Non-Magnums, Fixed sights and other weird afflictions

[Petrol & Powder]

At the risk of winning the worst pun of the year on a cast bullet forum : I fear I don't "fit the mold". :groner:


I prefer 38 Special over .357 magnum. I have both and can shoot both but I have little desire to play with the longer & louder casing. I load .44 magnum brass well below .44 magnum levels and miss my old 44 Special.

By choice, the majority of my handguns have fixed sights and I like them that way.

I think a 4" barrel on a revolver is plenty long and I have no desire to carry a 6" barreled revolver. I understand the benefit of longer sight radius and more velocity and even have some long barreled handguns but they are not my favorites.

And then there is the oddity of the 3" barreled revolver. I recently saw a post on this forum that displayed an expertly modified GP-100 with a barrel cut down to 3". I admired that work and it reminded me of my affinity for combat style revolvers with 3" barrels.
Back in the 1980's the FBI issued the S&W model 13 with a round-butt grip and a 3" heavy barrel. Now, I don't look to the FBI as some great authority on guns but in my opinion they got that one absolutely right. I've always felt that the 3" barreled, 38/357 DA revolver was an outstanding self defense tool.
Just enough barrel to get a decent sight radius and some velocity. Small enough to carry & conceal. Strong enough to be reliable and light enough to carry daily unnoticed. Easy to draw and defend. And you get a full length ejector rod without a lot of extra barrel weight.


I guess my love of odd revolvers completes my overall weirdness.

Am I alone in my weirdness? Is there a support group out there for outcasts like me?
:drinks:

[nagantguy]

My wife agrees with you 100% I don't even buy double action revolvers any more cause she'll just take em to the local Smitty and have em bobed to 3 inches. She's got a matching set of sp101s one with her maiden name engraved on the cylinder and the other with her married name, first and last so I don't think its mine. I've caught her a few times looking at my 3 inch number ultra carry as well. The .44 special bulldog with three inch pipe I sold to my brother cause he loved it, she got it as a wedding gift, with her name on the frame. I just can't win.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Now that you mention it I only own a few adjustable sighted handguns. They are really only beneficial out past 50 yards, and I don't fire a handgun at that distance very often. The problem with handguns is my fixed sighted SA's have tiny little narrow front sights and the adjustable sighted models have wide front sights. It should be the other way around. I've ordered work at Cylinder and Slide to have a fixed sighted SA Colt revolver with a front sight made wide .01" to .011" and the rear notch cut accordingly. While shooting past 50 yards with adjustable sight I'd prefer a narrow front sight for a finer sight picture on the target farther away. Doesn't this make sense? When shooting up close say 5 to 10 yards I'm drawing and firing a little quicker and the tiny narrow front sight is more difficult to pick up. I've got a fixed sighted Colt SA that is zeroed at 100 yards with a narrow front sight in .44 Special that is a good shooter, but my .44 Mag SBH does shoot flatter and I can hit much better out past 100 yards with the flatter shooter magnum.

I've seen hot loaded magnums applied at short range 5 to 10 yards and in my opinion they performed worse than a simple lower velocity heavy boolit would have. So I'm with you Petrol & Powder. Fixed sights, lower velocity for most revolver work is the correct combination.

Those are going to flame you for this post will can flame me too.

[Lefty Red]

Preaching to the choir!

If it wasn't for my Henry 357 Big Boy's pure hate of 38's and must use 357 brass for everything casted, I don't think I would have any. I like the 38's and actually look for 38 only weapons over 357/38s. I don't buy the , "well you can use 357 if you have to!" argument. I have six, one gallon bags of 38 brass. I don't see me ever running out since I have YET to throw a piece of brass out due to splitting. If i "need" a 357, I am sure my 44's or 45's can handle it.

My Ruger BH Flat Top in 44 Special will be the last handgun I will part with! Yes I have a Red Hawk, standard version, in 5.5" coming soon, but only because I got it a great price. And because I literally can pour my 44 magnum brass out on the floor and make "brass angels"! My 44 special brass is locked and insured by Loudre's of London.

As long as I can see the front sight, I can hit it! In fact, my eye focus easier with the shorter barrel. Maybe glasses or laser surgery can fix it, but I can't tell any differance in my groups witha 4/3" barrel over a 6/7.5" barrels. And another reason I got the standard Red Hawk, the shorter 5.5" barrel. Will save up and send it to Bowen's for the Kenda option before my son graduates! I miss my old Taurus 82 with its heavy 3" barrel. Made on abandoned S&W machinary in Brazil, it was when Taurus made good handguns.

Jerry

[nicholst55]

I recently bought a used 4" HB Model 10 S&W that is rapidly becoming my favorite DA revolver. It just feels right in my hand - the weight and balance of it are just superb! It shoots right where it points for me, and shooting 150-200 rounds of .38 Spl is more fun than doing the same with Linebaugh-level .45 Colt or full power .44 Magnum. I also enjoy my .44 Spl M24 S&W more than I do full power .44 Mags or .45 Colt.

