45 Colt loads for SAA with Vihtavuori powder

[Carsten]

Hi folks.

I am looking for loads for Lee .452-255-RF bullets with Vihtavuori powder.
It is for my Colt SAA 3rd gen. from 1978.

I am an experienced handloader and I normally develop my own loads for both rifle and handguns, using Quickload, publiced data and common sense.

However, I am confused about the different power levels for the 45 Colt and I hear a lot of talk about how week the Colt cylinders are.
Available loading data is all over the place from very mild to the opposite.

The loads from Vihtavuori’s website seems rather hot for a SAA and I read about a guy blowing up a SAA clone with their publiced data.

Running Vihtavuori’s data in Quickload also shows excessive pressure but I have experienced before that QL calculations are off in certain pistol calibers.

I can easily find a mild target load but I would also like to make some, for a SAA, hot loads that duplicates the original black powder load.

Can anyone advice me some data using Vihtavuori powder?
I have N330, N340, N105, N110 and Tin Star.
Which one is the best suited for the 255gr. bullet?

[35 Whelen]

You should subscribe to loaddata.com . I did and it's some of the best money I've ever spent! Tons of Vihtavouri data there.

Sample:



250

LRN

Vihtavuori

VV-N330

6.3

781



Remarks: starting load; Cowboy Action Shooting load



250

LRN

Vihtavuori

VV-N330

7.5

961



Remarks: maximum load; Cowboy Action Shooting load

[USSR]

Carsten,

Use either Tin Star or N330, depending upon how fast you want to push those 255gr bullets. For a mild load I would try 5.5gr of the Tin Star, and for a heavier load I would try 9.0gr of N330 and work up from there. Hope that helps.

Don

[DougGuy]

Welcome to the forum Carsten! When you extrapolate loads, just keep in mind that your revolver has a 14,000psi pressure ceiling and you will be fine. I would not even use +P loads in that fine Colt. Rugers will take all the +P you want to put through them but not the Colts.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Carsten, I shoot 3rd gen Colt's a lot and have for years. I have a pound of VV-3N37 which I purchased because Brian Pearce of Handloader magazine said was a good powder. According to Pearce 10.5 gr of VV-3N37 is safe for driving a RCBS 270 gr Keith boolit at 950 to 1,000 fps from a post war Colt SAA. Also 11.0 gr of VV 3N37 with the 454424 for over 1,000 fps.

My pound of VV-3N37 has been sitting for years while I have been shooting the 454190 with 8.0 gr of Unique.

I tested 10.5 gr of VV 3N37 with the 454190 .454" and got 5 shots which chronographed at 860, 911, 889, 889, 905. CCI300's, Starline brass, Lyman Alox. Wheelweigh alloy. 4 3/4" Colt SAA.

Handloader magazine recently published factory equivalent loads and VV-3N37 was listed at 8.5 gr with a 250 gr boolit. I think it was Mike Ventrino.

I've been hard on my Colt SAA's, I own many so if one goes down I could just pick up another one. I've found the rumors of their weakness untrue. I've run these guns without changing any springs and they last longer than my Beretta 92 did, and I change the coil springs in my 1911 more often, mostly because I don't rely on the SAA for defense. But I've pushed the SAA hard with high round counts with full factory loads, not even cleaning them for months to see what their limit is.

One thing I don't do tho is push the chamber pressures into the upper limits of what the gun writers say is safe. I could load a few high pressure loads for bear when I'm outdoor but we only have black bears here and I find no need for more than a 250 gr boolit at 850 fps out of a Colt SAA.

The 250 gr boolit over 8 gr of Unique does have authority to do the business, it seems hot when shot but is a low pressure load given the large chamber of the .45 Colt.

I've got .44 Special loads that push a 240 gr boolit at over 1,000 fps and they are quite snappy. I'm told they are safe and I don't really need any more than that. If I need more power I use my Ruger SBH .44 Mag.

I've noticed the 454424 and the 454190 seat at much different depths so be aware that a max load for one boolit does not translate to the same max load for the other.

Let me know what you find, I look forward to hearing from you.

[ole 5 hole group]

Might give 9.2 grains of N-340 a try - should be in the low 900fps range.

[Carsten]

I read the article by Brian Pierce but I am out of 3N37.

