Finnish 91/30 Mosin Nagant - Did my friend get hosed?

[Throwback]

Reaching out to you who are Mosin Nagant experts. A friend who likes guns but is not especially knowledgeable traded a Czech 91/38 and a Hungarian M44, both minty, for a Finnish 91/30. The other fellow, a friend of his, guaranteed the latter to be worth $400. As Adam was into the two rifles for only $300, he relented. He is well aware that the value of his two rifles is greater than that on the market but he is not the sort to get worked up over a small difference.

The Finnish rifle started life as a Tula 1935. Barrel and hex receiver are matched. The bolt and magazine body came from other rifles and show evidence of harder use though both are perfectly serviceable. The Follower and bottom of the magazine also do not match and are in nearly new condition. It has a Finnish stock with swivels. The bore is pretty good with bright sharp lands and just a hint of dark in the grooves. We have all seen much worse. It is back-bored by half an inch in case snow gets in the muzzle. It has the "41" capture marking and "SA" stamp.

I would rate the condition of the rifle as good to very good. Certainly decent as a shooter. He would like to sell it and at least get his money back. Would an offer of $350 to a friend be reasonable for both of us? I really appreciate the history of it as the Winter Wars have been a fascination for me. Not a bad way to get into a Finn.

[Remiel]

Pictures would help

[lefty o]

i think he's into it for more than its worth. as for the counterbored muzzle, that has nothing to do with snow getting in the muzzle lol ,that is done because the nice russian peasants that used that rifle sawed on it with the cleaning rod destroyng the rifling near the muzzle.

[Gtek]

Ouch!

[Throwback]

i think he's into it for more than its worth. as for the counterbored muzzle, that has nothing to do with snow getting in the muzzle lol ,that is done because the nice russian peasants that used that rifle sawed on it with the cleaning rod destroyng the rifling near the muzzle.
Let me edit what I said upon re-reading. So you are suggesting that this was a common repair for damaged crowns? I have read that the Germans counterbored their rifles to reduce the potential for barrel damage from mud /snow getting in barrels and that they picked up the technique from the Soviets.

[nagantguy]

Be Leary the two for one deal, sounds like your friend came out behind, pics would help but if he's happy that's all that counts.

[Throwback]

Pics will have to wait. I would add that the wood is in great shape with some minor dings and dents. The barrel and action and sights are in great shape with 90+% of the finish remaining. The magazine/trigger guard is gray (maybe 50% finish). The bolt and cocking knob have scratches and dents like you would expect from a rifle that saw combat. I imagine the rifle they originally belonged with took some hard licks. Still, on the whole it is better than some of the recent Soviet imports.

I pegged the value of his two at $350-ish each. The 6th edition of the Standard Catalog of Military Firearms (2011)indicates the value of this rifle to be perhaps $250-300. If value of Finns has gone up, maybe $350 is in the ball park.

[bedbugbilly]

Throwback . . . snow/mud will clog a counter bored barrel just as easily as one that isn't. Counter boring is just making the muzzle hole larger so you can pack in more mud and snow . . . no different than it will on a small bore rifle versus a shotgun bore . . .

[LAGS]

First,
I dont see how a Russian Captured rifle that was refurbished and put into their inventory is worth any more than a regular Russian rifle.
Did the Finns wave a magic wand over them to make them better or something ?
The Finns that are desireable and worth the money are like the M-27's , 28 's and 39's
There are good rifles that were "imported" from Finland, that were Russian service rifles as well as early US made rifles.
But just because it traveled in it's life thru Finland, does not make it better.
I don't think your friend got Hosed, but I would rather have the other two rifles if they were in decent condition.

[pacomdiver]

that 91/38 alone was worth more than a fin 91/30 . you can pick up fin 91/30s around here in the 250-350 range

the fin rifles generally shot more accurately than their Russian counterparts, as they added bedding shims and replaced shot out barrels to improve accuracy, the Russians were giving them to conscripts so as long as it went bang, that was good enough.

[Hang Fire]

First,
I dont see how a Russian Captured rifle that was refurbished and put into their inventory is worth any more than a regular Russian rifle.
Did the Finns wave a magic wand over them to make them better or something ?
The Finns that are desireable and worth the money are like the M-27's , 28 's and 39's
There are good rifles that were "imported" from Finland, that were Russian service rifles as well as early US made rifles.
But just because it traveled in it's life thru Finland, does not make it better.
I don't think your friend got Hosed, but I would rather have the other two rifles if they were in decent condition.

As a matter of fact they did. Before it was accepted into SA it had to meet very strict standards as to accuracy, bore wear and overall condition.