As far as the sights on SA revolvers go, I understand that a lot of the Cowboy shooters have had their revolvers modified such - a wider front sight and a wider channel in the topstrap of the revolver. Some manufacturers have begun to offer models equipped that way from the factory. I have an also recently acquired original Ruger Vaquero that could benefit from that treatment. I haven't even fired it yet, but I anticipate having trouble with the sights on that gun.

[paul h]

Whatever trips your trigger (keeping the puns rolling)

I've definately grown (or is that aged) to appreciate less muzzle blast and recoil. For years my 480 was the only revolver I shot extensively and while I shot my plinking loads more than full patch loads, 310 gr @ 1000 fps is still a pretty potent load.

Then I rediscovered my .357's, and found bulk once fired 38 sp brass was cheap and plentiful. I also had a variety of shotgun powders and found it wasn't that hard to find a load with each powder for driving wadcutters. I cut down one of my 050 molds to a two lube mold, and what do you know, lead last a lot longer when shooting 120 gr bullets than 310's, and same goes with powder when using 3-4 gr charges vs. 10 grs.

I still prefer the mid range barrel lengths, 5 to 5 1/2" for their balance and sight radius, but my next revolver will be a 4" gp-100. I also still prefer adjustable sights to fine tune POI, but they aren't something I constantly fiddle with. I do regret not picking up sever S&W model 10 police trade ins when they were dirt cheap. Their availability seemed to dry up just as I came into some cash, funny how that works :cry:

[Lefty Red]

As for fixed sighted handguns, I has them! Come to think of it, I haven't had a S&W or Ruger fixed sighted DA 38 revolver that didn't shoot POA with a 150-158gr bullet going 800-950 fps. :)

Jerry

I forgot about that old S&W Model 10 with a pencil thin barrel that was regulated with 130 gr bullets.!

[Char-Gar]

You ain't all that odd. You think like the fellow who lives in my house.

[Outpost75]

Six For Sure!

124163

[Petrol & Powder]

It's good to know I'm not alone !

[smilie=s:

[5.7 MAN]

I am a 45 colt guy, but I agree with every thing you said! I let 3" model 13 slip through my fingers years ago and really regret it now.

[williamwaco]

Am I alone in my weirdness?



I agree with most of your opinions. I don't think any of them are weird.

[rking22]

I'm there with you. rebluing a M36 right now and yesterday a 200th year police service six followed me home. they join 2 more 36s and a M10 4 inch heavy. I do have a 357, very early 4 inch GP100, and a 5.5 inch Redhawk in 44. Have to confess one M36 is a 3inch Adj sight and a 696 3 inch are my only 3 inchers , YET:)
Fixed sights work just fine , I do like a little light around my front blade. I like to find a cheap M36 with bad surface finish so I can open the groove and rust blue for kicks and giggles. A 2inch 38 is way more accurate than the average person believes. Spent today playin with the service 6, 4 inch 38 fixed sights ,, fun fun fun.

[Petrol & Powder]

I am a 45 colt guy, but I agree with every thing you said! I let 3" model 13 slip through my fingers years ago and really regret it now.
Don't have a Model 13 but I do have a 3", round-butt model 65 which is its stainless steel twin. One of my all time favorite guns.

[Dan Cash]

I like them all. Have several 2 3/4 and 3 inch Smiths with fixed and adjustable sights. The use dictates the barrel length for me but adjustable sights are immaterial as far as I am concerned. I don't object to the thin sights of yester year and the fat modern ones are ok too as long as I can find light around it in the rear sight. The slender front is to me, preferable for precision. For defensive work at 7 to 15 yards, let me find the front of the pistol and I am good and the aggressor is not.

[shoot-n-lead]

If you do not understand or appreciate the affinity for adjustable sights...you have obviously steered clear of the Ruger Vaquero's and New Vaquero's...as MANY of them will NOT shoot to the sights, regardless of load. I am not a newby to them and currently own multiple examples of which none would shoot to the sights. Most folks don't want to chance the hassle of having to deal with this to get a gun that will eventually be accurate with only one load...and that is IF they are a reloader.

[High Desert Hunter]

Just picked up a 3" GP100, fixed sights, and I am loving it, I shoot mostly magnums with the 358156 and 359640 bullets I cast, but I am experimenting to find a 38 level load for the fun of it. I rarely ever load my FA 454 up to 454 levels, a 340 at 1100-1200fps will shoot end to end on anything I'll ever hunt. My 44 Mag gets a lot of 250s loaded over Unique for an easy recoiling fun to shoot load, my Flattop 45 Colt gets a 290gr over Unique, and in reality is the only load I really need for North America, whether it be 2 legged or 4.