We cannot legally store more than 4.5 lbs of powder at a time here.
That itself is impossible but I do try to limit my stock ;)

My target is an honest 900 fps from my 5.5" barrel.
Can I safely work up to that over the chrono using N330, N340 or Tin Star?

I always use safety goggles when testing loads and I am usually not particular worried when developing loads but blowing up this fine Colt would make me very sad.

[ole 5 hole group]

I don't see a problem - N330 is a little fast to my way of thinking - I've used N350 but the accuracy for me wasn't good until I got to the upper limits - N340 worked the best for me for "heavy" target loads. 9.2 grains was my sweet spot. I haven't fired that load over a chronograph but I think it should be around 900fps but the pressure is low in my SW-25, as the cases are pretty well smoked (black).

[Carsten]

I did a test yesterday.
The Lee bullet has to be seated rather deep to a OAL of 1.555" and is cast to 265gr. so I started low.
I testet up to 8.2 gr. this time and this gave 765fps.
Recoil feels like my Magtech cowboy action rounds at 730fps.
I will aim for 9gr. next time.

[BCB]

Carsten...

If you have QuickLoad, you can set the psi to a level that will be safe for your handgun...

Then use the powder selection screen and insert different charges of powder for different VV powders...

Or, you can use the Ba screen and have it do the calculations and suggested powders...

It can take a bit of time, but it is always interesting the results you get...

I have used some of the data from my Ruger Blackhawk--but my goal is very light loads for it just to shoot with no damage to my hands--recoil I mean...

QuickLoad can be a very good friend once you get it figured out...

Good-luck...BCB

[Larry Gibson]

Carsten

I did extensive testing of VV Tin Star for a cartridge company and numerous CBA SASS shooters. I conducted velocity and accuracy tests in Uberti Revolvers and M1873 rifles. I also conducted extensive actual pressure testing and load work up. Using Tin Star (VV N32C) in Starline cases with Federal 150 primers under a 454190 Lyman 250 gr cast bullet I found 8.9 gr to be an excellent load. It produces excellent accuracy with pressures at 18,200 psi(M43) and velocities equal to the old standby "classic" load of the same bullet over 8.5 gr Unique. I use that load in both my Uberti's and my M1873 Carbine. It should prove excellent in your 3rd Gen Colt SAA.

Larry Gibson

[Carsten]

Larry
What was the OAL of those rounds?
Is 18,200 psi safe in a Colt SAA?

I do use Quickload end have done it for years.
I currently have v3.3.
I find it excellent for developing rifle loads but in some handgun calibers it is sometimes way off.
I have also used earlier versions and they were even worse.
For handguns I use it for "what if" predictions more than for pressure indications.
Maybe I should upgrade to v.3.8 and see if that is better.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

454190 is properly seated with a COL at 1.60"

[Larry Gibson]

The 454190 bullets were cast (#2 alloy) from a Lyman mould (geargnasher's) and seated to the crimp groove in new Starline cases. OAL in the new cases as tested was 1.589".

Larry Gibson

[Carsten]

I worked up to 9gr. N340 today.
895FPS from my 5.5" barrel.

Tried some Tin Star up to 8.4gr.
This gave 855FPS.

This was with an COL of 1.555" and a 265gr. cast weight.

Next time I will go a little higher on the Tin Star load.

[Patrick56]

Hej Carsten, go to the Vihtavuori website and download the Reloading Guide 10. The .45 LC is listed twice, normal handgun loads and CAS loads.

[Carsten]

Hi Patrick.

VV is known to publish rather hot data.
Not so many lawyers in Finland I guess ;)
I wouldn't dare to put 9.6gr. Tin Star in a SAA.
The Tin Star max load is over 20000PSI in Quickload.
I do believe that a 3rd gen. SAA will withstand 45 ACP max pressure as it is offered in that caliber but no one will really tell me.

[Patrick56]

Hi Carsten, 9,6gr Tin Star is listed as a maximum load that should be approached with care. If your cases show signs of excessive pressure before reaching max loads, you are supposed to stop there. I would never take for granted that any of my guns would withstand max loads as there is always differences in chamber and barrell dimensions that could increase pressure. Bullet hardness and diameter etc. could do the same. In rifles we used Kemira no28 primers as a poor mans pressure sensor. They are thinner and when flattened warns of high pressure.

[Patrick56]

About the 45ACP. It is in no way a magnum cartridge as the case is thin and has no support at the feeding ramp. A quality SA revolver will stand the pressures generated in an .45ACP well.

