30 carbine Blackhawk and 32-20 brass

[rockrat]

Finally got around to getting out my old beat up 30 carbine blackhawk after reading about using 32-20 brass. Got some new WW 32-20 brass and trimmed it to fit and loaded up rounds with 8.5 gr 2400 and the 314008 plain base and gas check versions, some 311440 boolits and a 150gr plain base Lee GB boolit with 3 crimp grooves and a 135gr SWC gc. All sized .311". Thought it would be too big for the chamber mouth @.3085, but worked well. Didn't have my crony, so no velocities.

Only drawback was gun shoots about 5" high. First group with the 135 swc wasn't too great, about 2" @50 feet(I was shooting indoors). Rims kind of drug on the recoil shield as really needed to seat the SWC a bit deeper. Next tried the 150gr, but half of them went in the target sideways, in the 135gr swc group (top left). Shot the 150's again at the top right target, same result as the first. Then shot the 314008 pb at the bottom right target. Decent group. Next was the 314008 gc at the far left of the bottom left section of the target. Little better. Last group was was the 311440, which was just to the right of the 314008gc group. Not too shabby.

All in all, got a few decent groups, considering my aging eyes. Seems like pleasant loads, especially compared to 30 carbine ammo.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d149/Bigdog337/3220carbineblackhawk001_zps9b2db80f.jpg (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/Bigdog337/media/3220carbineblackhawk001_zps9b2db80f.jpg.html)

[Scharfschuetze]

Interesting! If I'd have know you could do that back in 1983 or so I would have bought a Blackhawk in 30 Carbine when I saw one at the LGS.

[wrench man]

So do you have to do something to the rim or will your cylinder accept the rimmed shell??, I tried a 25-20 case in mine to see and there is no way in %&*# the cylinder will turn?

[too many things]

WHY again WHY ???? the 30cal brass works WHY ??? would anyone use something is not made for the gun WHY??

[Bullshop Junior]

WHY again WHY ???? the 30cal brass works WHY ??? would anyone use something is not made for the gun WHY??
It's what we do here.

[9.3X62AL]

WHY again WHY ???? the 30cal brass works WHY ??? would anyone use something is not made for the gun WHY??

Same reason people climb mountains.....because it's there.

A few folks have described iffy ignition in 30 Carbine Blackhawks using 30 Carbine ammo, more often reloaded 30 Carbine ammo. One pass through a 30 Carbine sizer die should press out any shoulder left on the 32-20 case, and some (not all) 32-20 cases might require a trim to fit in the chambers. The definite rim on 32-20 cases assists in assuring positive ignition to chambered cartridge. That is the usual allegation, anyway; both of my 30 C BHs lit/light off 30 Carbine reloads quite reliably, so I haven't tried the regimen.

[Scharfschuetze]

My thinking is that with the rimmed round and its positive head space control, you could actually put a crimp on your boolit. While taper crimps work, I prefer a roll crimp and a rimmed case with revolver ammo and thus I passed on the 30 Carbine revolver. Well, if I ever see another one I'll now be tempted to buy it.

[Mohillbilly]

My take is this is an improvement on carbine brass .I am not as concerned about having short trimmed brass not going bang for the range . I do have a good supply or carbine brass, some of it is pick ups , some were give away included in other deals . I am slowly weeding those trimmed shorts out by not picking them up again when shot by my rifle . I will get more 32-20 for my revolver use exclusively . In the mean time I shoot all carbine brass in the revolver , cull out the ftf and shoot those in my rifle and leave lay . Eventually I can shoot reformed 32-20 and not be as concerned on the trim length , and can even roll crimp if wanted . I will have custom , made to fit ,my gun brass . New carbine brass varies in length , batch to batch , and by manufacture . I have yet to find any of those ftf unless there is no/blocked flash hole , or bad primer . I think auto-rim . The now orphaned 9 mm Fed is another one , by sizing 38 in a 9 mm die and trim to length . I also am looking to make 10 mm auto rim for a buckeye .

[leftiye]

I would guess that if your .30 carbine brass is the correct maximum length, that ignition would be fine. 30 carbine brass is thicker (stronger) and you shouldn't have to crimp (nor want to) as recoil is low and a crimp would impact the ignition issue. My .30 Blackhawk has never shown me any issues.