[FlatTop45LC]

One of my most used guns for 10 years was my great grandfather's heavy barrel M10. It is a really wonderful gun!

[rintinglen]

You're mad, mad I tell you!
Me too.
But don't tell nobody--it's contagious and there's enough competition for good guns already.

[Petrol & Powder]

If you do not understand or appreciate the affinity for adjustable sights...you have obviously steered clear of the Ruger Vaquero's and New Vaquero's...as MANY of them will NOT shoot to the sights, regardless of load. I am not a newby to them and currently own multiple examples of which none would shoot to the sights. Most folks don't want to chance the hassle of having to deal with this to get a gun that will eventually be accurate with only one load...and that is IF they are a reloader.
I've had a couple of guns with fixed sights that wouldn't shoot where you pointed them but they've been few and far between. Maybe I've been lucky but the vast majority of my guns with fixed sights do exactly what they're made to do.
I understand adjustable sights and have guns equipped with them. I wouldn't call adjustable sights fragile but I will say that fixed sights are tougher. I've seen a lot of people turn their noses up when examining a handgun with fixed sights and pass it over as if it was somehow grossly inferior. I'm glad they do, leaves more for me!

[GoodOlBoy]

My favorite carry gun was a snubnose 38 special. My favorite caliber is a "cowboy" loaded 45LC. I am right there with you. My days of heavy recoil and manglums is far behind me, and I ain't never been one to like the fancy dancy ultra modern stuff. And if my eyes weren't going fixed iron sights would be more than good enough for me.


GoodOlBoy

[StrawHat]

4" barrel and fixed sights are a wonderful combination. Add an "N" frame to the mix and chamber it with some non magnum cartridge and you have perfection.

Something like this, (not mine) chambered in 45 ACP.

http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b434/huntershooter/resized%20handguns/22.jpg (http://s1043.photobucket.com/user/huntershooter/media/resized%20handguns/22.jpg.html)

If I were still wearing a badge today, this would be what I would prefer on my side.

[Lefty Red]

Come to think of it, I have really only messed with DA fixed sighted revolvers and I can't remember one that wouldn't shoot POA. Now the SAA clones, that is a different story!

[smkummer]

I have 4 30 cal. military ammo cans filled with 38 special ammunition. wadcutter, reduced cowboy, standard and plus P. More double action Colts than I can count. Most with fixed sights and bought from $150-on up. Most of the fixed sighted guns were on target with a 6 oclock hold. Some needed a little sight bending or opening of one side of the rear notch to be spot on. Just bought a 6 in. army special with python stocks on it for $389 shipped, sold the stocks for $225. Aluminum cans at 10 yards, V-8 cans at 25 yards and metal plates at 15-25 yards. Lee 1000, six cavity molds and lead ww from a tire shop that sells to me for what a scrap yard pays. Raw cost to load is about a nickel per round. Most of my brass was from a police range that was sweep up 20 years ago, I have a lifetime of brass.
Did I mention I like 38 special?

[Lefty Red]

I have 4 30 cal. military ammo cans filled with 38 special ammunition. wadcutter, reduced cowboy, standard and plus P. More double action Colts than I can count. Most with fixed sights and bought from $150-on up. Most of the fixed sighted guns were on target with a 6 oclock hold. Some needed a little sight bending or opening of one side of the rear notch to be spot on. Just bought a 6 in. army special with python stocks on it for $389 shipped, sold the stocks for $225. Aluminum cans at 10 yards, V-8 cans at 25 yards and metal plates at 15-25 yards. Lee 1000, six cavity molds and lead ww from a tire shop that sells to me for what a scrap yard pays. Raw cost to load is about a nickel per round. Most of my brass was from a police range that was sweep up 20 years ago, I have a lifetime of brass.
Did I mention I like 38 special?

I am SO JEALOUS! Every older 38 S&W or Colt I can find around here is >$600!

[tazman]

I love having great quality handguns that are strong enough to handle high velocity loads. This means that since I never load anything but light loads, I never have to worry about being right on the edge with one. My 357mag handles 38 special loads well. When I owned a 44 mag it was consistently fed 44 specials.

[Hickok]

A fixed sight handgun that shoots to point of aim is a pure joy! They are tougher than a steel brick!

[Shooter6br]

Best fixed sight I have is a Model 10 HB police trade in

[nekshot]

I hear you loud and clear! I always said I only need 1 shot (to see where it hit) and I am off happily shooting, adjusting to the site rather than adjusting the site to hit right on.

[FergusonTO35]

I think we need to start a formal support group 'cause I'm digging everything that has been said here. I have a 1967 S&W 10-5, 1988 (last year of production) Service Six, and a nearly new Taurus 82 on layaway. I save the .357's for my Marlin 1894, my .38 +P reloads will do anything I would ever try to do with a handgun. I do intend to get an S&W 67 sometime so I can have the option of adjustable sights. I think a .44 Special Ruger Redhawk would be awesome.