[Carsten]

The SAAMI max pressure for 45 Colt is only 14000 PSI while the ACP is rated to 21000 PSI.
The Colt SAA cylinder cannot not be compared to the one of a modern quality revolver.
I am also told that with the Colt you cannot rely on normal pressure signs, as you will not see any signs before you are way over the the red line for this gun.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
I am an experienced handloader but I am new to the Colt SAA so any advise will be appreciated.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Carsten, as I'm watching this post I just want to caution you, your looking for high velocities and max loads but you are limited to the powders you have available and you are loading for a gun that is not strong and was never intended for high velocities. I've been shooting Colt's SAA's for 30 years and own seven of them. Please consider enjoying your Colt's for a while in the medium velocity arena. You will probably do what I did, you'll acquire slower burning powders and light boolits but in the end you'll stick to heavy boolits with medium velocities. I'd hate to think you're metal stressing your Colt's. Acquire on old model Ruger for a higher pressure testing and shooting, I have one in .45 Colt which I use for testing but I don't really shoot it that much because my Colt's do everything I want. If you are looking for flat trajectory then consider a .357 or a .44 Mag. I had a 7 1/2" Colt SAA .357 that was very accurate and strong but did not deliver the heavy payload like a .45 Colt. I have a couple Ruger .357's and Ruger .44 Mag that are real flat shooters for longer range but like I said, I shoot my Colt's 10 times more than my Rugers. And if you damage a Ruger you are out a lot less than a hard to acquire expensive Colt SAA. I think it was Skeeter Skelton who said don't plow with a dragster or take a tractor to the drag races.

Once I intentionally blew up an Italian SA .45. It didn't let go with a double charge of fast burning powder like I thought it would, it did come apart with a case full of slow burning powder when I didn't think it should have. Not very scientific but I figured the double charge of fast burning powder stressed the metal which caused it to blow up with the over charged case. I was impressed it held together with a double charge in the first place. So I don't stress Colt's and they have served me well for decades. But the design leaves very little metal between the cylinder and the bolt stop notch which is the weak point. Colt's originally designed the SAA in .44 caliber and the Army dictated they be re calibrated to .45. If you want real high velocities safely, get some black powder. Your Colt will rip snort safely with FFg, it's really fun. You'll have cleaning job on your hands when your done tho.

If your target is 900 fps try Power Pistol with 9.5 gr, I get 900 fps with a 255 gr boolit, but feel more comfortable in the 850 fps range.

[Patrick56]

Ok, I don´t know the Colt SAA very well but as it is made in 1978 and possibly offered in other calibers(?) that generates much higher pressures, as the .357 magn with 34,000psi as max, I would suppose that the steel used 1978 is of higher quality than back in the 19th century?

[Bearbait in NM]

Patrick,

The quality of the steel is less important as the quantity in the 357 SAA. All SAA's have about the same diameter cylinder. Boring a larger hole (357 v. 45) leaves much less material between the bottom depth of the stop notches and the outside of the cylinder. I would imagine a secondary issue would be the larger case head exerting more back thrust on the frame to losen things.

Carsten, I too have been developing loads for my 45 New Frontier and am pretty comfortable with 20 or so K psi. The 45 acp is safe in the Colts, and runs in this area. Plus I have a lot of written information from folks who I trust who have been doing this a long time. Using, as Silver noted, very specific medium buring rate powders, like AL 2400. I am sorry you are forced to experiment with powders that have less historical use for this very specific application.

While this is not a powder solution, I am probably going to have someone cut me a new cylinder for my NF. The typical approach is to ream a 357 cylinder to 45 Colt. Gonna specify minimum spec on the body which will get me a little more chamber support, and uniform throats at .452 to take this variable out of the equation. Hoping I can close the BC gap, and I can certainly address any endshake. My thinking is to take the approach of working with the powder, and the gun. Also hoping that by cleaning up the gun's tolerances, maybe I'll need less pressure to get velocity where I want it.

Craig

[Patrick56]

I am not saying that anybody should load a 45Colt to the same pressure as a 357 but a 45ACP is not very hot and a gun made 1978 made to SAAMI or CIP standards should have no problems with a similar pressure. 45ACP has been used in several .45 Colt revolvers using single or double clips. I still think that guns made of modern steel has a better tensile strength compared to guns made before 1WW , with the exception of very cheap Saturday night specials .

