Much advantage with the Marlin 45-70 over the 444 Marlin?

[huntersdog]

Is there really that much of a difference using the 45-70 over the 444 Marlin out deer, elk and black bear hunting? A good cast .44 bullets should do very well and all 3 of the big game mentioned above. Any 444 Marlin lovers here?

[mogwai]

This can quickly escalate to full-out war, but for the game you described, I prefer the 444. Cast boolits from 240-300 that are sized to .432 will do the job.

J-word bullets from 265-300 will, too. I use 240 jsp for northern whitetails, but would recommend the 265 Hornady for one size fits all.

[osteodoc08]

There's no replacement for displacement. 45-70 all the way!

Seriously though, the 444 would be suitable for the game listed.

Once you get ahold of a guide gun in 45-70, you'll understand.

[huntersdog]

There's no replacement for displacement. 45-70 all the way!

Seriously though, the 444 would be suitable for the game listed.

Once you get ahold of a guide gun in 45-70, you'll understand.
The nice the is the 44 Mag and 444 Marlin can use the same hunting bullets. The downside is the 444 brass costs twice the 45-70.

[btroj]

I have both. Three deer, 2 bears have met the 45-70. Haven't gotten the 444 into the mix yet.

Personally I think the 45-70 has a better assortment of bullets available and just does what I want done.

[quilbilly]

When I got my 444 years ago, the only reason I didn't get the 45/70 instead was that I liked the variety of boolits to choose from in the 429 cal. all the way from 180 to 310 gr and beyond.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
When you realise there is only .030 diameter difference there should be very little "pop" difference on target. 444 (.430) with the same weight boolit cast of the same mix traveling at the same fps will do everything the .458 will do within a few hairs.
This is the very reason years ago I sold off my 44"s (.430 magnums)and happilly settled on calibers .41 and .45 . Just did not need an in between that was going to have no significant impact difference on target.
Same reason I built a .41-444 on a Marlin 336. I have within a hair the same results as the 444 Marlin but using a caliber I have a boxful of molds for.
You loose nothing. But if you have to buy one from scratch always go the larger. Bigger holes are always better if all other factors are equal.
Mike in Peru

[Suo Gan]

It is about the difference from being hit with a Peterbilt vs a Kenworth.

[Lonegun1894]

For the game listed, I don't think it matters. However, considering that the heavy bullets for the .444 are on the light sight end of the scale weight wise of the bullets available for the .45-70, the advantage of the .45 over the .44 is in the weight more than it is in the diameter. Here is the way I see it. With game under 400 lbs, I don't think it matters one bit which of these two you choose, but with game bigger than that, or even if you would someday like to hunt game bigger than that, I would go with the .45-70. I did, twice now.

[starmac]

The 444 got a bad rap from the gitgo with only pistol bullets available, that didn't perform on game at the velocities the cartridge generated.
With modern bullets, it is a whole different animal. That said, it will never be a 45/70, but with the proper loads can and will handle anything a guy wants to do.

[rhead]

In my AO an angry mamma sow is likely the most dangerous game i am likely to face. if i am hunting them i doubt there will be a difference. if they are hunting me i will take the 45 70.

[TXGunNut]

The 444 got a bad rap from the gitgo with only pistol bullets available, that didn't perform on game at the velocities the cartridge generated.
With modern bullets, it is a whole different animal. That said, it will never be a 45/70, but with the proper loads can and will handle anything a guy wants to do.


Last time I seriously considered a .444 the bullet selection was what turned me away. Even today the 45-70 still has the advantage of better availability of bullets, boolits, moulds, brass, dies, and rifles, IMHO. Situation has markedy improved over the past 25-30 years for the .444 but for me it will never replace or even rival the 45-70. Don't get me wrong, I consider the .444 a great big bore CB rifle cartridge but I'm trying to avoid the 40 and 43 calibers. If it needs to be bigger than 38 caliber then the 45 will have to do, for now. ;-)

[searcher4851]

45-70 can do anything the 444 can do, but the same can't be said in reverse. As far as the game you mentioned, either caliber will do just fine. I considered the 444 myself on a few occasions, but the for me, 45-70 always won out. I didn't really need to add another caliber to my reloading tasks, and I have 45-70's in various configurations, so it's the cartridge I stuck with.

[starmac]

I have never owned a 444, nor a 35 rem, but since they are interesting and capable lever guns, I have dies, and even brass for the 35 for when I run across a deal on them. lol

[bikerbeans]

huntersdog,

I have Marlin LGs in both 444M and 45-70 govt. I like them both and I have shot critters with both of them. My old, beatup 444s is my favorite, at least right now it is, and is my go to hunting rifle. If I didn't handload then the 45-70 would be my choice, I don't have much fondness for any of the factory loaded 444 ammo.

BB

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think the .45-70 was very much the better in the days when the .444 had a 38in. twist, and those pistol bullets were pretty well inescapable. With a faster twist and heavier, better shaped bullets, the gap has narrowed - if indeed there is a gap.

Good as they are on game, I wouldn't call either of them a better killer than a 275gr. 338 with higher velocity. You can get higher velocity with the .444 before it begins to be seriously uncomfortable. The overall length is usually governed by the lever-action used, and one of the very few wildcat rounds for which I can think of a serious purpose would be a .444 case slightly shortened to permit a longer, lower drag bullet ogive.