[too many things]

I have shot well over 5000 in my Blackhawk and have never had a mis fire that wasn't my fault {no powder} I don't check the length and do use a light crimp I also don't use rifle primers. I use mag small pistol

[cbrick]

WHY again WHY ???? the 30cal brass works WHY ??? would anyone use something is not made for the gun WHY??

A better question is . . . Why not? The 223 brass I stick in my 7TCU wasn't made for the 7TCU either but I use it anyway.


I have shot well over 5000 in my Blackhawk and have never had a mis fire that wasn't my fault {no powder} I don't check the length and do use a light crimp I also don't use rifle primers. I use mag small pistol

I use WSR primers in mine, I also use 32-20 brass in mine. Because of misfires? Nope, never had a misfire with this revolver.

So why 32-20 brass?

1> Because when I got the revolver 30 Carbine brass was unobtanium and 32-20 brass was obtanium! 2> Because I'm lazy enough to not want to keep brass trimmed to a specific length for a rimless round for a plinking cartridge! 3> Because it gives me a rimmed cartridge instead of a rimless cartridge 4> Because it works quite well with my reduced loads! 5> Because there is no legitimate reason not to! 6> Because I like it!

Does this answer . . . WHY again WHY ????

Rick

[lbaize3]

I have been shooting 32-20 ammo in my 30 Carbine Blackhawk for years. Don't do anything special, just drop in a 32-20 cartridge loaded with .314 dia. 115 gr. lead gas checked boolit, pushed with 3.9 grains of Red Dot. It is wonderfully accurate, does not lead and I reload the brass with 32-20 dies...

I only have 1000 30 carbine cases on had. I have over 6,000 cases for 32-20, including another box of 1000 Starline cases sitting in a box under my loading bench. I load the 30 carbine with another 115 grain .309 dia gas checked boolit, but I load my carbine somewhat hot. My 32-20 pistols do not have the same long barrel that the 30 carbine Blackhawk has and I do enjoy shooting the lighter loaded 32-20 in the pistol.

[Twmaster]

This is interesting. I've been looking at new Blackhawks in 30 Carbine, but, I already load for and have plenty of 32-20 brass/pills etc.

Got a link to this article on using these in the 30 BH?

ETA: Now I just realized.... This is the 7.62 Nagant Revolver thing too! Using 32-20 to repilcate that cartridge....

[leftiye]

Except the Nagant doesn't have chamber throats.

[clum553946]

Isn't 32-20 brass harder to find & more expensive than 30 carbine brass?

[FLHTC]

It only works in the new models. The old models don't have the room to accept the rim thickness. I much prefer the rimmed cases in a Blackhawks and was using 32-20 cases many moons ago. The 30 carbine sizer works well on them.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I've shot regular 30 carbine cases through my Ruger without any problems. Also have used 32-20 cases without probs. The carbine cases need a slight taper crimp whereas the 32-20's use a slight roll crimp. The 32-20's need to be trimmed slightly, but the advantage of using them is that the rim keeps the round from going too far. Accuracy-wise for me they both do well. LLS

[DuckHunterJon]

It only works in the new models. The old models don't have the room to accept the rim thickness. I much prefer the rimmed cases in a Blackhawks and was using 32-20 cases many moons ago. The 30 carbine sizer works well on them.
Any chance this could be backwards? I have a new model in 30 carb and 32-20. I just tried a new Rem 32-20 round in the 30, and it does not clear. Its fine until the round gets to about the 10 o'clock position, then the rim runs out of clearance. Just curious as I have both guns, and don't really need to switch them up. Thanks!

[Nueces]

I just tried a new 32-20 round in my early old model Ruger (SN 74xx) and it would not go past the loading gate. Seems only the new models can sometimes accept 32-20s.

[Poygan]

I have a new model Blackhawk. Initially had a problem with reloaded carbine brass binding on the recoil shield and acquired some .32-20 brass. That generally worked better except for some R-P brass which had too thick a base and would bind on the recoil shield. I found that trimming the carbine brass solved the problem and have since stopped using the .32-20 brass.

[DuckHunterJon]

I have a new model Blackhawk. Initially had a problem with reloaded carbine brass binding on the recoil shield and acquired some .32-20 brass. That generally worked better except for some R-P brass which had too thick a base and would bind on the recoil shield. I found that trimming the carbine brass solved the problem and have since stopped using the .32-20 brass.
Got it, that's probably what I'm seeing, as it's Rem brass I tried. Thanks.