[Jeff82]

I save the .357's for my Marlin 1894, my .38 +P reloads will do anything I would ever try to do with a handgun. I do intend to get an S&W 67 sometime so I can have the option of adjustable sights.

That's exactly what I do. My Marlin gets the 357s and I shoot a Model 14 and Model 36 using regular 38 specials. I'm also looking at getting a model 67, my old service weapon.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

StrawHat, that's a beauty, thanks for posting. I hired on in the early 80's, guns like yours were no where to be found. No internet for shopping.

[Mtnfolk75]

I've been carrying & shooting handguns for over 40 years, now days my most used handgun is a 4" Model 64-3 from 1979. My most carried is a Model 38 No-Dash from 1983. I like .38 Specials with Fixed Sights ...... [smilie=s:

[6.5 mike]

This must be catching, last 3 hand guns I bought/traded for are 357 old Vaqureo, 44 old Vaqureo, & a 44 spl 1872 open top.

[ejcrist]

I'm not quite with you fella's on fixed sights and short barrels yet since I use 'em mostly for a hunting and silhouette shooting, but I'm certainly with you on non-magnum cartridges. My favorites that I can never decide between are the 45 Colt and 44 Special. Next in line is the 38 Special - an outstanding cartridge. And can't forget the 32 Long.

[GLL]

I agree with StrawHat ! :)
A 4" N-frame in hot .38 Special is a nice choice.

http://www.fototime.com/DC04DA3B65C43A0/medium800.jpg

Jerry

[StrawHat]

Beautiful revolver Jerry, in my original post I neglected to mention I would prefer a revolver chambered for the 45 ACP cartridge. The N frame is a perfect platform for the 45 calibers. It works into a much lighter piece than when cut with those tiny holes.

Wish I would have gotten a couple of the HDs when they were a glut on the market. (And yes, I would have converted them to a more appropriate chambering.)

Kevin

[9.3X62AL]

I'm in good company, it seems. A majority of my "Magnum" revolver loads are more like "Specials On Steroids", given the 41 Magnum "police load" treatment of a standard-weight cast SWC at 950-1000 FPS. A Lyman #429421 atop 8.5 grains of Unique is positively docile in my Redhawk x 5.5". The 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 revolvers all ran their bullets from revolvers at almost this same velocity, given standard/black powder-intensity loadings. There is a lot to like inside this performance envelope, and it was enjoyed for many years.

[bedbugbilly]

I think there is a bigger group of "us weirdos" than you think! :-)

Personally, I much prefer the 38 spl over the 357 and my loads are not "max" . . .

While I have several 357s - some with adjustable sights, I much prefer the traditional fixed sights . . . probably because I shot SA only for years . . .

I have 38s / 357s in barrel lengths from snub to 6" - but on a SA revolver - such as a SAA - I much prefer the 4 3/4" barrel - on more "modern" revolvers (such as vintage Smiths) my preference is for a good 4" barrel

As far as 3" barrel . . . I fully agree with the OP. I normally CCW a Smith Model 36 snub - recently, I was finally able to find a nice Model 36 with a 3" barrel - been looking for one for a long time to add to the "herd" - my 3" is a great shooting little J frame and will probably replace my snub most of the time.

Maybe it's an "age" thing - I'm an old fart - but if I could only have one revolver it would be a good old Smith K frame M & P (or Model 10) in 38 spl. with a 4" barrel - a great all around cartridge and a great all around hand gun!

So no . . . you aren't alone! Maybe we should be forming a "special club"? :-)

[opos]

Come to think of it, I have really only messed with DA fixed sighted revolvers and I can't remember one that wouldn't shoot POA. Now the SAA clones, that is a different story!

Among the denizens of the safe is a Pietta Millenium SAA, in 45 Colt...shoot bunny pop loads with Trail Boss and 200 grain boolits (RNFP..12 harness) and it's about the most accurate revolver I own...and I got a safe full of single actions...some double actions and a few semi's...when I just want to have the revolver really "out shoot me" I take that Italian hog leg" to the range and just forget how hard I have to try these days..

[FergusonTO35]

While we're at it, I thought I would mention that I would love to someday own a Ruger GP-100 .38 Special, specifically the KGP-840. This is a stainless, 4" barrel, short shroud, fixed sights gun. I should've bought one new for $400.00 when I had the chance in 2002. On the rare occasion you find one now they go for more than what a new GP costs.

[Char-Gar]

I see this thread still lives, so it is time for me to make another contribution to it's longevity.

I got my first handgun in 1954 when I was 12 years old. It was a byf 42 Luger and of course it had fixed sights. Since that time I have owned somewhere well over 100 handguns, maybe closer to 200 as I really didn't count. They came in went and some are only a vague recollection. The vast majority of them had fixed sights, but many had adjustable sights of one type or another.

