Rebuilding an old High Standard .22 auto

[fatelk]

A while back I posted about an old High Standard HD Military a friend of mine has that had been through a fire long ago, and he now wants to see if we can rebuild it.

I finally got to take a look at it, here are photos. It got hot: the grips are gone and the springs are pretty weak. There is a crusty coating on the metal in places. At first I thought it was paint or something, but now suspect it's a result of the heat, maybe the original blued surface? If one of you guys who knows metallurgy can tell me, I'd appreciate it. Where I can scrape it off, the surface looks OK underneath. The bore looks great, nice and shiny. He soaked the whole gun in a mixture of atf and acetone for a week.

The only screw he couldn't get loose was the trigger stop screw. I think he dinged it up pretty good trying. Any ideas? I was thinking a little more soaking, then try some heat, and if that didn't work, carefully drill it out and replace it.

Also, we'll need grips and a magazine as well as springs. Springs I can get from Numrich. I see Triple K makes both, but they don't seem to have the best reputation online. Anyone have any ideas or comments on this?

[leftiye]

That "crusty" stuff could be scale? The surface of steel oxidizes when hot enough. If so that thing got HOT! How is the bore? I doubt that for .22 rimfire there would be any strength issues with the metal.

[krit29-2]

seen worse,, and yes it's scale from getting hot..
the screw, right size screwdriver, try tapping the handle while turning ( vibration might help break it loose )
as for the rest of the gun, it's salvageable , replace the springs, new stocks, mag.. lot of time with a file, sandpaper, buffing, then off to a blueing tank
should look like new.. lot of work.. but, better than just chucking it in the trash
oh, and use SV ammo at first, check for slide peening.. and you should be good to go..
and in progress photos would be awesome..:popcorn:

[Petrol & Powder]

Yea, it got a bit warm but I think you can make it work. You may want to consider bead blasting instead of polishing considering the shape it's in. Polishing that back to smooth may prove to be difficult. Some type of spray on finish, like Brownells Gunkote may be less investment in time and result in a better outcome.
Disassemble it, clean it, inspect the bore, degrease, bead blast, re-finish, new springs/grips, oil, reassemble, SHOOT !

[fatelk]

Thanks guys, for the encouragement. I was worried when I saw all the scale. Believe it or not the bore looks excellent: clean, sharp rifling with no sign of pitting. I don't see any sign of scale on any inside surfaces.

He's buying the parts and I'm doing the work. I was thinking about finding a local gunsmith to blue it, pay for it and surprise him, but if it's not likely to come out nice maybe I shouldn't.

[Petrol & Powder]

Your call but that's going to be a lot of polishing. Might turn out great, might just be a lot of work. For a gun like that I would want to keep the cost down. Maybe you could clean it up, put it all back together and make sure it works before committing to a good refinish?

[fatelk]

Definitely, that sounds like the best way to go.

[walnut1704]

I had an HD worked on by the Houston factory and they sell quality slant-grip mags, though I believe the mag catch has to be slightly modified. They asked my permission to modify it.

[leftiye]

I was lucky, all I had to do was find a safety lever. And put a 10 inch barrel and a scope on it. Minute of small bird at 80 yards.

[pietro]

.

FWIW, I would never knowingly shoot any gun that's been exposed to that much heat (even a .22LR develops 20,000 PSI) - I'd attend a police dept gun turn-in event, and get $50, $75, grocery coupon, whatever, for it.


.

[krit29-2]

FWIW, I would never knowingly shoot any gun that's been exposed to that much heat (even a .22LR develops 20,000 PSI) - I'd attend a police dept gun turn-in event, and get $50, $75, grocery coupon, whatever, for it.
.

actually it's 24,000 psi....
however, both of these .22 rifles and two of the 20 gauge shotguns went through a house fire.. were rebuilt and are still being used.. I don't think he's going to have a problem.
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i279/kritter2000/HPIM0481.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/kritter2000/media/HPIM0481.jpg.html)
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i279/kritter2000/P1010002b.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/kritter2000/media/P1010002b.jpg.html)
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i279/kritter2000/winnies001.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/kritter2000/media/winnies001.jpg.html)
the before carnage...
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i279/kritter2000/HPIM0470.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/kritter2000/media/HPIM0470.jpg.html)

[Petrol & Powder]

I would have no problem shooting that .22 after a fire. I doubt the steel got softer in that fire but I'm absolutely certain it didn't get weaker. In other words, IF the heat damaged the gun the result would be excessive wear not danger of catastrophic failure.