[MarkP]

I have a New model 30 Carb BH (circa 1989) and 32-20 brass rubs on the recoil shield as well with WW brass. I measured the rim thicknesses that were binding, they were within SAAMI rim thickness tolerance.


I have an Auto Mag III that had ignition issues when it was new; sent it back in Irwindale Arms it came back with a different slide. The original firing pin was mushrooming from hammer strikes after only 100 rounds or so.

[jonp]

WHY again WHY ???? the 30cal brass works WHY ??? would anyone use something is not made for the gun WHY??

Inquiring minds want to know how to get around not having something and still being able to keep going by substituting something else. Endless fiddling with things is a hobby

[TaylorS]

So I've been reading this thread has anyone tried the 32-20 cases in a actual carbine? Step dad has one and if I could get some loading done on it its be fun to shoot more.

[lbaize3]

TaylorS, the carbine rifle chamber is a different situation than the Blackhawk revolver. The carbine has a chamber that will allow only 30 carbine brass to be used (or some other rimless type of brass....). The revolver does not have a recessed chamber that totally encloses the cartridge, thus allowing the rimmed 32-20 brass to be used.

[Salmoneye]

It's what we do here.

*golf applause*

[FLHTC]

Isn't 32-20 brass harder to find & more expensive than 30 carbine brass?
Back when I tried it, nothing was really in short supply. I have over a thousand of each, 25 -20 and 32-20 but when I bought my 327, the carbine went to gunbroker.

[Thomas Traddles]

Well, I don't know much about substituting 32-20 brass in 30 carbine revolvers, but I recall running across a column by Skeeter Skelton who replied to someone complaining about the noise and flash of the 30 carbine. He suggested that the gentleman try loading his carbine brass with 32-20 powder loads. He thought they would be accurate and pleasant rounds to shoot in the BH 30 revolver. I don't recall which load he suggested. Since I shoot neither of the cartridges, I did not pay too much attention to the suggested load.

[9.3X62AL]

Since when is noise and flash "unpleasant"? (J/K)

[cbrick]

Since when is noise and flash "unpleasant"? (J/K)

Some people just don't appreciate music. :mrgreen:

Rick

[Thomas Traddles]

Since when is noise and flash "unpleasant"? (J/K)

:-P Search me! I was just reiterating what a gentleman said to Mr. Skelton.

[rockrat]

Or when you are shooting a 44/284 round out of an XP100 w/13.5" barrel w/muzzle brake. Loaded with 65 gr H335 and a 240gr bullet it has a muzzle flash in the evening shaped like a coke bottle 6' long. Nobody wants to be near you for some reason, when you touch it off.:twisted:

[dtknowles]

Or when you are shooting a 44/284 round out of an XP100 w/13.5" barrel w/muzzle brake. Loaded with 65 gr H335 and a 240gr bullet it has a muzzle flash in the evening shaped like a coke bottle 6' long. Nobody wants to be near you for some reason, when you touch it off.:twisted:

Yeah, people can put their muzzlebreaks where the sun don't shine. Someone shooting with one next to me on the range will cause me to stop and take a break until they are done.

Tim

[rintinglen]

You can tell the guys who like the loud bangs and big flashes--but you have to speak loud.

[Tackleberry41]

Maybe the issues with the revolvers taking or not taking the 32-20 cases is just the rim thickness. Its an issue w the Nagant revolvers, some brands are fine others will bind up.

[wrench man]

You can tell the guys who like the loud bangs and big flashes--but you have to speak loud.

WHAT!??[smilie=1:
The way everyone talks about the 30 Carbine in the Blackhawk I was expecting a BIG BOOM, it has nothing on the 327 Federal or 357 Mag, I didn't take my 44 Mag to compare it to?

[leftiye]

You said that wrong. The carbine round was around a looong time before the .327, and the 327 has nothing on the .30 carbine. The whole gob of stuff about .32 calibers boils down to exactly this. Mitigated only by the fact that maximum performance available does mega damage to your game. The .32 H&R is really the best small game cartridge (equals 32-20 performance, but the 32-20 also needs to be moderately loaded) all around. 357s are not to be compared to .32s, it amounts to cheating (apples and oranges you know). Ditto 44s.

[9.3X62AL]

Hear hear. The 32 Magnum IS a great small gamer. It need not be maxed out to do this, either--just prompt an RCBS 32-98-SWC to 900-950 FPS, and the caliber's efficiency in this venue will shine. Table fare won't be shredded, but will be anchored humanely with far better results than 22 LR.