[Tar Heel]

Welcome to the forum Carsten! When you extrapolate loads, just keep in mind that your revolver has a 14,000psi pressure ceiling and you will be fine. I would not even use +P loads in that fine Colt. Rugers will take all the +P you want to put through them but not the Colts.

To expand (clarify?) a tad here. The Ruger Blackhawk frame guns are OK with the "Ruger" identified loads. The original Vaquero is a Blackhawk frame. The New Vaquero is NOT a Blackhawk frame and should be restricted to the "Colt" and Colt clone loads of 14,000 psi (953 bar).

[Patrick56]

Carsten, John Taffin writes excellent stories about sixguns at this website. The 45Colt story includes some VV loads. http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt45lc.htm

[fouronesix]

Ok, I don´t know the Colt SAA very well but as it is made in 1978 and possibly offered in other calibers(?) that generates much higher pressures, as the .357 magn with 34,000psi as max, I would suppose that the steel used 1978 is of higher quality than back in the 19th century?

That is basically correct- considering the design of the gun. The Colt '73 revolver (SAA) was designed in the BP era. The metallurgy advanced far enough that Colt began listing that same revolver design as "smokeless" in about 1901-2. That was probably the greatest strength increment of increase over the time the SAA has been made.

Fast forward into the 2nd generation Colts then on into the modern "3rd"+ generation- in which 1978 would fall. No doubt that the metallurgy (strength) has gotten better between 1901 and present, but probably in smaller increments. In other words the margin for error has gotten smaller. While any one model of Colt revolver may be rated for 30K psi, the margin to failure above that 30K psi is no doubt smaller and likewise would depend on the cartridge and the basic chamber wall thickness and/or strength.

I think if you use some basic published pressure based data for specific powders and components and proceed as per normal load development, should have no problems. Interpolation good. Extrapolation bad.

Forgot to mention, as in the 44-40 thread, the Hornady manual lists VV powder for the 45 Colt revolver. They state in the preamble that the loads are ok in modern Colts and modern Colt replicas.

7 1/2" revolver
Start load- 5.1 gr VV n-320, 700 fps, 255 gr swaged lead bullet
Max load-- 6.5 gr VV n-320, 850 fps, 255 gr swaged lead bullet

[35 Whelen]

To expand (clarify?) a tad here. The Ruger Blackhawk frame guns are OK with the "Ruger" identified loads. The original Vaquero is a Blackhawk frame. The New Vaquero is NOT a Blackhawk frame and should be restricted to the "Colt" and Colt clone loads of 14,000 psi (953 bar).

The New Vaquero is a "smaller" version of the Blackhawk (think Flat Top Blackhawk), but is capable of handling loads above 14,000 psi. From Handloader #234 and an article by Brian Pearce:

“This raises the question: What loads are safe in the New Vaquero? The weak link, so to speak, is the cutout for the locking bolt notches. that leaves between.030 to .035 inch actual chamber wall thickness (which varied some from chamber to chamber). Considering the steels Ruger is currently using and with the above cylinder measurements, indications are that the gun is absolutely safe with loads that generate 22,000 to 24,000 psi. Certainly the gun will take even greater pressures than this, but with safety first priority….”

Interestingly, I was recently reading another old article by Pearce over the now defunct USFA revolvers. In the piece he points out that the cylinders of the US-made USFA's are .020" larger in diameter than the than those of Colt SA's which translates in to chamber walls that are .010" thicker. What this in turn translates to, in his words, is a revolver that is capable of withstanding quite a bit more chamber pressure than a Colt. I measured a couple of my Uberti's and their cylinders too are .020" larger in diameter than the Colt's This of course means more metal around the chamber.
I would not and do not load my Uberti 45 Colt above 14,000, but it is nice knowing there's a pretty good margin for error there. That may explain why it was somewhat difficult for Silver Jack Hammer to blow up the Italian repro.

35W

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Post War Colt's .45's SAA's are rated as safe at 19,000 psi by Handloader #217. Post War Colt's .44 Specials are rated as safe at 25,000 psi by Brian Pearce and Handloader magazine. The .45 Colt is rated by SAMMI at 14,000 psi "maximum average pressure." The .357 Magnum has a SAMMI pressure rating 35,000 psi and is perfectly safe in the Colt's SAA or Model P as it is called at the factory. The .45 ACP is pressure rated established at 21,000 psi by SAMMI. Colt's makes a .45 ACP cylinder for their Model P but I do not own one. .45 ACP +P is rated at 23,000 psi. I would be cautious.

