Range report

[Exal]

Well after spending a good 4 1/2 hours at the range today I finally got my load work up's shot. I was shooting a 45-70 csharps, with the lyman 537 grain postell. My brass is starline, and my primers we're win lrp. The reason for the load work up was the new order of old enynsford 2f powder I got a while back. I loaded up rounds in 2 grain increments with 59 grains of powder (which is nearly no compression) to 73 grains of powder which was 1/3 of an inch of compression (all grains are by weight) and shot them in groups of six.
The first target looked like this (sorry about the orientation)
124543
The average velocity was 1116.3 ft/s with a sd of 8.1.

the second with 61 grains
124544
The avg vel here was 1140.8 with sd of 8.2.

im going skip 63 and 65 grains because they weren't good so here is 67 grains
124545
Avg vel is 1218.0 with sd of 11.4

and finally 69 grains
124546
Avg vel was 1194.2 with sd of 9.0
im ging to skip 71 and 73 as well if you want to see the just ask and I'll post them.

ok so after all of that my question to Ya'll is which load would Ya'll stick with or give a chance. I'm probably going to load up some more rounds later of these four and see what I get then, but from this what do yall think. Another thing I noticed from the chronigraph was that from 59 to 67 grains the velocity steadly came up but after 67 it started to decline till 71 grains then the velocity came back up at 73 grains, Hopefully that made since. To me this seems odd I would have thought it would have steadly climbed the more powder I put in, only thing I can think of is that the powder liked the conpression up until 67 grains then didn't like it at 69 and 71 but liked it again at 73.

Ps. Don't mind a couple of the targets missing one round, the first one was my spotter to see where I was and the others I jerked on! And to keep the battle the same every time I wiped the bore clean before each set and blow tubed 5 breaths between each shot.

[triggerhappy243]

not to sound like a butt head, but I would shoot this set all over again to see if each target group from corresponding powder charges can be duplicated. if groups 1 and 3 look the same, I would think that the rifle likes those loads the best.

[John Boy]

Exal, presume the targets were shot at 100 yds?
Use the same powder charges and shoot 200 & 300yd targets. These distances will separate "the boys from the men"
Good Luck

[Chill Wills]

You have basically done a ladder test of sorts. There is more than one spot in this test that will give good accuracy. Test around the better looking load levels and refine. Your off to a good start. The ones that show the least vertical are what you should be looking for.
Is this a 100y test?
try 200y or 300y with the better loads. Work on your trigger let off so you do not have as much shooter error (false read) in the test.

[Chill Wills]

I see I posted at the same time as #2 and#3
Great minds think alike!

[Exal]

@Trigger happy it's all good I was planning on shooting them again anyways. I'm just trying to get other people's opionons on the ground and sd numbers. I'm still pretty new to this so I need all the advice I can get.
@john boy yes sorry they were shot at 100 yds. Haha alright sounds good I'll try it thanks.

[Don McDowell]

I would think to work around 68 and 69 grs. I would also either wipe or blowtube, and for sure not blowtube after wiping the bore clean.
Then follow the suggestions from Chill Wills to the "t", and see what more info you can drag out of him.

[Exal]

Oh ok I was thinking that there would be a stand out load so that makes more since. I agree I do need to work on my trigger control a little bit more, but I guess that just comes with practice.

[country gent]

Retest the 67 and 69 grn loads and maybe throw in the mid point at 68 grns and 70grns for grins and giggles. Test at longest range available to you. Then maybe experiment with diffrent primers if available in your area. The groups for67 and 69 grns both are nice and tight but the mid points may also be just a little better still.

[Exal]

@country gent, ok I'll give it a try, I have up to 300 yards on paper and 500 on steel so ill give the 300 a shot and see what happens there. Thanks everyone for the advice. But I'm still wondering about the velocity situation! Lol.

[triggerhappy243]

I would say one step at a time. Velocity means nothing if you cannot hit what you are aiming at.

[Exal]

Haha ya I'm not really worried about the actuall velocity I'm just wondering why the velocities increased to a certain point then started to decrease then increased again. It just seems a little strange to me.

[Don McDowell]

Unless you're doing something like prepping rounds for creedmoor matches where the range has velocity requirements I wouldn't spend much time worrying about velocity. But one thing you might notice is with your 69 gr load, while the velocity is somewhat lower, it's spread also went down from the faster 67gr. load, and your verticle stringing almost disappeared.

[triggerhappy243]

Maybe barrel harmonics... Or at some point you experienced a point of diminished returns?

[Exal]

O ok I see what yall are saying. Ya the group did get a little tighter. One other thing is that all the targets are rotated to the left 90* my phone would not allow me to post them how they were supposed to be so all the verticle stinging is actually gonzo talk stringing and visa versa.

[Don McDowell]

Hmm so what we see as vert is actually horizontal... I'ld run 10 each at 67,68 and 69.

[freedom475]

Nice shooting!! I love seeing and reading about what others are doing with the Olde Eynsford powder.

68gr was my sweet-spot..here she is at 300yards
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=96003&d=1391833134

[Gunlaker]

It looks like your probably very close to where you need to be. Like everyone said, try further out if you can.