[MT Chambers]

With the .444 you can't even load some .44 bullets because of the oal. requirements, which limits bullet length and weight, which is prolly alright because the twist rate is very slow. The 45/70 has it all over the .444 as a big game round. Now if they increased the oal., greatly lengthening bullets, and sped the twist up some, you would have a good argument.

[Bushrat]

I defense or the 444 check out the ballistic coefficnce of a 300 gr 44 bullet and then look to see what 45 bullet would be the same. The 444 has a big edge.

[Lonegun1894]

I don't think comparing the two calibers while limiting the bullet weight to the same weight is a fair comparison of these or any other two calibers. I mean, if BC was the only thing that counted, and we were stuck on a 300gr bullet, then imagine how much higher the BC of a .22" 300gr bullet would be than a .429" 300gr bullet. All I am saying is that using a 300gr bullet in the .45-70 is severely limiting what the caliber is actually capable of, and at least in my book, a lot like using a 110gr bullet in a .30-06 to limit recoil and then claiming that it isn't any more capable than a .30 Carbine. Not saying that those light weight bullets don't have a use, but you can't make a fair comparison, or an educated decision, on these two calibers if you start off with severely handicapping one of them right from the start.

[georgerkahn]

I love and agree with this (Peterbilt vs Kenworth) analogy! For many years, we've (local club members) referred to the .45-70 govt. as "shooting little Volkswagons". Albeit I have a Marlin .444 Guide Gun in my collection -- I've never heard of this caliber being paired with a vehicle...
I've favored the .45-70 as I have moulds for it, making it affordable to shoot, and -- as others noted -- high cost and little selection for the triple-four.
BEST!
georgerkahn

[btroj]

Biggest advantage to a 45-70 is the ability to use much heavier bullets. Not many 420 gr .430 bullets around yet that is a common weight for 45-70.

[too many things]

Its a man thing bigger is better. I don't thing the receiver of the bullet would know the difference

[C. Latch]

I have shot maximum loads in my dad's .444 and if it takes more than that to kill a black bear or elk, I don't want to kill them.

[OverMax]

One major disappointment is the Remington logo embossed on the bottom of a 444s brass. "Then again bigger is always better!!" Thus the 45-70 Rules the Day when compared to that Red-Headed-Step-Child of a cartridge > 444.

[Firebricker]

The reason I have a .444 is I was out of town saw one in a local paper and bought it. Nice rifle but I did not know much about it but liked it. My take on the comparison is for the deer loads most guys seem to be using around 350gr in the 45/70 with that weight I do not think it is much better than the .444. Now if you want to shoot 400gr or heavier the 45/70 wins hands down. The other down side as pointed out is bullet selection for the .444 and not near the choices for moulds.

I had two cut for mine a 300gr designed by Glen Fryex done by Mountain molds and a 330gr by LBT both are great and cover everything I could need. If you do not cast for your rifle right away again the 45/70 has much more selection. Don't get me wrong I love my .444 but I think the 45/70 is more versatile and brass is easier to find. My friend bought a 45/70 used a 350gr factory load and dropped his deer as easy as mine both are great IMO but keep in mind deer and maybe a feral hog is all mine will be used on. And I have only took one big game animal with the .444 we have members here with tons more first hand experience but hope this helps. You might check with "6pt Sitka" I believe he has done a lot of hunting with the ,444 with heavier weight boolits. FB

[MT Gianni]

I defense or the 444 check out the ballistic coefficnce of a 300 gr 44 bullet and then look to see what 45 bullet would be the same. The 444 has a big edge.
Then check out the BC of a 450 gr 44 boolit, oh yea not going to get there. Try to go down to 405 gr nope no comparison there either

[hickfu]

although I would love a 444, I cant shoot a 540gr cast boolit out of one..

[RPRNY]

444 fan here. Love it. But mine's an H&R with a long throat. Some of the lever guns are known to have very short throats that limit bullet weights below 300 grs. Love the 444 and shoot both smokeless and black powder.

But for Big Metal, the 45/70 is king. If you want to put holes in a mulie you can see through, or need a light anti-tank round, the 45/70 single shot is where it's at. The 45/70 lever gun doesn't let you get the full benefit of the monstrous projectiles that can be heaved a very long way with a single shot.

[Beerd]

540 grain bullets? You must think lead is free! ;-)
..

[hickfu]

LOL, I wish lead was free!!! but I do have 1300lbs of COWW alloy. I dont make that many of the 540's, I have some just in case I go to Alaska to visit my sister... down want to be under gunned if I meet a browny..

[Geezer in NH]

Brass for the 45-70 will be more available it seems in todays world of not making any new brass by the major companies.

[6pt-sika]

At one point I had about two dozen rifles chambered for 444 and four or five for the 45-70 . And I shot cast in all but one of the 45-70's ! Personally I like both cartridges and on the deer and bear I hunt there's not much difference . Now I'm down to three 444's and no 45-70 . Think I have about forty molds for the 444 207 grains to 450 grains . When I had the 45-70's I kept molds from 300-550 grains . It was my finding that if one put their mind to it they could do a lot with either cartridge , but it was far easier to get 500 grain plus bullets to shoot decently in the 45-70 then it was to get 400+ grain in the 444 with Ballard 1-20 rifling . You can get the fast twist 444 to shoot the heavy weights but it takes a good bit more effort on the reloaders part. I'll also add in my micro groove 1-38 444's I was able to get bullets up to 375 grains to shoot well enough for hunting .