The thing that stands out in my mind is that a handgun that shoots to the sights is a thing of great joy, be those sights fixed or adjustable.

Adjustable sights can be adjusted within their design parameters to head dead on. The knock on them is that they are fragile and not rugged enough for the outdoors-man. According to some folks they are delicate range babies. In my salad days, I was a wild and wooley type. By foot, horseback and jeep I went all sorts of remote and often desolate places in search of fun and whatever. I always had a handgun with me and quite often it wore adjustable sights and never once did the sights give me any problem at all.

I also have and use many fixed sighted handguns, and the knock on them is that they don't shot to the sights and/or you are confined to just one load. At least 95% of the fixed sighted handguns I have owned or shot were dead nuts on to the sights. Depending on the caliber there was a reasonable flexibility of loads that would still shoot to the sights. Note, I said reasonable, because their are definite limits as to bullet weight and velocity. But a handgun that is dead nuts on with one good load is not a serious drawback and sometimes it can be a plus.

A far more serious issue with me is the how well a human being can see the sights. Early revolvers with small pinched V notch rear and round faced front sights can be a dickens to see well in some conditions of light. Their usefullness is limited by how well the sights can be seen, not whether they are fixed or adjustable.

It took Colt and Smith and Wesson some time to break the code on sight visibility, but going into WWII at least they figured out the square notch rear and finally after the war, the visible front sight.

Bottom line is I just can't stake out a position of fixed vs. adjustable sights for they all work within their limits. In my shallow way of thinking, there are good handguns and bad handguns and the difference between the two is not their rear sight.

I will throw in with the fans of the 38 Special for I think it is the most useful round for handguns ever produced. Properly loaded for the task it is assigned, it will do 95% of what we want a handgun to do. That left over 5% is where the 44 Magnum truly shines.

There you have it friends and neighbors, my thinking on the issue at hand. I walk the walk, and here are a few of my 38 Specials to prove it.

[Lefty Red]

Among the denizens of the safe is a Pietta Millenium SAA, in 45 Colt...shoot bunny pop loads with Trail Boss and 200 grain boolits (RNFP..12 harness) and it's about the most accurate revolver I own...and I got a safe full of single actions...some double actions and a few semi's...when I just want to have the revolver really "out shoot me" I take that Italian hog leg" to the range and just forget how hard I have to try these days..


That is awesome! I must add to my statement that I gave up on non Ruger SAA clones early on. The quailty just wasn't there in the late 80's that it is today! The Uberti Cattleman is an example. That is one nice hog leg that shoots good! But it seem like almost every old fixed sighted DA I pick up and shoot will keep them all in the 9/8 ring at 25 yards.

[Frosty Boolit]

I hardly give a hoot about a handgun if it ain't got a rotatin' cylinder. Cept of course its a cz75 and those are way outnumbered in my safe!:bigsmyl2:

[StrawHat]

When folks ask me to recommend a handgun as there only one, I always recommend a S&W M10 or variant. When we get to a gunshop, the salesguy will always recommend a 357 but I can usually defeat that il-logic. The 38 Special has been around since 1898 for a reason, it works. And it works with about as much recoil as a beginning shooter can handle. It is also economical to purchase and to feed.

Yes, I prefer the 45 ACP but for a one and only, it is had to beat a good 38 Special.

[FlatTop45LC]

I hardly give a hoot about a handgun if it ain't got a rotatin' cylinder. Cept of course its a cz75 and those are way outnumbered in my safe!:bigsmyl2:
The only centerfire autos I care anything about are Browning Hi Powers (I lump CZ 75 in with that) and 1911's.

[Petrol & Powder]

StrawHat - I'm with you on your recommendation for one handgun. The 38 Special is a great cartridge and the older I get the more I appreciate it. The S&W M10 is one of those simple designs that possess far more value than meets the casual eye. When recommending a handgun to people that aren't real "gun people", I lean heavily towards DA revolvers in 38 Special.

As for the .357 magnum and sales, I think there's a lot of American marketing influencing those tactics. There's a lot of "bigger is better" mentality in this country and that's fine for sales. For those of us that make decisions based on a bit more logic than emotion, those sales tactics don't work as well.

Char-Gar, thanks for that post and insight. I don't think adjustable sights are "fragile" but I've always felt that fixed sights are tougher, if that makes any sense. A gun with fixed sights that shoots to point of aim is a joy. I don't play with adjustable sights much. I will find a load that I like and adjust the sights to that load and for the rest of that's guns life I will seldom, if ever, touch the sights again. I will say that often the adjustable sights provide a better sight picture but that's a function of the design of the rear blade and front sight, not the fact that they are adjustable.
As for the 38 Special meeting 95% of handgun requirements, I might say 96% but I'll accept 95 [smilie=s:
Thanks for sharing those pictures, those are great revolvers you have.