[r6487]

watch gunbroker for needed parts. i used wolff springs on mine. the original two tone mags are the best. the new triple k mags with green followers usually take some tweaking of the lips.

[justashooter]

scale like that normally occurs above 900*F. wood combusts at 450-500*F.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

So if that is really scale, this pistol got a lot hotter than the rifles and shotguns illustrated above. But is it? The OP describes the springs as being weak, and I think that after 900 Fahrenheit they would be florists' wire. Lots of things in a house fire emit fumes that could roughen the surface of steel. This pistol may well have been kept in a drawer all these years without replacing the oil that burned away, so the pitting may have deepened.

What I don't remember if I posted in the other thread, although I meant to, is that whatever stops the frame in its rearward travel, if it isn't simply total or near-total compression of the mainspring, may need to be rehardened or replaced. It is a very long time since I handled one of these (It made even me a pretty fair pistol shot for the time being), and I never saw one dismantled, so I don't know the details.

The barrel, on the other hand, would never have been hardened, since rifling requires extremely free cutting, and it is far thicker than required to withstand pressure. Nor is the breechblock going to collapse. If the latter is restrained by a good mainspring, I can't see safety being an issue. Annealed slide and frame rails might wear to a sloppy fit in time. But it would be progressive, over a long time, and I doubt if this pistol is going to fire an extreme number of rounds.

This has been about as good a .22 pistol as anyone has made. I don't believe it would, in financial terms, repay professional restoration. But that isn't what is being proposed. It seems a great shame to surrender it into the hands of the enemy for a few dollars. I would much prefer not to paint it, too. Unlike a lot of polishing jobs, a lot of what can be done to prepare this pistol for bluing is not unduly demanding. Most of the scaled surfaces are flat, and can be polished with successive grades of abrasive paper, fixed to plywood or plate glass with double sided taps. It is television-watching work.

[Boolit_Head]

Try an impact driver on the screw, the type you strike with a hammer. Might break it loose.

[lancem]

I agree with the bead blast, then I would parkerize it, assemble it and shoot away!

[koger]

I redid the exact same HS pistol about 4 years ago. A buddies son had his, when house partiall burnt. The scale can be caused by other debris, or by steam if firefighters were spraying the house. I put in new springs and cleaned everything up, new magazine, after about 1 clip, it worked great. Then tore down, bead blasted and cleaned with acetone, and hot blued it. Came out with a great, deep black, matte finish, that hid the pits, and kept costs down dramitcally!

[fatelk]

I got that screw out last night. It was tough, and really damaged the screw head. It looks like replacement screws are not easy to find so I think I can reshape it and make it work again, though it will thread in well below flush. Should work fine. The last thing I'm stuck on it the little screw holding in the firing pin. It just plain won't come out. A replacement for that one is cheap so I'll probably end up wrecking it to get it out.

I was able to get the pins and small pieces out too. Some of the pins were REALLY tough. I wonder just how hot it got. The springs, even the tiny ones, had a little spring left to them. Definitely weak, but not soft wire. I touched the back sides of both the sear and stop lug with a file, and couldn't easily cut into either, so they are not completely soft. I don't know how hard they were to begin with, but they still seem pretty hard.

I got all the scale off the barrel but as hard as some of it came off, the frame will be quite a chore. I think right now, especially since it's not my gun, I'll order parts to get it back together and see how it works. I'll probably clean it up as best I can and use some bake-on paint on it. I've never been a big fan of paint on guns, but used some high-temp paint a while back and it turned out pretty nice. I think we'll probably go that route for now, and let him decide on how much further to go with it later. I'll just get it going for now. The varying degrees of scale on the different surfaces makes me think that making it look really nice without bead blasting would be quite an arduous task. It comes off easily in some places, then seems to just transition into hard metal in others.

I've got all but one spring in my online cart at Numrich, and found a Triple K magazine a little cheaper on ebay (free shipping). There's a gun show nearby tomorrow. I don't get a chance to go to shows much at all anymore so I think I'll go look around. I know there's little chance of finding any HD-military grips or mags there, but I'll hold off ordering anything until afterwards anyhow, just in case.