With respect to SD, I would do ten shot groups to get a better feeling for where you are really at. Fouling management is a big part of getting low velocity SD's. I'm a wiper not a blower, but I believe that tuning my fouling control is a big part of it, and that will translate to a noticeable improvement in vertical dispersion at 500m.

For whatever reason my .45-70's all seem to be happy with charges near 69gr.

Chris.

[Exal]

@freedom475, that's is a very nice group for that distance! I'm not sure if I could duplicate it, lol. The old e seems like a pretty good powder, at least better than the goex I was using before. I seem to have about the same set up *** you except for a slightly heavier bullet, so maybe I will be able to get a group something like that.
@gunlaker, I didn't think about the fouling affecting the sd numbers that is a very good point, I'll try to be more consistent with my blow tube next time.

[Gunlaker]

Exal, here is what I would do with the chronograph. Run a few ten shot groups over it and write down the velocity of each shot. Have a look at the first few shots in the string and see how they compare to the subsequent ones. Keep an eye on the velocity vs how many breaths you use too. I'm guessing that you'll see the velocity fluctuate for the first two or three shots then it will get more consistent as the bore condition becomes constant. If you start to foul out you'll see it in the chrony numbers too.

If you plan on shooting silhouette, try duplicating match conditions and see what the velocity looks like after you start your second "string" with the rifle sitting in the hot sun for several minutes.

I'm a wiper these days and I pretty much always see a significantly higher velocity on the first shot but it settles down very quickly.

Dan T wrote some articles on the BPCR.net site regarding this sort of thing. They are still there if you did for them. (I'll see if I can post a link). I tried the same and noticed immediately that the velocity varies with bore condition. One of my C. Sharps rifles has a significantly better velocity SD when wiping with two patches rather than one for instance. It's very interesting stuff, to me at least :-)

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Exal, here is a link to Dan's article on BPCR.net. I hope that you can read it as many have trouble with that site.

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Dan_Theodore-Clean_Rifle_%20and_6th_Shot_Effects-All_three_parts.htm

Chris.

[Boz330]

68gr of OE with the Lyman Postel was the sweet spot in my 45-70, but 73gr also shoots very well and I use that for 1000-1200yrd matches. I figured out a long time ago that one good group isn't a trend. I usually start with 5 shot groups and 2gr increments and then 1gr increments either side of my promising groups and 10 shot groups. I normally like 300yd since I have that at the farm, but if I'm pressed for time I'll shoot 125yd since I also have that distance. I trust the 300yd distance more though for final results.
I go for the group before I worry about the velocity. Unless you are shooting beyond 600yd it probably doesn't make a lot of difference.

Bob

[Lead pot]

Working up ladder loads starting with zero compression you will find a load pretty fast that you can work on to improve it. Primer, wad stack and a few other small changes one at a time.
But trigger control is the make or break thing working loads up.
I have a problem with what I call fat fingering if I don't keep my mind on what I'm doing. Here is an example of what I call fat fingering. I was pretty fortunate finding a load for the new bullet mould that casts a bullet like Brent Danielson's PP prolate that he shoots so well in his .45-70.
This rifle I shot these test loads in has never shot well for me and it more or less filled my drawer with moulds.
If you look at these groups I shot at 200 yards with a MVA scope on this rifle with out making sight changes you can see a pattern of fat fingering with the shot off at 10 O-Clock. This is normal for me when I loose concentration http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_IMG_1551_zpsd44873bd.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_1551_zpsd44873bd.jpg.html) I usually get two tight sometimes three groups with a ladder group and you can see this in your test groups also that can be tightened up a lot more with a good control of your rifle or slight changes with the load.
When I find a promising load I go back and shoot several ten shot groups at 200 yards (200 is the longest range I have or I would use a longer one) to verify it to see if it holds up. I shoot ten and clean the barrel. Here I shot 35 rounds 15 on the center target and I also made one sight change.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_c04b16da-e38f-4732-aba7-4a8b9efc2b18_zps4bb2e108.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/c04b16da-e38f-4732-aba7-4a8b9efc2b18_zps4bb2e108.jpg.html)
These black powder rifles will shoot and shoot well PP or GG. It just takes a little work getting to do what you want.

[Exal]

Thanks for the link gunlaker, it was a good but long read, it also taught me a few more things that I didn't know so I always like that. Well it seems everyone has had good luck around the 67 to 69 grain marks so I guess that is what I'm going to load up next and see what happens. Hopefully when I try to shoot at 300 I'll be able to see the target!
@leadpot I think I have the same problem, I think it is mainly me anticipating the recoil so I'm either "fat fingering" or I'm just jumping right before the shot.

[Lead pot]

Thanks for the link gunlaker, it was a good but long read, it also taught me a few more things that I didn't know so I always like that. Well it seems everyone has had good luck around the 67 to 69 grain marks so I guess that is what I'm going to load up next and see what happens. Hopefully when I try to shoot at 300 I'll be able to see the target!
@leadpot I think I have the same problem, I think it is mainly me anticipating the recoil so I'm either "fat fingering" or I'm just jumping right before the shot.

:) Exal I think a lot of us have this problem but wont admit it :) Just watch when someone forgets to draw the hammer back sets the trigger and CLICK :) some just about fall on their face :)