[6pt-sika]

The 444 and the 45-70 for me have been fun both for hunting and shooting paper . But to be honest if I were to make the trip to Alaska or Canada after big bear moose etc I'm taking a bolt action in 300 Win Mag , 338 Win Mag or possibly the 375 H&H Mag .

[Rick Hodges]

Not much difference at all for the listed game. I had a choice to make and purchased the 45/70. I'm not sorry.

[Petrol & Powder]

It is about the difference from being hit with a Peterbilt vs a Kenworth.

/\ OK, that was funny and true.

For the game animals listed, I don't think it would matter. The 444 does have the advantage of some cast bullets suitable for both 44 mag and 444 Marlin. If I wished to use an existing 44 cal (.430") mold, I might be tempted to select the 444 Marlin as long as I didn't need to add a gas check. However, to take advantage of heavier bullets , the .45-70 may have a bit more versatility.
Beyond the bullet diameter issue .430" vs. .458" +/- a bit, they're pretty close.

[Canuck Bob]

Well I'm a 444 lover. carried one for decades, bought new in the 70's. I am happy with my micro groove and like the Hornady 265 FN loaded stout. Hornady Superperformance 265 FN ammo is great factory stuff if available. I've shot deer, bear, and moose with no complaint in the bush and rockies. I use mine as a camp rifle in grizzly country. The 45-70 is a dandy but give me a 444 any day. This year I'll be tuning it for 285GC hard cast wide meplat loads. The 444 is a perfect deer cartridge as well.

[303carbine]

The 444 with a 265 cast bullet will be a good combination for deer and black bears and even moose.
I have had a lot of 45-70's and it would be my choice for big critters that can bite your ****, I would use a 444 if that's what I had.
I think a 300 grain cast bullet well placed from a 444 will take a bison, it's no slouch in the killing department.
I do prefer the 45-70 for my first choice.

[pull the trigger]

Starline makes brass for the 45-70 and NOT for the 444. That was the deciding factor for me. Brass availability.

[EDG]

The original .45-70 Govt was a single shot round. When loaded in a lever gun it is no longer a .45-70 Govt.
It is no longer capable of shooting 500 grain bullets loaded to 2.9" long. It works weld with lighter flat nosed bullets but it is no longer a 45-70.

The .444 was a goofy design from the get go. The twist should have been faster and the case shorter. But then the stubby bullets would have a long jump to the rifling. With the long .444 case the bullet cannot have much of an ogive.
The .444 would make a much better single shot cartridge.

[starmac]

That is the first I have seen mentioned that a 45/70 is no longer a 45/70. Now I'm going to have to scratch my head a little. lol

[bigted]

well my shoulder will attest to loading the RCBS 530 grain flatpoint that they cal the 45-500. this boolit in a marlin will knock your sox's off and then some. be prepared when you lite this off with a nice charge of RL_7.

that said ... I never recovered the two shots from my short 444 shooting the factory 265 grain flat point from Hornaday ... that went angled from the front shoulder to the front of the off side hip on both animals [nearly the same shot only 2 years apart] and they both hit the dirt with no lead staying in the body of a couple huge Alaskan moose. I loaded some 350's for a guide up there in 45-70. these were going around 1750 FPS and they put the smackdown on a 9.5 foot interior grizzly that took homberage to the presence of his hunter. I asked him for the fully expanded boolit as a trophy but he wanted it for the same reason. this 350 in a 20 to 1 mix took all the fight outta that bear and dug him a nose full of dirt with the one shot.

all in all I like the flatter trajectory of the 444 marlin over the 45-70. I like the heavier boolit selection in 45-70 over the 444. however if I got stuck needing only 1 rifle ... I would feel rite at home with either cal. your call and im betting you will like either about as much as the other. hunting knockdown is where it is at and in a good stout lever ... either will serve you well.

[starmac]

Not neat as much meat on my shoulder as there was even 5 years ago, so inlight of that, I will take your word for the 530 grain boolits. I will just have to be content with my 45/69. lol

[claude]

This will most likely be sacrilege to some, but the 444 while a dandy little cartridge in my experience is much less versatile than the 45-70, basically a solution to a non problem. Sort of on the order of a high maintenance hooker, if you spend enough and stroke it just right it really performs, but it won't do anything the 45-70 won't. Match bullet weights and the trajectory argument sorta looses steam, and the relative scarcity of ammunition and brass is problematic.

But hey, I own one, and I go out strutting with her on my arm every now and again, but the truth is, my 45-70 just has options.

[M-Tecs]

The original .45-70 Govt was a single shot round. When loaded in a lever gun it is no longer a .45-70 Govt.
It is no longer capable of shooting 500 grain bullets loaded to 2.9" long. It works weld with lighter flat nosed bullets but it is no longer a 45-70.


I wonder if Winchester knew that when they chambered it in 1886 Lever gun or Marlin in the original 1895? Neither one has the AOL issues that the current Marlin 1895 has. The current 1895 is a modified 336 action designed for 30/30 length cartridges. The original Winchester 1886 was also chambered in 45/90 and 50/110. The original Marlin was produced from 1895 to 1917. It was also chambered in 45/90.

The orginal load for the 45/70 was 405 grain bullet over 70 grains of BP. This was reduced to 55 for the carbine. The 500 grain bullet came after the Sandy Hook tests in 1879.

Good info for cartridge collectors http://www.oldammo.com/november04.htm

[EDG]

Did you ever try an original 500 grn RN load in one of lever guns? I would not recommend it....
The 500 grain bullet did precede the 1886 Winchester and the original 1895 Marlin...