The USFA was stronger than the Colt's by the slightly larger cylinder, plus the fact that the action of the USFA was altered slightly from the Colt's dimensions by moving the bolt over slightly which positioned the bolt stop notches on the cylinder slightly off center of the thinnest part of the cylinders, the center. This provided a few extra thousandths inches of metal strength. Brian Pearce was involved in the design and development of this at USFA. He had USFA bore a SA to .44 Mag which he said he was shooting magnum loads out of with no ill effect to the gun. Ouch. Smith and Wesson L frame 5 shots enjoy the same cylinder strength principal of moving the cylinder stop bolt notches off center of the cylinder as well.

The 250 gr boolit over 8.0 to 8.5 gr of Unique is a common and stout load which is safe in the Colt's. Personally I see no need to explore the upper limits of a Colt's SAA, when I shoot 100 rounds of 454190 over 8.5 gr the knuckle of my middle finger is slightly red and swollen. The boolit with penetrate everything in the State I live in, and the sights aren't really suited for long range shooting which would be one of the benefits of higher velocity, flatter shooting rounds. I've filed the sights of my Colt's SAA .45's to this load 454190 over 8.5 gr of Unique and my guns are zeroed. Switching loads adjusts the point of impact therefore I never venture into the field with any loads that have a different point of impact on a fixed sighted gun. My Ruger BH .45 has an adjustable rear sight for those loads.

The Smith N frame in .45 Colt is rated as safe to 23,000 psi by Handloader #217. Then the Ruger SBH is rated to 32,000 CUP -note the switch from psi to CUP. And the Ruger Redhawk is rated as safe at 50,000 psi.

I paid attention to the same principal when I owned a 1963 Smith and Wesson N frame .44 Magnum and a Ruger Super Redhawk at the same time. Not only were the two guns capable of withstanding different levels of pressure, but in shooting them the Ruger was more comfortable with hotter loads than the Smith Model 29 would have been, even if Model 29 might not have been damaged.

Like Dave Skovill says, the Colt .45 works just fine as it is and has for years while they are always trying to improve on the .38 / .357 and 9mm. So choose a load, zero your Colt's to that load and shoot it.

Nowadays those us that work for a living can go down to the gunshop and buy guns as powerful as guns that only the very wealthy could afford when I was young. All this is a marvoulous advancement that I enjoy but I shoot the Colt's as they were originally intended to be shot.

[Carsten]

Thanks for all the replies.
Very interesting reading.
I really don't want to push the envelope and and risk any damage my fine Colt.
I just want a smokeless load that dublicates the original black powder load as close as possible.
If I can load my 265gr. soft boolits safely to 900 FPS I will be happy and won't ask for more.
Unfortunately I am limited to Vihtavuori powder.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

For highest velocity I'd get the slowest VV powder, I'm sorry I am not familiar with that line of powder.

The full 250 gr black powder charge in the Colt's long brass case was very high powdered. Most military personnel were not competent with the full 250 gr long brass charge so the military used the shorter 230 gr Schofield round. At the turn of the century the popularity of the Colt's SAA changed from favoring the long barreled 7 1/2" to the shorter barrels, this change corresponded with the change from black powder to smokeless. I'm assuming along with others that the long barrel was favored when shooting black powder and the short barrel was favored with smokeless. The black powder was more powerful and difficult to control.

Colt's also sold more SAA's in the decade after the turn of the century than in the decade before.

[Carsten]

In the VV manual there is a single load with the slow N105.
If I run the start load (14gr.) with my Lee boolit in Quickload I will get 1000 FPS and 15000 PSI and a charge density of 70%.
Maybe reduce to 13.5gr. and still have 950 FPS and 13500 PSI.