[fatelk]

Wow, that last firing pin screw was a bugger to get out. Ultimately I had to get very creative with a very small Dremel bit. I did get it out without damaging the slide, but the screw is shot. Here's a photo all taken apart.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

124334

That is very encouraging about the sear - not just for that part, but for what it encourages us to believe about the rest of the gun. As for the screw, you obviously have enough of it to determine whether it is a standard size, and perhaps replaceable without the name High Standard coming into it. Here is a table of Unified thread dimensions:

http://machiningproducts.com/html/UNC-UNF-UNEF-Thread-Dimensions.html

It might be one of these, or it might be a special and therefore unobtainable. There are also industry-standard threads, such as the 6-48 almost universally used for fitting scope bases, which are easily obtained. Brownells have an extremely wide range of screws (about all of them threaded right up to the head), unthreaded blank screws and threading dies. While a lathe is a counsel of perfection, screw heads can be turned with files while the screw is spun with an electric drill, held in a bench mount.

www.brownells.com (http://www.brownells.com)

I don't know what kind of head that screw has. But a trigger stop screw won't be heavily stressed. Or it might be deeper than usual. In the latter case I would silver solder on a short steel stub to be slotted with a fine saw. I've got a hacksaw blade on which I eliminate the ripples (present to stop it binding when cutting deep) by holding it on a belt sander. My picture is a piece of steel I silver soldered onto the automatic safety actuating rod of my Gibbs shotgun, which had worn enough in 120 years to sometimes put the safety on, and sometimes not. (later, of course, I ground the solder and added piece flush with the cylindrical part.) I used high speed steel, to stay hard with soldering heat, but you should use something softer unless you can do very accurate slotting with the little ceramic cutting wheels sold with the Dremel tool.

There is another choice if you don't mind slightly modifying the gun. The hole can be rethreaded with a slightly larger threading tap, for a screw you can get. If the hole is quite long, even a tap of the same diameter but slightly different pitch should leave enough strength for this application.

[fatelk]

Thanks for the help, but I think I wasn't clear about which screw was destroyed. The trigger stop screw I was able to get out with enough threads left so I can reshape the head and reuse it just find. It's a funky looking special piece, with a threaded head and a long pin, would be pretty hard to make.

The destroyed screw is the firing pin retaining screw. It's available from Numrich for $2.35. :)

[fatelk]

I guess I was a little naive, and a little bummed. My friend decided he wants it blued, and I have two problems:

1. How exactly to deal with the scale, to make it look good. I'm thinking about the only way to make it turn out OK is to bead blast.

2. Possibly the bigger problem; finding someone to blue it. I've never had much luck with cold blue, and certainly don't have the set-up for hot blue. I stopped today and talked to a local gunsmith. I would have been fine if he had simply said that for liability reasons he won't touch a gun that's been in a fire, but I could have done without the rather condescending lecture about pulling the trigger on a hand grenade, and how I need to chop that gun up and throw it in the garbage. He said there wasn't a gunsmith in the country that would touch it if it's been in a fire, for bluing or anything else.

What do you all think? I know there are several darn good professional gunsmiths here on this forum. Any advice one way or the other? I appreciate everyone's encouraging help so far, otherwise I'd definitely start to think I was on a fool's errand about now.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well I'm not a professional gunsmith, and opinion on this board has varied, but I think he is exaggerating, possibly because he thinks he would have to polish it, and end up charging more than you would be happy with. I think accelerated wear is a possibility, and would have to be watched for in use. You could always replace nothing but those springs essential to firing, and try ten or twenty shots with the old piece of string trick, or with nothing but a gloved hand extending round the corner of a stout piece of furniture, to see if anything is getting peened out of shape. But a hand grenade? Never, and as for no gunsmith in the country touching it, non-verbal noises to him. Did you, by any chance, just say "a pistol"? I think he would be right about a high powered automatic or revolver.

If I understand the anatomy of the High Standard correctly, I think the slide is stopped by the small piece next to the rear end of the firing pin in your picture? I doubt if there is any danger of distortion if you were to reharden that and perhaps the slide and the disconnector bar. Or most of these are replaceable at a worthwhile cost from Numrich. I think you have the best of the High Standards for this situation, since the barrel isn't attached by a vertical pin entering a hole in the frame. It could be helpful if someone with one of these pistols in the unburnt state could do a bit of judicious scratching with a needle point, and tell us which impact surfaces appear to be hard.

