a group. Just adds another change in a string of shots. I've forgotten my spotting scope shooting iron sighted or aperture sights and gone to check after my first five shots. Upon returning to the bench and completing my 10 shot group only to find two nice 5 shot groups, slightly separated. Good bench shooting is a skill that requires a lot of practice and consistent technique.

Yeah that could be a thing too. In order to keep the barrel somewhat cool, I've been waiting 60 seconds in between shots. I was thinking it might be better to fire 5 shots and then let the barrel cool.

[Love Life]

Yeah that could be a thing too. In order to keep the barrel somewhat cool, I've been waiting 60 seconds in between shots. I was thinking it might be better to fire 5 shots and then let the barrel cool.

That might be a way to go, but it depends how fast you fire and if your barrel will stay where it is supposed to be as it heats up. Think "walking" as the barrel heats up.

When I throw down groups, I don't leave the scope, rifle, position until the groups is done. I may close my eyes on occasion just to give them a break, but I stay on the gun.

Shooting through the soup can open up groups, inconsistent cheekweld, change of grips, poor trigger control, poor breathing, poor follow through, inconsistent neck tension, caddywompus loads, etc.

Also, wind flags are a must and I used them when I can.

When I shoot from a bench, I set up behind the rifle to where it recoils straight back. After recoil I slide forward to the stop. While this is happening I don't leave the rifle and my face stays on the stock.

Breath in, out, in, out, in between breaths you will have your respiratory pause. That is when I want to pull the trigger. I also have my scope set to impact 1/2 inch to left of the bull/diamond so I don't destroy my aiming point.

Consistency is the name of the game from the reloading bench all the way to the shooting bench.

I still really dig that stock!!

[barrabruce]

don't know nuthin but I give up on benchrest shooting.
I mean that I hold my gun the same way as I would for hunting.
I personally use a couple of towles scruched up to steady my front arm and trigger arm.
I only have sporting thin stocks and get getter groups that way.
If I sight my gun in using bags etc ..then if I go hunting my poi changes.
I get tighter and better groups this way with cast bullets.
Not saying anything is wrong with bags etc...just a thought especially with the double in the barrel time for a 308. 2600fps to 1600 fps
Your load could be all wrong and harmonics out for your barrel.

[MT Chambers]

Did you:
Weigh and segregate your bullets?
Weigh each powder charge?
Do all you could to reduce run-out?
Do anything to make neck tension consistent?
Did you try diff. bullet designs to see which showed the most promise, before trying diff. powders/charges?
These are what I always work on when trying for small groups with cast bullets from very capable rifles.

[Doc Highwall]

Here are a few articles that may help you out with your shooting.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/how-to-succeed-at-club-matches/

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/optimize-your-rifle-position-on-rests/

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/bugholes-from-bipod/

[M-Tecs]

Here are a few articles that may help you out with your shooting.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/how-to-succeed-at-club-matches/

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/optimize-your-rifle-position-on-rests/

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/bugholes-from-bipod/


Thanks for the great links

[JWFilips]

Here are a few articles that may help you out with your shooting.


http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/optimize-your-rifle-position-on-rests/



This is what I was alluding to a few post back. I figured this out way back in the 80's when I was shooting Heavy Benchrest Comp.
I almost totally forgot about it as of a few years ago when I got back to shooting benchrest with cast boolits! What is learned in j-bullets helps in Cast Boolits. Forearm position is important to figure out!

[mizzouri1]

Here are a few articles that may help you out with your shooting.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/how-to-succeed-at-club-matches/

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/optimize-your-rifle-position-on-rests/

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/bugholes-from-bipod/

wow, lots of good info ^

[robg]

cast boolits are going slower so harmonics are different .also make sure swivel studs are not effecting movement during recoil.some rifles like to be held tight others dont ,just like women there contrary

[ubetcha]

I'm not a bench rest shooter,but one thing I have noticed is not to wrap your hand around the grip. If you close the bolt on an empty chamber and watch your sights or cross hairs on the target, you will see them move off of the point of aim when you slowing squeeze the trigger. What I do is either lay my hand along the side of the stock or "pinch " the trigger with my index finger on the trigger and my thumb on the outside back of the trigger guard. Either way, the squeezing motion of your hand should not move the rifle. Very little if any. Has made a difference for me

[Doc Highwall]

124875Here is a picture that says a thousand words about eliminating the horizontal spread in your shooting. Most articles talk about vertical spread like the ones I posted previously.


What is VERY IMPORTANT is that the rear bag is aligned with the target during the recoil of the rifle. If the front of the bag is turned to the right it causes the butt stock to go to the left, and the barrel to go to the right throwing the bullet to the right out of the group.


Save a copy of this picture and a link to the articles for future reference not just for yourself but others.