[cajun shooter]

Carsten, I have to ask you as I'm in the dark when it comes to your country and it's laws. Is real black powder available for you to purchase and use? Is the powder that you have the only smokeless powder available or do you just buy that brand?
I'm a shooter in the SASS cowboy shooting sport and only shoot in the Frontier Cartridge class which states that we use only BP loads in all of our guns. I'm shooting Uberti Smokewagons from Taylors at this time but had two sets of USFA revolvers in the past, one set in 45 Colt and one set in 44WCF. I had to sell both due to a family need of funds. Best revolvers that I ever owned.
I have no idea about your available funds and it's not my business, but why don't you purchase another brand of SAA to test loads with? I just don't understand someone using any generation of Colt SAA as a revolver to test the upper ranges of any powder. Buy some 2F if you are able and shoot it with 34 grains and a bullet of your choice. Have fun and know that every time a round is fired, you are doing the very same thing that was done by the men of the 1870's forward. Enjoy it for what it represents in the history of the world and remember that we are the keepers of these fine firearms for the next generation. Take Care David
PS I have used 8 grains of Unique since the sixties for loads in 45 Colt, 44 Mag, 44 special and 41 mag . It's fun to shoot, accurate and easy on the gun.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Carsten, the load data I'm looking at on the VV website shows 14.1 gr of N105 at 971 fps and 15.0 gr of N105 at 1129 fps, with the Hornady HP XTP. The first thing I notice is an increase of one grain increases velocity by a published 60 fps, so it appears N105 is not a very forgiving powder when the handloader is off a few tenth's of a grain. This gets touchy when your running red line loads. I'd calibrate my scale and start on the low end of the powder charge and shoot this for a while until I felt comfortable with it.

The next thing I'm concerned about is the Hornady's HP XTP's crimping grove's location compared to the Lee .452-255-rf's crimping groove. It appears the Lee boolit will seat much deeper into the case than the Hornady, reducing case capacity. Us sport handloaders use manuals that refer to C.O.L. but that doesn't always tell the whole story about what is going on inside the case. If your using load data from one boolit for a different boolit the actual results should not match in terms of pressure. Again, if you were starting off on the low end of the safety margin you would be on more sure ground but if you are at the upper limits of the pressure chart you could very likely be exceeding the published data.

By your posts it appears you have access to a chronograph and that's good. But our chronographs only tell us one side of the story. I'd urge you to back away from the max powder charge data and get some time in with this boolit with your Colt. Shooting is fun, spend time getting familiar with your boolit in your Colt with the line of powder you use before jumping into trusting someone else's load data. If you were using an old model Vaquero or old model Blackhawk and were using the Hornady HP XTP boolit you'd be on a more sure footing but your already using a much different boolit than the published data is using.

Like I said, even on the American frontier they didn't like the full black powder charge in the short barrel .45 Colt's.

[Carsten]

The gun laws in Denmark are not in the shooters favor.
We can only own 6 big bore handguns but only two revolvers in the same caliber group.
I own three revolvers, two of them in the same group, a S&W 629 and a Colt SAA, so I could not buy a second single action revolver even if I wanted to, except if I sold the Smith.
I am one of the very few here who have a license for a 44 Magnum handgun.
They are not given any more so if I ever sell the 629 I can never buy another one.

We also need a license for reloading and purchasing powder.
My license does not permit me to reload with black powder.

We do not have any importer of the US powders at the time so Vihtavuori and Norma is pretty much what you can find here.
Yes I have a very accurate chrony and I use Quickload to assist me when developing loads.
I do not blindly trust QL but I find it rather accurate for “what if” calculations e.g. changing the seating depth for a given boolit.
The XTP bullet used in the VV loading manual is longer than the Lee 255gr. so it is actually seated deeper even though the COL is longer.
I am still reluctant to use the Vihtavuori data for a Colt SAA though.

Strange thing that their cowboys loads apparently are unsafe in a real SAA.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I checked VV's cowboy load data, their max column lists 2 loads with a velocity of over 1,000. SASS rules require handgun loads be under 1,000 fps.

VV's load data sure seems to lean on the hotter side compared to the Speer and Lyman loading manuals I use, I use primarily Alliant brand powder. I'm shooting my Colt's 4 3/4" and 7 1/2" bbl's with 250 gr boolit at 850 fps safely all day long and really don't need any higher velocity. The guns take it safely.

I've got a .44 Special 7 1/2" which I can throw a 240 gr boolit at over 1,100 fps with 2 different powders and really am aware of the recoil with these loads.

I had a SAA with one piece walnut grips when I was a kid I put 9.0 grains of Unique in it and I couldn't hold onto it. After firing the muzzle swung violently so as to be pointed at the buzzards with the hammer resting in the web of my hand between the thumb and forefinger. I use mostly the gutta percha grips ever since.