You might find naval jelly (the pink rust remover, which doesn't apply any sort of inhibitor or protective coating) will remove the scale, and that won't do the gun any harm. I wouldn't use any liquid acid, in case you etch a sort of reverse pitting. Cold blues are a pretty miserable substitute for the real thing. A slow rust blue is a possibility, but I have had good results with Birchwood Casey Plum Brown, which you apply to metal heated enough to make it hiss. After many applications you get a deep brown satin finish which goes a warm black, very much in keeping on an old gun, when boiled in clean water. But use different water to wash off the acid residue first. Or you could investigate Brownells electroless nickel plating.

I did mean the trigger stop screw, in case you wanted a good head flush with the frame like the original. But it sounds like you are doing fine so far.

[fatelk]

Thanks again, Scotland. Another member also recommended naval jelly by PM. I'm using some on it right now. It's not coming off easy, but it is coming off. I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I think it will turn out nice.

Also thanks again for the encouragement that I'm not building a bomb that will go off in my hand. :) I wasn't too terribly concerned about that part, but it has been a while since I've been lectured like I was a little boy about to do something really stupid.:veryconfu I did tell him exactly what I was working on, and I can understand him being leery of fire-damaged guns, but I guess I am a little sensitive about being talked down to. Oh, well- to each their own.

Now I just need to see if I can locate someone relatively local who will be willing to give the prepped frame and slide a dip in some hot blue, otherwise it'll be some experimenting with good cold blue or rust blue.

[dubber123]

Your local "gun mechanic" is likely just repeating the same **** that was fed to him, also by someone who didn't know what they were talking about. That gun will be fine. I wish you were closer, I'd run it through the blue tanks for you, and I'd even do the initial test fire of your shiny new "grenade". I wouldn't even wear gloves.. :)

[Petrol & Powder]

I bet that guy sells more guns than he fixes.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Or gets most of his money from a limited range of popular jobs he is good at.

[cwheel]

Don't expect much from the Triple K mags. I've put hours of tweaking into their green follower mags for my 1947 HD. Of the 5 Triple K mags I bought, not one works as it should. Original mags are the best but exceptionally hard to come by and expensive. Make sure and rebuild the original mag with a new spring if you can. Having it apart gives you a chance to adjust the main spring for modern high speed ammo also. The Wolf replacement comes a little long and can be adjusted so the new high speed ammo won't batter the frame. Originally they were set up for standard velocity ammo.
Chris

[fatelk]

A couple more photos; one after getting it cleaned up, and the next after some Oxpho Blue. It seemed to cover pretty good, hopefully wears well too.

I have wood grips, slide lock, and most springs on order from Numrich. A couple springs they don't have so I measured and found the right springs from Grainger. I'm looking forward to getting it put together and trying it out. Maybe I should shop around for some good prosthetics and an eye patch first, before I pull the trigger on this "grenade". I guess I shouldn't make that joke since I know a guy who lost a hand and eye to a real grenade.

I figure a tiny pinch of powder wrapped by that thick bull barrel, it wouldn't be much of a grenade even if it was made of soft aluminum or copper. The gunsmith in his lecture told me how a .22lr develops however many thousand psi pressure just like bigger cartridges, the implication being that a catastrophic failure of a .22 could be as dangerous as that of a 45-70 or something. Of course the SI part of PSI is really as important as the P part. The .22 has a lot less "square inches" than the 45-70.


Don't expect much from the Triple K mags.
I am worried about that. I read about their reputation online. I picked one up at a gun show last weekend for $30. Then I got looking around and read one review that said the newer ones are much better than the older ones, and you can tell the difference by the shape of the welds at the base. Of course the one I just bought is an older one. :( Oh well, I'll give it a try before judging it.

I wish he still had the original mag body. The fire this went through was half a century ago and the original mag is long gone, who knows where.