As I stated earlier, it always amuses me when someone sees a revolver chambered in a non-magnum round and sporting fixed sights and they turn their noses up as if those features make it a less desirable gun. A lot of that is a function of that salesmanship that StrawHat talked about and some of it is lack of knowledge. The good news is that attitude improves the market for the rest of us !

[Petrol & Powder]

While we're at it, I thought I would mention that I would love to someday own a Ruger GP-100 .38 Special, specifically the KGP-840. This is a stainless, 4" barrel, short shroud, fixed sights gun. I should've bought one new for $400.00 when I had the chance in 2002. On the rare occasion you find one now they go for more than what a new GP costs.

The fixed-sighted 38 Special GP-100's are great guns and the half-lug barrels are about as close as you can get to the discontinued Service-Six. One of the great attributes of a GP chambered in 38 Special is the incredible strength factor of that configuration.
I hope you find one !

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks. I'll just have to make do with my Service Six 'til I find one.

When I was in my mid 20's (early 2000's) I became obsessed with the S&W Model 10. The fact that they are .38 Special and have fixed sights made them more lustworthy, not less. In those days I could only afford one new gun a year on average so I had to wait for one to pop up that was in good condition and affordable. This was when I passed on the aforementioned GP-100 because it wasn't a Model 10 and even less affordable.

Finally a 1967 10-5 from the estate of a former Lexington cop showed up under the glass. Lots of holster wear but mechanically perfect for $200.00 so I brought it home. To my delight it had a sweet double action pull and was dead on with any 150-160 grain boolit. The first reloads I ever made and fired were for that 10. It still stands guard as my bedroom gun loaded with my own FBI load equivalents.

When I showed the 10 to my best friend for the first time he was not very impressed because it wasn't a .357. He is unenlightened so I dont hold it against him.

Here's another odd thing about me. I don't consider the .38 Special to be a good small frame snub nose revolver round. The .38 loses alot of velocity out of the short tube and has alot of muzzle jump and one less round in such a small gun. I've had four snub .38's and never could warm up to them the way I do my medium frame guns. I like snubs but I think the .32 S&W Long with good reloads is a far better choice for such a gun.

[Char-Gar]

The Model 10 is a great handgun and in days gone by the market was flooded with police turn-ins. Mine is from 1960 and saw service with the Montreal police. My 1913 Military and Police is also a fine shooting vintage Smith and Wesson. When talking 38's we should be remiss if we fail to mention and show the Smith and Wesson K-38 and the Colt Officers Model.

[Char-Gar]

Oh shoot, lets don't forget the small frame 38's. This time it is the Colt Detective Special and the Smith and Wesson Chief's Special (Model 36)

[9.3X62AL]

I have trouble with the J-frame S&Ws due to large hand size. Put a set of Pachmayr Compacs on the thing, and life improves somewhat, but the 1-7/8" barrels on the Chief Specials do me no favors. Now, a Model 10 with 2" barrel--THAT is another story! Back in the late 70s and early 80s when my issued duty sideiron was a 4" Model 64, I carried a 2" Model 10 as a backup iron for the main cannon owing to its ability to be fed from the same speedloaders as those in place for the 4" roller. I could hit with that 2" to 25 yards with ZERO accuracy fall-off, and do almost as well at 50 yards. Why I sold it remains a mystery, and a painful one. I think its blocky, easily-visible sights played a large part in its accuracy.

[cbrick]

I see nothing weird Petrol, at the very least ya got the important part right. It ain't a real gun if it ain't a wheel gun. :mrgreen:

I shot long range revolver for 30 years, it was the vast majority of my shooting and still today my 7 inch Rugers look like snubbies to me. :veryconfu That also kept me from the fixed sights but still today over half the guns I my safe are wheel guns and by far most of my shooting is with the revolvers.

So nothing weird about a love of revolvers, once a wheel gun guy always a wheel gun guy.

Rick

[Char-Gar]

I have trouble with the J-frame S&Ws due to large hand size. Put a set of Pachmayr Compacs on the thing, and life improves somewhat, but the 1-7/8" barrels on the Chief Specials do me no favors. Now, a Model 10 with 2" barrel--THAT is another story! Back in the late 70s and early 80s when my issued duty sideiron was a 4" Model 64, I carried a 2" Model 10 as a backup iron for the main cannon owing to its ability to be fed from the same speedloaders as those in place for the 4" roller. I could hit with that 2" to 25 yards with ZERO accuracy fall-off, and do almost as well at 50 yards. Why I sold it remains a mystery, and a painful one. I think its blocky, easily-visible sights played a large part in its accuracy.

I absolutely dispise Smith and Wesson J frames with round butts for that places the trigger to close for good control. Now put a square butt on the J frame and that becomes a different critter all together. All of my J frames have square butts, even the 22.