[Piedmont]

There is a distinction between Finn Mosins and Finn captures. The 91/30 mentioned here is a Finn capture and I would not value it much more highly than any other Russian 91/30. It is a Finn capture because the OP mentioned Tula which is a Russian arsenal and that would have been stamped on the barrel shank, meaning it was not rebarreled by the Finns. There are 91/30s with Finn barrels that have a date stamp from the early 1940s and a T in a triangle if memory serves, denoting Tikka, a Finnish arsenal.

In my mind all the real Finns have Finn barrels. It is a little confusing because the Finns made no receivers, but they replaced about everything else on some of the rifles and they made very good barrels.

I wouldn't give more than $120 for the 91/30 in question.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

i think he's into it for more than its worth. as for the counterbored muzzle, that has nothing to do with snow getting in the muzzle lol ,that is done because the nice russian peasants that used that rifle sawed on it with the cleaning rod destroyng the rifling near the muzzle.

Yes, there is another item for the collection of Commercially Advantageous Myths. A ring bulge, or worse, is caused when an obstruction slows down the bullet and the fast-moving gases have time to build up into an area of extremely high pressure immediately behind it. If the obstruction only slows down the bullet, the bulge will happen around 3/4in. further along than the obstruction was. For the bullet pushes it along slightly during the gas-accumulating time.

Get snow two or three inches from the muzzle, and you are likely to get a bulge a little less than two or three inches further along. Omit the powder charge and fail to notice that the primer has driven the bullet a few inches down the bore, and you are likely to amputate the barrel. But get snow half an inch down the muzzle, and snow and bullet will have exited before the gases catch up.

Most shotgun barrels have an obstruction, the choke. Make a shotgun barrel with a choke starting a few inches back, and you will get some alarming results.

I suppose getting hosed for a lot of money on a good rifle is a bit better than getting hosed for a little on a worthless one. It is unlikely to have been Finns that wore those muzzles.

[tomme boy]

One piece or two piece stock? And yes it makes a BIG difference in price. If it is a two piece it adds about $75-$100 to the value over a regular Russian stocked version. The splice will be in front of the recoil lug on the action. Does it have a Finn modified trigger?

[koger]

I have a Russian capture, rebuild, has a Swedish heavy barrel, with Swede armory/crown stamp on it, and the SA in a square Sako stamp on the side of the barrel.. Barrel is heavy enough that it had been turned down on the end, for sight and bayonet. These were made between 1923-1927, with these bought barrels, when they could not produce enough barrels. Mine has the typical two piece finn stock. The bore is bright, sharp, blue around 85%, wood has some light dings. I saw one in this shape, with a dark bore, but good strong rifling, go for $600 on a M91/30 website. The guy who sold it, begged me to price mine, no go. You need to go to a good site, and verify info before buying swapping, no one trades unless he thinks he is the one getting the better deal!

[wrench]

Unfortunately, I think your friend lost big on that trade. I think each of the two rifles he traded was worth at least as much (more?) as the Finn'd 91/30. I see the Finn capture 91/30s normally selling between $175 and $250 or so. It would take a really special one to surpass those numbers, IMO.
Koger, I'd like to see some pics of yours. As far as I know, Finland did not buy any barrels from Sweden. Germany and Switzerland, yes, but not Sweden.

[Hang Fire]

Why not just go to the real experts and have them give an opinion.

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?3-The-Collector-s-Forum-Mosin-Nagant-HQ



Let me edit what I said upon re-reading. So you are suggesting that this was a common repair for damaged crowns? I have read that the Germans counterbored their rifles to reduce the potential for barrel damage from mud /snow getting in barrels and that they picked up the technique from the Soviets.

[30calflash]

As mentioned pics would help. Could have been rebarreled, 2 piece stock, improved trigger, etc. Also could be stock and met the standards at the time.

Who's receiver? Take it out of the stock and look at the tang. Could have a Tikka barrel on it. Don't know w/o photos.

A lot of info here but it's worthless without pics.

[leadman]

OP said the barrel is a Tula. To me it sounds like a mixture of parts and not a true Finnish rebuilt rifle.

[koger]

Wrench you are correct, I meant to say Swiss. Pm me your smart phone# and I will send you some pics, fo some reason I cannot send them to emails!

[Throwback]

One piece or two piece stock? And yes it makes a BIG difference in price. If it is a two piece it adds about $75-$100 to the value over a regular Russian stocked version. The splice will be in front of the recoil lug on the action. Does it have a Finn modified trigger?

It is a two-piece Finnish stock.