[Petrol & Powder]

Looks good. It cleaned up rather well.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You have achieved a lot, and the pistol is now looking extremely good. I have never been a fan of Oxpho-blue. Like all the other bluish cold blues, it works by depositing a thin layer of copper, and blackening it. It will wear with handling, and it will impair action of conventional oxidation blue if you ever decide to do that. Chemical removal would be advisable. But you were right to do it, for a usable and good looking pistol is the first priority. If you later feel it is worth a bit more time, well and good.

A 16 inch naval gun is remarkably like a .30-06 rifle. It has about the same length and rifling twist measured in calibres, velocity, peak and terminal pressures, etc. But a breech explosion wipes out everybody in the turret, very possibly bursts or unseats it, and if you did everything right, doesn't penetrate down the turret trunk to the magazine. You are perfectly right in thinking that the rimfire round, though it may work at higher pressures than many a centrefire pistol, has far less destructive potential.

I think you might be wise to limit it to standard velocity .22LR rounds, unless you get information for sure that it was designed to cope with .22LR High Velocity. I don't know about the serial numbers of High Standard autos. With the Colt Woodsman the grip backstrap, which had an upward projection to serve as the slide stop, sometimes cracked and had to be replaced with a more recently made one if HV rounds were to be used. But I never heard that this hurt anyone, and the High Standards date from almost two decades later than the Woodsman.

[Rich/WIS]

Original mags show up on Ebay frequently, but are pricey. Often parts show up as well. Keep checking the listings and you may be able to get a few "spares". Definitely stick with SV ammo, if you crack the frame with HV you are out of business. The frame cracking is more commonly associated with the military models but can be an issue in older guns as well. There is also a tool for adjusting magazine lips sold on Ebay that works as advertised, if you are going to use the Triple K mags it might be a good investment.

[dubber123]

Could someone post a pic of an original mag? I think my brother may have one in his parts bin.

[fatelk]

Parts finally came. I ran into some small issues but got it figured out. It was a bear to get together again.

I carefully cycled some rounds through by hand in the house and they were all smooth as silk. I know that doesn't mean much but it's a good sign. I hope to get to the range this weekend and try it out with some SV ammo. From past experience nothing ever works right the first time; there's always something that requires it to be completely torn down and redone.

One thing I noticed right away is that the bolt holds open with one round left in the magazine. After some research it seems that this is because the earlier guns used a magazine with a smaller diameter button. The larger button contacts the bolt hold open too soon. I think I can just grind it down to make it work.

[fatelk]

Remind me to never, ever again go to the range on New Years Day. I work a flexible schedule so I usually go during the week when nobody's there. Today it was packed.

It shot fine, when it shot. I only shot about half a box of Winchester T22s.

Two problems:
First I think I trimmed the mainspring too short. I was having trouble getting it in so eventually I trimmed it to the same number of coils as the old one. I ended up with about a 30% or 40% misfire rate. I just recocked the hammer and they all went off on the second hit. Good thing another mainspring is only about $5 from Numrich.

Second, the magazine has a catch in it of some kind. I need to take the dang thing apart and figure out what the issue is. It's not the lips because it fed perfectly when it actually pushed the rounds to the top where the slide could pick them up.

Accuracy seemed good. I was only about 50' offhand and I'm not the world's best shot, but it printed a nice little group.

All in all pretty good. A couple things to tweak but it shows promise. Amazingly enough it didn't grenade in my hand. :)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well that was better than making a paperweight of it, wasn't it? I agree, it is the sort of pistol that finds a certain amount of ability in all of us. I shot as close to well with it as I ever did with the single shot Webley.

The only snag now is that you will want one of your own when you've given it back.

[fatelk]

I tinkered with the magazine and shot another box. The stickiness problem seemed to be with burrs of some kind inside the mag body. I cleaned it up and now it works fine. Out of around 70 rounds there was one jam. I ordered another mainspring so hopefully function should be about perfect when I get that fit.

A question about heat treating: I am a little concerned about undue wear on the small parts like the bolt stop ears, sear and trigger engaging surfaces. I don't see any real indication of a problem yet, but am wondering if I should try to heat treat them.

[fatelk]

I've got this old thing pretty well done, except for one problem. It still tends to misfire, maybe 10 or 20%. I ordered another mainspring and fit it longer, about as long as possible to physically fit. The issue I see is that the spring I get from Numrich is slightly smaller wire than the original; .040" compared to .045". I checked with Wolff Gunsprings, and the only spring they make for the old model HD Military is a recoil spring. According to the serial number info I found online, this one was made in '48.