[Petrol & Powder]

I have trouble with the J-frame S&Ws due to large hand size. Put a set of Pachmayr Compacs on the thing, and life improves somewhat, but the 1-7/8" barrels on the Chief Specials do me no favors. Now, a Model 10 with 2" barrel--THAT is another story! Back in the late 70s and early 80s when my issued duty sideiron was a 4" Model 64, I carried a 2" Model 10 as a backup iron for the main cannon owing to its ability to be fed from the same speedloaders as those in place for the 4" roller. I could hit with that 2" to 25 yards with ZERO accuracy fall-off, and do almost as well at 50 yards. Why I sold it remains a mystery, and a painful one. I think its blocky, easily-visible sights played a large part in its accuracy.

You'll get no argument from me that a 2" K-frame is easier to shoot than a 1 7/8" J frame. I like shooting the K-frame but the J-frame is decidedly easier to carry and conceal. My compromise was a round-butt Model 12 with a bobbed hammer. Concealment is the predominant factor of the snub nose J-Frame design. The J-frames are solid little guns and I rely on one daily but if you can tolerate just a little more bulk, the 2" K-frame is and outstanding fighting tool.

[StrawHat]

I have carried and used both the 2" and the 3" "J" frame, Model 36. The 3" was the easier for me to shoot. I wish they made a 4", I had a Rossi copy with a 4" barrel and while the sight picture was nice, the trigger was not at all conducive to accurate shooting.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've never understood 3" barreled J-frames. In my little mind, the J-frame, 38 Spl. revolver is made for concealment and that means a 2" (1-7/8") barrel and generally no hammer spur. If I'm going to put a 3" or longer barrel on it I might as well step up to a K-frame and get a real grip and one more round. I'm not being critical and to each his own but I just never warmed up to longer barrels on small frames.
I just fixed a model 37 for a friend and that gun had a 3" barrel. That alloy frame certainly made it light but that 3" barrel made it almost as long as my model 65. Add the tiny factory round butt grip and I couldn't see the utility to it.

Now, a 3" or 4" barrel in a smaller caliber such as .22 or .32 and maybe a bigger grip, the J-frame can be a cool kit gun.

[Piedmont]

If I'm going to put a 3" or longer barrel on it I might as well step up to a K-frame and get a real grip and one more round. I'm not being critical and to each his own but I just never warmed up to longer barrels on small frames.
I just fixed a model 37 for a friend and that gun had a 3" barrel. That alloy frame certainly made it light but that 3" barrel made it almost as long as my model 65. Add the tiny factory round butt grip and I couldn't see the utility to it.

I think it is all how you carry it. In general I agree with you, but that 3" M37 would be a good parka pocket gun and it would be more comfortable than a K frame carried inside the waistband.

I used to carry my 3" M36-6 full lug adjustable sighted .38 Spl. when rifle hunting for close shots on dumb small animals. It weighs 25 ounces and shoots like a larger gun while hitting harder than a .22. The only reason I don't carry it anymore is because I don't hunt anymore. But to your point I never pack it for self defense, preferring a 2".

[Petrol & Powder]

Piedmont, I totally agree that the mode of carry is the major factor. There's nothing wrong with long barreled J-frames and I don't wish to sound as if I'm disparaging them. They just don't fit into my scheme.
If you're looking for a light, packable 38 Special that is easier to shoot than a snubnose, a longer barrel on a J-frame may be just the ticket.



I like your signature line - Rule 303. One of the many great lines from Breaker Morant.

[Char-Gar]

Piedmont, I totally agree that the mode of carry is the major factor. There's nothing wrong with long barreled J-frames and I don't wish to sound as if I'm disparaging them. They just don't fit into my scheme.
If you're looking for a light, packable 38 Special that is easier to shoot than a snubnose, a longer barrel on a J-frame may be just the ticket.



I like your signature line - Rule 303. One of the many great lines from Breaker Morant.


The nicest little carry pistol I ever owned was a 4" Colt Cobra. Sorry to say it went by-by in The Great D-Vorce of 94.

[Petrol & Powder]

The nicest little carry pistol I ever owned was a 4" Colt Cobra. Sorry to say it went by-by in The Great D-Vorce of 94.

I lost a very early post war Browning Hi-power, complete the original box marked with the name of the West German police inspector that it had been issued to in a similar great D-Vorce of 09.

[FlatTop45LC]

I lost a very early post war Browning Hi-power, complete the original box marked with the name of the West German police inspector that it had been issued to in a similar great D-Vorce of 09.
The Hi Power is by far my favorite auto pistol!