The U.S. Model 1882 Chaffee-Reese bolt action, magazine rifle fired the .45-70-
405 cartridge from a 27 and 7/8ths inch barrel. The Model 1882 had a five round
magazine located in the butt and employed a magazine cut-off which allowed the rifle’s
employment on single shot. The Model 1882’s magazine employed a novel, if
problematic, ratchet system which separated the cartridges preventing the possibility of a
magazine explosion. Magazine explosions occurred in tubular magazine equipped
weapons when the bullet from one round ignited the primer of the round ahead of it if the
weapon received a significant jolt.

As far as the 45-90 goes have you checked its maximum OAL. It is the same as a 45-70 with the long 500 grain bullet. So what do you get with a 45-90 used with heavy bullets in a repeater when the OAL is no longer than a 45-70? Nothing. The 45-90's advantage is with light bullets.






I wonder if Winchester knew that when they chambered it in 1886 Lever gun or Marlin in the original 1895? Neither one has the AOL issues that the current Marlin 1895 has. The current 1895 is a modified 336 action designed for 30/30 length cartridges. The original Winchester 1886 was also chambered in 45/90 and 50/110. The original Marlin was produced from 1895 to 1917. It was also chambered in 45/90.

The orginal load for the 45/70 was 405 grain bullet over 70 grains of BP. This was reduced to 55 for the carbine. The 500 grain bullet came after the Sandy Hook tests in 1879.

Good info for cartridge collectors http://www.oldammo.com/november04.htm

[M-Tecs]

The original .45-70 Govt was a single shot round. When loaded in a lever gun it is no longer a .45-70 Govt.
It is no longer capable of shooting 500 grain bullets loaded to 2.9" long. It works weld with lighter flat nosed bullets but it is no longer a 45-70.



And how does any of this make a 45/70 with a 405 grain bullet something other than a 45/70? If its not a 45/70 what is it?

[pricedo]

That's not a question, it's a forgone conclusion.
Go big or go home.
45-70 all the way.
My stainless Guide Gun 1895GS pushing a 430 grain hard cast pill approx 1825 fps is the best bear medicine there is.
444 - kids stuff.

[TXGunNut]

That is the first I have seen mentioned that a 45/70 is no longer a 45/70. Now I'm going to have to scratch my head a little. lol

I consider rounds loaded for a BPCR a different cartridge than ones loaded for a strong modern levergun like my Guide Gun but they're both 45-70's in my book. I understand EDG's point but regardless of whether it goes in a Trapdoor or a Guide Gun the headstamp and cartridge case remain the same and that makes it a 45-70. Today's modern loads just show how versatile this old cartridge is, hard to think of a cartridge with more staying power than the grand old 45-70. Reckon the 444 will be around when it's 140 years old? It barely survived it's poorly thought out introduction as a short range brush gun shooting pistol bullets. With a faster twist bbl and a good heavy boolit it is IMHO a desirable big bore levergun, easily available brass would make it even more desirable.

[Beerd]

just have to add a mis-quote from GoodOlBoy in another thread:

"...............the only thing you are doing is increasing the size of the divot on the other side of your target."
..

[Firebricker]

EDG, I have to respectfully disagree about the .444 case being too long. It could use more powder capacity with certain powders. The Marlin chambers could definitely be improved to allow bullets not having to be seated as deep. FB

[Markbo]

Like most topics there are some very strong opinions here that verge on being fanatical, i.e. completely disounting anyone else's opinions. Whatever works for you-great. That doesnt mean anyone else's experiences are moot.

I have lever guns in both. I have only shot deer, hogs and Javelina with mine. With the .444 everything was bang flop. Several times I have shot deer with 300gr bullets in the .45-70 that sustained massive damage but did not die for a long time. One I remember the only reason I found it in the heavy brush was it got its intestines tangled up and couldn't get away. Another had its offside leg blown clean off...it was dragging by a string of skin and it went 200 yards or so.

The first example was not a great shot but the second was a lung shot. Other times an animal would be hit and would be dead and motionless before I could even see it after recoil. Why? I dont know. But I would not hesitate to use either again. FWIW I have never recovered a bullet so I personally have no reasonable use for the super heavy 500+gr or even the heavy 400+gr bullets as we have not had grizz or wild buffalo in Texas for a long long time. Should I ever get the opportunity I'll load up some 405gr .45-70 and be on my way, but I will never fear being undergunned with a .444 in my hands.

Now a .41-.444 sure piques my interest!


....Same reason I built a .41-444 on a Marlin 336. I have within a hair the same results as the 444 Marlin....

Have you ever done a write up here about it. I have a bunch of questions for you if not that I could PM you to keep this thread on track.

[Geezer in NH]

Not for nothing but 444 marlin fans buy brass now as it seems all brass for non-popular carts are not getting made by the big guys anymore , same as the 350 Rem mag owners but that seem the way it is

[reivertom]

It would be easier to sell a 45-70 if you want to switch guns.

[TXGunNut]

Once before when this (or was it a similar?) question came up somebody brought up the "cool factor". The 444 is a (comparatively) modern cartridge with an interesting story and a small but loyal following. It's also obscure enough that the average shooter knows little or nothing about it.

[thegatman]

45/70 is the way to go. Big boolit knocks them down and great selection.

[EDK]

45 70 has available brass and off the shelf boolit moulds and components.
444 brass can be a problem and custom moulds get pricey.
I've had various 45 70s in the past...currently an 1895 Cowboy and an un-ported (another controversy!) Guide Gun, both JM.