I can order still another spring from Numrich and make it longer. I think I can get almost one more coil, maybe. I guess that's about all I can do. Any ideas?

[alrighty]

I've got this old thing pretty well done, except for one problem. It still tends to misfire, maybe 10 or 20%. I ordered another mainspring and fit it longer, about as long as possible to physically fit. The issue I see is that the spring I get from Numrich is slightly smaller wire than the original; .040" compared to .045". I checked with Wolff Gunsprings, and the only spring they make for the old model HD Military is a recoil spring. According to the serial number info I found online, this one was made in '48.

I can order still another spring from Numrich and make it longer. I think I can get almost one more coil, maybe. I guess that's about all I can do. Any ideas?
The mainspring could be the problem.I would also check your firing pin and make sure it travels freely.I have often found that a slight burr or trash will slow the firing pin enough to cause light strikes.I am sure you will get it figured out and good job on saving the High Standard.

[dubber123]

Check that there is no peening either. I have had that "fatten up" a pin enough to prevent full travel.

[fatelk]

The firing pin seems to travel freely, no problem. I have another $5 spring coming from Numrich, but then I got looking at a couple other places- Brownells and High Standard. Just from the photo on Brownells (appearance and number of coils), their spring looks heavier. I hate to go too far down that road if it's not the problem, but I don't know what else it could be. I'll try one more time with the Numrich spring since I have it coming.

At first glance, a difference in wire diameter of .040" and .045" sounds minor, but when you calculate the sectional area (and presumably therefore spring strength), that's over 20%. It seems like that has to make a difference.

Also- I found some "original" magazines, made by the current incarnation of High Standard. Anyone know anything about these? http://shop.highstandard.com/magazine-assembly-22lr-p-1645.html

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Some people cut coils off springs in the belief that it makes them weaker, and of course other things being equal, it makes them stronger. Cut a spring down to a single coil, and you could scarcely compress it between your fingers. The way other things aren't equal, and the reason a shortened spring can deliver a gentler blow, is that there is less preload on it when it is installed in the available space.

Try preloading it with a metal or plastic collar at one end, and see if that works. Something improvised and unlikely to last is good enough to find out if a more laboriously prepared one is likely to solve your problem.

There are only three more things I can think of that are likely to cause misfires apart from the above.

There could be scale in the firing pin channel.

You could be using cartridges of thicker or harder metal than the pistol was designed for.

The rear of the barrel could be indented. This wouldn't be because of the fire, as the barrel wouldn't be hardened steel. Causes (and bear in mind that I don't know the exact details of the High Standard) might be substitution of the wrong part or excessive dry-firing, both before the fire.

[Geezer in NH]

Sell all the parts and buy another will work out much cheaper in the long run IMHO.

When I was a gunsmith that project would be min 3-400 bucks to start

[Ballistics in Scotland]

So would selling the wife and seeking domestic and undomestic solace in less formally documented ways. But the OP isn't a gunsmith, and wanted the pistol restored.

[fatelk]

So would selling the wife and seeking domestic and undomestic solace in less formally documented ways.
:):) Actually I think that would get pretty expensive. I'd have to hire a maid, a cook, childcare; amongst other things. Yea, I think I've got a bargain. :)


Sell all the parts and buy another will work out much cheaper in the long run IMHO.

When I was a gunsmith that project would be min 3-400 bucks to start

I see what you're saying, but I would never have considered taking it to a smith. The many hours I have into this project are beyond it's value already, if it was a "by the hour" sort of thing, which it's not.

It's a favor for a friend, the old gun has some sentimental family value, and it's pretty much done now anyhow. It certainly wouldn't make much sense at this point to scrap it and buy a new one, I don't think.

[W.R.Buchanan]

A long time ago I built a Thompson Center Hawken Rifle Kit. It cost $179.95. I spent very close to 600 hours building and finishing that gun. It came out very nice and had many details that were above the norm. I got many complements on the project including one from an old time gunsmith that stated it was the best looking Hawken He'd ever seen.

I shot it a few times but hated the cleanup, which after having a bunch of rust come out of the barrel,,, revealed that I had not been doing very well.

Had about $250 in the gun out of pocket and I sold it for $350. This meant that in total my labor was worth $100. $100/600 hours works out to about .16 cents per hour.

