The Government "The All Seeing All Knowing"

[dave 45-90]

Has determined the 9mm will be allowed to come on back to momma..Kinda old news, but interesting


:popcorn:http://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/

[Cowpoke]

If they believe what's said in that article, sounds like they should just issue out .22s

[hp246]

Read the key points in this article. Accuracy is repeated a couple of times. Faster follow shots, less recoil, more rounds. As a retired law enforcement firearms trainer, I am only reading between the lines here. I think what they are saying is that it is easier to teach smaller (read between the lines here) shooters to shoot more accurately with a smaller caliber weapon, with the 9mm being in the acceptable range for penetration and expansion.

[Zouave 58]

Obviously shot placement is a critical factor and that indicates the necessity of proper practice to develop muscle memory so that accuracy will not entirely degrade in very high stress encounters. I don't shoot enough and I suspect most of us don't.

[FergusonTO35]

Hopefully, this means the next step is six shot .38 Special revolvers!

[labradigger1]

I think the" stopping power of a handgun myth" is funny,
Leos should maybe try a 44

[Zouave 58]

I keep getting the feeling that law enforcement has a competency problem with their weapons. I know several police officers who never fire their duty weapons unless they have to qualify; so these guys fire twice a year-that's all. Sure there are shooters who are cops but I suspect that most of them look at the handgun as just another tool on their belt like their Taser of their pepper spray.Is it any wonder then that the FBI is pushing 9mm? If you don't shoot enough to enable reasonable accuracy and bullet placement under high stress conditions then it really doesn't matter what calibre you carry. Probably the only really competent handgun fighters are the military special ops folks because they practice an awful lot. I know I don't shoot enough- how about you?

[OuchHot!]

I recall Jeff Cooper writing in exasperation about a LEO killed while reloading his revolver (1970's) and the response from his management was they needed to implement speed loaders. The LEO in question fired all 6 at less than 20' with no hits. The 70-80% miss statistic has been pretty much the same for over 50yrs! I am a "larger is better as long as I can hit rapidly" sort of guy. In today's world where cops are possibly less "gunny" and possibly smaller in stature, I'm for getting hits. If that means a 9mm OK. I would rather they shoot a bad guy with a bazooka but only if they HIT HIM.

[tazman]

I am constantly reading stories where a police officer or several fires any where from 7-16 rounds each and only get 3-6 hits combined total. Most times apologists say it is because it is a stressful situation.
This worries me.
If the situation is so stressful that the officer can only hit a man sized target with such poor regularity, does he have any idea where the misses are going? What about innocent bystanders or people living in their homes behind him? Where are those bullets going to end up?
This sounds to me like very poorly trained police officers.
Am I a better, qualified shot? I don't know. I do however, shoot my pistols once a week for about 300 rounds at small targets(3"). If I an getting less than 80% hits at normal combat distance(30 feet which is the length of my house) I work a bit longer on the details of my form. I won't be happy until I get all of them in there.

[FergusonTO35]

I used to work for an agency and yes, the majority of cops are not gun enthusiasts. Many of them seriously had no clue how to operate any gun other than a Glock pistol or M16 type carbine. One of them took a snub nose revolver off a perp and didn't unload it because he couldn't figure out how to drop the magazine. The marksmanship standard they were expected to meet was very minimal, something like 12 out of 20 aimed, slow fire shots anywhere on the head or chest area of a life size silhouette target at 25 yards. The silhouettes they used were huge, too.

Right before I left they were in the process of purchasing a video game type firearms training system. As much as I enjoyed playing Duck Hunt on my Nintendo growing up it did nothing for my shooting skills. Fortunately, the main purpose a cop's gun serves is to convince perps to surrender without being fired. You don't need actual shooting abilities to do that.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

A retired LEO told me at a former agency of his two officers fired all their 18 rounds, 36 rounds in total at a shooting offender in a running firefight. The suspect was not hit. The Admin said in response; our officers need to carry more boolits.

I'm still working as a peace officer and IMO our guys are generally pretty good shots.

[OuchHot!]

A couple of family are retired LEO and have commented on the changing times. The academy training is more lengthy and intense as time goes by but there is just a tremendous body of info being delivered beyond just pursuit driving, armed and unarmed tactics and the like. Somewhere there has to be a change as the basic statistic of 1 hit in four or five has not been shaken over the years. all those rounds are going somewhere and in an urban environment, I want them in the bad guy. Not being a leo, I have no idea how to address this. My cousins have said that more tactic and shooting training but I know what the accountants say about that.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

This sounds to me like very poorly trained police officers.
Am I a better, qualified shot? I don't know. I do however, shoot my pistols once a week for about 300 rounds at small targets(3"). If I an getting less than 80% hits at normal combat distance(30 feet which is the length of my house) I work a bit longer on the details of my form. I won't be happy until I get all of them in there.

Put on some goggles and have a neighbor kid shoot at you with an airsoft gun while you try to hit that target at normal combat distances. Then imagine how many times you'd hit it if the kid had a real gun and was shooting at you.

But I do agree that more training may be needed. But that costs money...

[Zouave 58]

I would say that the real question then is how to design effective training scenarios and pay for them so that Leos gain enough proficiency to reliable defend themselves and us. Speaking as a retired paramedic I've got to say that police, fire and EMS types need to go home after their shift is over and the rest of us do not need to become collateral damage.

[tazman]

Put on some goggles and have a neighbor kid shoot at you with an airsoft gun while you try to hit that target at normal combat distances. Then imagine how many times you'd hit it if the kid had a real gun and was shooting at you.

But I do agree that more training may be needed. But that costs money...

That was my point when I said I didn't know if I was a better/ qualified shot.

[ole 5 hole group]

Here's the deal, if you practice daily or several times a week, you will probably be very efficient in a firefight if you also possess the right mind-set. Some of your larger police departments have SWAT members who burn ammo several times a week, all year long - not many departments do this or can afford to do this. Those boys are shooters and most have the mind-set to get the job done.

As for the average officer - his chances of stumbling into a running gunfight in his 20 to 30 year career is like 3%, so, if he's proficient at 50 feet at qualification time, say 100X100 and doesn't possess the "warrior" mind-set when the time comes, well - your guess is as good as mine as to where his bullets go. In a firefight, your mind is just as important as your firearm. You can teach it, but not everyone will perform up to par when the time comes and one never really knows until their tested. In Europe, the police round was the 380, their military round the 9mm - both those calibers killed a lot of people over the years, so I guess the 9mm here will do the same if the bullet is placed correctly, whether by luck or skill.


For the most part, cops are just average citizens and most aren't gun nuts.

[tazman]

If an officer takes pride and responsibility in his job, he will become as proficient as possible with the tools of his trade. Since one of those tools is his firearm, he owes it to himself and to the people he is supposed to protect to be accurate with his pistol as he can be for his own safety as well as others.
If the officer looks at it as just a job and will only practice enough to get by, he doesn't belong on the police force because he is a danger to himself and others every time he puts on the uniform.

[rintinglen]

When the world turns to dung, your adrenalin goes through the roof. The gun in your hand feels life a toy balloon and your total attention is focused on the suspect. I can easily understand a miss under those circumstances.

[Garyshome]

This I thought was the most important point of this statement...
"the goal of law enforcement is to stop a threat during a deadly force encounter as quickly as possible. Whether or not death occurs is of no consequence as long as the threat of death or serious injury to law enforcement personnel and innocent third parties is eliminated."