[Throwback]

As mentioned pics would help. Could have been rebarreled, 2 piece stock, improved trigger, etc. Also could be stock and met the standards at the time.

Who's receiver? Take it out of the stock and look at the tang. Could have a Tikka barrel on it. Don't know w/o photos.

A lot of info here but it's worthless without pics.

It is not re-barreled. The only thing the Finn's did was ensure a mix of serviceable parts, improve the trigger, and add a stock.

[Throwback]

Unfortunately, I think your friend lost big on that trade. I think each of the two rifles he traded was worth at least as much (more?) as the Finn'd 91/30. I see the Finn capture 91/30s normally selling between $175 and $250 or so. It would take a really special one to surpass those numbers, IMO.
Koger, I'd like to see some pics of yours. As far as I know, Finland did not buy any barrels from Sweden. Germany and Switzerland, yes, but not Sweden.
Pretty much what I thought. I wished he had talked to me before making the trade. So Finnish 91/30 are not going for more than $250 in your "necks of the woods"?

[LAGS]

I was recently offered $300 for my Finn 1891 with a Tikka bbl
And $500 for an unmodified Finn M-27 with the heavy Sako bbl
I ain't selling them at that price.

[wrench]

I was recently offered $300 for my Finn 1891 with a Tikka bbl
And $500 for an unmodified Finn M-27 with the heavy Sako bbl
I ain't selling them at that price.

There are a lot of Finn rifles above the $300 mark, but I don't see the Finn capture 91/30 rifles sell in that range.

[rondog]

I'm certainly no expert, but I recently bought a 1944 dated Finn 91/30 for $250, at Cabela's. They're not known for bargains ya know. As far as I can tell, it's a Finn-made rifle, not a captured and modified Russian. Dang nice rifle too, I'm real happy with it. Very similar to my 1938 Russian Tula 91/30, but you can tell definite differences.

[WILCO]

Ouch!

That's my take.

[Dutchman]

This is a Finn m/1891 SA marked with a "B" (Belgian) barrel that was unfired when I got it. It has the original Russian one piece stock which is in excellent condition. Never had a handguard as many were imported form Finland that had no handguard when they came out of Finn army storage. This is a MOA shooter with 311299. Five shots into one hole. I didn't buy it outright but did some trading using shop materials for two Finns, the other being a nice VKT m/39. I would hazard a guess that this rifle would bring $350 today. I have grown very attached to it and would not sell it. I have owned two other Finn 91/30 that were "as-new" with new wood and barrels and one had a hang tag. Paid $100 at a small gunshow long ago. I bought my son-in-law a Finn 91/30 that is "as-new" unfired with new wood and barrel. Paid $225 about 6 years ago. Today maybe $400. I've owned a 28/30 and 91/24.

http://images60.fotki.com/v662/photos/2/28344/157842/yr31-vi.jpg

http://images41.fotki.com/v1246/photos/2/28344/157842/yr32-vi.jpg

http://images38.fotki.com/v1214/photos/2/28344/157842/yr33-vi.jpg

[Patrick56]

You have to remember that the Finnish rifles are all made of old parts. Receivers and magazines were never made in Finland. Before the second world war there was a buying frenzy to get all rifles on the market. There was even an attempt to use liners in the barrels ( not very clever). Counter bored muzzles are common, as a lot of barrels were destroyed during the trench stage of the war, cleaning without using the cleaning rod guide.

[Tackleberry41]

Guess I got a good deal, if your in the market for a mosin probably a bad time to buy. Seems they are drying up pretty quick. Only ones I saw at last gun show were Chinese made for $150, friend said he want to Dunhams, one visit had a rack full, next time not a one. Not finding any for sale except J&G they wanted $169 on sale, nobody else seems to have any in stock.

I put an ad on armslist looking for one, didnt even want a good one, but a project gun, try to build one in 45-70. Only got one bite. Guy wanting to get rid of his mosin stuff. 2 rifles, both with the screw on bolt handles done, tho unfirable since the stocks werent notched yet, the 2 scope rails, an ATI stock, plus most of a spam can for $400. No cleaning rods or the extras that come with them, but serviceable rifles. Both 1943 round receiver war production. Funny the difference between a Tula made and Izhevsk, one isnt to bad, other file marks all over it, poor finish. Still cleaning the barrels to see their condition. Maybe sell one, rebarrel the other. Was even tempted to make some sort of 300 whisper out of one, toss in a fast twist barrel just use the 54r chamber so no bolt work is needed.

[odfairfaxsub]

He got a captured rifle that wasn't even rebarreled. I think the trade was full of fail