Some thing to think about

[Bad Water Bill]

DEC 7 1941 A DAY THAT WILL GO DOWN IN INFAMY

No I was not old enough to remember that day or what it really meant but as I sit here and think back on what COULD have happened if Japan had not hit Pearl harbor I fear I just might be sending this message in German.

Hitler did not want to engage America till at least 1950.

At that time he would have total control of all of Europe Africa and probably all of Russia.

He would have developed nuclear weapons,guided missiles to deliver the nukes into the interior of our country,super carriers,super sonic aircraft,thousands of at least snorkel equipped subs with sonar and radar and the list could go on and on.

We probably would have sat there saying not to worry as we have the Atlantic Ocean to keep us apart so sat there still flying biplanes depending on military equipment developed 30-40 years before.

We did have many things on the drawing boards but were we willing to spend the money to produce them while still stuck in a great depression.

Just some food for thought.

[Garyshome]

Back then the politicians put the saftey of Americans and the world ahead of their personal AGENDAS!
Not so today!

[wv109323]

You are right. Hitler had to divide his army to fight the Russians and the Allies which ultimately lead to his defeat.
I have always been amazed at the low amount of American causalities compared to other countries.
23M Germany
12 Russia

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I remember that day very well. I was seven years old at the time. The phone rang and my Mom answered. I could see the longer she listened the more agitated she became. I kept pulling on her dress and asking what was wrong. It was my older brother who called from his job at the cab company and told her the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbor. She never forgive them. Many years later my wife and I took my parents to Disneyland and while we were having lunch at an outdoor café a group of Japanese tourists came walking by and I could hardly control my Mom. I thought I she might get us all thrown out of the park.

[country gent]

One other thing that was really amazing was how fast almost all manyfacturering converted from peace time goods to wartime needs and materials. Almost the complete manufacturering capabilites went to war production of goods and material. Factories converted in matters of months.

[TXGunNut]

World Wars are indeed terrible and wonderful things. The more I learn about the first two the less I want to see the next one.

[shooter93]

Many have said 9-11 was worse. We did lose more people on that day but the truth is when Dec 7th happened we were not prepared and could have lost the entire Republic. I may be naïve but I like to think this country could still unite to save the Republic if necessary. But I'm also sure the first wave of defenders would be an old group of men.

[Mod42]

What really worries me is that this is no longer taught in our schools.............
I find it unbelievable how many young people do not even know what Pearl Harbor is.

[Bad Water Bill]

Much of our modern medical techniques are a direct result of what we have learned in war.

I was talking about that last night when a VERY old lightbulb lit off in my feeble brain.

Many years ago my cousin showed me photos sent to her by her brother at that time a Colonel in dental surgery.

A soldier had about 1/2 of his face blown off but with the NEW techniques learned during and after the war they were able to graft bone from one location and rebuild the bones in his face.

After that they took grafts and built up his face.

When Sherwood was finished the soldier was better looking than he had looked in high school.

No war is not always bad because we do learn from them.

No we can not grow new arms or legs YET but who ever heard of a skin graft during WW1 and now many of our politicians have it done thinking we will not notice how old they REALLY are.

[perotter]

.... We probably would have sat there saying not to worry as we have the Atlantic Ocean to keep us apart so sat there still flying biplanes depending on military equipment developed 30-40 years before. We did have many things on the drawing boards but were we willing to spend the money to produce them while still stuck in a great depression. Just some food for thought. We didn't just sit there and we did spend money. We started to ramp up the military in 1927 and considered the Atlantic Ocean and Pacific Ocean to not offer protection. It was called 'War Plan Red' and the country who was threatening us had a plat to attack us. We built several new air bases in the 1930's under this plan. It would have still been classified when you and I were is grade school. In the end England caved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red

[TXGunNut]

What really worries me is that this is no longer taught in our schools.............
I find it unbelievable how many young people do not even know what Pearl Harbor is.


I find that a little disturbing. I don't know if I'll be around to see how historians treat 9/11 but I'm pretty sure I won't agree with it. Yes, we have learned a lot from wars, I just wish we could learn to do a better job of avoiding them. Logistics, training and equipment are good deterrents but sometimes our enemies demonstrate a need for more than that.