[corsair_001]

I know this thread is a bit old, but thought I'd see if anything new had developed. I've wanted a 30 Carbine RBH for years and after reading (here on Cast Boolits) about firing 32-20 in the RBH 30 Carbine I took the plunge. I enjoyed the 30 Carbine heat and flame produced, and the noise, it was a blast to shoot. Also took a box of 32-20 along for fun. 32-20 ran perfect, no issues. So now I intend to reload for them both with cast bullets. For those of you who have done this, did you just use the 30 carbine dies on the 32-20 cases? Or did you use 32-20 dies? Finishing up some rifle loads right now, so am in the process of accumulating components for 30 Carb / 32-20. Already reload for my 30 carbine rifle so dies and such are ready. Any thoughts on bullets and loads is appreciated.

[Ickisrulz]

I know this thread is a bit old, but thought I'd see if anything new had developed. I've wanted a 30 Carbine RBH for years and after reading (here on Cast Boolits) about firing 32-20 in the RBH 30 Carbine I took the plunge. I enjoyed the 30 Carbine heat and flame produced, and the noise, it was a blast to shoot. Also took a box of 32-20 along for fun. 32-20 ran perfect, no issues. So now I intend to reload for them both with cast bullets. For those of you who have done this, did you just use the 30 carbine dies on the 32-20 cases? Or did you use 32-20 dies? Finishing up some rifle loads right now, so am in the process of accumulating components for 30 Carb / 32-20. Already reload for my 30 carbine rifle so dies and such are ready. Any thoughts on bullets and loads is appreciated.

I use Starline 32-20 brass. My 30 Carbine dies will not size the 32-20 brass enough to hold a bullet. I have to use a 32-20 sizing die. 32-20 brass doesn't last too long when shot in a 30 Carbine.

I also have Starline 30 Carbine brass that I have used 10+ times and have no issues with head spacing (never trimmed). Once my 32-20 brass is gone I will only use the 30 Carbine brass.

[9.3X62AL]

I still haven't tried the 32/20 brass in my 30 Carbine BH. 30 Carbine ammo runs fine, so if it ain't broke I don't try fixing it.

[Outpost75]

Firing a .30 carbine Blackhawk with “full charge” loads is unpleasant without adequate ear protection. Lake City 1944 Ball ammo gave 1586 fps from my 7-1/2” Blackhawk, versus 1981 fps from a WW2-era Inland US Carbine.

Cast bullet loads in my Ruger, using minimum charges which reliably cycle the M1 Carbine, gave about 1500 fps. When fired from the M1 carbine they approximate full charge .32-20 loads suitable for the Winchester 1892, giving 1600-1700 fps and better accuracy than Ball ammo. I standardized on 7.4 grains of Olin Auto Comp, measured with the RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #9. This tames muzzle blast in the Ruger to moderate levels, functions the carbine reliably, gives excellent accuracy, and drops the empty brass from the carbine at your feet. Accuracy is good up to 1500 fps in the Ruger revolver without leading. It’s easy to ring a 12” gong at 100 yards with the Ruger from a standing 2-handed position. The best cast loads from the Inland carbine produce ten-shot sandbagged groups at 100 yards of 3-4 inches with iron sights, versus 5-6 inches for WCC44 and LC44 Ball ammo. My best cast bullet loads use Accurate 31-100T cast 15 BHN and sized .311” with Lee Liquid Alox.

In .32-20 brass I load 4.5 grains of AutoComp with the same bullet for use in my 1920 Savage sporter and 1924 Colt Police Positive. I don't load any .32-20 rounds heavier than that, so that I can't make the mistake of inadvertently putting a hot load in the Colt. When fired in the .30 Carbine Ruger my .32-20 loads give about 1000 fps from the 7-1/2" barrel and are effective on small game, so that you can "eat right up to the bullet hole," as well as being accurate and pleasant to shoot.

New Starline .32-20 brass is held within 1.280- 1.285 inches, the same as their .30 Carbine brass. So I use the brass type for load identification. I do not assemble any "full charge" loads in .32-20 brass. I use .32-20 brass to identify low-power small game loads. The .30 Carbine brass is used only for high velocity "Ruger-and-M1 Carbine Only" varmint loads. All loads assembled in .32-20 brass are at appropriate levels which are safe in old revolvers. This is a fail-safe to prevent the possibility of getting a "hot Ruger load” into older gun. I do use WSR small rifle primers in .30 carbine brass, but Remington 1-/2 small pistol primers in .32-20 brass.