[RPRNY]

45 70 has available brass and off the shelf boolit moulds and components.
444 brass can be a problem and custom moulds get pricey.
I've had various 45 70s in the past...currently an 1895 Cowboy and an un-ported (another controversy!) Guide Gun, both JM.

No custom moulds required unless you are after 325 gr plus bullets. It's a .429 " bullet; there are a lot of them.

[ballistim]

I have two 45-70's and they are great, intend to buy a 444 someday as well, so my solution is to own both. Brass availability for 444 is a factor & wish Starline would add it to their line. I already have heavy design molds for my .44 mag rifle which would be perfect for a 444.

[KBP]

EDG! We need a little more detail on how a 45/70 Govt. round changes into something else when put into a lever gun. I have never noticed this change!

[Three44s]

I have neither though I do have the .45-70 in a Contender carbine barrel but don't count it because I understand you have to load it down to around Trap door levels .....

I have contemplated them in the Marlin for some time but have not decided conclusively.

I do lean towards the .45-70 in the Marlin and here's my reasoning:

Cast bullets work in a certain range of pressures and when you exceed that you are adding to your leading woes.

The .444 is designed for more pressure ....... and I believe you are pushing the envelope harder with it than you are with the .45-70.

Besides the pressure vs. lead strength issue, I also am impressed with the added bullet weight capability of the .45-70

I was not aware of the brass availability so that tips the scales more towards the larger option.

For mold selection .... I have .44 cal. molds and a friend has the .458 stuff covered amply .... that's a wash for me.

But, I am still thinking on this.

Three 44s

[Dave18]

45-70 can do anything the 444 can do, but the same can't be said in reverse

had both yrs back, the 444 got sold, the other lasted many yrs before selling it,

[MT Chambers]

Sometimes I load the 555gr. flat pt. in my 45/70 Levergun, sure hits like a 45/70 esp. on my shoulder.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

When it comes down to it, I always say, "Get in the ballpark, then pick the closest military cartridge". The next best thing is a military parent case necked up or down.

[HPT]

Is there really that much of a difference using the 45-70 over the 444 Marlin out deer, elk and black bear hunting? A good cast .44 bullets should do very well and all 3 of the big game mentioned above. Any 444 Marlin lovers here?

Apparently there are some 444 lovers out there - look what's listed in the 2015 Marlin Catalog Model 444!

[Kevinakaq]

Picked up 80 percent Marlin 444S at a local pawn just today and have a Handi in same caliber. Also have a 45-70 Handi and wouldn't hesistate to pick up either caliber to feed or defend life. Anything that keeps coming after a well place shot from either....well that is what trees and slower moving party members are for!

[Dthunter]

one thing I just cannot get over is the case design of the 444 marlin. Why the heck would you design the case to be so close to the diameter of the bullet!? In EVERY SINGLE CASE I have witnessed, the reloaded case has to ostrich neck to accept the seated bullet! This leave a ridiculous looking loaded round! Just the smallest amount of design and planning in the 444 would have made this non existent.

The 45-70 is a little more of everything, yes, and the case design,taper allows for the case to properly be sized and accept a seated bullet without distorting the case/neck profile. This definitely has an effect on potential alignment for consistent and accurate shooting.

Other than those issues, the 444 will take any of the game listed on this thread, no problem. The 45-70 will just do it a little easier.

[btroj]

I find that a 444 seems to recoil more than a 45-70 for same bullet weight/velocity. Don't know why but the 444 seems to have a harsher, sharper recoil to it. Might be stock design differences.

[HangFireW8]

When limited by the modern Marlin lever action's COAL, there's not a lot of difference between the two in the field. In a proper BPCR rifle, the 45/70 is the better long range performer, no question about that. In Marlin levers, the 444 is a little flatter shooting out to the point you shouldn't be taking shots with either in a Marlin Lever. In trying to get a proper comparison, the fact that both have been made with MicroGroove and "Ballard" rifling complicates things a bit.

I have both, from North Haven CT that is, and I like both. A lot! While 45/70 vs 444 is a valid question for a prospective buyer, it kind of boggles my mind the attitude of some of those who answer, but the same thing happens in 9mm vs 45ACP or .308 vs .30/06 Springfield or whatever.

As for recoil, both of mine wear 1" Pachmayr Decelerator pads, installed by me. :) I also put a 2.5 degree draft on the heel, so it doesn't dig into my chest.

As for game, I've taken most of my deer with the 444, simply because I've owned it longer and got it sorted out first, and never recovered a bullet, ever. I have no complaints. If you put a scope on either, buy high quality, and keep it low power with a good long eye relief. Trust me on that last one.

[nicodiesel]

i have a winchester timber carbine in 444 and a henry 45-70. both great guns. i like the 45-70 for shooting heavy bullets further but in midsized games within 200 yds i really think that both get the job done as good and shoot flat enough.