This is when I decided I would not become a gunsmith, and try to make a living doing it!

Instead I have fun, and sometimes you just can't put a $value on fun. If you do it is no longer fun.

Randy

[cwheel]

Sure would like to see a few reviews of the New production High Standard mags for the HD. Looks like they are going in the $50 range, twice the price of the Triple K mags. I already have $100 into 4 Triple K mags that are junk, don't want to add to that pile unless there is some quality in the new High Standard mags. Don't mind paying the price, just don't want to end up holding a pile of junk again.
Chris

[fatelk]

Instead I have fun, and sometimes you just can't put a $value on fun. If you do it is no longer fun.
Isn't that the truth! My friend originally offered to pay me to work on this for him. I flatly refused. For one, I certainly wouldn't charge a friend who's helped me a lot over the decades. For another, there's no way this old pistol would remotely be worth fixing if I charged even a fraction of what my time might be worth. And third, I'm not a gunsmith. There's no way I'm going to call my tinkering "gunsmithing" and charge someone for it!

To a degree it's been a fun project, and I've learned from it. One of the things I've learned is when to perhaps turn a project down :). Some parts of any given project are interesting, and other parts down right tedious (What was I thinking?!). When it's done, looks good and works right, then it'll be worth it.

As to the old Triple K magazine I have; it's working pretty good now. I've shot two or three hundred rounds through it now and only occasionally is there a malfunction because of the mag, and it's always a round that jams the bullet up into the top edge of the chamber; not sure what that means. Once I get the misfire thing figured out I'll take it back to him, and he can decide if he wants to order another magazine or not. For what it's worth, in all my research I did read a review somewhere that Triple K had really stepped up their quality on their HD magazines as of late. One guy online somewhere had reported that he had gotten a couple new ones that worked perfectly. I'd like to hear it from more than one anonymous online review before putting much stock in that, though.

I've tried everything to figure out the misfires, and have come to the conclusion that the Numrich springs are just wrong, too weak. With one fitted to the absolute maximum length, or a shorter one with spacers, the best it would do was maybe 5% misfires, and they would always go off on the second strike. I checked the firing pin every which way, and every other thought or suggestion here. Thank you everyone, by the way. I have really appreciated all the help here on this project. You all really are awesome!

I currently have a spring on order from High Standard. Hopefully it's right.

[fatelk]

Beware of Numrich replacement springs. The spring came in from High Standard and the wire diameter measured the same as the original, .045", compared to the weak Numrich spring at .040".

I just got back from the range. I fired a total of 100 rounds through it, shooting nice little silver-dollar sized groups at 50' (yes, I know that's too close, and not very good by some of you all's standards, but hey- it's pretty good for me.)

The best part is only 2 malfunctions out of 100 rounds. I shot 70 rounds of Rem. "Golden Bullet" bulk pack: one misfire and one jam. Then 30 rounds of 30 year old Blazer: zero malfunctions. I think that's about as good as it's going to get. Actually, I feel pretty darn good about it. :)

[W.R.Buchanan]

Fat Elk: I had a similar problem with my Springfield M2 shaving lead off the bullets as they were chambered and some would simply dig in an hang up.

What I did was to polish the chamber mouth with 600 grit W/D Sandpaper and break that edge so it isn't dead sharp. A very small radius, all it needs is about .010, on that edge will fix that problem permanently.

Randy

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The thickness of the wire, the number of coils and the nature and tempering of the metal all have some bearing on the strength of the spring. So can the way the end is finished off. If the end bears only one one side, it can throw the side of the spring against its tunnel. This makes it about as hard to assess as anything else with four variables.

The best way to compare springs, if you have the old one in good condition, is to put them end to end in a vice, with a piece of rod to keep them in alignment. Squeeze them together, and if one shortens more than the other, it is weaker. So checking the power of a spring is easy if you have the old one in good condition... Some fault of logic there, surely.

You can flatten off the end of a cut coilspring just like the factory by grinding it on a slightly blunt sanding belt or grinding wheel, so that the frictional heat draws the temper.