[Col4570]

We didn't just sit there and we did spend money. We started to ramp up the military in 1927 and considered the Atlantic Ocean and Pacific Ocean to not offer protection. It was called 'War Plan Red' and the country who was threatening us had a plat to attack us. We built several new air bases in the 1930's under this plan. It would have still been classified when you and I were is grade school. In the end England caved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red

It was not a case of England caving in.There was no threat from us but it was right for the U.S to consider any nation with a larger navy to be a threat.This lead to Increased manufacture and mobilisation that a few years later proved to be a godsend.One has to be carefull not to put Two and Two together and make five.

[perotter]

It was not a case of England caving in.There was no threat from us but it was right for the U.S to consider any nation with a larger navy to be a threat.This lead to Increased manufacture and mobilisation that a few years later proved to be a godsend.One has to be carefull not to put Two and Two together and make five. England caved on trade issues and what they allowed to imported into it's empire. That was the point of contention in the first place. For some US manufacturing industries 50% or more of what they produced was not allowed to be imported into the empire. With 20-20 hindsight we all know now that England was finished as a power by then and not a big military threat to any industrialized nation. But one normally reacts strongly when dealing with a historic enemy. One has to careful about applying current thinking and views to history or one does come up with five.

[Harter66]

I will suggest 2 books non fiction for you to read and a 3rd if you can find it.
Stuka pilot is the 1st the writer flew his 1st mission in September of 39 and his last when he surrendered his flight to allied forces in 45. His point of view was not that the Allied forces were equipped with better tools but that the were full tool sets for every man and so many of them were so well versed in the tools use. Secondly it was that men and equipment just kept coming no matter what or how much was destroyed.

The 2nd is Flight into Conquest, sometimes found recovered as Bye Bye Blacksheep after a chance meeting of Masjaro Kawato and Gregory Boyinton in Reno Nevada . Turns out Mike shot Greg down when he was captured by the Japanese. His take on men an machines was the same as the Stuka Pilot's (actually meeting the guys makes their names easier to remember).

Last is Our Enemy Japan written in 1942 it details the social structure and mind set of that Army/Navy pointing out that Japan while no longer ruled by Shogun Warlords was still very much a cast ,duty,honor,die and kill 50 when I go society.lt also mentioned in passing that by 12/41 we were already tooled up and needed only add operators to the machinery to go from 100 pieces per day to 1000.

Our boys were well fed and rested compared to the Axis troops the Stuka guy flew IIRC something like 2200 missions (there are only 2132 days in 6 yr assuming 2 leap years ) Mike was in for 3 years and flew some 900 being shot down and captured in early 45'. It took 32 air to air kills to be a Luftwaffen ace quite a feat in the 1939 version of an A10 .

Pearl has a special place for me see the guy that annexed it shared my 5th greats and both grands were there . This is why I couldn't understand the total lack of response to the USS Cole.

I think a declared invasion would have a very hard time not because of the "old men" and driven patriotism, but because of the west coast gangs ,no not 9th St blood drops ,but the networks in place within the Angels, Mongols, Bloods etc ,never mind that they are armed to the gills and probably have armored vehicles stashed away. The east coast I can only imagine is similar although more likely to have deal makers. There is a greater GI base there so that is an off set. The gulf Coast I'm sure is not all swamps but there is so much that is and trying to get all the dugouts clear I don't want that job . That brings us back to the Sonoran desert and California leaving a trek across Canada and the winters of Montana and the Dakotas, Illinois might not be so bad from the lake side .

[Col4570]

England caved on trade issues and what they allowed to imported into it's empire. That was the point of contention in the first place. For some US manufacturing industries 50% or more of what they produced was not allowed to be imported into the empire. With 20-20 hindsight we all know now that England was finished as a power by then and not a big military threat to any industrialized nation. But one normally reacts strongly when dealing with a historic enemy. One has to careful about applying current thinking and views to history or one does come up with five.
Fortunately recent history is well documented therefore your slant on that time is out of sink concerning the relationship between the U K and the USA.If you refer to the American War of independence when quoting historic Emnity then I can only conclude that the cooperation between the two nations whilst engaging in the Two World Wars is not familiar to your historical Knowledge.