[northmn]

I have had 45-70's on and off over the years and have kept the Uberti Remington rolling block in 45-70. Had a 50-90 once but it was really too much gun on a too light rifle. The lever 45-70's can and have been loaded up to a level such that I would not personally want to shoot. The 45-70 RB is a fun rifle to shoot with BP and I don't see a 444 made for that purpose. Took out a deer with the 330 grain Gould HP bullet and it performed very well. BP Load. Had a Marlin 95 CB and it was almost too light for the cartridge. Both the 444 and the 45-70 are really too much rifle for what I hunt. 35 Remington drops deer very very well as does a 30-30 adn my 38-55 Marlin CB. When one stated that the difference is the size of the divit on the other side that also holds for the 35 Remington or hotter loaded 38-55. Dead is dead and the 445-70 never gave me any reason to put up with the extra recoil and cost of shooting. I know of no other Marlin user more dedicated than 6-Point Sitka, but his comment about using other rifles for big stuff struck home. Sometime compare the downrange ballistics of the 35 Whlen to a 444 and the advantages of these big bores that lose velocity so fast wanes.

DP

[W.R.Buchanan]

I personally have never been a fan of the .444. I consider it to be a .44 Magnum/Magnum. I know there are a few boolits out there in the 340 gr range, but that is only getting started in the .45-70 range.

There are no 400 gr 44 cal. boolits I know of. There damn sure isn't any 500 gr .44 cal. boolits and we can even keep going from there.

They are in two completely different classes. The .45-70 in 1900's form had already taken every animal on earth. The .444 never will.

Now the .45-70 can be loaded up to near .458 Win Mag power, and even well below that will fully penetrate any animal you can shoot. (I don't know about whales?)

On the lower end I shoot mostly RCBS 45-300 GC's in mine for Short Range Silhouette. These are running around 1350-1400 fps and would certainly take down any whitetail or black bear that has ever walked the earth. I can shoot 40 of them in less than 2 hours at a shoot and be none the worse for wear. The Gun (1895 CB 26") only weighs 7lb 1 oz so shooting heavier loads has taken a back seat.

I was told by Doug Turnbull to install a Mercury Recoil Reducer and that would take most of the bite out of it, and I may do that soon.

I also shoot my 1894 CB .44 Magnum with 265 gr H&G 03's in Solid Form (as opposed to HP'd from the same Mihec mould). and those are running around 1600 fps from the 24" bbl. That gun weighs 7lbs 8 oz. (go figure) and I shoot 40 rounds in a morning no problem as well. Both the guns look, handle and run well due to extensive internal and external finish work done by me. (not that hard)

Point being I personally have no need for a .444 as I have all the bases covered with these other two guns. For any game that I would use a .444 for, I could easily use the .44 for. Anything bigger I could use the .45-70.

The biggest animal I will probably ever shoot would be an Elk or Moose. My .45-70 would work on either as long as the range was below 200 yards. When a 250 gr SWC with go clean thru an Elk at 800fps I think my .44 rifle will easily do twice that at less than 100 yards.

As a result I have never even considered a .444 for the above reasons. Doesn't mean it isn't a good cartridge, after all it does shoot, and people have killed game with it, and they still make it,,, so it can't be all bad.

My.02

Randy

[Markbo]

I have both. Have killed game and varmints with both. Nothing ever needed shooting twice. And I dont need 400gr bullets on the .444. Anything south of 300 can be pushed hard enough to take any medium sized game alive. And thats what I consider it - a medium sized game animal caliber. Not a Bison & Grizz caliber. So for my use it has been 100% effective even on big hogs. One shot DRT everytime.

Oh...and I always liked the looks of the .44 magnum magnum. I like it :D

[RPRNY]

The 444 is like a 44-70 Express. Lighter bullets, faster. And like the old Express cartridges, it is sorta kinda maybe obsolete. It is in effect a 44 Super Magnum. Now, having said that, as a 44 Super Magnum, it is a great cartridge for a lever gun. 200 yard hitting power, makes a big hole. What's not to love? Mine is a Handi Rifle and, frankly, it's just neither here nor there. I would much prefer a 444 in a Marlin. So if Remington ever gets its act together and starts making them again in Ballard cut barrels with a 1:20 twist, I'd get one in a minute.

The 45-70 on the other hand is, in my opinion, not ideally suited to a lever gun. The 45-70 starts getting all rock-star at 500 grains. It's man-portable artillery and it really wants a falling block or rolling block (mine is) 30" + barrel and 12 lbs or more. Admittedly, I only shoot black powder and paper patched big fellows, but in my view, that's what the 45-70 is all about.

I'd rather the 444 in a lever gun, but the 45-70 is just more fun as a cartridge.

[tdoyka]

basically none.

i have a 45-70 in a handi-rifle and i have a 444 marlin in tc encore(23" MGM barrel). i'd rather have my 444 than my 45-70, just my opinion.

yes, the 444 does shoot a little faster. yes, the 45-70 can handle bullets out to 500+ grains. yes, they both kill(even grizzly/brown bears) on the north american continent. you have to decide whats better for you.

me, its the 444 marlin. from the lyman 429105(130gr rn) to 455gr safari grade( http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/444-marlin/133672-next-test-455gr-sg-310gr-lead-head-325gr-mm-220gr-30cal-nosler-partition-4.html ), it has my attention. i've only used 200gr xtp and 265gr hornady fn in it before i got to cast boolits. now i'm shooting the 230gr wc, 250gr mihec hp, 275gr ranch dog and the 280gr wfn gc. i do want to try the 350gr ranch dog, beartooth's 405gr wln dcg and the 417gr huckleberry.

i hunt deer and black bear(well not so much bear) as well as shooting targets(for fun). i know the 275gr rd can do around 2300fps, but i keep it down to around 2000fps. i can probably get it down to 1800fps and still shot a deer a 150 yards away.

also i can use my 44 mag to shoot these boolits as well.

my 45-70 only has 405gr fbfn at 1400fps, but i do wish to test it like i do my 444. its all a question of taste, 444 or 45-70?