[fatelk]

The Numrich spring was noticeably weaker than the replacement from High Standard. The HS spring fit just as it came, but the Numrich spring had to be shortened some to physically fit where it needed to go. Even then it still has several more coils than the HS spring. Compressing them in my hand I could feel it was weaker. The proof was in the pudding, though: plenty of misfires with the Numrich spring, and none with the HS spring (nothing else changed). I had tried everything with the Numrich spring, including grinding the ends.

Well, there was one misfire with the new spring, but out of 100 rounds of "golden bullet" bulk ammo, I think that's more easily attributable to the ammo than the gun.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Beware of Numrich replacement springs. The spring came in from High Standard and the wire diameter measured the same as the original, .045", compared to the weak Numrich spring at .040".

I just got back from the range. I fired a total of 100 rounds through it, shooting nice little silver-dollar sized groups at 50' (yes, I know that's too close, and not very good by some of you all's standards, but hey- it's pretty good for me.)

The best part is only 2 malfunctions out of 100 rounds. I shot 70 rounds of Rem. "Golden Bullet" bulk pack: one misfire and one jam. Then 30 rounds of 30 year old Blazer: zero malfunctions. I think that's about as good as it's going to get. Actually, I feel pretty darn good about it. :)

Plenty of reputable automatic .22s might do that straight from the box, and yet if it is going to happen, it will happen at the worst of possible moments. If you think you have eliminated spring weakness and undue friction, the misfires must be a matter of the firing-pin not being permitted to crush the primer composition enough.

It could be, as I said above, that the edge of the chamber is indented by the firing-pin. A total fix for this is quite a big job. But it might be that the edge has been indented into the chamber space. Brownells used to have a tool to deal with this, but it is easy to make. It was a hardened steel rod which just fits the chamber, with one side grooved. You just put it into the chamber with the burred edge sliding up that groove, then turn it, ironing the burr into the chamber wall where it belongs. This might usefully increase the indentation.

The other possibility I didn't think of above, is that something about the firing-pin is restricting the extent to which it can sink into the case rim. Maybe someone sharpened up the pin but sharpened it too much, found it punctured the rim, bluntened it but bluntened it too much... You could apply some wax or modeling clay to make a dummy case-head, and see how deeply the firing-pin sinks in. If it is no deeper than it sinks into hard brass, something needs to be adjusted.

[fatelk]

The dent in the edge of the chamber is a good thing to check. I have seen that before. A friend had a .22 rifle once that was dented so bad it was hard to get the empty out of the chamber.

This one isn't dented at all, not even a little. The firing pin protrusion and shape look about perfect to me. One misfire out of a hundred with cheap bulk ammo doesn't bother me at all at this point. That kind of percentage isn't bad with that ammo in any of my .22s. I think I'm going to call this one done.

Thanks again to every one for all the tips and ideas. I appreciate everything; it turned out great!

[johnson1942]

love high standard semi autos. the most accurate hand gun i ever had was a high standard supermatic trophy.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Isn't that the truth! My friend originally offered to pay me to work on this for him. I flatly refused. For one, I certainly wouldn't charge a friend who's helped me a lot over the decades. For another, there's no way this old pistol would remotely be worth fixing if I charged even a fraction of what my time might be worth. And third, I'm not a gunsmith. There's no way I'm going to call my tinkering "gunsmithing" and charge someone for it!


There is a story about two well-to-do South African friends. One day the Boer goes around to the "Englishman's" house and finds him coming hot, sweaty and exhausted from the tennis court. "Hey man," he says, "can't you pay a kaffir to do that for you?" Most of the things everybody does for recreation wouldn't stand up to rational economic assessment.

Here is the trigger-guard I carved from the solid with my bare hands, for a model of 1969 Spirlet revolver. Even that, though laborious, didn't require as much thought and measurement as creating a properly timed SA/DA hammer from empty space. But anyone trying to argue an economic validity for the exercise needs to have his head examined, and is in a fair way to getting it.

130952

[Geezer in NH]

Sure would like to see a few reviews of the New production High Standard mags for the HD. Looks like they are going in the $50 range, twice the price of the Triple K mags. I already have $100 into 4 Triple K mags that are junk, don't want to add to that pile unless there is some quality in the new High Standard mags. Don't mind paying the price, just don't want to end up holding a pile of junk again.
Chris
The 2 I have from them work great way better than the cheaper alternative did.

Also got parts that none have for a late model of the original company. They are a good company but a phone call works much easier than the web site.