[perotter]

War Plan Red was US the plan the 1930's to go to war with England. In part because England refused to the US the $45 billion they owed us. The US built got Fort Drum and built 3 air bases for war with England in the 1930s. Here is a little for you to study about War Plan Red. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/america-planned-war-britain-revealed/ and the Canadian view of it. http://globalresearch.ca/reflecting-on-canadas-sovereignty-americas-plan-to-annex-and-invade-canada/5341097

[Bad Water Bill]

Now IF we could only collect the money spent for supplying other countries with rhe means to defend themselves before the war,during war and for reconstruction after WW1-2 we could pay off all of our national debt.

To make it even better collect SOME interest on the money from the date loaned till paid in full.

IIRC Finland is the only country that has ever done that.

[smoked turkey]

I think one of the reasons our leadership is having problems knowing how to deal with some of the terrorist threats we face is the fact that so few of our current crop of electel officials have ever served in the military and they don't really kow how to deal with the enemy. Some of our highest elected officials are too arrogant to listen to the advice from many of the old heads that have been there and done it.

[MtGun44]

Hmm. Hitler's U-boats already had snorkels, and sonar - early in the war. By 1942 they had primitive
radar on some U-boats, although not nearly as good as Brit or US radars.

US had monoplane fighters before the war (Grumman Wildcat, for example) so biplanes were only trainers
by 1941 in US military.

Bill

[Recluse]

Fortunately recent history is well documented therefore your slant on that time is out of sink concerning the relationship between the U K and the USA.If you refer to the American War of independence when quoting historic Emnity then I can only conclude that the cooperation between the two nations whilst engaging in the Two World Wars is not familiar to your historical Knowledge.

Hell, I'll go you even better.

Ask any U.S. serviceman who's deployed or done duty in the UK and they'll tell you that the British military is our number one ally, bar none. After our civil war, Great Britain has been our staunchest and most reliable military ally--even moreso than Israel. I'll put the Aussies in there as well, but GB is still number one.

I no longer consider political figures or units as being an ally to anyone. In most cases, the government is the enemy of the very people it is consigned to serve. Since we're talking war and combat, my focus on allies is with fellow brothers and sisters who've worn their respective nation's uniforms--and I'm here to tell you I'll STILL trust my life to a British soldier/sailor/airman without question anywhere in the world under any circumstances.

Ask anyone who's spent any time at all with the lads from Hereford and they'll tell you the same thing.

:coffee:

[Harter66]

I think the N3N was the last bi-wing in military service. The BT13 I believe was it's basic trainer then into the T6/SNJ/Harvard ,they hail from 39 but I'm not for sure when they were adopted.

[Bad Water Bill]

Ah yes memories.

While walking a street in Malta we were invited by a pair of British sailors to join them at a pub.

After a short while they suggested we go to a party with FREE FOOD AND DRINKS.

The party was foll of Admirals and all kinds of other gold not to mention lots of suits.

Since Bob and I were lowly E4s we felt very uncomfortable there and worked our way outside and looked for a cab back to the ship.

Shortly a car pulled up and a civilian offered us a ride to the ship.

The next day everyone had to fall out for inspection by the American Ambasador.

Imagine our skippers surprise when the Ambasador stopped by me and said "well look who is here,how did you like the party last night ----?

Yes the guy that gave 2 lowly sailors a ride back to the ship was the Ambasador.

To this day I wonder why the Brit NCOs were welcome to that party but lowly American NCOs were only permitted because we were guests of a couple British NCOs of equal rank but different Navies?

[Col4570]

Hell, I'll go you even better.

Ask any U.S. serviceman who's deployed or done duty in the UK and they'll tell you that the British military is our number one ally, bar none. After our civil war, Great Britain has been our staunchest and most reliable military ally--even moreso than Israel. I'll put the Aussies in there as well, but GB is still number one.

I no longer consider political figures or units as being an ally to anyone. In most cases, the government is the enemy of the very people it is consigned to serve. Since we're talking war and combat, my focus on allies is with fellow brothers and sisters who've worn their respective nation's uniforms--and I'm here to tell you I'll STILL trust my life to a British soldier/sailor/airman without question anywhere in the world under any circumstances.

Ask anyone who's spent any time at all with the lads from Hereford and they'll tell you the same thing.

:coffee:
Yes our troops have been joined at the hips on the recent wars and long may they do so.