[Hickok]

My thoughts.....like arguing about the .270 Winchester vs. the 30/06.:popcorn:

[Clay M]

Got my first .45/70 Marlin in '71 and my Marlin .444 in '73 I have killed most of my biggest deer with the .45/70 over the years. After having used both, I like the .405 win better than either one as a hunting rifle. I now hunt with a Ruger #1 or a 95 win in .405 .
I enjoy shooting that round with cast bullets. I would say the Ruger is my very favorite smokeless cast bullet rifle.

[Markbo]

My thoughts.....like arguing about the .270 Winchester vs. the 30/06.:popcorn:

Oh thats an easy one! :D

[Hickok]

Oh thats an easy one! :DHehee, I have to grin when you said that. I bet I am thinking the same as you! Didn't want to get a war started by picking my favorite. Elmer tried to tell Jack the same thing!!![smilie=1:

[Clay M]

Hehee, I have to grin when you said that. I bet I am thinking the same as you! Didn't want to get a war started by picking my favorite. Elmer tried to tell Jack the same thing!!![smilie=1:

Now, now, don't pick on the .270 It is also in the top three of my favorite cartridges.
I have killed mucho game with that cartridge.

[tdoyka]

i want war!!!![smilie=l::kidding:

[TXGunNut]

The 45-70 on the other hand is, in my opinion, not ideally suited to a lever gun. The 45-70 starts getting all rock-star at 500 grains. It's man-portable artillery and it really wants a falling block or rolling block (mine is) 30" + barrel and 12 lbs or more. Admittedly, I only shoot black powder and paper patched big fellows, but in my view, that's what the 45-70 is all about.

I'd rather the 444 in a lever gun, but the 45-70 is just more fun as a cartridge. -RPRNY

Best analysis of the 444 I've read or heard but I disagree with you about the 45-70 in a levergun, I think it's pretty outstanding. Only problem is we're talking about two different 45-70's. There's the modern smokeless 45-70 that lets a rifle like the Marlin be all it can be and then there's the grand old BP 45-70 with a case stuffed full of Holy Black and fired in guns like the ones that nearly made the buffalo extinct. In my opinion they have very little in common other than the case but they're both awesome cartridges.

[Hickok]

Now, now, don't pick on the .270 It is also in the top three of my favorite cartridges.
I have killed mucho game with that cartridge.:bigsmyl2: Been at hunting camp before, and when you through the 7mm Mag into the discussion/argument it really gets heated! I like all 3 calibers and have killed deer with all them!:lol:

[Clay M]

Even the "One Track .270 Jack" also had nothing but praise for the .30/06..;)

I do like both and feel there is valid reason to own both.

O'Conner was an avid sheep hunter. That was his favorite, and he felt like the .270 win was the ultimate sheep rifle.

In his book The Hunting Rifle, he talks about killing ten Grizzly bears with the .30/06 and what a great cartridge it is.

Well enough off topic nonsense.Carry on with the discussion of how the .444 and the .45/70 are well.. whatever.

[Kevinakaq]

Doesn't matter which is better because even if one is found to be perfect we will immediatly start looking for next perfect caliber...

And i most certainly count myself in on this illogical behavior.

[Clay M]

I could have lived my life nicely with nothing but a .30/06 as a hunting rifle, but I have had a lot of fun over the years experimenting with different calibers. That includes the .444Marlin and the .45/70

[Markbo]

My own personal experience - not heresay - is that the .270 is resposible for more wounded and lost deer than all other calibers combined. That is just what I have seen in all the deer camps all across Texas that I have hunted in.

Now on the other end of that spectrum, I have shot well over 100 deer (& lots of other game) with the .25-06 and have never lost a single animal. Not one. If they dont fall right over the deer normally take 4 or 5 steps and keel over dead. In fact I have only ever had to shoot one animal twice once. A big Mouflon Ram that I hit a little too high the first shot.

I thought all those years maybe I was misremembering so got a .270 several years ago. Hunted two seasons. Shot 11 deer. Had to track most of them WAY over 100 yds. One maybe 50yds, one probably 1/4 mile and one we never did find. Completely lost confidence in the round. Rebarreled that Savage to .25-06 and now back on plan A.

[M-Tecs]

Caliber is far less important than bullet selection or shot placement.

[Markbo]

I personally have killed more than 50 deer with the .270 . All one shot kills.
It was my meat rifle back in the day.
I used a Steyr Professional rifle...The Best.
But as I see, your post is bull ****.:lol:
If you cannot kill well with a .270 ,it is because you simply cannot shoot.

Except that this was many, many hunters and I doubt they were all bad shooters. Though tbat is possible. But in my case before and after all my kills are clean and quick, so your conclusion is bull****. :p

[RPRNY]

Unnecessary Roughness. Both teams. 15 yard penalties.

[TXGunNut]

My own personal experience - not heresay - is that the .270 is resposible for more wounded and lost deer than all other calibers combined. That is just what I have seen in all the deer camps all across Texas that I have hunted in.-Markbo

Seems I've heard that about the 30-30 and the 243 over the years. I've killed truckloads of deer and other critters with more than a few different cartridges and I firmly believe it's not about the cartridge. It's about shot placement, caliber, bullet performance and to a minor extent velocity.