[Mtnfolk75]

9.3X62AL, I recently acquired a 2" Model 10-5 SB from 1964. I haven't put a lot of time behind the trigger on it, but I agree with your " it is easier to shoot accurately than a 2" J-Frame " opinion. In my retirement years I have migrated to mostly pocket carry, in that vein the Model 38 No-Dash is KING. I have pocket carried the 2" 10-5 a few time in Bibs, also carry a 2" Colt Agent in my pocket occasionally. But, the Model 38 is much lighter & smaller overall, the fact that I have shot it a bunch and am quite accurate with it at 15 yards is comforting ..... [smilie=s:

[Petrol & Powder]

In my quest for the best snubnose for daily carry I went through a bunch of guns. Like everything else in life, it comes down to compromise.

A steel 2" K-frame is a great tool but even with a round butt, rather large for pocket carry and a bit too heavy. They are much easier to shoot than a snubnose J-frame and have 6 round cylinders but for a gun that is "carried a lot and shot a little" that weight and bulk is a steep daily price to pay.

An alloy, round butt, K-frame (model 12) is a joy to carry, not bad to shoot and much lighter than a steel model 10 or model 64. However, it is the same size as its all steel counterparts. They also are a bit tough to come by. The dash 4 models have the same width grip frames as any other K-frame but the early models have thinner grip frames so be prepared to use the scarce factory grips or pay for custom made grips panels. (yes, I know you can sand down standard grip panels but you still need a Tyler grip adaptor if you go that route). The model 12 with a bobbed hammer is my second choice overall.

The Ruger SP101 is an outstanding gun but very heavy & bulky for its class. It is undoubtedly the strongest of the class. The DAO models are very close companions to the bobbed hammer K-frames and probably my third choice overall.

The D-framed Colt snubnose revolvers are appealing. They are slightly smaller than the K-framed S&W snubnose revolvers and slightly bigger than the S&W J-frames. The 6 round cylinders are just a bonus. Unfortunately, prices for decent Colt revolvers are now in the stratosphere. I played with a few Detective Special's, Cobra's and Agent's. I really liked the Agent with its light weight frame and short grip. The Agent I had was pristine and I couldn't bring myself to bob the hammer. I also didn't care for the exposed ejector rod. It had to go. The Detective Special's and the Cobra's were good guns but I never really mastered the Colt DA trigger pull. If I was seriously going to carry one it would have to get a bobbed hammer, DA trigger job and then go off to Robar for a NP3 finish. I still have one of my Detective Specials but the rest of the snubnose Colt's fell by the wayside.

The J-frames are great pocket carry guns but the small grips are a limitation. With some type of "boot grip" or Tyler grip adaptor they are OK but not as good as the K-frame with a boot grip. In my search for a self-defense snubnose revolver I didn't want a hammer spur or need single action capability; so the DAO models were my only choices. I tried the early model (38 Special only) stainless steel framed 640 and it was an excellent gun but the alloyed framed 442 was even better. After carrying and shooting a pile of short barreled 38's; I continued to return to the S&W 442 for it's small size, light weight and snag-proof DAO action. Not perfect but the compromise I settled on. If I could find a decent model 40 or 42 I might be tempted to continue my evaluation a bit more. [smilie=s: YMMV

[Mtnfolk75]

Petrol & Powder,
I hear you loud and clear on the bobbed hammers, both the 10-5 and the Agent have bobbed hammers and smoothed actions. The Agent is one of the Parkerized ones from about 1982. The 10-5 wears Uncle Mikes SB Boots, the Agent & Model 38 wear Hogue Bantam Boots. The 10-5 actually carries pretty well in the pocket of Bibs, the Agent does well in large pockets, but the Model 38 is King for Wranglers .... :bigsmyl2:

FWIW, I have had the Model 38 since April 2004. I've sent hundreds of mild 148 & 158 Grain Boolits down the tube. The trigger face was smoothed and polished when the action job was done in 2007. Had a 14 Carat Gold Bead set into the front sight and had it regulated for Standard 158 Grain Service Loads at the same time. Have had the Agent since 2009 & had the hammer bobbed & action worked last year, have put about 300 boolits own it's tube. It is actually on SWMBO's CCW Permit & she carries it occasionally, when her Blocks are too big .... :shock: The 10-5 came into my possession in February of this year, the hammer was bobbed and action worked soon after. I have about 250 Boolits down the tube and like it a lot.

[Petrol & Powder]

Mtnfolk75 - Sounds like you've got that snubnose thing worked out pretty well !

[9.3X62AL]

The late-series Detective Specials are just about the most perfect snubguns ever crafted. +P capable, a butt section you can find aftermarket grips for, and as stated above at a perfect size mid-point between the J-frame and K-frame. The Colt D-frame did many things quite well.

[Petrol & Powder]

Just about the time Colt got the Detective Special right...they stopped making them.

The third series had the shrouded ejector rod and a better front sight. Those models actually had good balance. The very late production DS-II finally took advantage of stainless steel construction and some DAO models were made, unfortunately that was just about the last days of Colt revolvers.

I've always preferred the lockwork of the Rugers and S&W's but as far as overall size, Colt got it right with the Detective Special/Agent/Cobra models.