Cylinder throats of some Ruger .30 Carbine revolvers may be found as tight as .307-.308” diameter. Cast bullet diameter is limited by chamber and brass dimensions to no more than .310” if using .30 Carbine brass. Some users hone their .30 Carbine cylinder throats to .312,” which enables using the same bullets as for the .32 H&R Magnum or .327 Federal. Starline .32-20 brass is thinner walled than .30 Carbine brass, which provides adequate neck release clearance for the larger bullet diameter. The New Model Blackhawk .30 Carbine cylinder does not have recessed case heads as did earlier guns. There is adequate head clearance for Starline .32-20 brass and this adaptation works very well.

My Ruger Blackhawk revolver dates from 1977 and came with .310 cylinder throats from the factory. I find this ideal. Cast bullets sized .310" which “fit” give excellent accuracy. While .310 cylinder throats are not “optimum” for the .307-.308 jacketed bullets loaded in factory FMJ or soft point .30 carbine ammunition, my revolver is still more accurate than my WW2 GI carbine!

While my favorite 7.4 grains of AutoComp in .30 Carbine brass doesn’t give the highest velocity when fired in the M1 carbine, it equals the velocity of GI ammunition fired from the Ruger revolver and does so with less muzzle flash and blast, and better accuracy using less powder.

The 4.5 grain charge of AutoComp in .32-20 brass is a near factory-duplication load for the pre-WW2 Remington-UMC Kleanbore "Dogbone" logo ammo, giving 900 fps from my 1924 Colt 5" Police Positive with 0.005" cylinder gap. If your older Colt or S&W .32-20 revolver has large cylinder throats which require a .314" bullet, Accurate 31-105T is the correct answer, but in loading .32-20 for the Ruger .310" is the maximum useable bullet diameter.

225773225774225778

[Honestly Evil]

If I run across so much 30 carbine and 327 brass, what is the point of going through the brain damage of trying to reform a 32-20? Thats one of the more popular specialty cases i am asked about.

How close is the 32-20 case to the 30 car after necking it down?

[9.3X62AL]

Dimensionally, the exterior specs are pretty close. It is no state secret that the 30 Carbine was derived from the 32/20 HV. The cases differ structurally as described by Oupost75 above.

One of the "draws" to using 32/20 brass in the 30 Carbine Blackhawks was that a lot of carbine-fired brass would not resize sufficiently in reloading die sets (read that--RCBS tungsten-carbide 30 Carbine die sets) to fit in the rather skinny chambers found in Ruger BHs in 30 Carbine. My die set is an RCBS steel-sizer set, and it sized brass fired in my Rock-Ola M1 and Marlin 62 enough to fit in my BHs. I suspect that the thinner 32/20 brass sizes better in some dies and gets along with the BH chambers better for this reason.

[El Bibliotecario]

In 1969 I bought a .30 carbine Blackhawk. Carbine brass had to be trimmed after virtually every handloading or else the cases protruded far enough from the chambers to hang up the cylinder. The weapon was very accurate, but for practical use a .357 revolver was superior. I sold the .30 Blackhawk...

...and twenty five years later bought another, thinking I might have learned something in the intervening time. Since I have difficulty cocking a Blackhawk with one hand I had the new .30 reconfigured to the Bisley pattern. I began reloading 32-20 cases with 11.0 grains 2400 and wheel weight 115 grain. 308 gas check Lee bullets. I no longer have to constantly trim the cases, and I resized the 32 20 cases in a .30 carbine die, which necessitated adding a step to the reloading process to neck down the 32 20 cases to accept the .308 bullet. I haven't shot them enough to obtain conclusive results, but sense this shortens case life, causing neck splits. I am too lazy to anneal them.

If I were to do this over again:

(1) I wouldn't do it.
(2) But since I already ignored (1), before I did the Bisley conversion I would try installing a lower Super Blackhawk hammer.
(2) Having satisfied an irrational interest in this cartridge/weapon combination, I would buy a long barreled Single 7 in .327.

[Pressman]

Your post was great and informative. As a former owner of one of these guns your experience was interesting to read, especially the Bisley conversion. I have two that have been converted to Bisley hammer and trigger leaving the Blackhawk grip that I enjoy very much.
I restored your post and removed the offending words.

[pworley1]

Interesting discussion. My 30 carbine Blackhawk has never given a problem with 30 carbine loads.