[Lonegun1894]

Oh thats an easy one! :D

Yep! Everyone knows there's more molds available for the .30-06 than the .270, and that makes the 06 the clear winner. And that's even if we were to ignore all the other evidence that shows that no matter how many lies any of us might be tempted to believe, the 06 is ALWAYS the clear winner, with the .270 being just a small caliber "wannabe".

There, how's that for starting a war? :)

[Kevinakaq]

My own personal experience - not heresay - is that the .270 is resposible for more wounded and lost deer than all other calibers combined. That is just what I have seen in all the deer camps all across Texas that I have hunted in.

that is like saying I have seen more 'arseholes' in bmw's than any other car and then blaming the automobile for the skills/attitude of the driver. I truely don't think the car is the problem...

Any present company driving bmw's excluded ofcourse...lol!

Oh forgot to mention I love my 45-70's and 444's. Two of each - one each in H&R and one each in Marlin. 45-70 gets the nod because of variety of weights and the mistique of its history.

[Hickok]

While we are discussing 444 vs 45/70, (I have a 45/70) I recall when a fellow came up to me proud and bold about his new .264 Winchester Magnum and asked me what I thought about the caliber. With tongue in check, just as serious as I could be, I told him I thought it would be a good rifle for shooting goats and stray dogs. I had a hard time keeping a straight face and not laughing.

Man oh man, he about withered on the spot. You could see the air coming out of him, as there were several of us shooting buddies standing together. The roar of laughing and the razing didn't help.

I finally had to tell him I was only kidding and it was all in fun. From then on the .264 Mag got the nickname goat rifle.:bigsmyl2:

[Clay M]

Seems I've heard that about the 30-30 and the 243 over the years. I've killed truckloads of deer and other critters with more than a few different cartridges and I firmly believe it's not about the cartridge. It's about shot placement, caliber, bullet performance and to a minor extent velocity.[/QUOTE]

I never had any problems with the .30/30,.44/40, or .25 /35
I only lost one deer that I can remember and that was shooting a .30/06
The bullet hit a strand of barbed wire and was deflected. I couldn't see the wire when I shot.
Around where I live, most hunters are not shooters. They buy one box of ammo to hunt with some years, maybe check their rifle and hunt.

It is definitely shot placement.

Funny thing my neighbor says a .243 is inadequate for deer, but uses a .22/250 for deer hunting.

[Elkins45]

My own personal experience - not heresay - is that the .270 is resposible for more wounded and lost deer than all other calibers combined. That is just what I have seen in all the deer camps all across Texas that I have hunted in.

Now on the other end of that spectrum, I have shot well over 100 deer (& lots of other game) with the .25-06 and have never lost a single animal. Not one. If they dont fall right over the deer normally take 4 or 5 steps and keel over dead. In fact I have only ever had to shoot one animal twice once. A big Mouflon Ram that I hit a little too high the first shot.

I thought all those years maybe I was misremembering so got a .270 several years ago. Hunted two seasons. Shot 11 deer. Had to track most of them WAY over 100 yds. One maybe 50yds, one probably 1/4 mile and one we never did find. Completely lost confidence in the round. Rebarreled that Savage to .25-06 and now back on plan A.

Not sure how a 0.020" smaller bullet makes a rifle a better killer? 25/06, 270, 280, 30/06 are all essentially the same cartridge with only 0.051" difference in bullet diameter from smallest to largest. That's 5/100 of an inch and that's just not significant unless you start loading one with FMJ or something like that. I've never lost a deer with a 270. Maybe they were selling defective bullets in your part of the country at the time?

To answer the OP's question the 45/70 has two big advantages. 1) brass and ammo is easier to find 2) you can easily load up to 500 grain bullets if you like.

[M-Tecs]

With a firearm I have killed about 150 deer. I have lost one. On a couple I had difficult recoveries due to the fact I selected bullets designed for Moose and Elk. One was with a 270 and the other was with 338 Win Mag. Shot placement and proper bullet performance is king. Within reason caliber is far less important. The two I shot with a 25/20 died as quick as the couple I shoot with the 375 H&H.

[Clay M]

I always liked the .270 win because it is flat shooting with the 130gr bullet.
I sight in 2.5" high 100 yds and shoot at the top of the backbone at 300yds.
The longest kill I have made with the rifle was 420 yds.
I always used Nosler Ballistic tips loaded to just over 3000fps.
Most of the deer went down in their tracks.
Never lost one.
The reason I know I have killed at least 50 deer with the rifle is because I loaded 80 rounds back in 86 and now have less than 20 left.
I only used a round once in a while to make sure of the zero.

[Markbo]

What is that old saying about beware the man with one gun... ;)

[Clay M]

The reason I bought the Steyr is because back in the 80's,I got tired of buying rifles with bad barrels.
It was always a flip of the coin. Some guns had good barrels, and some bad.
We have three Steyrs and they will all shoot sub MOA.
The way they make their barrels makes it very hard to get a bad one.

[tdoyka]

i have used both('06 and 270) and i really like the 270. i use it in my ruger #1 rifle along with 130gr nosler bt and a charge of imr4320. the 15-20 deer only two have exited. they are 125 yards(roughly) and 365 yards(roughly), both took out the lungs and heart and were drt. the other s ran about 20-50 yards with only an entrance wound. heart and lungs were also destroyed.
i have used the '06 and they always got the lungs and heart and left a massive exit wound. i used 150gr hornady rn, 180gr hornady rn, 165gr hornady sp, 165gr speer sp and a 125gr seirra hpfn.

but we are going off topic, the 444 or the 45-70. i vote for the 444.